514 on the dyno

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/26/11 07:36 PM

BSFC is about .420 at peak HP for all of the intakes. Seems a little low but I haven't really spent much time thinking about it. It is easy for those little sensors to get messed up and it is expensive to calibrate them so I don't really worry about it much. I don't worry about fuel economy with this engine, we just fill the tank up with race gas when it gets low.

I haven't played with coolant temp yet. I know that other engine builders drop the coolant temp on the dyno to add power. So far I have just been runnning a conservative temp in the cooling tower. There is a chunk of power just sitting on the table there but I'm more interested in exploring the oil pan/pump/vacuum issue at the moment. Running the engine cold adds risk which I don't want to take right now.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/26/11 07:39 PM

after reading this whole thread again, i have to admit that i find it hard to quantify the dyno numbers based on the cylinder head flow and HUGE lack of information in other area's.
nowhere have i seen mentioned even what the lobe lift is on the camshaft, nor any of the important data from the dyno.
assuming just for a moment that the dry sump pump takes a few less HP to run than a conventional pump, how much realistic gain can you imagine there really is? whatever it might be, it's not likely double digit numbers. same goes for the belt drive distributor.
the only real significant change from most combos similar to this one would be the jesel rockers and the much higher lift ratio. obviously that could be worth a lot, depending on the cam being used.
the motor certainly looks pretty and the custom made brackets look really nice, so in that regard it's a teriffic advertisement for those parts, as well as a few others.
the skeptical side of me believes that any time a magazine contributor is involved in these dyno tests, the numbers always appear to be considerably higher than what would be thought of as "normal" for a particular combination. in this case it's hard to judge simply because of the lack of, and apparently the decision not to reveal any real meaningful data. it's just my opinion, but i find that to be a real shame, as well as very suspect.
now, even though it's not what some would consider politically correct, i'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the hp numbers are inflated by around 90-100 horses. ironically it wasn't that many months ago when i said the same thing about a couple of other combo's from a member here. even more ironic is that when those engines got tested on a properly calibrated superflow dyno (instead of the typically happy Stuska's) they were down near 100 HP, almost exactly as i had predicted. (no, i'm not patting myself on the back either). some here will remember the apology that person posted to me, albeit totally unnecessary.
in the end, it doesn't matter what i, or anyone else thinks. HP claims sells motors, but the track MPH will be the final test. i look forward to seeing those results. hopefully Andy has stumbled on (and worked hard to find) a perfect combination that simply blows away anything like it in dramatic fashion. unfortunately my gut tells me no, but i hope i'm proven wrong.
the opinions expressed here are mine, should anyone disagree, i'll certainly understand, so go ahead and flame away if you feel you must.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/26/11 07:43 PM

I'm thinking there is a magazine article attached to this build ???

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/26/11 07:46 PM

Quote:

Again, I think Andy eluded to the Dry-sump and jesel valvetrain moving the HP up considerably, I've noticed my valvetrain is a lot more stable at 6500+ using the 1 piece Billet Block rocker stands instead of the cast-in pedestals, I think that could be 15-20hp right there alone, let alone a full-tilt State of the art Jesel system

The Jesel and dry sump picked up power last year quite a bit. The Jones cam was another significant step up last year. This year we upgraded to the bigger bore size, the thicker block, better rings, gas ported pistons, etc. That picked the power up another 40 hp or so over last year's motor.

I have more than 100 dyno pulls on this basic combination so we're starting to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. There are lots of other guys out there who have a lot more development time into their motors and are making a lot more power. I'm pretty sure if I turned this motor over to a professional shop they could find another 100 hp without too much effort. It is $500 a day for dyno testing so I can't afford to test very often. Besides, I have to show up at work on a regular basis as well as do all the chores my wife sends my way.

Posted By: FastmOp

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/26/11 08:23 PM

As long as you leave the dyno set up the same for each test it don't matter what the numbers are. The diffrences will still show up and should be real world numbers.

Wile the other guys want the dyno info I'd just like to see a few pics of the plugs to see how it's burnin

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/26/11 08:40 PM

Quote:

...was the 337 OOTB or ported? As I mentioned in another post the 'as delivered' 337 ports are only about 1/2 way between a 906 and a real Maxie, the 337 does have excellent taper from the plenum as delived though.

I get the blame for the '337. I matched it to the gaskets Mopar sent with it and it was a bit of work. I had planned to match it to my heads (Stg VI) but it turned out that my heads were much closer to MW than I thought and it was just easier to match everything to the gaskets.

I also shortened a Dart 2" 4150-4500 adapter and built-in about 5 degrees of carburetor angle so it would fit my car better. Before the shortening process the plenum match was better than could be expected but afterward much blending was needed. The modified adapter is mounted to the manifold with 4 1/4" socket head screws. I don't think I've ever run a MP casting as out of the box.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/27/11 01:22 PM

Quote:

The Jesel and dry sump picked up power last year quite a bit. The Jones cam was another significant step up last year. This year we upgraded to the bigger bore size, the thicker block, better rings, gas ported pistons, etc. That picked the power up another 40 hp or so over last year's motor.

I have more than 100 dyno pulls on this basic combination ...

And just for comparison with these heads,
Back when Andy ran the stock block (smaller bore) with the same heads, the solid flat tappet cam that I run (Comp MM305), plain 1.5 rockers, etc.; it made right about what I think I am making:

738 hp at 6400
641 ft-lb at 5500

440 block, 4.250" stroke, 505 CID --Jim--> 400, 4.250", 511 CID
Indy EZ ported by MCH (same heads), 13.5 CR --Jim--> 440-1, 355 cfm, 368@0.800", 13.5 CR
Standard oil pan and oiling --Jim--> Moroso 8qt standard
Comp MM305S-10: 279/287 at 0.050", 0.650/0.630" lift, 110 LSA
Indy 440-2 intake with 4500 adapter --Jim--> I have run both 400-2 and 400-3
1050 Carb
2x32 headers --Jim--> 2-1/8 x 32

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/27/11 06:11 PM

Yep, that is a pretty good baseline comparison. The last 100 hp cost me about $10,000! But you could get a big chunk of it with the Jesel setup and the roller cam if you wanted. If you were local I'd loan you the 514 so you could make some 8 second passes.

Posted By: 520DUSTER

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/28/11 12:56 AM

520 RB
CN dominator
indy intake
Porter prepped EZ CNC 295s
650 solid roller 270 @ 50
10.85-1 with 175psi cranking compression
2 inch CPPA headers
657 hp @ 6000 rpm

Boy did I do something wrong.
Is the valve train and oil system worth that much power ?

Posted By: greendart408

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/28/11 01:06 AM

I wasnt there to see Andy dyno the 514 but, I race super dirt late models in the pacific northwest and run a sb2.2 alum. 415ci. that came from a very reputable engine builder from back east that claims it to have made 850hp. We installed it on the dyno that Andy uses and it made 762hp. There are alot of alum dirt late model motors built at this shop and most make 700 to 730hp in 430ci. arrangement. These motors will run with any dirt late model motors anywhere and alot of those supposedly make over 800hp dyno'd hp. Im posting this to verify what I know about this dyno and it is known locally to be stingy compared to other known ones in the area. Im not trying to

the pot. Just giving my opinion of the dyno.

Posted By: 2QUICK4U

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/28/11 02:22 AM

NICE NUMBERS. NOT TO HIJACK, IF ANYONE LOOKING FOR A 519 LOW DECK MAKING A 842 HP,LOOK AT MY AD UNDER RACING PARTS. COMPLETE MOTOR AND TRANS AND CONVERTER.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/28/11 03:07 AM

I remember that SB2.2 motor. That was a very cool engine that loved to rev. You guys were pushing the limits of the dyno when you tested it. They have now installed a larger water pump and a new load cell. (This 514 busted their old load cell) Next time you have that SB2.2 freshened up the dyno will be able to handle it.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/28/11 06:37 PM

Quote:

520 RB
CN dominator
indy intake
Porter prepped EZ CNC 295s
650 solid roller 270 @ 50
10.85-1 with 175psi cranking compression
2 inch CPPA headers
657 hp @ 6000 rpm

Boy did I do something wrong.
Is the valve train and oil system worth that much power ?

IMO you didn't do anything "wrong"... except make something of an apples-to-oranges comparison because of how much more serious Andy's engine is. Just off the top of my head I can see he's gone to the next level in terms of CR, cam & valve train aggressiveness, oil system, "real" race headers, etc. Yours is a nice streetable pump-gas combination... his isn't.

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 01:56 AM

I was asked by an outside source today to take look @ this post & see what I thought... so here goes...

I guess biggest thing I took away from it, is I don't get the lack of understanding of the power #'s?

1.61 HP/INCH
1.39 TQ/INCH
2.3 HP/CFM

What exactly am I missing that is "out of line" here? Those #'s are "unbelievable"? Seem pretty reasonable to me for the combo...

Looks pretty much what I'd expect out of a combo like that.

Where is the power being made? If you have to ask that, then you probably don't understand how a race engine works. Killer motors don't make big #'s based on any 1 thing... it's a large # of small things that all add up... Find 5 HP in 10 different places that the other guy has'nt looked @, & you've got 50 HP more than the next.

Race block (ring seal)
Proper machine work, again, ring seal with hone job, proper valve job, concentricity on seats/valves, proper lifter bore geometry etc. all contribute in small ways to power production. Does it make 50 more HP? NO... 3-5 here/there? For sure.
Flat top piston VS: having to run a Dome to get the 12.5:1. Better flame travel etc. +HP
Gas ported custom pistons... he mentioned .043" ring pack, so power there... probably has a Napiere 2nd & a fairly light oil ring... more "free" power...Knowing Diamond, I'd guess it's a Total Seal ring set... 11 LB oil ring, probably 3 MM. Lack of friction = increased HP.
Dry sump oil pan/tank/pump... power there, certainly in windage & as well as pump frictional losses.
Modern CNC EZ heads.... Would be interesting to know intake valve size, although it does'nt really matter, 2.19 or 2.25, I could see either one putting up these #'s on that shortblock without issue. I've made 810 HP with a 2.15" valve before so... I don't think he is running out of curtain area
12.5:1 compression, not excessively high, but certainly enough to get job done on gasoline. 14:1 with a dome on piston probably would have cost power.
It has a Jones cam which is probably fairly aggressive ramp, & then the 1.85/1.7 Rockers make sure that the valvetrain actuation, especially the all important intake side, is extremely fast no matter what lobe he has on it, & knowing Jones, I'm sure it ain't a slouch. Valvetrain speed is major contributor to making big power #'s... Alot of the power is in the cam & rocker ratio, more so than the valvetrain being more "stable" IMO, although having your valvetran as stable as possible with a high $ jesel rocker stand is never a bad idea.
If the cam is as aggressive as I suspect it is, this would probably not be a great weekend "bracket motor" from a valvetrain reliability standpoint but makes for great #'s on dyno. (think Enginemasters type build)
Dyno headers.... take a look @ them, straight out for about 8-10"... down & back. There is certainly power there that you won't see in the car... but help add up on the dyno.
& I'll guess he has other things going on in the valvetrain like a large diameter, thick wall pushrod etc which also will add to the power #'s.

It's just all those little "tricks" that add up to making something above & beyond the "norm" You certainly don't see too many big inch EZ head motors with that level of attention to detail & good parts used around them. So to say this motor is way off base, is well... off base IMO

The only thing I think I saw Andy post in this entire post that was out of line was the statement about a professional engine builder could find another 100 HP out of it. Now that would be a serious stretch.... EZ heads do have a limit somewhere, although.... the big offset rocker version is essentially a 440-1 with a smaller/lower EX port & EX port on these BB Mopars is overrated as far as how big you "need" IMO most are too big, both valve size & port size, for what they are being ran on.... I don't see 930 HP on a 514 with a set like the ones he has. I don't think he is giving himself enough credit for what he has here. Very stout piece with some really good high end parts on/in it & over 100 dyno pulls worth of data to learn off of. Not too many drag guys short of a S/S or Comp racer will put anywhere near 100 pulls on same combo looking for power.

The dyno might be 15-20 HP high @ most IMO. But I'm sure I could find some that put up bigger #'s, & I'm sure I can find some that would put up lower #'s. Looks like Andy is using it the correct way though as a tuning too & just trying to compare what intake A does VS intake B etc.

Just my

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 03:23 AM

Hi Ryan,

Good write up, you obviously have been around the block a few times with these types of motors.

My 100 hp comment comes from the tricks I've seen over the years. Vacuum pump, 100 degree coolant, more compression, additional head porting, ported intake manifold, more agressive cam, better oil pan, Spintron testing, aluminum rods, bigger lifters, lower oil pressure, lightweight oil, etc.

I'm pretty sure a Super Stock engine builder would find a bunch of power that I've left on the table. Of course the cost would go up. I have about $22,000 in the motor at the moment while a Super Stock version of this same combination with all the tricks would probably be $45,000 or so?

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 03:40 AM

Quote:

Hi Ryan,

Good write up, you obviously have been around the block a few times with these types of motors.

My 100 hp comment comes from the tricks I've seen over the years. Vacuum pump, 100 degree coolant, more compression, additional head porting, ported intake manifold, more agressive cam, better oil pan, Spintron testing, aluminum rods, bigger lifters, lower oil pressure, lightweight oil, etc.

I'm pretty sure a Super Stock engine builder would find a bunch of power that I've left on the table. Of course the cost would go up. I have about $22,000 in the motor at the moment while a Super Stock version of this same combination with all the tricks would probably be $45,000 or so?

I still don't think you'd find another 100 HP

@ that level 100 HP takes alot. There is probably another 50 in it if you went crazy (but who builds a $45K EZ head motor LOL). I have read that similar argument on here before about W5 motors, what is most HP theoretically possible etc if you spent $50K on every possible trick/welding up heads into completely different piece etc. Well who cares? No one would ever spend that kind of coin to build one... unless they have mental problems. I like to see reality, not "theories" Everyone's got a theory, very few actually build stuff & actually prove/disprove them. I give you Kudo's especially if you're paying $500 a pop for dyno time everytime you put that thing on... that takes some dedication. & since you are a freelance mag writer I know you are not being bankrolled for that dyno time like some on here may think.

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 04:35 AM

Quote:

...
Looks pretty much what I'd expect out of a combo like that.

Thanks for your input Ryan, it helps verify that my custom '337 intake has the potential the dyno showed.
While swapping (HOT!) intakes I had a chance to peer down the ports and it looked to me like there was plenty of material that could be removed by a determined porter. How much more flow potential there is I can't say. The ports didn't look big at all to me.
Some other observations: the Super Victor looked to be about the same height as the 440-2, which is 6.75" tall I believe. Edelbrock still hasn't published this info. The Eddy ports looked noticeably smaller in CA than the Indy, and looked closer to the '337 with the naked eye. The eddy did have higher ports that were shaped very much like the Indy. All tests were run with a tall spacer, 2.5"? that probably added a lot to the plenum volume. This is in addition to the ~ 1" spacer/adapter on the '337.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 04:58 AM

Quote:

after reading this whole thread again, i have to admit that i find it hard to quantify the dyno numbers based on the cylinder head flow and HUGE lack of information in other area's.
nowhere have i seen mentioned even what the lobe lift is on the camshaft, nor any of the important data from the dyno.
assuming just for a moment that the dry sump pump takes a few less HP to run than a conventional pump, how much realistic gain can you imagine there really is? whatever it might be, it's not likely double digit numbers. same goes for the belt drive distributor.
the only real significant change from most combos similar to this one would be the jesel rockers and the much higher lift ratio. obviously that could be worth a lot, depending on the cam being used.
the motor certainly looks pretty and the custom made brackets look really nice, so in that regard it's a teriffic advertisement for those parts, as well as a few others.
the skeptical side of me believes that any time a magazine contributor is involved in these dyno tests, the numbers always appear to be considerably higher than what would be thought of as "normal" for a particular combination. in this case it's hard to judge simply because of the lack of, and apparently the decision not to reveal any real meaningful data. it's just my opinion, but i find that to be a real shame, as well as very suspect.
now, even though it's not what some would consider politically correct, i'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the hp numbers are inflated by around 90-100 horses. ironically it wasn't that many months ago when i said the same thing about a couple of other combo's from a member here. even more ironic is that when those engines got tested on a properly calibrated superflow dyno (instead of the typically happy Stuska's) they were down near 100 HP, almost exactly as i had predicted. (no, i'm not patting myself on the back either). some here will remember the apology that person posted to me, albeit totally unnecessary.
in the end, it doesn't matter what i, or anyone else thinks. HP claims sells motors, but the track MPH will be the final test. i look forward to seeing those results. hopefully Andy has stumbled on (and worked hard to find) a perfect combination that simply blows away anything like it in dramatic fashion. unfortunately my gut tells me no, but i hope i'm proven wrong.
the opinions expressed here are mine, should anyone disagree, i'll certainly understand, so go ahead and flame away if you feel you must.

Not trying to hijack Andys thread, the new Studka dyno operator had not calibrated that dyno when I ran my 527 motor on it, once that dyno had been calibrated my 527 motor made within 5 HP the second time on it with the same setup as I ran on the DTS dyno 200 miles away and 1800 ft. higher elevation in Klamath Falls, OR. Klamath is right at 4300 ft. at the dyno shop and the Studka is right at 2500 Ft. in Madras, ORegon

The three times I have treid to use a Super Flow engine dyno we ended up breaking it

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 06:17 AM

Andy, any idea why that 440-3x fell off on the top end?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/01/11 08:35 AM

Quote:

Andy, any idea why that 440-3x fell off on the top end?

The 440-3X was down across the board by a small amount. My guess is that the runners are too big for this particular engine. That intake probably works a lot better on the bigger motors that it was designed for.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 06:29 AM

Where is Gorski? He usually chimes in on these threads when I use his wires. Speaking of that, I need to order up a custom coil wire so I can replace the MSD coil wire that I have on there now. Then it will be all Firecore. These are the 8.5 mm Firecore wires and they've been working great. Nobody else made a set of wires that fit a belt drive distributor.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 04:14 PM

Quote:

i still stand by my other post here. there is so little actual info about the 514 it's almost as if it was written that way on purpose.
why not show some actual data? personally i wouldn't car if it made 600 hp or 1100 hp. you don't need to do it to prove anything, but when someone throws out HP and Torque numbers it sure would be nice to see the dyno data so people can read, absorb and learn from it.

X2.....

I've asked something like 6 TIMES and still no answer to why there's no dyno sheet so we can check out things like BSFC numbers and the only reply so far has been "It is easy for those little sensors to get messed up and it is expensive to calibrate them so I don't really worry about it much. I don't worry about fuel economy with this engine, we just fill the tank up with race gas when it gets low."

It's not about fuel economy.....

it's about how effecient that motor is (which it, obviously, takes a pretty effecient motor to make that much HP with the parts it has).....AND if it's easy for "those little sensors to get messed up", maybe the little sensor that spits out how much HP it's making is "messed up".....

I'll say it again by quoting myself;

Quote:

Am I the only one that thinks Andy is ONE BAD-AZZ engine builder.....or that dyno is about 100HP HAPPY??????........ ......It'd be interesting to actually see some real proof.....

That's a nice way of giving him the benefit of the doubt......

Andy, POINT BLANK, again......I'm assuming there are motors out there that have been on that dyno with comparable numbers that have actually been raced, so it'd be interesting to find out what MPH they run and at what weight?????

If you can't come up with any, then it'd be great if you'd stop posting max HP numbers and focus more on just HP differences between the parts you change, which is still interesting.......

Just my opinion and a few, very simple, questions.......

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 05:25 PM

Where the dyno numbers (to me) are particularly interesting is, for example...where in the curve does the Jesel rocker gear start picking up the TQ/HP....is it at a (street useable) 4000rpm or is is only in the 5200 and up area?

This is what is useful to the guys that are trying to learn and apply things...it's sort of like Engine Masters magazine....they don't post dyno numbers for the contests or any useful tech....so what the heck is the point for gearheads (like ourselves) to buy a magaizine (supposedly produced and geared toward appealling to the more tech-saavy reader) if it doesn't tell us anything of use? I think sponsors of the magazines put pressure onthe editors to dumb down the content compared to years past...the idea is to promote the builders and the parts they sell and keep the "sausage" (how to actually do it) a "Black Magic" mystery.....they're missing the boat and I see a direct correlation between the progressive lack of technical content in magazines to the lack of PAGES those magazines now contain

There are thicker hand-outs inthe Sunday paper than there are in most magazines today, but that's O/T though somehow a bit related to the point i'm trying to express.

The pay-off to Dyno time and technical analysis of the data, is after all...THE ANALYSIS! Not taking anything away from Andy, but for example, I love the posts guys like Ryan and Fast68 do for us, I'd gladly pay a share of the dyno time to have access to that kind of information!

Andy, please keep it up, but also remember your audience here...As said, I would gladly be willing to kick-in a portion of dyno time (as others would I'm sure)...if the hard-core tech (that we all care most about) can come along with it.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 05:39 PM

Quote:

Where the dyno numbers (to me) are particularly interesting is, for example...where in the curve does the Jesel rocker gear start picking up the TQ/HP....is it at a (street useable) 4000rpm or is is only in the 5200 and up area?

This is what is useful to the guys that are trying to learn and apply things...it's sort of like Engine Masters magazine....they don't post dyno numbers for the contests or any useful tech....so what the heck is the point for gearheads (like ourselves) to buy a magaizine (supposedly produced and geared toward appealling to the more tech-saavy reader) if it doesn't tell us anything of use? I think sponsors of the magazines put pressure onthe editors to dumb down the content compared to years past...the idea is to promote the builders and the parts they sell and keep the "sausage" (how to actually do it) a "Black Magic" mystery.....they're missing the boat and I see a direct correlation between the progressive lack of technical content in magazines to the lack of PAGES those magazines now contain There are thicker hand-outs inthe Sunday paper than there are in most magazines today, but that's O/T though somehow a bit related to the point i'm trying to express.

The pay-off to Dyno time and technical analysis of the data, is after all...THE ANALYSIS! Not taking anything away from Andy, but for example, I love the posts guys like Ryan and Fast68 do for us, I'd gladly pay a share of the dyno time to have access to that kind of information!

Andy, please keep it up, but also remember your audience here...As said, I would gladly be willing to kick-in a portion of dyno time (as others would I'm sure)...if the hard-core tech (that we all care most about) can come along with it.

How about paying for some of my dyno time

I have two motors that have beed dyno tested, one pump gas 518 and one race gas 527 C.I bracket motor that I have switched heads on between the two. SR with stock Indy valve sizes and 440-1 with 2.25 intakes

I switched 440-1 from the 518 to the 527 and SR onto the 518 pump gas motor from the 527 bracket motor

$500.00 dollars a day for dyno time in Kalmath Falls, OR on a DTS and the same amount per day in Madras, OR on a Studka that is now calibrated

All assistance gracefully accepted

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 05:44 PM

Quote:

How about paying for some of my dyno time I have two motors that have beed dyno tested, one pump gas 518 and one race gas 527 C.I bracket motor that I have switched heads on between the two. SR with stock Indy valve sizes and 440-1 with 2.25 intakes I switched 440-1 from the 518 to the 527 and SR onto the 518 pump gas motor from the 527 bracket motor $500.00 dollars a day for dyno time in Kalmath Falls, OR on a DTS and the same amount per day in Madras, OR on a Studka that is now calibrated All assistance gracefully accepted

I'm your Huckleberry!

Now let's see who else will pony up...I'm sure a few others will

The "catch" is if you can't get enough 'contributors' to at least knock your cut of the dyno time in 1/2 (1/2 or $250 out of pocket would be pretty reasonable, right?) you only PM or E-mail the data to those who kicked-in

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 05:49 PM

Quote:

I'm your Huckleberry!

Now let's see who else will pony up...I'm sure a few others will

The "catch" is if you can't get enough 'contributors' to at least knock your cut of the dyno time in 1/2 (250 out of pocket would be pretty reasonable, right?) you only PM or E-mail the data to those who kicked-in

If I was to get half I would share that information like all of those that helped wanted me to

Some help, especially in this economy being retired, is way better than none

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 05:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm your Huckleberry!

Now let's see who else will pony up...I'm sure a few others will

The "catch" is if you can't get enough 'contributors' to at least knock your cut of the dyno time in 1/2 (250 out of pocket would be pretty reasonable, right?) you only PM or E-mail the data to those who kicked-in

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I was to get half I would share that information like all of those that helped wanted me to Some help, especially in this economy being retired, is way better than none

PM sent...Check or PayPal?

Now let's see who else is in...

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/06/11 07:09 PM

Amen, Mr. Cab and I apologize (especially to my buddy Andy) for going O/T.

I have no doubt whatsoever the motor does everything that Andy sadi it does, the gearhead and Tech-junkie that I am can't help but wonder where and when in the powerband (specifically) the power comes from versus a more standard type build...that's all

I will say that I'm satisfied that above 5000 or so valvetrain stability really comes into play, to the point where personally I wouldn't build a 650-ish HP motor without something more stable than the OEM style cast-in pedestals....especially with a solid roller type spring!!

I'd love to install an industrial type multi axis motion transducer into one of those cast aluminum pedestals (argualbly not even as strong as the oem cast iron) just to see how much shakin' is going on

. I can't afford the Jesel stuff for a street build, but again the One-piece billet block (Race W2 style) pedestals really seem to help.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/15/11 07:27 AM

Quote:

As long as you leave the dyno set up the same for each test it don't matter what the numbers are. The diffrences will still show up and should be real world numbers.

Wile the other guys want the dyno info I'd just like to see a few pics of the plugs to see how it's burnin

Here is a picture of a plug for you. These plugs have about 20 dyno pulls on them at 800+ hp.

Attached picture 6530916-Plug.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/20/11 06:30 AM

I started to pull the engine down to make a few changes. These Superformance intake gaskets work like a champ. We did a bunch of intake swaps on the dyno and the gaskets still look like new.

Attached picture 6539348-valley.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/05/11 05:35 AM

My new 5 stage R4 pump showed up the other day from Peterson. I need to fabricate a mount for it and then we can get back on the dyno. I'm pretty sure there is another 20 to 30 hp in the oil system once we get things sorted out. The old three stage in the background is the pump that I have been using.

Attached picture 6618176-R4.jpg

Posted By: Diablo

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/05/11 02:22 PM

Where are you gonna put all the suction lines? Run all four in the pan or???

Nice build

Posted By: Rodney

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/05/11 03:09 PM

I would consider it research, and development to please the owner of The Stuska Dyno and charge you {PM sent} to test this engine you are building.
Now that I'm back on my feet I am available to offer what I can.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/05/11 08:25 PM

Yes, the pan has four scavange sections so the pump will just pull from there.

Rodney, I'd like to bring the 514 over for some dyno testing later this year. It would be fun to do that although it is a bunch of work getting an engine like this set up at a different shop.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/05/11 08:48 PM

Quote:

I wasnt there to see Andy dyno the 514 but, I race super dirt late models in the pacific northwest and run a sb2.2 alum. 415ci. that came from a very reputable engine builder from back east that claims it to have made 850hp. We installed it on the dyno that Andy uses and it made 762hp. There are alot of alum dirt late model motors built at this shop and most make 700 to 730hp in 430ci. arrangement. These motors will run with any dirt late model motors anywhere and alot of those supposedly make over 800hp dyno'd hp. Im posting this to verify what I know about this dyno and it is known locally to be stingy compared to other known ones in the area. Im not trying to the pot. Just giving my opinion of the dyno.

a friend of mine just dynoed a sb2 and it made 796...(358CI)

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 03:51 AM

I worked up a prototype mount for the R4 pump. I decided to go off the timing cover for this mount since it seemed to line up a little better.

Attached picture 6668677-R4mount.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 03:53 AM

I also designed up a tapered spacer to work with the Wilson shear plate. We'll see how it works during the next dyno session.

Attached picture 6668686-Tapered.jpg

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 04:01 AM

Nice whittelin' as usual!

Keith

Posted By: DavidDean

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 04:51 AM

WOW!! Great post Thanks!!

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 03:59 PM

Here is what the spacer looks like with the shear plate installed.

Attached picture 6669267-ShearW.jpg

Posted By: cudarex

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 04:11 PM

Nice work Andy, as usual.

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 05:15 PM

Put a video camera in that plenum and let's see how it all really works.

Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 08:49 PM

Quote:

Here is what the spacer looks like with the shear plate installed.

I would

think u would need a pretty tall hood to fit the shear plate/spacer under.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/06/11 11:32 PM

Yep, that combo isn't going to fit under a flat hood.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/07/11 02:07 AM

Andy,Any idea if the shear plates increase airflow? Or is it just improved atomization? I'm curious if they would help a constant flow injected combo go fast by helping airflow only.

Posted By: 68shifter

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/07/11 03:04 AM

Nice build!
Any chance of running it once without the spacer? You've done such a great intake comparison just has me wondering on the spacer as I hear all sorts of numbers for what they are worth.
What do you think?
Thanks again, keep up the good work!

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/07/11 05:26 AM

No, I don't think I'd bother running without any spacer at all. That usually just kills the power.

I'm more interested in figuring out the difference between an open spacer and the hour glass shape that mates up with the Super Victor plenum. I had to have some spacers custom built with the hour glass shape because nobody sells that shape. I've used open spacers in the past with good results but I think the hour glass shape will pick up even more power.

It will be interesting to see if the extra height of these spacers helps or hurts the power. It will also be interesting to see if the different shear plates make any difference. I currently have three brands of shear plates to try out.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/07/11 05:30 AM

Quote:

Andy,Any idea if the shear plates increase airflow? Or is it just improved atomization? I'm curious if they would help a constant flow injected combo go fast by helping airflow only.

I'm actually not sure what the shear plates are supposed to do. I've talked to a bunch of different people and they all give me different answers. Some say it is anti-reversion, others claim that the shear lip helps with atomization. I've done some shear plate testing before without seeing any power difference so I'm not convinced that they even work on a low rpm motor like this one. Maybe I'll learn some more during the next dyno session.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/07/11 11:35 AM

If my uneducated thinking is correct, With too little plenum volume and/or too small of a carb they may show airflow improvements? That would seem to be critical to some stocker applications? Fuel flow may become more consistent, improving atomization on the same trouble combos I describe?
Might be a good mag article.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/10/11 04:25 PM

I fabricated a slightly different mount for the dry sump. I'll probably end up using something like this. The double shear plate design off the Jesel cover seems to be strong enough but is fairly simple to fabricate.

Attached picture 6675959-pump.jpg

Posted By: PETE@BESTMACHINE

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/11/11 02:06 AM

That will never work in a car, has to be closer to the engine.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/11/11 02:14 AM

Different width mounts are easy to fabricate. This one fits fine on the dyno and leaves me plenty of room for the lines. If I was building a car I would most likely need to move it tighter to the block.

I did design up a new low-profile block plate for the oil inlet. My new design is about an inch shorter than the previous design.

Posted By: RT540

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/11/11 06:35 PM

I thought it would be easy to fit an autoverdi pump in a Haas chassi, but I am on my third test fit bracket, to get the AN12 fittings under the pump to fit, and still get some belt stretch working.
Interested in how much vacuum that new R4 design will give you.

Posted By: dirty magnum

Re: 514 on the dyno - 06/11/11 09:47 PM

are you going to put that thing in a car so we cane see what it will do?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/07/11 07:43 PM

I'll have the engine back on the dyno next week so we'll find out how the R4 pump works then. I also have a new Moroso vacuum pump to try out as well as some other new tricks.

Attached picture 6767886-lines.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/03/11 06:30 AM

I had it back on the dyno all of last week but nothing quite worked out right. We tried different fuels, different carbs, different carb spacers, etc. Nothing seemed to make much of a difference. I'll have to sit and think about it for a bit. Hopefully we'll figure out what the hang up is and get back to making some progress.

Attached picture 6808452-dyno.jpg

Posted By: cudadon

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/03/11 03:21 PM

Quote:

I also designed up a tapered spacer to work with the Wilson shear plate. We'll see how it works during the next dyno session.

That spacer looks nice. Would that design work on the Indy cloverleaf openings (400-3)?
Thanks, Don

Attached picture 6808751-wheelsup5-1-11.jpg

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/03/11 03:27 PM

Quote:

I had it back on the dyno all of last week but nothing quite worked out right. We tried different fuels, different carbs, different carb spacers, etc. Nothing seemed to make much of a difference. I'll have to sit and think about it for a bit. Hopefully we'll figure out what the hang up is and get back to making some progress.

When that many things don't make a difference,it starts to sound like a problem with the dyno. Maybe the fuel delivery(pump,filter)? If you were using the dyno ignition that is another place to look,just my

Keith

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/03/11 04:35 PM

This spacer was designed for the Super Victor which is a partial clover leaf, but it would be possible to make the same type of spacer to work with an Indy spacer. Spacers like this are expensive to make though so I doubt I'll build anymore.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/03/11 04:38 PM

Yep, that is what I'm thinking also. We changed plugs and did a quick look at everything but nothing obvious showed up. I'll just go back to basics and run a compression check, set the lash, etc. to see if we find anything. The motor sounds great and makes more than 800 hp on each pull, but it just doesn't respond to any changes.

Posted By: dirty magnum

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/04/11 05:18 PM

can you post dyno sheet so we can see

Posted By: cudadon

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/05/11 04:24 PM

Andy thanks for your honest reply.

Probably would'nt be cost per HP effective eh?
Thanks, Don

Attached picture 6811692-Launch5-22-11.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/11/11 05:58 AM

We never did find anything wrong with the engine. The oil filter is clean, lash is fine, plugs look good, compression is identical in all 8 holes, etc.

We calibrated the dyno and double checked everything we could think of. Could be that we're just at the limit of this cam and head package which is why changing things like spacers and carbs and such doesn't make much of a difference. We made about 30 dyno pulls over a period of several days and all the good runs ended up being about 820 hp.

All was not lost though, we did get to test a ton of parts and we tried a bunch of new things. Most of the new stuff didn't work out, but that is still useful information.

Attached picture 6820618-blp.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/11/11 06:03 AM

Here was one of the new ideas that we tried. We've had problems in the past trying to figure out if the water pump was working properly on the dyno. It isn't uncommon to hear about people smoking an engine on the dyno because the electic pump failed but they didn't know until too late. I think it has killed a couple of engines at the EngineMasters.

So we made up a sight window for the water line distribution block. Now we can look thru the cell window and see if the water is circulating.

Attached picture 6820621-water.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/11/11 06:06 AM

The clear valley cover also worked out pretty well. You can't really see too much when the engine is running, but it gives you a general idea of what is going on. The oil spray pattern on the window was interesting. It made me think about some oil control stuff.

Posted By: jimmysarrow

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/11/11 02:09 PM

Great idea, I have a Meizere water pump , always wanted to know how it pumped, make it a little smaller and I think a lot of people would purchase to install on there cars. Ill take one with 16 line.

Posted By: Old School

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/11/11 09:11 PM

dyno sheets?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/16/11 11:51 PM

Quote:

Great idea, I have a Meizere water pump , always wanted to know how it pumped, make it a little smaller and I think a lot of people would purchase to install on there cars. Ill take one with 16 line.

I could make these as a product but there just aren't very many guys running dual hose setups. I could make an in-line window of some sort but that would be a different product. A sight glass on the side of the water pump itself seems like a good idea.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/16/11 11:57 PM

One thing that I did figure out after the engine was back home was that my new Moroso vacuum regulator was stuck open. That was most likely the main reason that I couldn't build much pan vacuum. I had assumed that it worked okay since it was brand new, but that was a bad assumption. I ended up building a little fixture so I could test it and that showed me the problem. So that part went into the trash and I ordered a new regulator from Peterson.

Moroso used to make really good stuff but lately the parts I've gotten from them have been pretty poor. Maybe they're under new management or something.

Posted By: dirty magnum

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/18/11 01:44 AM

Quote:

We never did find anything wrong with the engine. The oil filter is clean, lash is fine, plugs look good, compression is identical in all 8 holes, etc.

We calibrated the dyno and double checked everything we could think of. Could be that we're just at the limit of this cam and head package which is why changing things like spacers and carbs and such doesn't make much of a difference. We made about 30 dyno pulls over a period of several days and all the good runs ended up being about 820 hp.

All was not lost though, we did get to test a ton of parts and we tried a bunch of new things. Most of the new stuff didn't work out, but that is still useful information.

about 820 hp or it made 820 , can you post sheets so we can see power band ect.

Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/03/11 03:22 PM

Quote:

I started to pull the engine down to make a few changes. These Superformance intake gaskets work like a champ. We did a bunch of intake swaps on the dyno and the gaskets still look like new.

Andy who makes this valley inspection plate?Is it one of yours?If so who sells it?......Thax

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/03/11 03:35 PM

The valley plates that I make usually have a SST center plate. I just replaced the SST plate with one made from polycarb. I don't sell the clear covers at the moment but I might in the future.

Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/03/11 04:23 PM

Quote:

The valley plates that I make usually have a SST center plate. I just replaced the SST plate with one made from polycarb. I don't sell the clear covers at the moment but I might in the future.

I guess i should have been a little clearer

The valley cover it self who sells it?and can i see a better pic

of it?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/03/11 09:16 PM

Valley plate with a solid cover is a standard product. AR182 and you can buy it from any of the usual dealers. Mancini Racing, Hughes Engines, Mazzolini, etc.

Attached picture 6854455-AR182b.jpg

Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/04/11 03:56 AM

Quote:

Valley plate with a solid cover is a standard product. AR182 and you can buy it from any of the usual dealers. Mancini Racing, Hughes Engines, Mazzolini, etc.

Thax.

Andy i'll check it out.

Posted By: RemCharger

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/04/11 07:35 PM

Quote:

We never did find anything wrong with the engine. The oil filter is clean, lash is fine, plugs look good, compression is identical in all 8 holes, etc.

We calibrated the dyno and double checked everything we could think of. Could be that we're just at the limit of this cam and head package which is why changing things like spacers and carbs and such doesn't make much of a difference. We made about 30 dyno pulls over a period of several days and all the good runs ended up being about 820 hp.

All was not lost though, we did get to test a ton of parts and we tried a bunch of new things. Most of the new stuff didn't work out, but that is still useful information.

If the reversion plate deals work , I'd think they would work best on an engine like mine (small cid, big heads, big flat tappet)

Your dyno#s seem in line with the 500+ motors from around here. I'm not sure why some can only make 720 with the same type of parts..... I guess the sub sea level on track testing gives one the impression that less hp can net the same ets..meaning other people are on happy

dynos.
Would you ever try some 440 -1s on there?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/04/11 08:01 PM

I think I'll just keep beating on the EZ heads to see if I can hit the 900 hp mark. Just seems like an interesting challenge.

The intake manifold went to Wilson for porting and Charlie is building a new dry sump pan that will be deeper and wider. Dwayne has the engine specs so we'll see what he suggests for a cam. I should have the engine back on the dyno around the end of the year. I might put some new pistons in it to get the compression up. Right now it is only 12.5 which is really too low to make good power. I probably need to bump it up to 15:1 so the engine will work better.

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/04/11 08:09 PM

I'd love to see how my Chapman 285's would do on that block against the EZ-1's. The chaps are well known for the intake flow but with a 2" tube they flowed close to 300 @ .700 on the exhaust with the smallish but apparently very efficient port. It'd be an interesting comparison for sure, I suspect you're at the saturation point of the exhaust where it's simply slowing down the pumping rate (ability to keep accelerating) at high RPM which in turn limits how much draw you can N/A draw on the intake almost regardless of flow potential.

They'll say the exhaust just isn't as important and it's not at moderate piston speeds and RPM's but sooner or later you slow the pump down when you can't get the air out quickly enough, more valve timing can help to a point but eventually. with a 500 inch motor it's like using a piston to push fluid out of a filled 1 litre bottle...if one has a standard opening and the other has a Mickey's wide mouth, at some point, sooner or later Mickey's gonna win.

Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/04/11 10:55 PM

Quote:

I think I'll just keep beating on the EZ heads to see if I can hit the 900 hp mark. Just seems like an interesting challenge.

Nice updates Andy.

It is a neat concept but, I think you should upgrade the top-end and go for 1100HP.

Posted By: cudadon

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/05/11 02:30 AM

Russ Flagle told me SRs & EZs were similar ports except the SRs ex port is better. Perhaps 50 hp better. Don

Attached picture 6856718-104_3569.JPG

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/08/11 07:00 AM

Yes, the SR and the -1 have raised exhaust ports which on this engine probably would improve the power a fair amount. Also, the -1 heads have larger intake runners. So even though they flow roughly the same, the extra volume would probably help make more power.

But changing heads is not part of the plan. I already know that better heads would make more power. -1 heads would make more power, then B1 heads would make even more power and then Predator heads would make even more power.

I'm more interested in sticking with one basic combination and sorting it out. So I'll just stick with the EZ heads and see where it goes. 900 hp seems like a reasonable goal at this point.

Biggest debate I'm having at the moment is if I should stay with the 4.440 x 4.150, or increase the stroke. I could slide a 4.50 crank in there to pick up the size as well as the compression. I'm just not sure that bigger is better when the motor is already limited by the heads. Maybe smaller with more RPM makes more power?

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/08/11 04:15 PM

"Biggest debate I'm having at the moment is if I should stay with the 4.440 x 4.150, or increase the stroke. I could slide a 4.50 crank in there to pick up the size as well as the compression. I'm just not sure that bigger is better when the motor is already limited by the heads. Maybe smaller with more RPM makes more power? "
That was exactly my question when I built the motor I now have. I felt that the 4.15 stroke x 4.5 bore combo offered the best size for the 440-1 heads. Maybe I was off the mark, maybe not. I had a billet 4.5 crank at the time, chose the 4.15.
It would seem that at some point the total amount of air filling the cylinder at a given rpm must be reduced as the motor gets bigger, reducing running compression? Ring friction goes up, the biggest drag on the motor. Crankcase windage gets worse. Which would start to clip the hp up top more than just the differance in size of the motor.
At this point I still wonder if even smaller motor with the biggest bore possible might be the answer, say (edit)4.500 by 3.9 in strke for about 496 cubes. That would put the motor more in the sweet spot of what I have, a running range of 6400 to 7500 rpm..

Posted By: dirty magnum

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/09/11 04:24 AM

well said useless

Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/09/11 04:48 AM

Andy may not have a dyno sheet printed up. He was just trying tests and all logged on computer. I'm just saying

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/09/11 05:51 AM

Andy, have you looked at the dyno fuel system

I have seen them, more than one

not up to making as much power us Mopar engine guys can make

There are reasons, usually, why a motor won't respond to changes , on the dyno and at the track

Finding them is the challenge sometimes

IHTHS

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/22/11 06:35 AM

I think the fuel system is fine. I might upgrade the regulator since it acts a little funny sometimes, but the fuel system holds 7 psi during the pulls so the carb should be getting plenty of fuel.

My new connecting rods showed up the other day. I'm going to upgrade to the Oliver 7.100 rods this winter and add some compression.

Attached picture 6882967-oliver.jpg

Posted By: dvw

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/22/11 02:29 PM

Quote:

"Biggest debate I'm having at the moment is if I should stay with the 4.440 x 4.150, or increase the stroke. I could slide a 4.50 crank in there to pick up the size as well as the compression. I'm just not sure that bigger is better when the motor is already limited by the heads. Maybe smaller with more RPM makes more power? "
That was exactly my question when I built the motor I now have. I felt that the 4.15 stroke x 4.5 bore combo offered the best size for the 440-1 heads. Maybe I was off the mark, maybe not. I had a billet 4.5 crank at the time, chose the 4.15.
It would seem that at some point the total amount of air filling the cylinder at a given rpm must be reduced as the motor gets bigger, reducing running compression? Ring friction goes up, the biggest drag on the motor. Crankcase windage gets worse. Which would start to clip the hp up top more than just the differance in size of the motor.
At this point I still wonder if even smaller motor with the biggest bore possible might be the answer, say (edit)4.500 by 3.9 in strke for about 496 cubes. That would put the motor more in the sweet spot of what I have, a running range of 6400 to 7500 rpm..

Greg I agree with what you think on the HP issue. However I've seen some head limited engines produce good E.T.s. That leads to the question. Can some combinations benefit from more low end power through the range? Take Jakes 63 Savoy. 572,-13 heads,Indy cross ram w/carters,cal tracks,approx 3675lbs. 899@150 The math suggests it makes way more than we think. But i'll bet the torque curve looks as flat as Nebraska..
Doug

Posted By: deaks

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/22/11 03:00 PM

Andy
Not refering specifically to this build but i wondered what your opinions or experiences are with the super sucker dominator adaptor, or super sucker spacers in general. The reason i ask, is Dwayne suggested it might help my combo some and while i respect his greatly more knowledgable opinion than mine, it would also be nice to hear others experiences of them good or bad.
Mick

Posted By: Labratt

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/24/11 05:38 AM

Mick..I've wondered about the Super Suckers myself!

Posted By: LaRoy Engines

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/24/11 07:11 AM

Quote:

Andy
Not refering specifically to this build but i wondered what your opinions or experiences are with the super sucker dominator adaptor, or super sucker spacers in general. The reason i ask, is Dwayne suggested it might help my combo some and while i respect his greatly more knowledgable opinion than mine, it would also be nice to hear others experiences of them good or bad.
Mick

First chance I've had to read this thread.

I'm not on the level of Dwayne or Andy, I'm one of the "others", but I have tried the Super Sucker on single plane, single carburetor, engine combinations from 620-920 HP and have found the Super Sucker to increase horsepower every time.

And Andy, Thank you for the idea to put the window in the water return line, it would have saved our bacon in the contest. Plus, I for one, do believe the power you make with the 514 combination you are running. Our 500 with the Victor heads, HS Rockers, 13.5:1, the Indy 3X, 1150 Dominator and wet sump will pull those numbers. I think 900 HP is possible.

Posted By: deaks

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/24/11 01:20 PM

Thank you, can i also ask does the 2" pick up more than the 1" and have you tried the 4150 to 4500 adaptor and what you thought of that.
This question is to Andy, Heyoldguy or anyone else reading this thread, Andy, please say if you would like me to take this question to email.
Mick

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/24/11 06:53 PM

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the board. Always great to have experienced engine builders adding their knowledge to the forum.

I spent a lot of years in Idaho growing up but I haven't been back in awhile.

My 514 is underperforming if anything. A lot of guys are making way more power per cubic inch than I'm getting out of this motor. Have you worked on the EZ heads much? You sure got some great numbers out of those cast iron heads.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/24/11 06:57 PM

Carb spacers are just one of those things that you need to try to see how it works. Most engines will gain power with a taller spacer, but it doesn't always reduce the ET. We use 3 or 4 inch tall spacers on the dyno to add power, but in a car that tall of a spacer often causes a stumble unless you add a bunch of volume to the accel pump.

Posted By: LaRoy Engines

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/27/11 10:35 AM

Quote:

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the board. Always great to have experienced engine builders adding their knowledge to the forum.

I spent a lot of years in Idaho growing up but I haven't been back in awhile.

My 514 is underperforming if anything. A lot of guys are making way more power per cubic inch than I'm getting out of this motor. Have you worked on the EZ heads much? You sure got some great numbers out of those cast iron heads.

Thanks, Andy

Yes, I agree, there is more remaining in the 514.

As to the EZ heads, I picked up a set 18 months ago and spend a day fiddling with them and they went to 350cfm. I thought, "That's enough for now," and put them back on the shelf. Still gathering dust, but some day.....I'll turn them over to my son.

My son Cody is our real head porter. The iron heads are a result of an article by Cam Benty in the Dec, 1982 issue of Popular Hot Rodding. Cam did an article on my Dad's 440 and my son read it in 2004. Cody wanted to attempt what Dad had done back then, pulled out the old flowbench and began destroying cylinder heads. He finally figured it out after producing a huge pile of scrap iron.

In 2008 I was running 906 heads on my 451" Road Runner at the chassis dyno at Westech. I had a 383 on the engine dyno at the same time and when I came out of the dyno room, some guy was taking pictures of the Road Runner on the rollers. It was Cam Benty. He wanted to know how the 451 was making 554 RWHP on 91 octane and a single 4bbl. We started talking about the cylinder heads. He was interested in doing an article about the 906 heads but it never happened. I did however, get his autograph on a copy of the article about my Dad.

Enough, I thought this was supposed to be about your 514.

I really like those Super Performance gaskets you use. I've used other types and it took dynamite and tire tools to remove the intake. With the Super Performance gaskets I just unbolt and lift. Rats, I went and looked at the package, they are Superformance gaskets.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/27/11 02:04 PM

With great numbers already, where do you think more power lurks? Inquiring minds would like to know

I remember you were thinking of more stroke.
Enough in a bigger bore to consider? Other areas?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/28/11 11:12 PM

I'm going to add some compression and put a bigger cam in it. Right now the cam is only 266/276 with .400 lobe lift. The guys at Crane have suggested a 280/286 with .452 lobe lift.

I also have a few other upgrades in the works including some intake manifold porting and a new oil pan.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/03/11 10:46 PM

The intake is back from Wilson. They did a super nice job on it. I don't know how they port these things, but the finish is super nice all the way down the runners.

Attached picture 6902224-plenum.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/03/11 10:48 PM

Here is another picture of the intake. They removed the clover leaf and added length to the runners. The intake is also lighter than before so they must have removed a fair amount of material in the runners.

Attached picture 6902228-Wilson.jpg

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/03/11 11:43 PM

Nice to see they didn't razor edge the dividers like some hacks like to do.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 12:09 AM

Quote:

Nice to see they didn't razor edge the dividers like some hacks like to do.

Agreed............Ed even mentioned that to me about how a generous radios directs the air/fuel and a sharp edge confuses it. My intake however is WAY rough in texture..............maybe wilson thinks the "pretty" look is more impressive but definately not as good at atomizing the intake charge.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 01:06 AM

the "if it were me" response is.......i would get another OOTB intake so i could do a back to back test against the ported one.

Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 07:30 AM

Quote:

the "if it were me" response is.......i would get another OOTB intake so i could do a back to back test against the ported one.

That would be a interesting comparison

Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 12:39 PM

Quote:

the "if it were me" response is.......i would get another OOTB intake so i could do a back to back test against the ported one.

I'd really like to see that.

Posted By: LaRoy Engines

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 03:50 PM

Money, money, money, its a rich man's world. Who is the sport that's buying the $370 manifold for this comparison test?

Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 04:01 PM

I was thinking the same thing. But maybe someone could donate one for the test, then return it. If I decide to pull down the top end over the winter, I may even consider.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 04:10 PM

Here is a side by side shot showing unported vs. ported.

Attached picture 6903223-side.jpg

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 04:43 PM

Quote:

Here is a side by side shot showing unported vs. ported.

So, not only was it ported but the dividers were extended into the plenum............

Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 06:56 PM

Quote:

Here is a side by side shot showing unported vs. ported.

Sense there both there a comparison would be nice

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 10:47 PM

Yes, they did a ton of work to the intake. The dividers were extended, the plenum shape was changed, and the runners were ported for the entire length. This is one of their competition port packages.

Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/04/11 11:21 PM

Are you ever going to put this motor in a car and run it? Or are you putting wheels on that dyno.Your engine has not gone down the track and you are allready talking about putting different rods in it. If your going to bench race you will need a longer bench.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/05/11 02:58 AM

This one is a dyno motor. My car has a different motor in it.

Posted By: Labratt

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/05/11 02:12 PM

Andy's giving out EXCELLENT information...along with pics,and "DO-NOTHINGS" like you have to throw your little wize-azz remarks in!

I don't get it!

I'm sure this is why more than a FEW knowledgeable people stay away from this site!

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/05/11 03:29 PM

Quote:

Andy's giving out EXCELLENT information...along with pics,and "DO-NOTHINGS" like you have to throw your little wize-azz remarks in! I don't get it! I'm sure this is why more than a FEW knowledgeable people stay away from this site!

Lab, good to speak up. Knowledge like that is hard won and I appreciate it a great deal, as do many, looking from the post count.
I wish I had the $$ to do a dyno motor like this- then after many, many changes build another motor based on everything I learned and run THAT one!

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/05/11 03:41 PM

Quote:

Andy's giving out EXCELLENT information...along with pics,and "DO-NOTHINGS" like you have to throw your little wize-azz remarks in! I don't get it! I'm sure this is why more than a FEW knowledgeable people stay away from this site!

Need I ask who u are refuring to? Is it the crazy wheelstanding lady by chance?

Posted By: Labratt

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/07/11 05:03 PM

Dom,it was directed to WheelsUp 73!...didn't know it was a LADY!

That doesn't really matter....women can be wise-GUYS as well as men!

Posted By: Adrielp

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/07/11 05:43 PM

Andy, what rpm have you gone up to? Also, is the power curve still rising at the end of the pull. In theory, if the heads/cam combo can support the higher rpm, one would assume there maybe more power available but I don't know if that would higher rpms would suit this motor with the 4.15 stroke. I would think 8500(or a lil higher) maybe the highest plateau but who knows, I'm not a skilled engine builder like you guys, just a young student.

Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/07/11 06:33 PM

Let's stay on topic here..

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/07/11 09:46 PM

Peak power is around 6700 rpm with the 266/272 cam.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/23/11 06:15 AM

Crane recommended this 280/286 cam with .452 lobe lift. It is quite a bit larger than my existing 266/272 cam so we'll see what happens with the power curve.

I'm still waiting for a couple of parts to show up and then I'll get the engine back on the dyno for some more testing.

Attached picture 6932288-cam.jpg

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/23/11 06:42 AM

Quote:

Let's stay on topic here..

WHY

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/24/11 04:20 PM

It'll be intersting to see the cam comparison, but for it to be accurate you'd have to run it with the same intake you ran the last one with first, not the Wilson-ized one, is that right?

I would think/predict that the flow limitations of the stock height/short turn compromised EZ exhaust port are going to show up sooner or later...the bigger cam will certainly raise the torque peak RPM but the HP curve is likely not going to keep rising quite as dramatically/proportionally.

It would be great and very much appreciated (especially for us analytical 'cause and effect' type tech junkies/tuner types) to see the dyno charts on these pulls if possible, Andy!! Thanks in advance!!

BTW, I was thinking about buying that same MJ grind for my 517, let me know if you want to sell it!

Also, how much did Wilson charge for all that work?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/24/11 05:39 PM

I'd be willing to sell that Jones cam, shoot me a PM. It was a really stout cam with my setup.

Wilson charges about $1100 for their competition port when welding is required.

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/25/11 06:23 PM

PM sent!!

Thanks!

Bobby

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/29/11 06:27 AM

I had BLP build me a 2 circuit 1250 carb. It should work well with the Wilson ported intake.

Attached picture 6941445-1250.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/29/11 07:26 PM

If you look close you can see two jets that BLP puts in the top of the carb near the carb stud. Those are for idle air. It is easier to change jets up there than to flip the carb over and drill the throttle plates. Clever idea that makes an engine easier to tune.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 11/30/11 03:20 AM

Sure would have been nice when I was tuning a tunnelram. I think I only had to pull the carbs three times!

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 01/27/12 03:43 AM

New dry sump pan showed up the other day. I had Charlie build me a big pan. We'll see if the exra volume helps to make some power. This pan is really big. It has a 4 inch kickout and a deep belly section.

Attached picture 7038881-514.jpg

Posted By: 70blackfish

Re: 514 on the dyno - 01/27/12 04:38 AM

NICE.......

Posted By: Labratt

Re: 514 on the dyno - 01/28/12 05:08 AM

VERY impressive,Andy!

Wish my little ole' 440 could break ANYONE'S dyno!

Can't wait to get it back on Jake's dyno this Spring/Summer...after freshening up the motor,and bolting up the MCH cnc'd Eddy's...with additional compression..10:1-11:1!

Attached picture 7040490-DYNO-TUNESESSIONATJAKE'S5-25-10002(Medium).jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/20/12 07:13 PM

Putting the pan on the engine shows how large it is.

Attached picture 7081472-pan.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/20/12 07:14 PM

Window side.

Attached picture 7081475-window.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/07/12 06:22 AM

New pistons are here so now I have everything necessary to redo the shortblock. These pistons push the compression up to a little more than 15:1

Attached picture 7107092-piston.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/08/12 11:28 PM

I haven't worked on this project for awhile now. I did get a ModMan intake from Indy so I'll probably try that next time we go to the dyno. That might be interesting.

I loaned my Wilson ported Super Victor to the guys at Hughes Engines so they could do some dyno testing. I'm looking forward to how those tests go. Once the intake comes back I'll get this 514 back on the dyno. We'll see if the higher compression, Crane cam and the bigger oil pan make any difference.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/09/12 01:07 AM

Quote:

New dry sump pan showed up the other day. I had Charlie build me a big pan. We'll see if the exra volume helps to make some power. This pan is really big. It has a 4 inch kickout and a deep belly section.

Is the big pan going on right away, and will you swap pans at some point to see what difference it makes?

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/27/12 11:11 PM

AndyF,What percentage of load are you using on your dyno pulls?

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 03:31 AM

Hi Andy, I took the liberty of plugging in the numbers on the new combo, I use engine analyzer pro and with 15:1 compression, the ez heads, 7.1 rods, new cam, ported intake and 1200 cfm carb, the 514 made 918hp at 6600rpm and 802ftlb at 5200.

I ran the water temp at 140f

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 05:21 PM

Quote:

Hi Andy, I took the liberty of plugging in the numbers on the new combo, I use engine analyzer pro and with 15:1 compression, the ez heads, 7.1 rods, new cam, ported intake and 1200 cfm carb, the 514 made 918hp at 6600rpm and 802ftlb at 5200.

I ran the water temp at 140f

Sounds good. I'm shooting for 900 hp so we'll see if it makes it or not. Does Engine Analyzer Pro have inputs for dry sump oiling and crankcase vacuum? I haven't ever used the Pro version of the software. I know that the combination of thinner rings, dry sump oiling and crankcase vacuum is worth up to 50 hp in some engine combinations, but I'm not so sure we have the correct recipe yet for this engine.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 05:23 PM

Quote:

AndyF,What percentage of load are you using on your dyno pulls?

Sorry, I don't know what that means. Is that a dyno setting on certain types of dynos?

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 09:12 PM

I thought there was for the brake(I think most is done with water & some with electric motors) that was used to load the engine,I may be wrong.Thanks

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 09:16 PM

It'll be interesting to see for sure, I'm not sure I would put all that cr and exotic race oiling on a motor using EZ heads with their ' not a whole lot better than stock' 906 exhaust ports.

I fully understand (and respect) better than most that they are "the ones you have" but Your low 800 motor would likely make 850-860 with a set of at least equal intake flowing -1's or Chapman 285's alone

Posted By: Gabby63

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 09:38 PM

Hello , since I am new to this forum what is the car you will put this engine into ? Thanks Gary

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 09:53 PM

I assume he still has the Duster...

Quote:

Hello , since I am new to this forum what is the car you will put this engine into ? Thanks Gary

Posted By: Gabby63

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 09:55 PM

Thanks , alot of good info here . Gary

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 10:35 PM

I do have the Duster sitting in the shop. It will be getting a strut front end and a Lenco if things work out. Then again, it might just sit in the shop without any progress for another year! Like most people, I have way more projects on the to do list than time or money.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/28/12 10:41 PM

Quote:

It'll be interesting to see for sure, I'm not sure I would put all that cr and exotic race oiling on a motor using EZ heads with their ' not a whole lot better than stock' 906 exhaust ports.

I fully understand (and respect) better than most that they are "the ones you have" but Your low 800 motor would likely make 850-860 with a set of at least equal intake flowing -1's or Chapman 285's alone

Sure, -1 heads would make more power but then again so would 572 or PSO or MC or Predator, etc. I'm just flogging what I have while trying to stay within a reasonable budget.

If I can make 900 hp with a set of EZ heads I'll be satisfied. It would be fun to swap the EZ heads for a set of fully ported -1 heads and see what the power difference is. Everything should bolt straight across so that should be an easy test.

Not sure that -1 heads would even be the correct choice for this engine. Maybe something bigger? The bore size is 4.440 so I might be able to use the next step up. If I order the heads from Indy with the Jesel machining option my valvetrain should bolt right on.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/19/13 08:06 PM

Well we might hit the 900 hp goal today. I got the engine back on the dyno finally after more than a year of being busy with other projects.

She is making 880 hp at 7000 rpm with a box stock Edelbrock Super Victor. I have the Wilson ported intake here on the bench ready to swap on. So we need to double check everything and then swap intakes.

Only issue so far is that the Oberg shows a little bit of aluminum after each pull. But we have a bunch of new parts on the engine so it could be coming out of threads or something like that. We'll keep an eye on it and it should clear up after a couple more pulls. If not we'll have to investigate further.

Nice day for dyno testing. 68 degrees and low humidity so the correction factor is almost zero. Nice and comfortable in the dyno cell for a July day.

Attached picture 7782519-514HC.JPG

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/19/13 08:34 PM

Andy looking forward to the back to back comparison of a ported intake

Hope the mule makes the 900 mark. Get us some pics

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 01:47 AM

The Wilson porting work did the trick. Engine picked up 35 hp with the ported intake so that pushed us up to 915 peak power. That was with Renagade Pro-114 race gas. We switched to VP Q-16 and added some jet and saw a peak of 928 hp before calling it a day.

Probably some more power in it if I was willing to spend another day on the dyno. Timing was locked at 35 degrees all day and I never touched it. The power kept going up with more jet so we probably had some more room there.

And the water temp was fairly warm at 155 so there was more power available if we would run it colder. Had a hard time getting the oil hot. Even with a heater running full time we couldn't get it over 180 degrees. Usually there is more power if you can get the oil up to 200 but we couldn't get there. I would need to insulate the pan and the tank to get the oil that hot.

Engine ran super nice all day. No leaks, 80 psi of oil pressure on every run, and 12 inches of pan vacuum without a vacuum pump. We had problems getting any sort of pan vacuum last time we ran the engine so this time we spent a lot of time replacing seals and making sure the engine was sealed up tight. It pulled 10 inches of vacuum when priming the engine with a 3/8 drill so we knew we had it sealed up.

Attached picture 7782881-514wilson.JPG

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 02:22 AM

Awesome! That is impressive for sure. Would you say the dry sump was worth 50hp or so?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 02:41 AM

Hard to say how much power the dry sump is worth. Kind of depends what you compare it to. There are a lot of advantages that come with a dry sump which are difficult (and expensive) to duplicate with a wet sump system.

This dry sump pan is super big. It was custom built to be as big as possible and still fit on the dyno stand. The last dry sump pan that I had was big, but this one is probably twice a large as that one. The extra volume probably helped make power but we didn't run an A-B-A test sequence. That sort of testing is best performed when you have a $15 an hour shop rat who climbs under the engine and changes the pan while you go to lunch!

Attached picture 7782962-514R4.JPG

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 03:56 AM

Quote:

Andy looking forward to the back to back comparison of a ported intake

Hope the mule makes the 900 mark. Get us some pics

Picture posting seems to be hit or miss these days. Not sure what the issue is. I'll try again.

Attached picture 7783076-514HC.JPG

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 05:22 AM

We'll try a Mod Man intake with a custom built single Dominator top on Monday. I have my doubts but I guess the dyno will tell us if it works or not.

Attached picture 7783156-514modman.JPG

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 08:30 AM

Can a dry sump pan be made smaller ( shallower ) in the front if you are running an Alterkation front suspension and what would be a minimum depth for a dry sump pan lets say for 14-71 roots blown Hemi.

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 04:08 PM

Great work as always, andy!

Any dyno sheets you can post up?

Be interesting to see where the hp/torque curves overlay, I'd say the majority of the 500" stuff on here are aimed more toward true 'dual purpose' street/strip car....so more power up top at the expense of torque through the middle isn't always the best trade-off on a heavier car with street gears and an automatic.

Thanks!

Bobby

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 05:38 PM

Engine made 709 average ft-lbs of torque from 5000 rpm to 7000 rpm. We only recorded data from 5000 to 7000. Torque is basically flat from 5500 to 7000. It only varies about 5% over the rpm range.

This engine would probably work best with a 5500 stall and a 7000 rpm shift point. Should get down the track fairly quick.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

Great work as always, andy!

Any dyno sheets you can post up?

Be interesting to see where the hp/torque curves overlay, I'd say the majority of the 500" stuff on here are aimed more toward true 'dual purpose' street/strip car....so more power up top at the expense of torque through the middle isn't always the best trade-off on a heavier car with street gears and an automatic.

Thanks!

Bobby

I think now that your dyno shows around 1.8 HP per cube, that engine has become quite the dyno mule. It makes me wonder if people across the country could follow that exact recipe and come up with the same numbers consistently. To think An EZ headed combo could make that much horsepower (928 HP so far)is surprising at the very least. I've seen guy's build B-1 combo's that only make about 25-50 HP more than that.
I have to admit that I too and I'm sure many others as well would really like to see the raw data from some of those dyno sessions. By that I mean all the actual meaningful stuff like BSFC, BMEP, SCFM, etc. etc. Admittedly I'm somewhat surprised at your unwillingness to share that info and so are many others that have shared their thoughts with me.
With all that aside, as an engine builder myself I have a pretty good idea how much time and expense has gone into getting the engine to where it is at this point. Thanks for sharing some of what you've done so far. I (and many others)just think it would be great if you would go to that next step on the dyno info.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 05:40 PM

Quote:

Can a dry sump pan be made smaller ( shallower ) in the front if you are running an Alterkation front suspension and what would be a minimum depth for a dry sump pan lets say for 14-71 roots blown Hemi.

You can have anything you want built. I've had Charlie build my last couple of dry sump pans. Just send him a drawing and get a quote.

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/20/13 08:45 PM

Excellent work....

That's a nice number for that hardware.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/21/13 03:09 AM

Thanks Jim. It was a long project. I bought the block back in 2007 so it has been more than 5 years. I added up the cost of the parts in the engine and it is a little over $28,000 as it sits today. So it wasn't a cheap project either!

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/21/13 01:58 PM

That's a nice gain with that manifold Andy

Did the extended runners in the Wilson intake broaden the torque curve compared to the other Victor intake?

Was also nice to see the Renegade vs VP fuel. Do you have an average HP/Torque difference between the two fuels?

Thanks for posting some pics

Posted By: BradH

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/22/13 07:08 PM

Quote:

The intake is back from Wilson. They did a super nice job on it. I don't know how they port these things, but the finish is super nice all the way down the runners.

I still

when I look at the work Wilson did to that intake...

Attached picture 7785881-SuperVictor-Wilsonplenum.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/22/13 08:22 PM

Quote:

That's a nice gain with that manifold Andy

Did the extended runners in the Wilson intake broaden the torque curve compared to the other Victor intake?

Was also nice to see the Renegade vs VP fuel. Do you have an average HP/Torque difference between the two fuels?

Thanks for posting some pics

Hi Greg,

We only ran 5000 to 7000 rpm so I can't say if the torque curve got broader or not. The Wilson intake just lifted the whole curve by roughly 35 hp. The Q-16 gas lifted again another 15 hp or so. If I put the engine back on the dyno the next thing I'll try is adding jet. The engineer at VP told me to keep adding jet until the motor starts to lose power. We added a couple steps of jet and motor kept making more power. So I don't know where the limit is.

Posted By: RT540

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/23/13 11:37 AM

My B1 intake is ported and also got those rounded extended wings. They don�t extend as much up top tho.

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/23/13 04:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi Andy, I took the liberty of plugging in the numbers on the new combo, I use engine analyzer pro and with 15:1 compression, the ez heads, 7.1 rods, new cam, ported intake and 1200 cfm carb, the 514 made 918hp at 6600rpm and 802ftlb at 5200.

I ran the water temp at 140f

Sounds good. I'm shooting for 900 hp so we'll see if it makes it or not. Does Engine Analyzer Pro have inputs for dry sump oiling and crankcase vacuum? I haven't ever used the Pro version of the software. I know that the combination of thinner rings, dry sump oiling and crankcase vacuum is worth up to 50 hp in some engine combinations, but I'm not so sure we have the correct recipe yet for this engine.

Yes it does, the selection is "low engine case pressure or dry sump".
I made another pull with low tension rings and it made 924hp at 6750rpm. It's pretty cool how close the numbers are.

Edit: I just noticed that I had the water temp at 165, I moved it to 155 and I also had the carb cfm at 1300, so I left it there and it made 929hp@7000rpm and 830ftlb of torque at 5000rpm.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/23/13 06:15 PM

That is pretty cool that the model is that close on HP. The engine isn't making that much torque though so it is off there.

I didn't realize the new version of the software had all of those features. The older version that I had years ago didn't have pan vacuum or water temp.

Oil temp is also important. The HP goes up when the oil temp goes up. We kept trying to get the oil hotter but couldn't. Oil was fairly heavy BR from Joe Gibbs. A thinner race oil would probably be worth another 10 hp or so.

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/24/13 12:22 AM

Quote:

That is pretty cool that the model is that close on HP. The engine isn't making that much torque though so it is off there.

I didn't realize the new version of the software had all of those features. The older version that I had years ago didn't have pan vacuum or water temp.

Oil temp is also important. The HP goes up when the oil temp goes up. We kept trying to get the oil hotter but couldn't. Oil was fairly heavy BR from Joe Gibbs. A thinner race oil would probably be worth another 10 hp or so.

Yeah no doubt, I'm curious as to how close my guess was on the head flow, I'm shooting for similar numbers but I'm going the easier route with B1's and a Kieth Black short deck.

Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/25/13 03:47 AM

Nice results Andy.

I wonder if you would compare the 440-3 (not 3x) with a 2" spacer with some mild blending everywhere.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/14/13 03:29 AM

Quote:

Nice results Andy. I wonder if you would compare the 440-3 (not 3x) with a 2" spacer with some mild blending everywhere.

I don't own a 440-3 at the moment. I will try a 440-3X next time I line up some dyno time. This engine hasn't really liked the -3X in the past but maybe now it is making enough power to use the 3X size. The 3X probably needs to be port matched to even come close to the Super Victor, not sure I'll find the time to do that though.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/15/13 08:31 PM

I talked to a rep from Royal Purple and he said that 180 to 190 F on the oil temp was just fine. So I'm not going to worry about getting the oil hotter than that.

We figured out that the aluminum shavings were coming from inside the oil pump. I sent the pump back to Peterson Fluid Systems and they repaired it under warranty. Thanks to the guys from Peterson for that. The pump didn't have much time on it, but it was well past a normal warranty period since I bought it two years ago.

When I finished this round of testing I didn't think I had anything else to try but after a few weeks of thinking and talking I actually have a fairly long list of things that I'm looking into.

Stepping up to a larger header size with a shorter primary length is #1 on the list. I need to try going richer with the Q16 as well as trying more pan vacuum. Dwayne had some ideas on the heads so those will probably make the trip to his shop at some point.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/15/13 08:37 PM

I don't have Dyno Sim but I do have PipeMax. The PipeMax numbers are fairly close to what we see on the dyno. PipeMax does say that I need .866 valve lift and I'm not quite there. But that is just a limitation with these heads.

PipeMax is recommending a 2.125 header that is 29 inches long with a 16 inch collector. The original PipeMax calculation that I did a few years ago told me 2 x 34 inch header. It will be interesting to see what difference it makes.

Posted By: jughed

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 11:29 AM

Not sure if this has been asked before....any dyno sheet??????

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 11:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Great work as always, andy!

Any dyno sheets you can post up?

Be interesting to see where the hp/torque curves overlay, I'd say the majority of the 500" stuff on here are aimed more toward true 'dual purpose' street/strip car....so more power up top at the expense of torque through the middle isn't always the best trade-off on a heavier car with street gears and an automatic.

Thanks!

Bobby

I think now that your dyno shows around 1.8 HP per cube, that engine has become quite the dyno mule. It makes me wonder if people across the country could follow that exact recipe and come up with the same numbers consistently. To think An EZ headed combo could make that much horsepower (928 HP so far)is surprising at the very least. I've seen guy's build B-1 combo's that only make about 25-50 HP more than that.
I have to admit that I too and I'm sure many others as well would really like to see the raw data from some of those dyno sessions. By that I mean all the actual meaningful stuff like BSFC, BMEP, SCFM, etc. etc. Admittedly I'm somewhat surprised at your unwillingness to share that info and so are many others that have shared their thoughts with me.
With all that aside, as an engine builder myself I have a pretty good idea how much time and expense has gone into getting the engine to where it is at this point. Thanks for sharing some of what you've done so far. I (and many others)just think it would be great if you would go to that next step on the dyno info.

i would love to see this motor put in a sorted out car and make some passes down the track. I doubt you would see a 929hp result

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 03:58 PM

Load cell reads correctly when we deadweight it.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 04:39 PM

Quote:

Load cell reads correctly when we deadweight it.

So post up a sheet....talk is cheap...what are you waitin for?

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 04:43 PM

heck lets find a car and put it in. think of the article you could write on that when it made a 7 second pass.

Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 06:13 PM

So far I have enjoyed this thread and found it interesting and beneficial. Instead of being passive aggressive with the

and such (one of my pet peeves in business and life) it would be interesting to hear opinions of why some of you feel the dyno numbers are inflated. Is this based on head flow? Lack of displacement? Because nobody has used a Jesel valve train, dry sump, wilson ported intake, etc. on a relatively "small" engine with "sportsman" type heads?

Not trying to stir things up more just wanting to get some of this out on the table. I see your

and raise you a

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 07:37 PM

Quote:

So far I have enjoyed this thread and found it interesting and beneficial. Instead of being passive aggressive with the and such (one of my pet peeves in business and life) it would be interesting to hear opinions of why some of you feel the dyno numbers are inflated. Is this based on head flow? Lack of displacement? Because nobody has used a Jesel valve train, dry sump, wilson ported intake, etc. on a relatively "small" engine with "sportsman" type heads?

Not trying to stir things up more just wanting to get some of this out on the table. I see your and raise you a

YES you are...........

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 09:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Load cell reads correctly when we deadweight it.

So post up a sheet....talk is cheap...what are you waitin for?

I had treid to post a comment on another post about power, I had said to one of the east of the Rockie Mtn. engine builder that maybe all our west coast engine builders motors suck all the O2 out of the air when we dyno test so you guys back east can't match the power we achieve

That comment disappear, maybe it was to controversial

All kidding aside, I've seen similar results with a 526 C.I. motor (440 block)with ported -1 heads that flowed right at 370 CFM .700 with a decent solid roller cam and valve train, stock 440-3 intake and a stock type Holley 9375-2 HP

it made 845 HP at 6300 RPM missing due to me using a set of dyno headers that where smaller on the exhaust port than the heads where, it started missing(intermittent small miss, not a steady miss on one or two cylinders) at 5200 RPM amd missed all the way to peak HP

I ended trying those heads on two different short blocks with the same dyno headers, they both missed, neither short block missed with a set of SR heads that had the smaller stock size exhaust ports with the same headers, those heads where worth 50+ HP on both short blocks even with the miss

AndyF gets a lot better parts in many cases for his testing than I can afford

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 09:25 PM

and thats why we have 10 second 800hp dusters around

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 09:52 PM

Quote:

So far I have enjoyed this thread and found it interesting and beneficial. Instead of being passive aggressive with the and such (one of my pet peeves in business and life) it would be interesting to hear opinions of why some of you feel the dyno numbers are inflated. Is this based on head flow? Lack of displacement? Because nobody has used a Jesel valve train, dry sump, wilson ported intake, etc. on a relatively "small" engine with "sportsman" type heads?

Not trying to stir things up more just wanting to get some of this out on the table. I see your and raise you a

What you should be asking is why he won't post up a dyno sheet.....

.....everyone knows Cabs Dyno numbers are "happy"

and that's OK since we all know it (except for Cab)...

Posted By: TonyS451

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/16/13 09:57 PM

Come on Andy, quit slacking already. We need more data (and more books, and more parts comparing dyno testing, and innovative product development, etc..etc...!!! And make sure all that comes out of your pocket while you're at it! We want more!!

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 12:36 AM

Even if the dyno is happy, I still enjoy seeing the difference different parts make......

Sasquatch and an Andy F. dyno sheet..........both talked about, but never really captured..........

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 01:39 AM

what did the modman intake do?

Posted By: DusterDave

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 03:10 AM

Quote:

what did the modman intake do?

Forget the Modman intake, that's just a smokescreen, a distraction. I found out through top secret unnamed sources working at the NSA, that a NightStar XS-14 unmanned aerial vehicle, operating at an altitude of 39,000 feet above the dyno facility, and using classified conctrete-penetrating gamma ray spectrometry, detected this product, The Tornado, being secretly installed inside the Indy Modman intake. A team of theorists, engineers and futurists at the NSA developed a theory which suggests that Andy is attempting to leverage the mild supercharging effect of the Tornado to achieve peak power levels beyond 1,000 HP, but he needed an intake manifold with a large enough interior plenum to fit The Tornado inside, which was the sole reason for selecting the Modman intake.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 04:07 AM

Quote:

and thats why we have 10 second 800hp dusters around

My Duster never had a 800 +HP motor in it, the last configuration of my 518 C.I. short block had a set of basicaaly stock Indy SR with M.W. ports, they flowed 340 at .700 lift. that combination made a best of 727 HP at 4300 Ft in Klamath Falls, OR, no Tornado in that motor

The Duster ran 9.96 at 134.8 MPH on Oregon pump gas through the exhaust with the air cleaner on weighing 3450 lbs with me in it with that combination

Now how does that compute

The T/A eight SS converter I put in that car made .2 ET and .25 MPH differences(quicker) in the 1/8 mile,

I'm not sure how much better in the 1/4 as I don't run the car that much in the summer at a 1/4 mile track. Bottom line is I tell you guys what the results are

Big Squeeze is correct about the local Studka dyno reading happy for awhile. Not so after I took my 526 C.I. mule motor to Klamath to test it on the DTS dyno down thier. I watched the dyno operators calibrate both dynos so I'm confident that they both registered, measured, within 10 HP and 5 Ft lbs of each other on the same motor, mine with no changes to the motor after calibrating the dynos

As far as AndyF and his results maybe some of you doubters ought to pitch in some cash to help pay for more dyno time with the stipulation that you get copies of the dyno sheets

Some people do, some people talk.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 04:16 AM

I must admit that when the "dyno sheet" questions come up the air gets silent............4 whatever reason just go back and start on page one.

Posted By: RT540

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 09:59 AM

Wouldn�t the biggest restriction be the cross section area at the push rod pinch? Andy, do you know that area?

Chuck at Best Machine made some good dyno numbers with B1BS heads and KB alum. block long time ago, if I remember correct. Around 900hp, maybe someone else saved some numbers from those post.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/17/13 10:12 AM

Quote:

that combination made a best of 727 HP .....The Duster ran 9.96 at 134.8 MPH on Oregon pump gas through the exhaust with the air cleaner on weighing 3450 lbs with me in it with that combination Now how does that compute

Since you asked....695hp....

Quote:

Bottom line is I tell you guys what the results are....

True....

.....and if Andy actually put his stuff into a car and raced it, there wouldn't be any question, but he doesn't and apparently has no plans to....

Quote:

As far as AndyF and his results maybe some of you doubters ought to pitch in some cash to help pay for more dyno time with the stipulation that you get copies of the dyno sheets Some people do, some people talk.

You're right Cab, Andy is doing a great job of "talking"....

....maybe I'll start a thread next week "talking" about how I built a hydraulic cam'd 318 with iron heads and manifolds that made 650hp on Oregon pump gas and then I can write a book about it....but I won't post any Dyno sheets or run it in a car, since you'll believe me....

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/18/13 03:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

that combination made a best of 727 HP .....The Duster ran 9.96 at 134.8 MPH on Oregon pump gas through the exhaust with the air cleaner on weighing 3450 lbs with me in it with that combination Now how does that compute

Since you asked....695hp....

Quote:

Bottom line is I tell you guys what the results are....

True.... .....and if Andy actually put his stuff into a car and raced it, there wouldn't be any question, but he doesn't and apparently has no plans to....

Quote:

As far as AndyF and his results maybe some of you doubters ought to pitch in some cash to help pay for more dyno time with the stipulation that you get copies of the dyno sheets Some people do, some people talk.

You're right Cab, Andy is doing a great job of "talking".... ....maybe I'll start a thread next week "talking" about how I built a hydraulic cam'd 318 with iron heads and manifolds that made 650hp on Oregon pump gas and then I can write a book about it....but I won't post any Dyno sheets or run it in a car, since you'll believe me....

Sounds like you've been listening to long to some of them Okie TV star street racers

, Especially if you beleive you wiil convince to beleive stuff that you make up that doesn't make any sence at all

Me thinks to many keyboard racers read to much stuff written by magazine scribes that print a bunch of hoprsecrap that some engine builder or racers fed them that they know nothing about so every body takes it as the gospel

Same thing on on line and purchasble HP calculators, there written by people that make thier living selling software, their not racers using the results they made

As I have said before, we that offer insights to those learning should make sure that we do no harm, ever

Intentional or otherwise

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 08/18/13 05:14 AM

Quote:

Come on Andy, quit slacking already. We need more data (and more books, and more parts comparing dyno testing, and innovative product development, etc..etc...!!! And make sure all that comes out of your pocket while you're at it! We want more!!

Hi Tony, nice to see you stop by! I spent the day out in the shop designing new parts. Here is one new product. Large tube header flanges for the EZ heads. I added clearance for the head studs so guys don't have to notch them after the headers are finished.

Attached picture 7818201-flange.JPG

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/13 09:53 PM

Got the engine back on the dyno for some more testing last week. I was mostly interested in working on the oiling system. I had a new dry sump tank design to try out and I had a flow meter hooked up to the oil pump for the first time.

At 7000 rpm this engine has about 8 gallons per minute of oil flow. That is a little less than I expected given the unbushed lifter bores and the valve cover oilers. The oil pump section is only 1.0 inches wide but it doesn't have any trouble maintaining 75 psi at 8 gpm with 5w30 oil. Anyone else have any data on oil flow rates? I've never seen anything published other than the Milodon claim that their Mopar pump flows 15 gpm.

The air coming into the dyno cell was only 37 degrees so I had to add a bunch of jet size. Uncorrected power was way up given the cold air. Barometric pressure was 30.07 so it was a mineshaft air day. Altitude was -1500 ft when I looked at the gauge. Cold air and Q16 combine to make a lot of raw power.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/13 10:09 PM

Quote:

Got the engine back on the dyno for some more testing last week. I was mostly interested in working on the oiling system. I had a new dry sump tank design to try out and I had a flow meter hooked up to the oil pump for the first time.

At 7000 rpm this engine has about 8 gallons per minute of oil flow. That is a little less than I expected given the unbushed lifter bores and the valve cover oilers. The oil pump section is only 1.0 inches wide but it doesn't have any trouble maintaining 75 psi at 8 gpm with 5w30 oil. Anyone else have any data on oil flow rates? I've never seen anything published other than the Milodon claim that their Mopar pump flows 15 gpm.

The air coming into the dyno cell was only 37 degrees so I had to add a bunch of jet size. Uncorrected power was way up given the cold air. Barometric pressure was 30.07 so it was a mineshaft air day. Altitude was -1500 ft when I looked at the gauge. Cold air and Q16 combine to make a lot of raw power.

I am curious as to the suction side of the pump/inlet
tube on what kind of restriction it shows on a gauge...
I assume you took the flow reading from the oil in
or out of the filter area

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/13 10:13 PM

The suction side of the pump is fed with a #16 line coming off the bottom of the oil tank. The tank is positioned slightly above the pump so there is positive head. There should be almost zero restriction on the suction side of the pump.

I measured the oil flow on the pressure side of the pump. Once the oil goes thru the filter I routed it thru a flow gauge and then into the block.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/13 10:17 PM

Quote:

The suction side of the pump is fed with a #16 line coming off the bottom of the oil tank. The tank is positioned slightly above the pump so there is positive head. There should be almost zero restriction on the suction side of the pump.

I measured the oil flow on the pressure side of the pump. Once the oil goes thru the filter I routed it thru a flow gauge and then into the block.

Thats what I figured for the flow meter... I didnt
know you had a big -16 supply line
EDIT
But I forgot you are running a dry sump now

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/13 12:38 AM

8 gpm is about 4 feet/sec of fluid velocity in a #16 line which should be fine for a suction line. If I need to make any changes to the inlet hose I might upgrade to a #20 line since that would reduce the suction resistance and the flow velocity even more. My inlet line is only about 3 feet long so I don't think there is any issue with the #16 line but bigger is better on the inlet side.

Did you guys ever run any oil pump flow tests in the dyno room?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/13 01:54 AM

Quote:

Even if the dyno is happy, I still enjoy seeing the difference different parts make......

Sasquatch and an Andy F. dyno sheet..........both talked about, but never really captured..........

OK Hold the boat there..
Sasquatch makes more than any I have ever seen on a monthly basis the old fashioned way..
without ever bragging, just Doing!

He is always " Keeping it Squatchy" around here. They have dynoed MORE Mopar combos than any builder I know of. The head porter they use has won several Daytona 500's and called on by Mother Mopar for consultation many times.
Thing is most that are interested in the details want that Hard Earned info for free--ain't happening! This is the real world and that info is
what they put the kids through college with so No you can't have it for free but..every customer I know that has placed confidence in them walks away in wonder after watching their new engine run and the multiple National wins and championships just keep adding up..............

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/13 02:07 AM

Quote:

8 gpm is about 4 feet/sec of fluid velocity in a #16 line which should be fine for a suction line. If I need to make any changes to the inlet hose I might upgrade to a #20 line since that would reduce the suction resistance and the flow velocity even more. My inlet line is only about 3 feet long so I don't think there is any issue with the #16 line but bigger is better on the inlet side.

Did you guys ever run any oil pump flow tests in the dyno room?

I was never involved in any of that but I'm sure
they ran them... hell... even with something like
that you wouldnt need a dyno... just apply enough
restriction to simulate the engine and spin the pump

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 01:20 AM

Working on putting the 514 back on to the dyno today. Should have it running after Christmas. It has been a little over 3 years since I last ran this engine. We cracked the heads back in 2013 and the engine just got stuck in the corner of the shop while I was off working on other projects. Heads are repaired and I built some new stuff for it so now it is time to see if she still runs.

Attached picture DSC_0132 (Large).JPG

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 01:26 AM

Lots of oil lines to hook up with the 5 stage dry sump. I upgraded to a -20 line for the pump feed line this time around. The scavenge is a -16 line.

Attached picture DSC_0144 (Large).JPG

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 02:59 AM

Is this a pre-trick flow test, or is it getting different pistons with the other heads?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 03:39 AM

I haven't figured it all out yet. I wanted to get this engine back running if I could. It if runs great then I'll do some testing with it. If the heads are shot then I'll pull it down and convert it over to the Trick Flow 270 heads. If I put the TF heads on this block I'll get different pistons so I can run pump gas. I think the 15:1 setup is too big of a hassle for me.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 06:25 PM

Andy - Which heads cracked, and in what part of the head(s)?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 06:50 PM

Indy EZ heads cracked in the chamber. I sent them to Fastlane Machine in Utah for repair. I'll dial back the ignition timing this time and maybe run it a little fatter.

Posted By: cudadon

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/24/16 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By AndyF

Quote:

Hi Andy Merry Christmas,
A couple questions on the flanges if you don't mind?
What size are the openings?
Will they work on SR MW heads?
Will you make them in stainless?

Thanks again, Don

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/16 03:45 AM

Made some dyno pulls today with both X16 and Q16 fuel. Nice day for dyno testing, air density was 0.080 or 105%. Temp was 40 degrees with 30.20 on the barometer. Elevation was something like -1500 feet. 35 grains of moisture which is low but we were close to the dew point so it was super foggy and cold outside.

Engine was making a little over 900 hp with a 97% correction factor so we were losing 3% of power to the correction. It would be making roughly 930 hp uncorrected. The Q16 was worth some power but we didn't get the jetting quite perfect yet. Try some more tomorrow and I'm going to try some runs on C45 also.

BLP set up the carb so it can use C16, Q16 or C45. They sent complete tuning kits with the carb for the different fuels. Each fuel requires a unique set of metering blocks as well as changes to the air bleeds and upper jets.

Posted By: Clanton

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/16 04:03 PM

That is a lot of carb data for all those fuels.I guess you don't want to leave the lid open on any of those fuels for very long.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/16 05:28 PM

Andy, did you back to back c16 vs Q16?

At around that power level I've seen about 35hp myself.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/16 06:11 PM

Yes, we did back to back X16 to Q16 and picked up almost 30 hp. It takes a little bit of carb work to switch between fuels. BLP set me up with a carb that will switch between 2 circuit for race gas and then 3 circuit for Q16.

I also pulled a little bit of timing out of the motor and that improved things. With less timing the wide bands went leaner and the motor picked up some power. I think I might have had too much timing in it before which might be why the heads got hurt last time.

We're going to try C45 today. The recommendation is more fuel and less timing so I'll follow what VP says and we'll see how it goes.

I also think the cam I have in the engine is too big. We're down a little bit of power from the smaller cam that was in it before. Doesn't really surprise me, at this power level the intake port is probably the choke point and not the valve lift. Valve lift is .890 gross which is probably more than it needs.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/16 06:35 PM

Is that the Crane cam you had done?

As I recall, that had pretty long duration.

Posted By: Harry's Taxi 2

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/29/16 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By AndyF

What ignition timing did you have it at?....and what did you back it down to?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/16 03:42 AM

I originally had 36 degrees on race gas but backed it down to 34 and the engine ran a little better. With the Q16 I took another degree out to 33. With the C45 I dropped it down to 31 but after some testing we went back to 33 which worked the best.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/16 03:46 AM

Originally Posted By fast68plymouth

Is that the Crane cam you had done?

As I recall, that had pretty long duration.

Yep, I have a 282/288 Crane in it now with 481 lobes. The last cam was a Crane 280/286 with 452 lobes. I think the smaller cam made more torque but it is hard to compare. Last time I ran this engine was 3 years ago and the dyno was configured differently. So we could've lost some power from the camshaft, or the dyno cell, or the tuneup. I know I was running more timing and leaner mixture 3 years ago but I also hurt the cylinder head so I might have been on the ragged edge with that old tuneup.

Here is a video that shows a couple of pulls on Q16. Correction factor is 98% so we were correcting the power down all day. Engine ran strong all day. Oil filters were very clean so the engine isn't making any trash. The dry sump holds right at 10 inches of vacuum in the pan so not super high vacuum but enough to free up some power and keep the engine dry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zTAGAy081o&feature=youtu.be

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/16 07:09 AM

Originally Posted By fast68plymouth

Is that the Crane cam you had done?

As I recall, that had pretty long duration.

I loaded the 514 info into Controlled Induction and it recommends a 271/278 cam with .450 lobes and 109 lobe centers. So I'm about 10 degrees bigger than what Rick Jones thinks I need.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/16 06:04 PM

Any type of build I do along the lines of that motor is going in a bracket car, and pretty much all of my customers want motors that are relatively easy on parts/low-ish maintenance.

So, I end up coming at the cam situation from a different angle for that type of application.
The 470 TF testing showed that a faster valve opening rate and more lift do not always bring with them extra power. They pretty much always bring a little(a lot?) of extra wear and tear on the valvetrain.

Instead of looking at how much "more" power can be had from a higher lift, faster rate cam, and/or higher ratio rockers, I often think about how much power will not using something with a fast rate and high lift cost me? And, will the car still run the desired number while using a valvetrain that's easy(er) on parts?

Many times you're messing with 20-30hp(or less) difference between something that will live hundreds of passes with valvetrain parts and spring pressures that are more "middle of the road".
On a typical low-9 to low-8 second car, 20-30hp doesn't change the ET very much, but can make a noticeable difference in the maintenance and parts replacement costs and schedule.

Another aspect of running the motor in the car vs the dyno is, sometimes the cam is determined more by what the typical, or necessary rpm requirements are to get the combination to work well, and not solely by what makes the biggest number on the dyno.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/16 06:23 PM

I agree with that. If I was building a bracket motor then I'd go with a lower compression ratio, wet sump oiling and a softer cam. I'd probably stick with the other parts but perhaps a 1050 carb rather than the larger 1250 I have on there now. Engine would probably still make 825 hp but it would go rounds and last all season.

This engine was an R&D exercise to see how much power I could make with the EZ heads. I have some more tests to run with this combo then I'll pull it down and change the pistons over so I can run pump gas.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/30/16 06:28 PM

Yep, I'll take a more dependable w/a bit less power over max hp/high maintenance build unless it's an all out effort. I called Tim at Bullet because several on here said I could do better w/a different cam, well after a small discussion and my specs Tim said he didn't feel the additional power would be worth the added maint. My Isky roller is still kickin azz and is a pure joy to drive and very dependable w/less aggressive ramps............

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/31/16 12:48 AM

Andy, do you have a good idea about how much power the dry sump is worth, not including the crankcase vacuum(you could get that back with a vacuum pump)?

I guess I wouldn't have thought there would be a 75+hp loss by running a slightly lower CR(13.5-14:1), a more valvetrain friendly cam, 1.7 rockers, wet sump oil system, and a vacuum pump, but I don't remember what you found the dry sump was worth.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/31/16 01:43 AM

I do not know for sure. I think the dry sump was worth more than 50 hp but some of that came from the pan vacuum so you could get that back with a vacuum pump. I think I'm going to try a wet sump on here just to find out. The dry sump is a killer setup but it is a hassle on the dyno. Lots of lines to hook up and it takes time to prime everything and then drain it all when done.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/31/16 02:03 AM

A big box type pan, or a regular car pan for the wet sump test?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 12/31/16 02:57 AM

I'll probably swap on the Milodon pan from my 470. That setup seems to be working just fine on the 470 with nice solid oil pressure across the entire pull. I think everything will fit on the 514 but I'll need to verify.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 02/11/17 06:20 AM

Here is a link to the article on the Hot Rod mag website:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/modify-carburetor-run-oxygenated-race-gas/

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/02/17 04:05 AM

Going EFI on this engine. Should be fun or if not fun then at least a learning experience.

Attached picture DSC_0335 (Large).JPG

Posted By: Twostick

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/02/17 04:11 AM

Who's EFI are you using?

You may just cure yourself of carburetors.

Kevin

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 03/02/17 04:34 AM

I'm waiting for the Holley HP system to arrive. They don't make a Mopar version so I'm getting the universal setup with a 4500 throttle body. I sent this intake back to Wilson for the bungs and fuel rail conversion rather than trying to do it myself.

I made my own trigger wheel and I'm in the process of getting a cam sync built. Should be up and running by early April.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/08/17 05:17 AM

The Holley system was on universal backorder for weeks and weeks but it finally showed up and I'm getting ready to fire it back up. Rich (Fast Man EFI) is flying into town to help with the dyno session so that should be fun. Lots of new parts this time around so I'm sure we'll be trouble shooting right and left.

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Posted By: ccdave

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/08/17 02:41 PM

Very Nice

Posted By: krautrock

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/08/17 03:41 PM

is that cylinder PSI written on your valve cover and if so, does cylinder 5 say 150psi?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/08/17 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By krautrock

is that cylinder PSI written on your valve cover and if so, does cylinder 5 say 150psi?

Yep, that cylinder had a small hole in the chamber which had to be welded up.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 02:14 AM

Worked most of the day getting the engine installed and all of the new EFI stuff hooked up. My first EFI rodeo so the going is a little slow but we should have it fired up in another day or so.

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Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 02:17 AM

You'll enjoy this, some genius at Holley decided to move the throttle bores in the Dominator throttle body. So the Dominator throttle body does not fit on a Dominator 4 hole spacer. The instructions don't say anything about that and I didn't see anything about that on the website. We caught it before we had gotten very far but it seems super odd. We'll just run an open spacer instead of the merge spacer that we always use.

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Posted By: davenc

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 03:10 AM

Are the throttle bores spaced/aligned like a 4150?

Posted By: M_D

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 03:38 AM

Did you get your batch of trigger wheels done, or do you just have a single prototype?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By M_D

Did you get your batch of trigger wheels done, or do you just have a single prototype?

Still waiting for the shop to finish them up. As soon as I get one out of the shop I'll mail it to you. Should be any day now, shop promised them to me a while back.......

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 03:44 AM

Originally Posted By davenc

Are the throttle bores spaced/aligned like a 4150?

I don't think so but I'd have to measure to be sure. The 4150 is not a square pattern and this appears to be square. Also, these are 2.200 inch bores so they are much bigger than any 4150 bores. As far as I can tell this is a totally unique bore pattern that does not fit any existing gasket or spacer on the market.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/09/17 05:23 PM

Looks similar to the BLP Extreme Billet base plate............they bring em in a bit to fit a 4150 but you still need a 1/2 open spacer to clear the big 2" butterfly's.............

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/16/17 03:13 AM

Rich (Fast Man EFI) is here so we're tuning the 514 on EFI. She fired right up once we got the cam sensor in the correct position but the tune out the box was a little fat so it took some time to learn the new map. Made a few dyno pulls on it and power isn't bad, about 20 hp off of the best that it did with the carb. Still need to tweak the fuel a little more and then play with timing. Lots of new stuff to learn!

Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/16/17 02:35 PM

Awesome, keep us updated. I wouldn't be surprised to see the carb take the peak HP but it would be interesting to lay the curves over each other if possible.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/16/17 04:16 PM

The carb curve is the same as the EFI curve at the moment but the carb curve is higher. But it is never apples to apples. The weather is different plus I changed rocker arm ratio on the intakes and changed pushrods and the dry sump pump has been rebuilt. Stuff like that. We have a full day of tuning planned on the dyno today so we'll see where we end up.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/17/17 01:42 AM

Rich from Fast Man EFI working on the 514. Engine made good power today, right around 900 hp. Very interesting comparing the numbers from the laptop hooked up to the Holley ECU with some of the numbers from the dyno. Looks like the dyno airflow measurements are 10% low so that was a bit of a surprise. VE on this engine is 102% according to the dyno but 115% according to the Holley system.

I used to assume that PipeMax was wrong since it predicted 115% VE for the engine but now I'm starting to think that PipeMax was correct and that the mass airflow unit which we got from Stuska is wrong.

Also notice that the $250 wideband sensor which we use with the Holley ECU appears to be more accurate and much more stable than the $90 wideband sensors that we use with the dyno wideband. I never really trusted the dyno wideband numbers but the Holley wideband was rock solid and appears to be correct.

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Posted By: dart9ss

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 12:08 PM

what was the timing set on this engine ?

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 02:29 PM

Any plans for tests to be done on how fine or course the fuel atomization needs to be for this combination? I have to wonder if that might be part of the power loss?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 04:51 PM

We ended up finding the power. Just had to lean it out a little bit and add a little bit of timing. Only took a few minutes with EFI. Rich just sat at the laptop in the control room and loaded a new fuel table and the engine picked up. Then he changed the timing and the power picked up some more. We took a look at the plugs and they were fine. Looked like we could've added another degree of timing had we wanted but we left it nice and safe. The engine makes right at 900 hp with this tune. It is very efficient, the BSFC is right at 0.40, AFR is 13.0 and timing was 35 degrees.

We made a bunch of pulls and only had a few tiny specks of trash in the filter so everything seems to be running just fine.

I pulled the engine off the dyno and have it back in my shop so I can covert it over to CnP then we'll be back on the dyno again in a month or two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZcFl7fy6FI

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By gregsdart

Any plans for tests to be done on how fine or course the fuel atomization needs to be for this combination? I have to wonder if that might be part of the power loss?

I do not have any control over that. The injectors are what they are and the injector location is what it is. I don't have the time or money to mess with that kind of stuff. The Pro Stock boys test dozens of intake manifolds with different injector locations but that is super big bucks. Way out of my league.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By AndyF

Originally Posted By gregsdart

Any plans for tests to be done on how fine or course the fuel atomization needs to be for this combination? I have to wonder if that might be part of the power loss?

Understandable.
I am surprised the various fuel injection companys haven't offered options and guidance, I doubt one injector design covers both street and race requirements for best performance.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 05:56 PM

What is CnP?

Posted By: Jerry

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 06:28 PM

coil near plug.

I think if your injecting far enough up the intake or at the head interface where its convenient different injector spray patterns create minimal difference in peak performance. after this cost plays a big part for very little gain and return on investment for the average user.

Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 08:36 PM

CNP will be dirt easy now, because Andy has both crank and cam sensors for most BB and SB Mopars. No more ignition box, no dizzy, almost no electrical noise, and then you can adjust both fuel and timing for each cylinder. Racers with EGT love it.

Posted By: CSK

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/18/17 11:48 PM

Thanks Rich for the advice today on the Fast EFI Classic, you were a GREAT help!!!!

Charlie

Posted By: moparmitch

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/19/17 01:28 PM

CnP = Coil-Near-Plug. Similar to G3 hemi which has coil-on-plug.

Andy's setup will have the coils mounted near the plugs (maybe on the valve covers or located in an array on a bracket somewhere) with short plug wire leads for each.

Essentially, there will be 8 coils with short plug leads, 1 for for each cylinder.

Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/19/17 02:17 PM

Nice work and great accomplishment!

Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/19/17 02:28 PM

I have heard the farther up the runner you place the injector the more power you will make. But I think the gains are small and come with added work on the drive ability part of the tune.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/19/17 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By moparmitch

Yep, I'm still trying to figure it out. For the dyno engine I think I'll mount the coils on brackets on the valve covers. In the car I might put the coils on the frame rails or something like that.

The nice thing about the CnP setup is that you get rid of the MSD box, the big coil the distributor and a bunch of ignition wires. From a performance standpoint, each coil only has 1/8th of the job that the big coil had before. At 7000 rpm and 15:1 compression the MSD ignition had to really work.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/19/17 04:34 PM

Let me know if you want to try some 5.7 hemi coils.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 05/21/17 04:47 AM

I'm going to run the Holley smart coils which I think are basically an LS1 type coil.

Here is a video of us warming up the 514 on the dyno. If you look closely you can see the custom cam sync and crank trigger and other EFI parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CdKlTMNGp4

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/04/17 09:25 PM

One thing I noticed recently when I was going over the data is that the carb made 50 hp more than EFI at 5000 rpm. At peak power the EFI config made more power than the carb. I'm not sure what to think about the 50 hp difference at 5000 rpm, could be some sort of wave thing that happened for some reason. The intake was the same but perhaps the carb was just doing a better job at that RPM than the throttle body?

Attached File

EFI v Carb.pdf (171 downloads)

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/04/17 10:49 PM

When I try and open the attachment all I get is " network connection is lost"

Posted By: sgcuda

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/04/17 11:05 PM

Here ya go

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Posted By: ccdave

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/05/17 06:06 AM

Very cool work Andy

All of the COPO cars we build run Holley EFI systems. I will ask a few of the guys at the shop what they think of the dip in the chart and let you know what they say

Posted By: Alchemi

Re: 514 on the dyno - 07/07/17 09:18 AM

An article in a local Mag years ago had a story on a guy who did his PHD on intake design and injector placement. I cant give numbers but on the same length intake runners - long fiberglass cones, he dyno'ed 3 positions, the most HP was with the injector close as possible to the head, but the most torque was with the furthest placed injector, the middle funnily enough was a mix of the 2, from memory the furthest out was around 14 inches, the gains were more than dyno variance - double digits on a 4.0L straight 6 @280hp

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 09/22/18 07:25 PM

I got the 514 back on the dyno this week with the new coil on plug setup. This uses the Holley 558-117 universal COP main harness. We had some issues with plugged injectors due to the Q16 fuel, but eventually got it all sorted out. Engine made 880 hp on C14 fuel which was pretty good. COP runs nice but the wiring is a little more complicated. Getting rid of the distributor can be an advantage on a BB Mopar since the distributor can get in the way sometimes.

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Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/30/18 07:49 AM

I looked back and saw that this thread started in 2010 so it contains 8 years of history. Hard to remember how many different cams, intakes, carbs, etc. have been tested on this engine. And now it is time for me to wrap up the story. The engine is on the shipping crate ready to go to a new home. The new owner plans to drop it in his race car and hit the track so her days as a dyno mule appear to be over.

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Posted By: racerx

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/30/18 12:17 PM

That's cool

wonder if the new owner is a member here? Will be cool to here the #'s in a race car with it.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/30/18 05:41 PM

Had a great run with that one, good luck to the new owner.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/30/18 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By ZIPPY

Had a great run with that one, good luck to the new owner.

Yeah, 8 years of R&D. I tested a lot of ideas out on that engine. Very nice solid engine. The rear of the block is bone dry, never had any sort of oil leak during on those years of testing. Last compression test I ran showed 240 psi in each cylinder so the block really held up well. Too bad they stopped making them.

Posted By: TonyS451

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/30/18 09:02 PM

Thats a killer engine, I know the new owner must be thrilled. Looking forward to seeing whats next for you..

Posted By: 68-scatpack-rt

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/31/18 01:55 AM

Fantastic!

Posted By: 10secGTX

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/31/18 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By TonyS451

Thats a killer engine, I know the new owner must be thrilled. Looking forward to seeing whats next for you..

Well I guess I will confess, I haven't posted a whole bunch on here in a while, but I check in from time to time, and I saw that Andy mentioned he might sell his 470, so a PM and 5 phone calls later I bought the 514 !!

I just hope the GTX,and myself can live up to the expectations and potential of this engine !!

Looking forward to the future posts and reporting NEW bests, Thanks Again AndyF

Posted By: 340Cuda

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/31/18 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By 10secGTX

I saw that Andy mentioned he might sell his 470, so a PM and 5 phone calls later I bought the 514 !!

Cool! Keep us posted on your progress.

Posted By: TonyS451

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/31/18 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By 10secGTX

Originally Posted By TonyS451

Thats a killer engine, I know the new owner must be thrilled. Looking forward to seeing whats next for you..

Awesome. I remember your car from back in the day running well into the 10's. I assume you're shooting for much faster now! Always loved that 67 gtx.

Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/31/18 08:01 PM

How much power did it make in the configuration it was sold in?

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: 514 on the dyno - 10/31/18 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By 10secGTX

Originally Posted By TonyS451

Thats a killer engine, I know the new owner must be thrilled. Looking forward to seeing whats next for you..

Congrats! Nice to see you still around.
Name Change to 9secGTX will probably be coming right up

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 514 on the dyno - 04/08/19 03:34 PM

The 514 is in the new Hot Rod magazine so if you don't subscribe you might want to go find one at the store.

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: 514 on the dyno - 04/08/19 03:56 PM

Read the article yesterday. That is an awesome build. I enjoy seeing new tech on older engines.

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