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Roller rocker arms for 440 - pics added

Posted By: AutoEngineer

Roller rocker arms for 440 - pics added - 04/20/10 09:38 PM

Hey guys,

We're preparing a street/strip 440 for my friend's '69 Charger and I would need your recommendations for roller rocker arms choice

The 440 is currently as follows

Block: .055 overbored
Pistons: forged, measured CR about 9.8
Crank, rods & pistons precision balanced
Hydraulic cam: Comp Cams 21-225-4
Duration int/exh: 284/296, duration @ .050" Lift: 240/286, Valve Lift: 0.507/0.510, Cam Lobe-Center Angle: 110, but it was set at 106
Heads: 440Source, almost stock
Valve springs: Comp Cams 924-16, Seat load 112 @ 1.900, open load 355 @ 1.200
Intake: Eddy RPM
Headers: Hedman 1-3/4" primaries

We already bought a set of Proform rockers, but their quality was poor. Bushing machining was very very rough and the arm was a little bit too short to align perfectly with the valve tip.

What would you recommend to use with this setup 1.5 or 1.6 rockers and what brand???

I was looking for a set from ebag, PRW Rockers, but had never before heard from them. They looked nice in the picture, but I would not like to try them without any recommendations. The Proform set already was a disappointment, but it was rather cheap. Yes, I can ask myself, can you get good stuff with bottom low price



I would also like to have your opinion about the carb. We have a 750 cfm AVS Carter, but should I leave it on the shelf and buy a bigger carb?

All comments are more than wellcome



Here's link to PRW rockers and a picture PRW Rockers link

Attached picture 5937365-PRWrockers.jpg
Posted By: 440dart

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/20/10 10:52 PM

How much do you want to spend? Harland sharp would be a good choice, but not cheep! Crane Golds would be ok, if you can find them. Oh and leave the AVS on the shelf
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 12:05 AM

I would look for a set of Isky or Crane iron rockers.I'm using the Crane iron rockers on my 440 that is almost the same combo as yours.

750 Holley is what I'd use.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 12:13 AM

Been running Crane gold rollers for 15 years now on my 340 with 1000s of miles so far. Also put them on my 440 in 2005, so far so good. I also used Crane gold roller rockers on 572 chevy with dart 360 heads. They held up great and never broke and I ran that engine close to 8K RPM.
I think they are a good middle of the road rocker priced fairly. I can't believe HS rockers are so high, but I'm sure there's a reason.

Posted By: 383man

383man - 04/21/10 05:29 AM

Quote:

I would look for a set of Isky or Crane iron rockers.I'm using the Crane iron rockers on my 440 that is almost the same combo as yours.

750 Holley is what I'd use.



Yep thats what I use on my 63's 440. In fact my combo is close to yours but I have iron 906 heads and the MP .557 cam. Same hedman headers and the Holley Street Dominator intake. I use an 850 DP as I had my buddy loan me a brand new one and it works so good I made him a deal and kept it. I drive it alot on the street as thats 90 % of the driving on the car. But it never fouls plugs. In fact I ran my best of 11.49 last Oct with plugs that had been in the car for over a year. So I like the basic 850 DP. I have the Isky 1.5 iron ductile rockers and they work good. I got them used for a real good price and like I said they work real good. You wont really go faster with roller rockers if you go any faster at all. But roller rockers are much easier on the valve train parts and the valve guides. I guess you have to ask yourself if its worth the extra money for the roller rockers. Ron
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: 383man - 04/21/10 01:15 PM

Roller rockers are one of the worst possible places to try to save money. That deserves repeating, Roller rockers are one of the worst possible places to try to save money.

I would use Isky or Crane Iron rockers instead of cheap roller rockers, every time. If you want/need rollers then you need to spend a lot more to get decent ones. Hughes, Crane Gold, Rockerarm Specialist & Harland Sharp come to mind for a mid range rocker. But honestly I think any roller rocker is unnecessary overkill with your cam. I have seen plenty of MP 509 cams run fine with stock stamped rockers but the rocker ratio is a little low with them and will likely cost a little power. I use Isky iron with a cam that has slightly less duration and slightly more lift than yours. The same set of rockers were used with .590 lift for several years with no problems but at that point one of the rollers mentioned above may be more appropriate.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 03:51 PM

If you really want a decent set of true aluminumm roller rockers , not a set of extruded roller tip rockers then buy a set of Harland Sharps or T&D. Niether set will be cheap, another option, especially for wht your doing is to buy a used set of ductile iron rockers and send them to R.A.S. (Rocker Arm Specialitys) and have them blueprint, bushed and change the ratio to 1.6
Way better way to go than buy a cheap set of aluminum non rolle rockers
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 04:20 PM

I didn't even mention T&D and Jessel rockers for 2 reasons.
1. you seem to be looking for a budget solution and they aren't it
2. Horrendous overkill for your engine.

IMHO even the Sharps are overkill for this engine. I have Sharps on the shelf and Iskys in the motor.

Cab: How much $$ does RAS want to fixup the iron rockers like you described? How does the tip alignment and scrub look after changing the ratio?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 04:27 PM

You could probably get by with the stock rockers for that build. I got a set of Scat rollers at Carlise a few years ago for $150 new.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 04:33 PM

Quote:



Cab: How much $$ does RAS want to fixup the iron rockers like you described? How does the tip alignment and scrub look after changing the ratio?

I haven't had a set done in over eight years so on the price it's better to call them. They correct the tips , all three sets that I had done came out better on the tip alignment and scrub than any stock set of ductile iron uncorrected ones I've seen or had. I think that RAS is the only company that most NHRA stock class racers use to fix there ductile iron rockers, oops, maybe I shouldn't have let that cat out of the bag
Posted By: fury62

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 04:58 PM

check out CV products in NC, got the best price for T&D rockers ask for the online discount that's 5% more savings
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 05:38 PM

Yea, lets put $900 rocker arms on a .510 lift hydraulic cam.
Posted By: 512 VALIANT

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 05:46 PM

Hughes makes a good rocker and not as expensive as harland sharp here is the link
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/produ...mp;partid=22770
I run the 1.6:1 on my 505 13.1 comp 700+hp solid roller car.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 05:50 PM

Just use stock rocker arms on that cam.
Posted By: 512 VALIANT

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 05:57 PM

Quote:

Yea, lets put $900 rocker arms on a .510 lift hydraulic cam.


I agree (even after rec hughes brand) this is mild build there is no reason for high $ rockers. Also the 750 cfm should be fine.
Posted By: Harley

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 06:00 PM

Quote:

Yea, lets put $900 rocker arms on a .510 lift hydraulic cam.


LOL. Yea $ 900.00 rockers on $ 900.00 heads.
Posted By: jamesc

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 06:19 PM

if you really want adjustable rockers for that setup i'd look around for a clean used set of isky's or cranes as even these are expensive or harder to find new. shame there was a guy had a set of iskys in the moparts parts section for $100 but i'll bet they're gone now
Posted By: AutoEngineer

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 06:37 PM

Hi guys, thanx a lot for your answers

I have now much more ideas.

We have had some kind of budget and already have exceeded it , but the target is to make it right at once. Aim is to have such combo that will deliver many many years of care-free miles.

And first of all, BEAT the buddy's neighbour's FORD that is running high 12's. The FORD guy been burning sooo much tire at the front of our MOPAR garage that now it must come to an end.
Don't take this too seriously, but half true


OK, enough for joking, now back to the facts of this topic.

T&D, Jesel and Sharps are out of the budget.

Nobody was suggesting the 440 Source rockers, I guess why
I was looking at them at an other buddy's garage and I didn't like the tiny needle bearings they have. Some other brands seem to have alike too, like Cat. I have earlier heard that the fulcrum needle bearings have caused excessive wear on the rocker shaft?

I was also comparing the prices of ductile iron Isky and Crane, but they seem to more pricey than the Crane Gold set, even at shop list prices without any discounts.

Locally I could have a set of 1.6 Crane Gold rockers at an attactive price.

Most of the BB Mopar roller rocker sets seem to have offset rockers, left and right, but the PRW's look like they all are identical. Has anyone experience from them?

Would you prefer 1.5 or 1.6 ratio?

I forgot from the first mail some important specs of the car:
Converter: 2800 stall
Rear end: 3.73 or 3.91

What do you experts say, could this combo be enough to run high or mid 12's?

I know Charger is heavy, so should we break the piggy bank to increase the budget
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 06:46 PM

Look in the engines and race parts for sale sections on this site.I'm sure there was a set of iron Crane's or Isky's for sale.

If that Charger doesn't run 12.40's at least,something is dead wrong.I think it will run faster.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 07:28 PM

We had a similar combo in a 64 Plymouth with steel heads and just ran the HD stamped rockers from Mopar Performance. With 3.91's the car weighed 3350 w/o driver and ran 11.70's in good air through a 3" exhaust. Get an 850 DP if you plan to race it alot. Smoke that Ford!
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 07:35 PM

Why waste your money, just use stock stamped rocker arms. That cam is barely bigger than a factory cam, no need to get trick with the rocker arms. Listen to the advice people are giving you, save your money for something that matters.
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 08:25 PM

Put stock rockers on it.

Then, take the money you saved and spend it on a a higher stall converter, sticky tires, an 850 carb etc.

Either way, the money's spent....pick your poison
Posted By: BobR

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 08:30 PM

Quote:

Why waste your money, just use stock stamped rocker arms. That cam is barely bigger than a factory cam, no need to get trick with the rocker arms. Listen to the advice people are giving you, save your money for something that matters.



With all due respect, Andy, I've broken dozens of Chrysler stamped steel rockers in my E/sa Duster. I had to use them back when I was racing in stock eliminator. I wouldn't use those things on my lawn mower. Crane Gold's are the best bang for the budget being discussed here.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 10:31 PM

I would imagine that a E/SA motor gets wound a little tighter than what this guy will be doing. The engine build sounds so mild to me that I can't see him wasting money on aftermarket parts.
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/21/10 11:17 PM

Andy... But if he wants Isky 1.5s on the cheap...missing one spring...I know where there is a set!!
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 01:15 AM

Quote:

Why waste your money, just use stock stamped rocker arms. That cam is barely bigger than a factory cam, no need to get trick with the rocker arms. Listen to the advice people are giving you, save your money for something that matters.



Buddy ran 11.70's all day in a 67 GTX w/ a 509 and 4.10's. Stock rockers and shafts. I ran 12.0's in 67 coronet 440 all day stock rockers and shafts. If you do anything just run the old school ductiles
Posted By: forphorty

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 04:45 AM

another vote here for stock rockers.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 04:56 AM

If this is just a simple Hyd flat cam read on..
I know my opinion isnt worth but just a few penny's, but I cant believe anyone hasnt asked why such high spring pressure for a simple Hyd flat tappet cam?
I mean for a engine that wont see or I should say cant see much over 6K...Why all the suggestions for $1000+ rocker arms?

I would just use a good set of HD stock rocker arms.

I mean 350 lbs open pressure on a MP 509 equivalent cam...

That engine doesnt need much over 100 lbs seat and 225-250 lbs open pressure, and he wont eat parts from race to race.

I can say this..they are 99% better than the proform junk
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 10:41 AM

Quote:

If this is just a simple Hyd flat cam read on..
I know my opinion isnt worth but just a few penny's, but I cant believe anyone hasnt asked why such high spring pressure for a simple Hyd flat tappet cam?
I mean for a engine that wont see or I should say cant see much over 6K...Why all the suggestions for $1000+ rocker arms?

I would just use a good set of HD stock rocker arms.

I mean 350 lbs open pressure on a MP 509 equivalent cam...

That engine doesnt need much over 100 lbs seat and 225-250 lbs open pressure, and he wont eat parts from race to race.

I can say this..they are 99% better than the proform junk



LOL that open pressure was at .700 lift and he doesn't have anywhere near that.

Like I said in my earlier post, Stock rockers will work fine. Buy used Isky or Crane iron rockers if you want something better and adjustable. Roller rockers are unnecessary for this build and just something else to fail. But if you insist on rollers DO NOT buy cheap junk.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 11:28 AM

Those PRW rockers might be worth tying in a mild motor? They look like they may be re-branded CAT rockers (at least they are the same price.)

A member of our car club is running the 1.7:1 aluminum CAT rockers on a mild 440, and so far has had no problems?
Posted By: BobR

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 01:23 PM

Quote:

I would imagine that a E/SA motor gets wound a little tighter than what this guy will be doing. The engine build sounds so mild to me that I can't see him wasting money on aftermarket parts.



Shifted at 7000. The pushrod cup use to get knocked out of them like it was stamped out and the pushrod would go up and down in the hole without opening the valve.
Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 02:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would imagine that a E/SA motor gets wound a little tighter than what this guy will be doing. The engine build sounds so mild to me that I can't see him wasting money on aftermarket parts.



Shifted at 7000. The pushrod cup use to get knocked out of them like it was stamped out and the pushrod would go up and down in the hole without opening the valve.




I had that happen twice on a bone stock 68 383 RR engine, that never topped 5,000 rpm My

Mark
Posted By: 440dart

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/22/10 10:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would imagine that a E/SA motor gets wound a little tighter than what this guy will be doing. The engine build sounds so mild to me that I can't see him wasting money on aftermarket parts.



Shifted at 7000. The pushrod cup use to get knocked out of them like it was stamped out and the pushrod would go up and down in the hole without opening the valve.




I had that happen twice on a bone stock 68 383 RR engine, that never topped 5,000 rpm My

Mark



And that is why would not use stock rockers on any high performance motor Jack.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/23/10 12:30 AM

Who is it that posted a picture of his push rod sticking thru his rocker? He posted it recently but I can't find the thread now.
Posted By: Chilort

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/23/10 01:46 AM

Harland Sharp rockers don't cost $1k. They are slightly over $600.

Price up a set of the other brands (IF you can find them ... Mopar ductile iron rockers haven't been offered for a bit). Then make sure you add in hardened shafts (come with the HS kit). Then add in the hold downs (come with the HS kit). Then add in any spacers or springs (come with the HS kit). Then add in bushing or other fitting services (not necessary with the HS kit).... by the time it is all said and done the Harland Sharp rockers come in within 10% of the other brands listed here.

If I could have found the Mopar ductile iron rockers when I did my build that is what I would have used because I'm not using a super aggressive cam either. But when I went looking they weren't making them.
Posted By: AutoEngineer

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/23/10 04:48 PM

Thanx a lot for all your comments

From stamped steel rockers I have so many bad earlier experiences. Pushrods hitting their way up through the cup.

Yup, it's not worth of using close to $900 rockers on $900 heads and mild combo.

When bought the set of Proforms, it honestly was a wrong decision. You just can't buy a cheap and a good in a same package. If you want, you have to buy them separately, and it will cost more money than buying the good at first. In our case we had the possibility to return the Proforms back to the Speed Shop.

Find enclosed a picture from the Proforms. 14 of the set of 16 were similar and having blue anodization on the bearing surface.

Harland Sharp rockers are having large fulcrum needle bearings between the arm and the shaft. I'm a little bit afraid how they stand against wear. Maybe I shouldn't, but 440Source set is having similar construction and I have seen one that had had excessive wear on shafts and arm bearings after only a few 100 miles.

Ductile iron rockers, for sure they are bullet proof, but are they causing more wear to the valve tip and valve guides than rollers??? And a little bit higher mass inertia I know this inertia issue is not a critical characteristic on this combo, but it just came to mind when thinking pros and cons

Attached picture 5942663-Proformrockers.jpg
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/23/10 04:55 PM

As far as the wear issues w/ HS`s, I`ve been street driving and racing mine for over 5 years and they`re still going strong w/a solid roller w/580+ lbs open pressures for what it`s worth.
Posted By: AutoEngineer

Re: Roller rocker arms for 440 - 04/23/10 04:59 PM

Here's one picture from the Proform arm after "shimmed" the shaft with some temporary plastic shims. Without those "shims" the rocker arm was hardly facing the valve tip, it was almost on the edge of tip.

Sorry about the quality of pic

These Proforms were returned via the local Speed Shop I guess back to China

Attached picture 5942676-Proformonshaft.jpg
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