It's in, running and has too high oil pressure???

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 05/20/10 12:58 AM

Posted By: Leigh

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:05 AM

If it's a smallblock, it's an understatement to simply "pull the pump". The job sucks in a door car, at least in mine. Especially if you just got it final assembled.

Good luck with it.

Posted By: dc426

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:09 AM

tell me about it

Posted By: Leigh

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:16 AM

Yeah, I know. Pull the distributer to allow tilting of the engine to keep pressure off the center link that goes through the pan. Pull the headers before removing the pittman arm and tie rod ends. Of course, this is after removing the front wheels. Then, everything is done on the back, including recentering the 340/360 oil pan spacer. Plus, the pan is so big, there isn't much room between it and the trans. I'll pull the motor next time, all that is left is the converter bolts. Doing it on the engine stand is a H E L L of alot better deal. Like I said, GOOD LUCK

Posted By: jamesc

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:57 AM

OR you could eat a slice of pizza while you pull the pump off your big block...OK maybe two slices

Posted By: Leigh

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 02:42 AM

Quote:

OR you could eat a slice of pizza while you pull the pump off your big block...OK maybe two slices

Isn't that the truth.

So easy, even a... Naa, I ain't going there.

Posted By: flatiron

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 03:12 AM

Finally broke in my 360 today with a Melling HV pump and 15w/40 Rotella. 100 lbs of pressure for about 30 mins then it started dropping off. After about 90 mins of run time I'm at 75lbs of oil pressure at 2k RPMS

Posted By: 340B5

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 04:54 AM

The HV72 I put in my SB put out 80psi in March when I first started it.(45deg) Now after a couple hrs run time and a couple passes it is 62psi@2000 and 45psi at idle (1150 rpm@ 70 deg.) Oil is 10-30 Mobil 1.

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 06:12 AM

Quote:

OR you could eat a slice of pizza while you pull the pump off your big block...OK maybe two slices

HELL ...you could pull-the-pan in that RE dragster on ONE SLICE.

.... SAME goes for my FED that is going together .... but my v-drive boat ?... not-so-much.

B U T ...all this heavy-weight oils you are talkin' about ..... on a race-car-only ....why aren't you thinking 0 or 10 weight stuff ?

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 05/20/10 08:48 AM

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:05 PM

d.c. i just experienced the same thing with my samll block and got black flagged last weekend when oil squirtted past the oil filter boss gasket. i had gotten the pumps straight from melling with contingency, (also talked to a couple of other mopar racer with this problem) called melling and asked if they changed anything on these pumps and they said they were not aware of any problems, so let's make them aware of it! call them and ask them what going on and maybe they will look into it. tech guy said most likely bypass valve stuck! dave

Posted By: BobR

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:08 PM

Quote:

I would never run straight 30 weight. I would go to 5W30 or maybe the 10W30 Valvoline racing oil and if your water temp was 160 that means nothing. The oil temp could still be way lower than that. Drive it for 30 minutes and report back.

I agree. Why use heavier oil? 15/40 oil is 15 weight oil with hot properties of 40 weight. Straight 30 will result in higher pressure-especially until fully warmed.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:49 PM

so how is it you guys are missing this BEFORE you drop the engine in the car?
i always prime engines while on the stand so there's no surprises afterward.

Posted By: StrokerDart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:50 PM

I had the EXACT same "runaway oil pressure" problem last season with a freshened smallbock and new Melling HV pump. First time in all these years that this has happened to me. I replaced it with another HV pump (this time it was a Speed Pro but anyways) and problem solved.

BTW, the bad pump did not show any particular problem when I dissassembled it after removal (and I had opened it up/inspected it prior to original install). It had to be the relif valve but I could not prove it to myself so in went he new pump.

I feel for ya on the job ahead .... I think in hindsight, pulling the motor back out would have been easier than dropping the pan in the car

Posted By: StrokerDart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 01:53 PM

Quote:

so how is it you guys are missing this BEFORE you drop the engine in the car?
i always prime engines while on the stand so there's no surprises afterward.

In my case I had primed the engine on the stand but with just the drill speed... it looked normal so I got fooled into thinking all was well.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 02:09 PM

Quote:

so how is it you guys are missing this BEFORE you drop the engine in the car?
i always prime engines while on the stand so there's no surprises afterward.

So Dram... what would you expect to see for a pressure
while priming and what size drill motor(or what
ever you use).... I know on my stuff I usually see 70

Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 02:10 PM

WHAT ????
YOU HAVE THAT BACKWARDS
30 is 30
10w 30 10w 40
5w30
it is a 30 w until the temp starts falling
below the 32^
then it stats to act like thinner
wieght for easier starts in winter
i used to spec out oil for trucking companies
desil oil have certain properties to help in sludge/ breakdown additives and soot control

Posted By: dc426

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/20/10 02:55 PM

Thanks for all the input guys.

DRAM, First off We primed it on the stand with a gauge attached. It showed 75 LBS. constant with a high torque drill. Don't know what else to expect

Last night I drained the Rotella and this morning tried a 5w-30. As the motor warmed up the pressure fell to about 75 at idle and was around 85 at 3500-4000. It looked as if it would continue to fall as the motor got hotter. I had the temp up to 160. Of course that's not necessarily the oil temp but it seems to prove as the motor gets warmer the oil pressure is falling into place.

The old oil pump stated at 65 regardless if it was hot or cold.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 03:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Melling high volume pump. Same as what was in there before.

thats probably your problem. these new hv pumps have a lot of pressure.

Been using the "high volume" pumps forever big and small blocks w/out issues. Some on here and others I know said they took em apart to find debree in em and the relief to be stuck. I also know that the "high pressure" pumps were shipped in high volume boxes.

Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/20/10 03:44 PM

oil filter 101
if you see 85 -100 psi at youre gauge
that is about normal race car
some motors are restricting the top end ,either in the block or heads?? so you could see increase of pressure that way
youre gauge is usauly last in line to see pressure
pump does accumulate most of the pressure rest is generated by mains cam bearings?
as for filters they are restriction as well
the race filter are far less restricted than that of normal cars
reason not much filtration inside in other words it allows more oil to thru mmm
after idle the filter doesnt filter much oil at all and at speed say above 1500 rpm very little oil actually goes thru that filter
the filter cannot accept that flow
so it bypasses it altogehter
in passing a race filter filters out less particules than a reg filter does
but will allow more oil thru it faster rate
reg filter will filter more smaller particules
thru it but allow less oil thru it
does it matter ??
so long as you filter doesnt burst
??
not telling you to run cheap filter
not telling you to run the best there is either
with alcohol you have to be carefull as some dont like the water condensation

Posted By: BobR

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 04:03 PM

Quote:

WHAT ????
YOU HAVE THAT BACKWARDS
30 is 30
10w 30 10w 40
5w30
it is a 30 w until the temp starts falling
below the 32^
then it stats to act like thinner
wieght for easier starts in winter
i used to spec out oil for trucking companies
desil oil have certain properties to help in sludge/ breakdown additives and soot control

You may want to do a little research before calling someone else wrong. And if you used to "spec" diesel oil why don't know how to spell "diesel". Actually, Multi-weight oils (such as 10W-30) are a new invention made possible by adding polymers to oil

At cold temperatures, the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot. Maybe we just aren't looking at this the same way but I absolutely know that in the instance of a 20W-50 oil the base stock IS 20W and the polymer additives give it 50W properties.

Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 04:24 PM

ok we just had three valvoline reps in
our store rep meeting
some of what you say is almost correct
but if say 20 is the starting oil in 20 w 50
no
which is ashland oil, makers of several oil some independant oil they cannt say
so the makers must be wrong then.
heating of oil will make oil pressure seam to
get lower
here the result ,
everthing expandes as motor gets warm
metal expandes you agree ??
so does rod main clearances cam etc
so there is where most of that pressue goes away
action reaction thing
wounder how 0w 20 works mmm
0 wieght in my race car thatll work

this is a good discussion i like it
as for research me and my brother spect oil out
so it does come from first hand knowlege

as for spelling not in school and my typing skills not the best fat fingered and need new
keyboard sorry for that
i will stay after school and write it on the
blackboard 100 x hahaha

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 04:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

so how is it you guys are missing this BEFORE you drop the engine in the car?
i always prime engines while on the stand so there's no surprises afterward.

So Dram... what would you expect to see for a pressure
while priming and what size drill motor(or what
ever you use).... I know on my stuff I usually see 70

for a HV pump on a smallblock with a std. spring (not hi pressure) and wider racing type bearing clearances, i normally see 65-70 lbs. while priming with a 1/2 HP 1/2" drill at 2400 rpm, which would be equivilent to 4800 rpm engine speed.
as a rule the smaller 3/8 drills are 1/4-1/3 hp and are too weak to turn the pump at full rpm, so the pressure reading could vary quite a bit using one of those.

Posted By: 340B5

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 04:42 PM

Dis be whut de espurts say;

Polymers expand and contract to both ends of the spec. Wt. @ 70* is somewhere in the middle. At least thats whut they teld me in automotive skool anyhoo.

Posted By: 440dart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/20/10 11:04 PM

Quote:

ok we just had three valvoline reps in
our store rep meeting
some of what you say is almost correct
but if say 20 is the starting oil in 20 w 50
no
which is ashland oil, makers of several oil some independant oil they cannt say
so the makers must be wrong then.
heating of oil will make oil pressure seam to
get lower
here the result ,
everthing expandes as motor gets warm
metal expandes you agree ??
so does rod main clearances cam etc
so there is where most of that pressue goes away
action reaction thing
wounder how 0w 20 works mmm
0 wieght in my race car thatll work
this is a good discussion i like it
as for research me and my brother spect oil out
so it does come from first hand knowlege

as for spelling not in school and my typing skills not the best fat fingered and need new
keyboard sorry for that
i will stay after school and write it on the
blackboard 100 x hahaha

If this is true why does a simple oil cooler cause the pressure drop to be considerably less.

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/21/10 01:03 AM

thumper: that's what i was asking the melling tech, if an hp pump could have made it into a hv box and he said they only have standard and hv models, no high pressure 1s. again i think we need to let them know there is a problem!

Posted By: Sixpak

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/21/10 01:54 AM

Change the pump to a stock one. I've heard of the melling hv pressure issue at least 8 - 10 years ago. Saw something similar on a small block I built in the mid 90's. I would think that strain on the pump over time might harm or shear the oil pump drive, or maybe throw off the distributor timing off.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/21/10 03:40 AM

Quote:

thumper: that's what i was asking the melling tech, if an hp pump could have made it into a hv box and he said they only have standard and hv models, no high pressure 1s. again i think we need to let them know there is a problem!

That`s probably true as it`s been a few years ago.........I think.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/21/10 05:33 AM

Quote:

Thanks for all the input guys.

DRAM, First off We primed it on the stand with a gauge attached. It showed 75 LBS. constant with a high torque drill. Don't know what else to expect

Last night I drained the Rotella and this morning tried a 5w-30. As the motor warmed up the pressure fell to about 75 at idle and was around 85 at 3500-4000. It looked as if it would continue to fall as the motor got hotter. I had the temp up to 160. Of course that's not necessarily the oil temp but it seems to prove as the motor gets warmer the oil pressure is falling into place.

The old oil pump stated at 65 regardless if it was hot or cold.

I would never pull an engine or the pan because my oil pressure was 5-10 pounds too high..

You can get real old really fast stressing about nothing..

Run it and have fun with it. Stop working on it..

Chris...

Posted By: polyspheric

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/21/10 02:31 PM

You may not see actual spark scatter, but it doesn't help.

pump does accumulate most of the pressure rest is generated by mains
No true: the pump is only refreshing the leakage from the bearings. It provides only a very small proportion of the actual dynamic pressure, most of it is RPM � viscosity � journal OD.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/21/10 02:44 PM

IMHO, a small hole drilled through from the pump exterior to intersect the relief piston bore just ahead of the piston at full retraction will add to relief volume (and reduce overpressure), it just won't be recirculated. This is probably not true with all pumps, but my subject pump has a .420" relief piston (.138" area), but the relief port is only 11/32" diameter (.093" area), and only bypasses 67% of the possible volume. A single 7/32" hole to the exterior will only open when the piston is fully retracted and will not affect normal operation. This brings the total bypass dump area up to .130", almost the same area as the valve itself.
No, I haven't tried it yet.
Anyone see anything that's going to bite me?

To be honest I think that would work well... I dont
foresee any issue because it would only open that
port at or right near max open... which in case would
help dump the aerated oil

Posted By: polyspheric

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? DELETED - 05/21/10 03:24 PM

Post deleted by polyspheric

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/21/10 03:29 PM

Quote:

Thanks, I was afraid I was tripping over something obvious!

My subject pump has the piston just barely sealing the passage at rest, so enlarging the existing hole can only be done to the rear in any event. A diametric increase is not a good idea since it captures the piston from cocking upward under pressure.
Some pistons may be possible to just reduce the length to allow it to reach full unmask position (or modify the retainer). Check the spring to make sure it doesn't bottom out 1st, etc.

I am assuming this pump you are working with is a
in pan pump so you can dump the oil

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/25/10 02:45 AM

well, having posted here before, thought i'd update my progress, none!!! spent most of today switching out the sb oil pump i put in at the rebuild a month ago, it had over 100 lbs pressure and blew oil past the oilboss gasket onto the headers causing me to be black flagged. this happened above 4500 rpms. at idle it was 80 lbs and the 1 i replaced from last yr was 65lbs going down the track. 1 i put in today did exactly the same as the previous 1, reved it to about 4000 and saw smoke coming off the headers and sure enough it blew past the gasket again! now my ? is could i have done something on assembly to create this problem? pumps both came straight from melling (contingency reward) and block was cleaned with soap water and brake cleaner, honed by machine shop, and recleaned, crank was polished only and motor was reassembled. i have never had any problems like this before and thats why i'm reaching out to those of you in the know. always put some oil in the pump and assembled my motors before this and pressure was 50 to 60 at hot idle and 70 to 80 going down the track. i called melling about the 1st pump and they said they're not aware of any issues with these pumps. i called today but it was after hrs so i'll see what they say tomorrow. but in the meantime any suggestions on something i could have messed up on assembly? as always thanks in advance and thanks tom!! dave

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/25/10 03:09 AM

I really dont think its you... sounds like they have
a by-pass spring issue.... you put on 2 different pumps
only to have the same issue... I would say that takes
you out of the problem... you could cut the by-pass
spring down some.... or take the spring out of your
old pump(from the original pump that worked) clean
it and install it in your new pump.... and make sure
the little piston/cup moves freely

Posted By: Ron Silva

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/25/10 03:24 AM

I think you said you changed the bearings? I think you literally have a good tight engine and you have to go to a standad volume Pump. You have too little flow required and the PP bypass cannot handle it. Basic physics. Most race engines in the past used big bearing clearances and big if not huge rod side clearances and needed the high volume PP. You probably have stacked all your clearances to the small side. I sure hope you did not do all that work and put another HV pump in there. Sorry if you did.

So your bearing clearances are nice and tight and possibly the Rod side clearances. Main Rod and rod side clearances affect oil pressure the most. Well rod side clearances could affect pressure if they were way too tight. Be sure and check them.

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running and has too high oil pressure??? - 05/25/10 12:32 PM

Posted By: emarine01

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/25/10 01:02 PM

Quote:

I really dont think its you... sounds like they have
a by-pass spring issue.... you put on 2 different pumps
only to have the same issue... I would say that takes
you out of the problem... you could cut the by-pass
spring down some.... or take the spring out of your
old pump(from the original pump that worked) clean
it and install it in your new pump.... and make sure
the little piston/cup moves freely

We had the same problem with HV melling in our small block, we swaped springs from a old pump and have 64 psi just about all the time, when the oil gets real hot it falls to 45 @ idle and goes right back to 64 with any rpm increase, good luck , pullin the pan was a PITA but solved the problem

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/25/10 07:49 PM

i'm trying to keep this on the 1st page so it's easy to find as i talked to the tech at melling again and told him to check it out. hopefully if there is a problem with the pumps they will address the issues!!! dave

Posted By: krw71ragtop

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/26/10 02:29 AM

Look what 100 psi did to the filter on the left.

I consider myself lucky I cought it. 416" sb

Attached picture 6003210-HPIM0116.JPG

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 05/26/10 02:35 AM

I have split a filter open with 100 lbs+ pressure, makes a mess

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 06/05/10 01:07 PM

just a quick up-date on my "too high oil pressure" issue. i waited till thursday of this week to hear back from george (the tech at melling), who was going to send me a "speced" out pump so i could eliminate the pump as being the problem. points were supposed to start this weekend so i wanted to be at the track to race so i installed the used pump i took out during the freshing of the motor and the high oil pressure problem has dissappeared (as i thought it would) motor now shows 65 lbs @ idle and goes to 75 when rpms are increased. sure looks like my contingency winnings were 2 falty pumps. i still am of the opinion that they need to be made aware of these problems (by the masses), they may be in denial but hopefully they will fix this issue. that or who else makes oil pumps for small block mopes? 1 source said ray barton said melling does not make the mopar performance 1s, but mp quality issues don't let me sleep well at nite either lol. dave

Posted By: dc426

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 06/05/10 01:37 PM

***update***

I changed to 5W-30 and made 16 passes with the car. When I first fire it up it's up there around 85+ but when it warms up it is 65 at idle. Wide open throttle making a pass it's 80 and after a pass coming back on the return road it's 50. So for now, I'm gonna leave it.

Posted By: 3ddart

Re: It's in, running ,has too high oil pressure**UPDATE - 06/05/10 02:24 PM

dc: i'm using the partial syth. brad penn 10/30 so i don't think it caused the problem. also i checked the rod clearence while changing the pump and it was .017. my pressure with the 2nd new pump was over 100 lbs when revving the motor. i'll run the old pump but would like some options for the future. dave

It's in, running and has too high oil pressure???