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Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor...

Posted By: HerboldRacing

Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:19 PM

Ryan Johnson is nearing completion of my new W5 head motor. When he is done he is going to dyno and tune it for best performance. What do you guys think the HP numbers will be???

The specs so far...

48 degree R1A 340 block with bushed lifter bores and partially filled
Fully ported W5 heads (flows 339 @ .700) angle milled to 16 deg
498 W7/W8 intake fully ported
950 CFM Proform carburetor

K1 Technologies 4" 4340 crank with 2.10" GM journals
Crower 6.125" middle weight billet I beam rods
Diamond flat top pistons
Custom bullet 48 degree camshaft (109 LSA, 264/268 @ .050")
Crane ultra pro .903" 48 degree .210" offset solid roller lifters
Custom manton pushrods
T&D offset rockers 1.8/1.7 ratio (.693"/.693" lift)
Comp 955-16 pacaloy roller valve springs
Manley stainless race valves
External oil filter and cooler
110 Sunoco race gas
Estimate about 13.5 to 1 static compression ratio.

And a picture of the motor at this point:



So... let the guessing begin!!!

Posted By: all spooled up

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:36 PM

725 hp
Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:38 PM

Say 712hp 565tq...
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:38 PM

580ft lbs @ 5200 / 685hp @ 6900
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:41 PM

588 foot pounds torque and 738 hp.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:48 PM

sounds extremely similar to my old w5 motor, except different intake and your cam is about 9-10 degrees smaller. dyno's are different but i would suspect somewhere in the area of 660 ish ponies.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 04:48 PM

700 HP / 550 torque... but then "I don't know nuthin' 'bout no small blocks!"
Posted By: 72demon416

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 07:49 PM

680/580
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:24 PM

Am I allowed to guess?

675-680 HP
590-595 TQ

Cam has very slow ramps due to excessively high rocker ratio (for bracket motor) Ended up getting a deal on these rockers from a customer who wanted to use them on a high milage street W2 motor for a good price....

Off shelf pistons, 1/16" 3/16" rings.....

It's nothing really special, just has good set of heads on it.

Actual Compression is 13.1:1 BTW.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:31 PM

hey.... whats up with just the hp & TQ with no rpm, you guys need to up the stakes here
Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:34 PM

I bet it makes way more power than what it'll take to run your mid to high 10 second goal.......
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:36 PM

Quote:

hey.... whats up with just the hp & TQ with no rpm, you guys need to up the stakes here



You're in ballpark.... if anything peak TQ might be @ hair higher RPM, but with only 264 @ .050 probably pretty close there in the 5200-5300 range, will be very flat there in that area, so don't think it really matters. If converter is anywhere in 4800-5500 range will run about same down the track, this is'nt a class eliminator car.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:47 PM

Ryan, Ya got a pic of the valley plate to go with the 498? How did it fit up with the 2 degrees cut on the heads?
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:47 PM

Quote:

Am I allowed to guess?



Sure!!!
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:52 PM

Quote:

I bet it makes way more power than what it'll take to run your mid to high 10 second goal.......



That is fer sure!

I have a feeling a lot of jaws will drop when I bring the Duster back to my home track with the new motor in it.

I'm going to need to bring several changes of shorts...
Posted By: BradH

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/10/10 09:55 PM

Quote:

Am I allowed to guess?

675-680 HP
590-595 TQ


Like I said, I'm a small-block dummy and took a (s?)w.a.g. myself. I can understand your HP estimate, but that seems like a lot of torque for only 416 cubes.

So, how soon is this going on the pump?
Posted By: sleepyhead416

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/11/10 12:24 AM

675hp
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/11/10 12:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Am I allowed to guess?

675-680 HP
590-595 TQ


Like I said, I'm a small-block dummy and took a (s?)w.a.g. myself. I can understand your HP estimate, but that seems like a lot of torque for only 416 cubes.

So, how soon is this going on the pump?



I made 1.43 TQ/INCH before with pump gas 11:1 440 SB with good 59* INDY head.... I think we'll be in ballpark of that with this W5 motor. May be hair high guess. 1.38-1.40/Inch may be more realistic, we'll see.

Probably Beginning of week of the 13th @ this point. I've got decent amount of fab work to finish up on this top end including making a valley tray for it (will just be mild steel sheetmetal like a Big block), weld in some AN fittings for external water lines... The shortblock is done, pushrod clearancing is done (this is 48* block) Finished machining heads for T&D rocker geometry...
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/11/10 12:43 AM

More than me...........
Posted By: Wedgeman

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/11/10 03:35 AM

695 lbs @5000 rpm
645 hp @ 5700 rpm
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/11/10 03:26 PM

689
599

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/12/10 03:48 AM

between 660 an 680
Posted By: Wedgeman

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/18/10 03:29 AM

So.............are you gonna tell ?
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/18/10 03:31 AM

Quote:

So.............are you gonna tell ?



Absolutely! As soon as I know, you'll know. :-)

I haven't heard anything from Ryan yet... my guess is that he is still waiting on the head gaskets.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/18/10 04:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So.............are you gonna tell ?



Absolutely! As soon as I know, you'll know. :-)

I haven't heard anything from Ryan yet... my guess is that he is still waiting on the head gaskets.



They're here, all .120" thick of them.......That's alot of stainless.

I'm actually machining front water passages in them this morning & will be bolting heads on this afternoon. I'm looking @ Thursday to dyno. Pushrods should be here Monday or Tuesday, I had them shipped 3 day from Manton but I dunno which day they finished them.

Waiting on the Oil cooler.... & I still have to make braided water lines...
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/22/10 11:10 PM

Dyno day is tomorrow! Dyno day is tomorrow! Now everybody hold hands and bow your heads for the baptism of my motor. Think good thoughts and send well wishes in the direction of Pennsylvania.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/23/10 11:56 AM

Well good luck!!
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/23/10 10:53 PM

Well it ran....

I'll let Marvin post the Power #'s later. I've got to send him a more detailed email with the days findings first.

Tried 3 different carbs, pair 950's & a 1050 Quickfuel 4150, all were about same. Would have liked to have seen a dominator on it.

Best timing was in the 34-35 range. 30-32 was'nt too far off, anything over 36 & was'nt great.

2" HVH spacer picked it up a hir in the TQ, but otherwise this 598 W8 intake seemed to work real well. I was happy with the TQ/Inch considering the cam size & fact pistons were off shelf pieces. I thought these heads would do hair over 1.4 TQ/inch but did'nt quite get there, but real close.

Huge 11" B&M oil cooler really pulled oil temp out of it (block is filled with tall fill Hard block) Was first time I had dynoed one W/ a cooler. I think living in AZ he will be very glad to have the cooler. I don't think I saw over 156* oil temp all day even in back to back pulls.

Attached picture 6213444-100_2230.jpg
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/23/10 11:08 PM

Nice pic... hopefully you remembered to put the valve cover back on before starting it up.

I've got ants in my pants waiting for the full report.
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 01:18 AM

Ok the final verdict is in...

671 HP @ 6900 RPM
578 TQ @ 5200 RPM

The torque curve is pancake flat! Over 560 torque from 4800 RPM all the way through to 6200 RPM.

This thing probably makes more torque off-idle than my old motor did at WOT.





Posted By: greendart408

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 02:34 AM

Congrats
I was interested in seeing what that intake did for the power and torque #s.
Posted By: 72demon416

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 05:13 AM

Ryan, how do you think this intake compares to a Indy on this application? Do you think it was the M1 on that engine of Jimi V's that caused the numbers to be lower than Marvins given that everything other than duration and manifold were VERY similar( Jimi's even used a vac pump to it's benefit...)

I love these posts- it's neat to see the differences from the same basic engines.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 01:46 PM

Quote:

Ok the final verdict is in...

671 HP @ 6900 RPM
578 TQ @ 5200 RPM

The torque curve is pancake flat! Over 560 torque from 4800 RPM all the way through to 6200 RPM.


I'd love to see those sort of #s from my 440 w/ the CNC'd Victor heads (and doubt it will even make that much HP).
Posted By: sleepyhead416

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 02:15 PM

675hp ??? Very Nice
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 02:56 PM

These are phenominal #'s IMO. Good job guys! Like Don Gentry articulated a while back in another post; these are represenative results you'd expect from a respectable build. I just hope the one W-5 motor that made 860 HP does not overshadow the results you've achieved here. There must have been something really special about that ONE motor.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:05 PM

Quote:

Ryan, how do you think this intake compares to a Indy on this application? Do you think it was the M1 on that engine of Jimi V's that caused the numbers to be lower than Marvins given that everything other than duration and manifold were VERY similar( Jimi's even used a vac pump to it's benefit...)

I love these posts- it's neat to see the differences from the same basic engines.



Jimi's 416 W5 @ 13:1 with vacuum pump, custom pistons, light rings more cam etc made 1.27 TQ/INCH with the LG runner M1 & a Dominator & 2" spacer

Your 440" W5 Made 1.29 TQ/INCH @ 11.3:1, custom pistons, light rings, More cam, LG Runner M1

This 416 made 1.39 TQ/INCH @ 416, smallest cam of group, but not overly small @ 264/268 .690", Small 598 intake, off shelf pistons 1/16" 3/16" std tension rings.

You can figure out which intake works & which does'nt LOL

I've made 1.43 TQ/INCH on this dyno with an INDY 360-3 intake on pump gas...so I think you'll be happy with the difference.

I don't think this W8 intake makes any more TQ than an INDY would. I did'nt setup these heads for this intake these were purchased years ago already done elsewhere with this matching intake. I would have never spent all the time to make valley tray, external lines etc for this thing just to put a W8 intake on it. If we would have been starting with a blank slate of paper on this build it would have had an INDY 360-3 on it.
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:10 PM

Quote:

These are phenominal #'s IMO. Good job guys! Like Don Gentry articulated a while back in another post; these are represenative results you'd expect from a respectable build. I just hope the one W-5 motor that made 860 HP does not overshadow the results you've achieved here. There must have been something really special about that ONE motor.

who's W-5 made 850hp and how fast has the car gone?
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:11 PM

Also - that W8 intake had about 100 hours of porting work done on it if I remember right.
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:17 PM

Quote:

Also - that W8 intake had about 100 hours of porting work done on it if I remember right.

nice job guys
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:21 PM

Quote:

These are phenominal #'s IMO. Good job guys! Like Don Gentry articulated a while back in another post; these are represenative results you'd expect from a respectable build. I just hope the one W-5 motor that made 860 HP does not overshadow the results you've achieved here. There must have been something really special about that ONE motor.



It made exactly what it should have.... I'm pretty in tune with this dyno I use & know what a motor should or should'nt do for most part. I guessed 675-680 & it actually made 674 on best pull, was mostly 665-670 on most pulls.
I guessed hair high on the TQ, just based on not having ever ran intake like this one before & don't usually run cams quite this small duration wise. I was off by about 10 FT lbs. Dominator may have made difference there.

I've had 3 W5 strokers on this dyno, & 3 or 4 others on Riders dyno, so I have pretty good handle on what a W5 motor makes in real world.

W5's On this Dyno:

658 HP
658 HP
674 HP

I think we all can figure out where the 200 HP Discrepancy on that 1 motor comes/came from.

All 3 on this dyno had 4" cranks..... All 3 sets of Heads ported by 3 different shops.....

People without agenda's can figure it out, those with their own agendas will never see the light, much like politics.

But I will say I could easily "tune up" this combo cam wise/piston wise/oil pan wise & vacuum pump wise & make at least 730's with this top end, I have no doubt. But that would take just about every trick in book to do it.

In the end you just have to be realistic with what power is physically possible out of a 2.08" valve W5 head. You can WANT 1000 HP N/A out of them all you want, but it will never ever ever happen. Laws of physics overcome desires/beliefs sometimes.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:24 PM

Quote:

Also - that W8 intake had about 100 hours of porting work done on it if I remember right.



100 hours? no.... I don't know who ported it, but it was very nicely done, but probably more like 30-40 hours tops. I bet they had 80-90 in between the heads & intake though....
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 04:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Also - that W8 intake had about 100 hours of porting work done on it if I remember right.



100 hours? no.... I don't know who ported it, but it was very nicely done, but probably more like 30-40 hours tops. I bet they had 80-90 in between the heads & intake though....



That's what I meant heads and intake. I think you said some nascar shop did the work.
Posted By: 72demon416

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 07:51 PM







You can figure out which intake works & which does'nt LOL [/quote}

smartazz...

I should have clarified that I was refering to the HP numbers only- I know the M1 torque numbers suck but I thought the general consensus was that the HP would be relatively the same? I was wondering if all that time porting the 598 was worth it compared to using a box stock Indy...

but at the end of the day it"s down to splitting hairs as they are all good predictable numbers/results
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/24/10 10:57 PM

Your going to like that motor!!!
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 09/25/10 12:20 AM

Nice torque curve
Posted By: HerboldRacing

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 10/29/10 08:55 PM

Here is a video of the motor on the dyno - thanks to Ryan J for taking this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUmJIhhD-FY
Posted By: DavidDean

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 10/29/10 11:17 PM

I cant believe I missed this post. This combo's simular to mine 408" W-5 smallish roller indy intake.No Dyno but it went 5.93 @ 114 in Crandall Tx a couple of weeks ago. Nice numbers Ryan!
Thanks for the post!
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 10/30/10 12:19 AM

Quote:

I cant believe I missed this post. This combo's simular to mine 408" W-5 smallish roller indy intake.No Dyno but it went 5.93 @ 114 in Crandall Tx a couple of weeks ago. Nice numbers Ryan!
Thanks for the post!

in what and how heavy?
Posted By: DavidDean

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 10/30/10 05:14 AM

Duster 2825# 904 trans

Attached picture 6275320-102409%20198.jpg
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Guess the Dyno HP! 416" R1A-W5-W8 motor... - 10/30/10 09:45 AM

Quote:

Duster 2825# 904 trans

nice
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