Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ?

Posted By: dUmB!

Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 12:47 AM

... what would be your build-data on something like this ?

NOTHING super-sensitive that could not take some daily running of up-to 6 hours or so ...... (this is being considered for a X-drag-boat ... now going to be a "cruiser") ...

DEstroked 383/400 ? ........ Super lite pistons and rods ? ...... etc

Posted By: hemicop

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:00 AM

My opinion?

For a boat I'd look for some lite rods & pistons, perhaps a good 440 crank with the usual mods, a Milodon oiling set-up with an accumulator and (believe it or not) a cam similiar to what Mopar ran in the old cop car motors but perhaps with hydraulic rollers. Top it off with some Edelbrock heads & a dual-plane intake & I think you'd be set.
My thought here is to be looking for some steady, mid-RPM power that can run cool all day & not devour fuel like a race motor. After all the old, big Mopar cop motors would idle all day, run good top-end speeds on the freeways, stay cool and would do it for years (literally!) without any major work.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:01 AM

What do you call "really high winding"?

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:08 AM

Quote:

What do you call "really high winding"?

REALLY H-W ? ..... as good as I can get. In very short spurts MAYBE(got me thinking) near 9,000. REASON ? ...a single speed v-drive with a prop that MIGHT have 50-60% "slip" at lower speeds when you go WOT.

And as hc says ... you want something that will run all-day..... at maybe 3500.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:09 AM

My old de-stroked 383 use to turn 9500... light pistons
and rods.... with a good balance... with nice heads

Posted By: boatracer572

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:10 AM

whats yopur budget? I have many bbm. v-drive combos if your interested

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Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:11 AM

Gotcha, I would definately consider 9,000 rpm`s high and I have no clue or answer in terms of engine combos but I`m sure they will be rolling in soon.......good luck.

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:19 AM

VERY impressive boat there br572 ... is that really a 572 ?

As I write this I have Bad Boats 2 in my VCR ....with Kyle Walker and Freddy Bray !

Mr P .... TALK TO ME on that combo !

Posted By: boatracer572

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:31 AM

Its a 572" and I spin it to 8400 on every pass thats with 52% gears in the v-drive! High rpms
have their place at the races ,but very un feasable at the lake.put a bigger gear in your v-drive instead and your motor will last mucccch longer. I have owned many flatbottoms and found that a 18 gear with a 15 pitch prop worked very well or a 15 gear and 16 pitch prop that will put you at 100 mph at around 7200 rpms, typical prop slip is between 25 to 30 percent. my lake boat(21ft Belmont) 468 bbc it spins 6500 and pushes that big boat 86mph with a 18 gear in the v-drive

Attached picture 6022771-_WI_0130.jpg

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:41 AM

Mr P .... TALK TO ME on that combo !

Basically it was a 350... alum rods, light pistons for
the day... mushroom tappet big duration(cant recall
what it was).720 lift, alum heads ported with a 4 speed
tunnel ram with 2 850s in a 2800# Valiant, with ladder
bars

Posted By: Steve1118

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:44 AM

9000?? Why??

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:46 AM

25-30% slip ? .... at WOT at big-speed ??

This boat is a Stevens shovel-nose hydro with (I think) a Thro-bred? v-drive ... gearing I think is 30-over(I don't think I can get any parts for it)... prop is a 12" 3-blade cleaver.

I am just putting this together .... total newbie at this. I have fooled-around with a Hydrostream ... that had a habit of chine-walking at 80 mph !

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 01:53 AM

Props on a boat and a airplane are like gears in a car, sometimes it is better to lug the motor in between the peak torque and peak HP for best performance

If you want a tempermental high winding BB try a 4.5 or bigger bore with a 3.7 or shorter stroke, max out B1 heads or Predators and two big carbs or a good hair dryer or blower and a good EFI system

NOT CHEAP, may not live long either but it will make bookoo HP at high RPM for a while

Posted By: sixpakdodge

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:00 AM

Like Cab suggested, I had planned on building a 477" RB for my Horizon with a 4.5 bore Mega Block and a 3.75 stroke. In speaking with Herb McCandless, he said it could be done, but would be very, very hard on the valvetrain. He stated simply that it was not designed for that kind of RPM.

If you do go through with this, you'll probably want to talk with these people: http://www.jesel.com

FWIW, I ended up building a 528 (4.5x4.15)

Posted By: boatracer572

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:02 AM

25 to 30 percent is about right on.the prop is way to big direct drive about 11" 2 blade or 10 1/2 3-blade is what you want. I run only three blades on my race boat. thats with a clutch and two speed for pro elimator (8 sec. bracket) all out she runns in the 6.8 range at over 170

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Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:03 AM

CB .... my thoughts on all this ...is this.

There is NO WAY that I will be able to ever run this boat flat-out anywhere around here. SURE ...you can run 160 plus out in Lake MI .... but a boat like this would stuff-itself on the first 2 foot roller.

ALL I want is a boat that will GATE SHOT like a bear. And my thoughts are(br572 would know better) ... is that from a dead-stop OR a slight-roll .... the prop-slip would be HUGE. SO ... my need for an RPM motor that would do-so ....RIGHT NOW.

Posted By: Dads426

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:08 AM

Quote:

My old de-stroked 383 use to turn 9500... light pistons
and rods.... with a good balance... with nice heads

I don't think the old prostock hemis turned that high (maybe the destroked ones came close...)

Posted By: boatracer572

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:16 AM

The prop on my boat slips very little from a dead stop. clutch+two step at 5000 rpms+52 gear=lots of prop speed ,little slip and consistant rt.no boat out there without a blower or nos can out half track me. 4teens to the 1/8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:19 AM

Big question would be what stroke you looking at Doc. The RPM will be in the abilty for the heads to flow, and the cam and valve train that would support it.... Long arm engine like a 4.5" stoke will take much more head than the same engine with a 3.75 stroke. High winding to me might mean something diff to someone else.
above 8K to me is high winding. stoke stroke 440 with a set of fully ported B1's will get it done.

Anything from the facory on this type build would be a waste of time and money.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My old de-stroked 383 use to turn 9500... light pistons
and rods.... with a good balance... with nice heads

I don't think the old prostock hemis turned that high (maybe the destroked ones came close...)

Just telling you what I turned it to.... back then
they were turning the PS much higher than that

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 02:33 AM

No reason it can't be done, I think a destroked 383 crank to ~3.2" with a 2.200 journal and a long 7.100 rod in A 4.375" BORE 400 BLOCK would be a very reliable high-revving bottom head. The pistons would have about a 1.16" CH and could probably be in the 2000-2100G bobweight range.

The question is...how much are you willing to spend for valvetrain? You'll want a solid roller with good TD or Jessel valvetrain, milled pedestals with Race W2 Style billet blocks, and you're definatly going to want very high quality lightweight valves an edurance road race style lobe and beehive race springs.

I would shoot for an 8200-ish peak power and a 8000-9K limit, that's doable with Typical Max Wedge aluminum head flowing ~380cfm....you can go even higher with a B1 style head but you might as well put in a formula 1 style tack because that combo of parts won't fall out of a tree below about 4000rpm!

Let me know when you build it, I've toyed with a high rev B motor combo for years but I couldn't think of a suitable lightweight body to put it in.....although I toyed with dropping one in a Cobra replica

Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 03:56 AM

I asked this question a while back concerning my 451 Pro-comp head build. After getting bashed for using Chinese cylinder heads and questioned about my quest for RPM we collectively decided my idea was stupid. The application was for my stripped out '66 Charger that is getting converted into a corner carver street car. I'd still undecided on what I am going to do.

One thing is for sure though...if you want big RPM in a B/RB motor you will need a Jesel valve train, ugly valve spring pressures and a very expensive oiling system to make it live. I'm sure you or I could put together a mathematically correct high revving big block and get lucky enough to have it live but what if it didn't? Lots of money down the drain.

I'd love to build an all aluminum Jesel equipped dry sump big block with some heads that flowed >400 cfm however I'm not sure that is the best bang for the buck. A pump gas 572 is starting to sound like the hot ticket...

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 05:44 AM

Quote:

CB .... my thoughts on all this ...is this.

"ALL I want is a boat that will GATE SHOT like a bear."

You want a torque motor with torque pitch 3 or 4 blade prop. They dont slip, they hook.

You dont want a RPM motor with a 2 blade speed prop that cavitates on take off and then hooks and books after a soft take off.

Any B/RB motor will have plenty of torque for you IMO, just prop it accordingly.

For a Lake boat I dont think I would ever try to make a rev motor for a Gate Shot boat.

IMO, some props can hook better in water then our slicks can on pavement. mike

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 04:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

CB .... my thoughts on all this ...is this.

"ALL I want is a boat that will GATE SHOT like a bear."

You want a torque motor with torque pitch 3 or 4 blade prop. They dont slip, they hook.

You dont want a RPM motor with a 2 blade speed prop that cavitates on take off and then hooks and books after a soft take off.

Any B/RB motor will have plenty of torque for you IMO, just prop it accordingly.

For a Lake boat I dont think I would ever try to make a rev motor for a Gate Shot boat.

IMO, some props can hook better in water then our slicks can on pavement. mike

I had a IMP Aztec V I/O that had a 14x14 three bladed aluminum prop originally with a 300 C.I. buick V8. I ened up trading a car for it after it had a 350 Chevy installed in it. This was a family boat, not a race boat. I ended up trying four different pitches on two different props, both where the same diameter, style and amount of blades. Going down to 12 pitch made the boat a real dog on take off, the motor would cavitate the prop and it would take forever tp plane I had the original prop repitch to 16 and ended up buying the 18 pitch prop for it, that boat like more pitch, take off was less dramaitic, it planed quicker and faster and top speed went up for the same RPM It was a deep V 21 ft that was heavy, light is right and the bottom of the boat condition and design it way more important than the motor power Buy a race boat if you want to play with the race boys

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/06/10 10:06 PM

Quote:

Buy a race boat if you want to play with the race boys

Hey Guyz ...THX to all for food-for-thought. I guess the prob here ... is that I am just-not in most of yours mind-set when it comes to a power-plant.

B1 heads, Jesel valve-train, 572 cubic inches ? .... wasssupy ???

... LOTS of the stuff I bought for this boat - and the boat itself - I got on eBay ...

The rotating assembly that I was thinking about using before ...30 over 383 old-school TRW's on rods with a crank AND a set of 452 heads WITH a set of adjustable iron Crane rockers ...I got ON eBay for 55$ ....

HEY ...I know a GOOD MOTOR is going to cost TONS more than this ... but the way things look now ....I am probably going to have to owner-finance the property I have here in order to SELL IT and THEN put down 200-LARGE on some property in FL.

So I gotsta-bee a bit of a cheap-skate here !

Now to CB's quote .... RACE BOYZ ?

Any of you ever been to Key West .... and their SuperBoat races ? .... the boats, babes and BIG-BUCKS would blow yerr mind. I have been there many times ..... and even though most of the stuff is Chebby-powered .. it even-now - gives me goose-bumps thinking about watching those races from on-the-rocks at Fort-Zack state park .... as the FOUR ENGINED boats would go flying by ....30 feet away going 160 mph .... launching off 4 to 6 foot rollers ...

IF you can ever get the opportunity to see it ....do it.

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Posted By: Labratt

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 03:35 AM

High-revving and "old-school" TRW's don't seem to go hand-in-hand to me! Aren't they REAL heavy?

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 04:28 AM

If you want screaming RPM, does it have to be a big block? Why not pick up one of the R5P7 motors that are already setup for high rpm screaming? S/F.....Ken M

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 04:28 AM

I hear-you on being "heavy" ... that was the reason for this topic. But me thimks I was uNcorrect in my thinking about needing such a high-rpm motor... I thought there was a TON of "slip" at lower speeds.

So ... these TRW's ...with a say a 557 or 590 cam ....should be good for SPURTS of what ?? ....

..... 7800 ?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 04:37 AM

Quote:

I hear-you on being "heavy" ... that was the reason for this topic. But me thimks I was uNcorrect in my thinking about needing such a high-rpm motor... I thought there was a TON of "slip" at lower speeds.

So ... these TRW's ...with a say a 557 or 590 cam ....should be good for SPURTS of what ?? ....

..... 7800 ?

be lucky to get 5800 out of it in a boat.

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 06:15 AM

Quote:

be lucky to get 5800 out of it in a boat.

ONLY 5800 ? ..... such a Silly Boy !!

...But WHY would you be thinking that I would ONLY be running on the small-PRIMARIES of the ...... ThermoQuad ? ...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 10:07 AM

oh, i forgot about you and your thermocrack carbs. in that case make it 5400 rpm max in a boat.

as a boy, you must have wanted to be a plumber when you grew up and your still having pipe dreams.

Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 02:36 PM

Not trying to further dump on you here than others have already...........

but for all the extra $$ need to run rpm's........

I'd change out that old obsolete gearbox and get a splitcase Casale to run a low rpm RB (440-500 c.i.).

It's hard to widen an rpm band more than anyone else has yet in history. Developing the "cake and eat it too" set-up means lots of trial and error gear and prop testing.

Engine wear goes up exponentially with rpm.

As FL states famous Big Daddy used to say, "it's better to dial back and win consistently than to run out on the ragged edge and break often".

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 05:15 PM

Quote:

oh, i forgot about you and your thermocrack carbs. in that case make it 5400 rpm max in a boat.

You FORGOT about that ? ...

HAVING another "senior" moment ...huh ? ...

But seriously ...why would you think that those old-school RACE forged pistons have an rpm limit of LESS THAN a OEM factory cast flat-top piston ? ....and WHAT ABOUT a boat would be any diff than in a car?

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 05:36 PM

Quote:

Not trying to further dump on you here than others have already...........

but for all the extra $$ need to run rpm's........

I'd change out that old obsolete gearbox and get a splitcase Casale to run a low rpm RB (440-500 c.i.).

It's hard to widen an rpm band more than anyone else has yet in history. Developing the "cake and eat it too" set-up means lots of trial and error gear and prop testing.

Engine wear goes up exponentially with rpm.

As FL states famous Big Daddy used to say, "it's better to dial back and win consistently than to run out on the ragged edge and break often".

Why HI ....DeanOsaur !

People DUMPING on me ? .. I don't see-that at all ....'cept maybe DPO ...and in most cases there .. he is just having a "seasoned-citizen" MOMENT(s) !!

The v-drive box ? ...I wish I had a Casale ... do you know anyone who has one? ... I have been in-touch with Johnsons Speed Whse in Lansing and they said that Dick Lahaie was an expert on V-drives. Do YOU know anything about the "box" I have?

ALL HERE considered so far ... I think that I should just put-together what I have. About all I will be needing is a cam ..... 520 to 600 lift range .... solid lifter ... with a WICKED idle !!

....and it also has to get 20-miles-per-gallon ! (and THIS IS at 'choo ...DPO)

Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 06:08 PM

Hey Doc!

I just don't see the reason to go high RPM HP when we all know BIG torque moves mass. Physics don't lie.

Just build what you got and go from there. Why try to reinvent the wheel.

Me, no specific knowledge about the "Thorobred" brand of v-drive gearbox. I did pick up an old "Hemi" gearbox (it stands for Harrington Engineering Manufacturing Industries) for a low-$$ sweet deal at a swapmeet a few years ago. This thing is about 1/3rd larger than the more common splitcase Casale. It looks like it will handle brutal loads of torque & HP. A 500 c.i. wedge with a set of Indy's would work fine for me.

Posted By: 23T Hemmee

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 09:18 PM

Doc,
I can tell you from personal experience. '71 Sanger shovel nose ski hydro, maybe a little lighter than your Stevens, but not much. Pretty decent lake boat with a .060 over ex-NASCAR Hemi with alky Hilborns, ran 121 quarters at mid-10.20's around 8400 with 22% gears and I think (its been 30 years) 11 1/4 by 16 Menkens prop. For grins between rebuilds I threw a .030 over 383 together, VHS prepped 906 NASCAR heads, 540" Erson Mushroom with 850 on a Tarantula (Torker?)manifold, nothing exotic, just decent parts. Motor sounded plenty healthy on the trailer, trying to get it to leave hard was another story. Get up on a plane and it was a sweet little cruiser, just didn't have enough bottom end to get it up quickly. If you want to cruise around the lake and get decent mileage(thats a relative term in a boat), think you could have some fun with a 383. A lot of people mistakenly think a high-winding low torque setup should work in a boat if it works in a car, but that is seldom the case, especially in a direct drive boat. Water just has a way of absorbing torque and HP, and I don't understand the physics, just know from experience that it does. My

Posted By: emarine01

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/07/10 10:04 PM

If you want to turn 9k in a boat and hit it hard outa the hole its hard to beat a 2 stroke

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/08/10 02:02 AM

Quote:

be lucky to get 5800 out of it in a boat.

I was wondering when someone would finally say it. And he's not talking about piston weight, I think he is say your missing something important - torque and horsepower.

Posted By: dUmB!

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/08/10 11:44 PM

Hey guy THX for the additional input ..... I am at the 'brary right now(with that Xcellent 'net connection) ... got to go in a bit .... come-on-back with more to digest !

Posted By: speedfreak440

Re: Really HIGH-WINDING B/RB engine ... ? - 06/10/10 01:52 PM

If you are not just totally hung up on putting a mopar engine in it the why not swap in a Duramax diesel? You can get a complete used one for $2500 - $3500 & a simple programer alone will get somewhere between 550-600 hp with around 900 lb ft. Get a properly geared box to take advantage of the torque & 3800 rpm power band & you are set. Just food for thought but budget & power sort of go hand in hand with a diesel.