A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses.

Posted By: StrokerPost

A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 02:44 AM

Couple a guys were arguing today at work about whether or not a car with a roll BAR running 11.70's REQUIRES a harness at all. Obviously one says yes, the other says no. Can someone answer this from the 2010 rulebook? Thanks.
Ken.

Posted By: pro6pakRR

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:22 AM

If it has a bar,it's required to have a harness. At lease that was way it was when I was doing Tech.

Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:23 AM

Assuming we are talking about ET/handicap classes, according to the NHRA 2010 book, NO. A roll bar is not required untill 11.49 or quicker and the harness is "required" when a car is required to have a bar.

Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:25 AM

if it has factory seats dont need harness
w/fact floors /firewall

Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:26 AM

Quote:

If it has a bar it has to have harness

Not exactly. If it's required to have a bar it needs a harness. If you happen to have a bar in a car not going fast enough to require one you can use stock seat belts or even a 5 yr old harness

Posted By: 66coronet

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:14 PM

I would be careful with the 5yr old harness deal. That will all depend on whos tech you go through. I took an out of date set of belts and put them on my passenger seat and put the new ones on the drivers seat. The car is heavy as hell anyway and I liked the way it looked. I was told to take them out of the car. "Out of date means out of date, no matter which seat they are on" That was at Atlanta Dragway, so be careful. Not saying it is right or wrong.

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Posted By: Dodgem

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:28 PM

yea what the rule is and what your tech guy says often differ. we had one up hear saying 11.00 cars with 10 point bars had to have window net and that is not the rule??

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Posted By: Dodgem

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:30 PM

Posted By: Bad Boy

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:43 PM

The way it was explained to me by NHRA Tech is that if you have the equipment in the car, even if it's not required, then it has to comply with the rules for the equipment. If the car is not required to have a roll bar, but it does, the roll bar has to comply with the rules. Those rules say that the seat must be attached to the roll bar and the harness must also be attached and meet SFI 16-1 requirements.

Attached File

5963445-DRIVERRESTRAINTSYSTEM.docx (146 downloads)

Posted By: dizuster

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 03:47 PM

Clear is day. Car that REQUIRE a roll bar need belts. It doesn't say that cars WITH a roll bar needs belts.

And the outdated belt issue in a car that doesn't require a roll bar is also crystal clear in the 2nd post.

Posted By: RemCharger

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 05:09 PM

Quote:

The way it was explained to me by NHRA Tech is that if you have the equipment in the car, even if it's not required, then it has to comply with the rules for the equipment. If the car is not required to have a roll bar, but it does, the roll bar has to comply with the rules. Those rules say that the seat must be attached to the roll bar and the harness must also be attached and meet SFI 16-1 requirements.

After market seats only.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 05:49 PM

Contact your local track for thier rules on this

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 05:52 PM

Quote:

I would be careful with the 5yr old harness deal. That will all depend on whos tech you go through. I took an out of date set of belts and put them on my passenger seat and put the new ones on the drivers seat. The car is heavy as hell anyway and I liked the way it looked. I was told to take them out of the car. "Out of date means out of date, no matter which seat they are on" That was at Atlanta Dragway, so be careful. Not saying it is right or wrong.

If you take the passenger side belt SFI tag off they
will let it slide on that seat(from what I have seen
in the past)... also like BadBoy said, if it has a
bar(even if not required) you had to play the game
like it was required... thats what the tech guy said
to me

Posted By: 66coronet

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 07:17 PM

I pulled the belt off that seat. It wasnt worth the hassle. My car requires a cage and a cert, so I just pulled it out.

Posted By: Ron Silva

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 07:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would be careful with the 5yr old harness deal. That will all depend on whos tech you go through. I took an out of date set of belts and put them on my passenger seat and put the new ones on the drivers seat. The car is heavy as hell anyway and I liked the way it looked. I was told to take them out of the car. "Out of date means out of date, no matter which seat they are on" That was at Atlanta Dragway, so be careful. Not saying it is right or wrong.

If you take the passenger side belt SFI tag off they
will let it slide on that seat(from what I have seen
in the past)... also like BadBoy said, if it has a
bar(even if not required) you had to play the game
like it was required... thats what the tech guy said
to me

Boy, some of these TECh Guys are out there..... I have ALWAYS had an expired 5 way harness on my front Pass seat in my Demon and now the Valiant. I have NEVER had a TECH Guy even look at that seat much less the belt. And I have been a lot of places.

Why would they care?? Nobody can even RIDE there if your car is quicker than 13.99

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 08:39 PM

if you run quicker than 13.99 you wont have
a passenger so why even look at that seat... but
some of the techs do(dont know why)

Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 08:51 PM

Quote:

... but
some of the techs do(dont know why)

Power trip??

I have no problem takinng the rule book with me to tech and correcting them. I don't get argumentaive about it just calmy discuss the issue.

Posted By: ProStDodge

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/04/10 11:19 PM

Quote:

I have no problem taking the rule book with me to tech and correcting them. I don't get argumentative about it just calmly discuss the issue.

Discussions welcomed!

10:5 DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS

A quick-release, 3-inch driver restraint system, with a 2-inch crotch
strap, meeting SFI Spec 16.1 is mandatory in all cars in competition
required by the rules to have a roll bar or a roll cage. (Permitted in
all other classes.) A 3-inch SFI Spec 16.5 driver restraint system is
also acceptable wherever an SFI Spec 16.1 is mandatory or
permitted. Driver restraint system must be clearly labeled as
meeting SFI Spec 16.1 and be dated by manufacturer. See Class
Requirements for additional requirements for Top Fuel and Funny
Car. SFI Spec 16.1 Y-type belts prohibited. (In cases where the
class does not require an SFI 16.1 driver restraint system, the two-year
re-certification does not apply.) System must be updated at
two-year intervals from date of manufacture. All seat-belt and
shoulder harness hardware must be originally designed to be used
with each other and produced by the same manufacturer. Cars using OEM or OEM-type
seat may route crotch strap in front of seat instead of through seat.
Only units that release all five attachment points in one motion are
permitted. When arm restraints are worn with a restraint system
that utilizes a �latch lever,� a protective cover must be installed to
prevent arm restraint from accidentally releasing the latch lever.
Protective cover not required if system utilizes �duck-bill� latch
hardware. All harness sections must be mounted to the frame,
crossmember, or reinforced mounting, and installed to limit driver�s
body travel both upward and forward. Seat belts may not be
wrapped around lower framerails. Under no circumstances are bolts
inserted through belt webbing permitted for mounting. Check
manufacturer�s instructions.

10:11 SEAT BELTS
All cars not required by Class Requirements to use SFI 16.1 driver
restraint systems must be equipped with an accepted quick-release type
driver seat belt. Belts must be securely fastened to the frame,
crossmember, or reinforced mounting so that all fittings are in a
direct line with the direction of pull. Seat belts may not be wrapped
around lower framerails. Steel castings of the type recommended by
FAA or U-bolt-type mounts are permitted. If used for installation, flat
steel plates must be a minimum of 1/4-inch thickness and have
rounded edges to prevent cutting seat belts. Under no
circumstances can belts be installed with bolts through webbing. In
all cars with fiberglass floors, a crossmember (minimum 2-inch x 2-
inch x .083-inch wall thickness square tubing) must be installed
between framerails for proper driver�s seat-belt installation.

So, to answer Ken's original question - There is NO requirement to have a harness UNLESS a roll bar or cage is REQUIRED. At 11.70, the harness is optional (unless its a convertible or t-top).

It is certainly recommended to have a 5-point harness in any car with a roll bar as it helps prevent you from banging your head even in your 14sec street car.

And YES you may need your rule book handy to POLITELY indicate to the tech guy he may have mis-interpreted the rule.

Posted By: plasticfantastic

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/05/10 03:17 AM

just curious what it says in the rule book, (cant find mine right now) about cages/bars... skip over the belt section, go to the cage/roll bar section...

does it say that if you put a cage or bar in a car regardless if its needed you have to have belts?

I'll give you an example of how you cna find a rule one way in the book, and then in another section it trumps the rule you defend...

Stock eliminator, pickup (was a McCormack vehicle)... for the class it ran a rollbar wasnt required, in general regulations anything going faster then an 11.99 (at that time), had to have a bar.

Super Stock, not required to run a fire jacket in some classes, (and even pants), general regulations say that at 11.99 (at the time) and faster you need a fire jacket...

so which rule do you follow?

You put a bar or cage in the car for safety, so if something happens to you and you get in an accident do you want to be snug in there with belts and a harness, or are you ok with an ?? year old lap belt.
Spend the money get the safety equipment...

If your local track lets you get away without a belt/harness, then if youre ok with that ... good for you, but when you travel to another track and they dont let you race, you shouldnt be surprised.

Good luck with either way you decide to go.

if youre curious, call this number, ASK NHRA ... I'm sure everyone here is knowledgable, but youre getting different answers to your simple question, so call NHRA and ask them...
(626) 914-4761

Posted By: ProStDodge

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/05/10 03:50 AM

Doug - you are correct there are some sections, particularly in stock/super stock class racing, which will over-ride or trump E.T regs and general regs. However in this case, there is no stipulation in driver restraint, or roll bar requiring a harness with the use of a roll bar or cage in a car which is not required to have a roll bar.

And yes everyone is invited to call NHRA with any questions you may have.

The information I posted is correct according to all sections of the 2010 rule book, and all current revisions. Since I have recently been added to the Div #3 Safety Certifications team and am doing tech on cars at divisional races, not just local tracks, I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the rule book.

Scott

Posted By: 383man

383man - 05/05/10 05:37 AM

This is a tricky one for sure. I was told IF you have a rollbar then you have to have the harness. It is kinda dumb I guess to have a rollbar but only have a factory lap belt. Thats not going to keep you upper body from moving all around and your head from banging the bar. Thats the way I was told to take it but as said many tracks will see it different and I notice at T & T's around here the tech is not so tight.

I put a 5 point harness in when I put my 63 together even though it only ran 11.60's at first. I actually wanted a harness with the 6 point bar for myself. Ron

Posted By: plasticfantastic

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/05/10 06:02 AM

Quote:

Doug - you are correct there are some sections, particularly in stock/super stock class racing, which will over-ride or trump E.T regs and general regs. However in this case, there is no stipulation in driver restraint, or roll bar requiring a harness with the use of a roll bar or cage in a car which is not required to have a roll bar.

And yes everyone is invited to call NHRA with any questions you may have.

The information I posted is correct according to all sections of the 2010 rule book, and all current revisions. Since I have recently been added to the Div #3 Safety Certifications team and am doing tech on cars at divisional races, not just local tracks, I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the rule book.

Scott

NHRA/SFI Certified Tech here as well.

Never cared for working Divisionals, Nationals were ok... would rather race.
Maybe I'll see you at Norwalk?

Posted By: ProStDodge

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/05/10 07:29 AM

Quote:

NHRA/SFI Certified Tech here as well.

Never cared for working Divisionals, Nationals were ok... would rather race.
Maybe I'll see you at Norwalk?

I have been a "silver" SFI tech for about 4 years (bronze for 4 before that). Since I am no longer announcing for ORP, I figured I would joined up with the divisional team to keep my certification and get out to a few more races.

Building a new car now, but won't be done this year. Maybe next year!

Hope to be at Norwalk, but if not I'm sure we'll see ya at Columbus Mopar Nats!

Scott

Posted By: 66coronet

Re: A "rulebook" question about safety harnesses. - 05/06/10 07:25 PM

Quote:

Boy, some of these TECh Guys are out there..... I have ALWAYS had an expired 5 way harness on my front Pass seat in my Demon and now the Valiant. I have NEVER had a TECH Guy even look at that seat much less the belt. And I have been a lot of places.

Why would they care?? Nobody can even RIDE there if your car is quicker than 13.99

Welcome to Atlanta Dragway......

I never had an issue at any of the other tracks in the southeast. Like I said earlier, Just keep these type things in mind as you go through tech at different tracks.