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New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s ***ADDED W5 DYNO RESULTS***

Posted By: RyanJ

New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s ***ADDED W5 DYNO RESULTS*** - 04/17/10 01:45 AM

Local shop I do alot of work with here in State College was bought out & is under new ownership as of 1/1/10... New owner is into tractor pulling motors (BB GM's, 500's & 540's) & first thing he did was order new Dyno & put in all new cell etc. They are still working some bugs out, but finally got to make some pulls today... this is only 3rd motor to go on this dyno, so don't have alot of feedback on it yet, but I felt good after today that the #'s seem to be real close to reality... The #'s were about 1% higher than what I would expect this motor to make.

First 2 motors on were a real mild 350 GM to break in dyno & have Stuska rep do the training on.... made 349 HP. Typical 750 Holley, mild FT cam, single plane Edelbrock, 10.5:1, iron heads, headers, & some type of big truck/race oil pan (motor was for some type of stock iron head Baja 500 class deal)

Next motor was 501" BB GM pulling truck motor that seemed to disappoint.... CNC Brodix heads, 2.30 valves, Lunati Roller, like .760" 288 @ .050", Team G Dominator intake, 1150 on methanol, 14:1, dry sump etc.... 720 HP/615 TQ. They are going to change ignition/mag & carb & do some more work on it next week....

So I went into today not sure what I'd see #'s wise... I figured it would make 590-610 On The SF902 I used to use @ Rider racing based off of all my other motors...

This is a motor for a Dirt modified out of Arkansas... (8" tire on 3/8 mile dirt track) Rules are pretty much, iron block, iron head, flat tappet cam, single carb, cast intake... & that's about it. Owner did not want hassle of dry sump... so we went internal pump/pan... Also he dictated that I run a 3.58" stroke, & gasoline.... other than that, I had fairly free will to do what I wanted (within budget)

Motor is... R3 48* Siamese 9.56 block @ 4.185" bore
Kevko off shelf dirt track pan/pickup/Melling M72HV
Has SCAT 44.5 lb Ultralight 3.58" crank, 2.10" journal
Callies Compstar 6.5" rods
Custom Diamond FT pistons, Strutted skirts, H13 Tool steel pins, lateral gas ports, .043 rings
Cam is Custom Comp flat tappet, based off of .875 Ford lobes, 262/266 @ .050", .627" on 108.
Ferrea Tool Steel lifters, Manton 3/8 P rods .120" wall
PSI CT 1225 springs, CV Ti retainers etc.
1.65/1.6 T&D rockers
MP W2 heads, 48.5 CC closed chamber 15* valve angle, 2.055"/1.60" Ferrea Comp Plus valves, Stage 3 SDSS port
INDY 360-3O intake
850 Wilson Gas carb
MP Mechanical water pump & Craftsman truck fuel pump

New Dyno has Dual Lambda sensors & I have EGT's in my dyno headers now, so we were able to monitor it a little better than on the SF902.

I don't have the stuska software on my home computer, so can't easily do a screen capture of the actual pulls, but basically made what I thought it would...

621 HP @ 7100 RPM
513 TQ @ 5800 RPM

TQ is 500+ from 4900-6500

Best #'s were @ 34 timing (ran 112 Sunoco in it)
With a Wilson 1" tapered spacer & had to knock quite bit of jet out of the Wilson 850 to get AF down & EGT's up some.

Was happy with fuel dist. with the INDY intake, EGT's were very consistent from cyl to cyl... #3 was by far the coldest in the mid 1250's... But the rest were floating in 1350 range.

We are going to dyno Andre Holoch's new 4" crank W5 motor tomorrow (one Jimi Vignogna built & posted some pics of a few months back) It should make some good #'s I think.... Will give us some more good info on this dyno. I think we can crack the 700 mark with it, but I don't know all the specs on it, other than the heads & compression, I'll ask more tomorrow & post the results... (nice to be able to work with a shop that allows dynoing on weekends as well)

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:47 AM

Oh & no comments about the cobbled up dyno oil filter & mechanical fuel system.... Not often I dyno an external filter motor that has no motor plate... & this is first mechanical fuel pump motor I've ever ran on dyno.... What a pain.

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:48 AM

1928

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:55 AM

Coated bearings

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:56 AM

Piston/Rod

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:58 AM

SCAT ultralight 4340...advertised @ 45 lbs, came in @ 44.5

Took 1/2" slug in front & 3/4 in rear to balance... very nice piece for the $. I'll be using some of their Ultralight 4" in the future.

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:59 AM

CNC undercut CW's

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 02:00 AM

Ferrea 66 Gram Tool Steel EDM lifters & .028" oil feed hole in lifter bushings...

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 02:01 AM

Did a CNC max lighten package on the R3 block. 181 lbs with 4 bolt caps when done.

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 02:02 AM

Lightening

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Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 02:04 AM

Last one for tonight... have to be @ shop @ 7:30 AM to prep for W5 dyno tomorrow.

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Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 02:11 AM

Thats nice power from a little iron head, flat cam deal.
Posted By: MIKES_DUSTER

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 03:12 AM

Nice motor and nice numbers!!!! How much compression??
Posted By: greendart408

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 03:49 AM

Nice...
I never get tired of seeing sb combos and dyno #s from them. Are you going to post the combo and #s from the 5 motor????
Posted By: DavidDean

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 04:30 AM

Thanks for another great post,very impressive.
Posted By: 72demon416

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 04:37 AM

Quote:

Nice...
I never get tired of seeing sb combos and dyno #s from them.






Those are some decent numbers allright
Posted By: emarine01

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:44 PM

Thankx RJ, Good info as always Did ya ever do the 430 W5 with the LP intake?
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 01:57 PM

Quote:

Local shop I do alot of work with here in State College was bought out & is under new ownership as of 1/1/10... New owner is into tractor pulling motors (BB GM's, 500's & 540's) & first thing he did was order new Dyno & put in all new cell etc.


Wow, spent a lot of money on a new dyno, what did they do with the old one? Did he mention why the change?

If you work with them enough, perhaps you can work out getting the dyno sheets in some electronic form to post (when owner allows). A simpler scanner of the paper output can be put on a memory stick to take home (or email). I like my "3 in 1" printer, scanner, copier.
Posted By: SB449VALIANT

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/17/10 04:45 PM

Quote:

Did a CNC max lighten package on the R3 block. 181 lbs with 4 bolt caps when done.




Nice! that's like 60+/- lbs off
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 12:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Local shop I do alot of work with here in State College was bought out & is under new ownership as of 1/1/10... New owner is into tractor pulling motors (BB GM's, 500's & 540's) & first thing he did was order new Dyno & put in all new cell etc.


Wow, spent a lot of money on a new dyno, what did they do with the old one? Did he mention why the change?

If you work with them enough, perhaps you can work out getting the dyno sheets in some electronic form to post (when owner allows). A simpler scanner of the paper output can be put on a memory stick to take home (or email). I like my "3 in 1" printer, scanner, copier.




No no, they did not HAVE an engine dyno before January '10. They used to have a chassis dyno years ago... New owner wanted an engine dyno (rightfully so) as he wants to start doing alot more performance oriented stuff..

I've done over 1/2 million $ in business with this shop since my Brother started SDSS in fall of 2003 so I think I work with them enough for them to allow me to do pretty much whatever I want within reason. LOL

Speaking of that LG runner M1 W5 intake... I'll post today's W5 results here in a few minutes...
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:01 AM

Andre brought his 416" W5 down from NY this AM & we proceeded to fight with carb issues all day, but finally got some stuff sorted out.

I did'nt really know many specs on his motor until today, I only did the heads for it a couple years ago & he built it himself with some help from Jimi V.

Apparently it's a 59* R1 block @ 4.07 bore, with a 4" callies crank... Steel rods, JE pistons ~13:1, custom Charlies pan, moroso 3 vane vac pump... Stock Car products external oil pump, moroso electric water pump...

Cam is a Bullet Solid Roller... & is not exactly what I would have ground but... I think if I recall correctly it's like 278/282 @ .050", .648"/.648" on 110 LSA. He said they put it in @ 109 LSA.... Actual lift he said was .610" @ valve. 1.5 T&D rockers....

Heads are old 1st Gen W5's, I hand ported & apparently have a 2.02 valve in, which is kind of unusual (I usually put a 2.08 in almost all 5's), but that's what he had when he brought me the heads to use...Castings are very porous & I was not able to go crazy on ports, they are just a nice conservative set of 5's

MP M1 LG runner intake 4150 flange, just port matched...

Ran 4 different carbs on it... His 1050 Dominator, new 8896 ontop of a 2" HVH tapered 4150-4500 adapter...

The 850 Wilson that I ran on 394 Dirt motor yesterday...(GREAT carb)

A customers new JP performance 1050 4150 series billet deal (1st run time it has seen)

& some 950 variant of Jimi Vignogna's

Andre's 1050 had a bunch of crap in it & made bad 1st pull... Put the 850 wilson on & got some good pulls, tuned timing, liked 35 best.

Total seal gapless rings took 4 pulls to seat was'nt thrilled with them..

Put vacuum pump on, picked up 30 HP....

Put 1050 JP carb on.... one pull, motor sounded horrible, power off.... Put 950 Vignogna on.... was'nt as bad as the 1050 JP, but was'nt anything special & still did not sound right.

Put 850 wilson back on to get back to our baseline & motor came right back around, sounded good...

Cleaned out the 1050 8896 Dominator & put it back on, & power came up a tad.... I think best with the 850 Wilson (slightly rich, never jetted it) was 647?

& we messed with the 1050 Dom & got 658 out of it... it is still not great carb, the EGT's were off much further spread with the 4500 than with the 4150 stuff. Would have probably picked up another 10-15 with a good Dominator on it.

The LG runner M1 just killed the TQ.... even being 416" with 13:1, it could not deal with it. The TQ per inch, VS: the 394 Flat tappet W2 is unsettling. The TQ peaks are also pretty darn high for 4" crank motor.... That is combo of 110 LSA cam in @ 109 & the massive plenum of the M1 LG runner. An INDY would really put some TQ in it & move powerband down a bit & probably broaden it...

I think 1.65 rockers, to crank up ramp speed, knock ~6 degrees duration out of cam, pull LSA back to 108, in @ 103-104, bump lift into the low .700's advertised, an INDY manifold converted to 4500 flange & a little better 4500 carb & you'd see a 720 HP/565 TQ piece. But it will do what he wants it to I think... his car is light enough to run where he wants to.

Anyhow....

658HP @ 7100 RPM
528TQ @ 5800 RPM

I was little disapointed in the power, but after looking over the combo, it seems like it made just about what the combo is capable of? As soon as he handed me the cam card, & I asked what rocker ratio it had on it.... & then glanced down & saw the Lg runner intake this morning I was a little leery about making a power prediction...

Anyhow, did'nt break anything & made decent HP #'s always a good day.






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Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:14 AM

Posted By: all spooled up

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:27 AM

Posted By: tboomer

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:29 AM

Quote:

Anyhow, did'nt break anything & made decent HP #'s always a good day.


Way to go Ryan!!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:51 AM

Those are still some pretty stout numbers for what
he has in it
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 08:35 AM

this is some intresting stuff
Posted By: emarine01

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:40 PM

Good info, I wonder what it would have done with a 2,08 intake valve, The LG runner mani with the 2.02 valve seems counter productive
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 01:43 PM

The intake valve diameter VS: the plenum size/runner entry CSA has very little, if nothing to do with each other. It may have made a hair more power with a 2.08, but TQ still would have been way down. It's off by at least 20-25 MINIMUM
Posted By: emarine01

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 02:16 PM

Quote:

The intake valve diameter VS: the plenum size/runner entry CSA has very little, if nothing to do with each other. It may have made a hair more power with a 2.08, but TQ still would have been way down. It's off by at least 20-25 MINIMUM


Using as few words as possible can you explain
Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 02:27 PM

I would love to see you test an SV1 carb

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Posted By: Streetwize

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 03:01 PM

Great info Ryan!!

Based on what you see here, what would you expect a typical 408 (4.03 x 4.00) 360 based shortblock with the exact same components to make?

This 394" has a big bore short stroke long rod ratio combo which should be ideal for horsepower with a more killer set of heads, right? I know the torque peak with this motor will be at a higher RPM than a 408 but I'm willing to bet the HP will be equal or slightly greater becasue this cube combination runs "happier" above the torque peak.... less internal frictional HP losses (less side load and lower piston speed)each 100rpm gain above peak torque.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 03:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The intake valve diameter VS: the plenum size/runner entry CSA has very little, if nothing to do with each other. It may have made a hair more power with a 2.08, but TQ still would have been way down. It's off by at least 20-25 MINIMUM


Using as few words as possible can you explain


Hey come on now, Remember I am a old diesel guy, We don't suck thru the ports We tend to blow so this csa thing is kinda new to me, how about some help here
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 05:04 PM

Quote:

Great info Ryan!!

Based on what you see here, what would you expect a typical 408 (4.03 x 4.00) 360 based shortblock with the exact same components to make?

This 394" has a big bore short stroke long rod ratio combo which should be ideal for horsepower with a more killer set of heads, right? I know the torque peak with this motor will be at a higher RPM than a 408 but I'm willing to bet the HP will be equal or slightly greater because this cube combination runs "happier" above the torque peak.... less internal frictional HP losses (less side load and lower piston speed)each 100rpm gain above peak torque.




A 408 using the exact same components?

TQ per inch I think would stay same, the larger stroke, smaller bore, larger inch motor would make little less HP/inch based on my previous findings so...

I'd expect 530 TQ @ ~5100 RPM, 630 HP @ ~6800 RPM

Only reason I did long rod in this thing, is because A. Dirt track owners like long rods, & B. it made for nice short piston. I was'nt trying to achieve any "magic" with the 6.5 rods. They are just there to eat up unnecessary deck height, I knew I wanted to use a CompStar rod in it based on his budget, & looked in catalog for longest 2.10" journal rod they had & viola! 6.50 rod....

On the manifold being too big for the heads/intake valve on the W5.... the CSA of the runners of the manifold in the plenum (@ the divider area) is just too big for the CSA of the cyl head. Too large amount of taper from runner entry in plenum to runner exit @ head.

W5 is not normally a "large" CSA cyl head (depending on how you do the intake port) Especially this old porous set, I do not have ports "jumbo"

"generally" if intake is too big for heads/combo, the power will be about right, but TQ will be way off. If intake is too small, TQ will be good, & power will be low on top & perhaps peak RPM will be achieved a bit early.. When intake is right (see the 394) Both Power & TQ come in good & come in @ predictable RPM's (cam does play good bit of role in that tough as well, as I'm sure you know, it's all about combination, combination, combination, it all has to work well together to be "right")

Valve diameter @ 2.02" is actually pretty good for a 4.07" bore motor. Valve diameter is usually just selected based on bore of block & throat area in intake bowl size you want & overall bowl size (also what physically FITS in cyl head). Usually I do use a 2.08 in a W5, but like I said, he already had a good new set of 2.02's for it & that's what he wanted to use. The valve size is not hampering power much, & is certainly not hurting TQ, if anything, the smaller valve/port size would HELP TQ (to a point) A change in rocker ratio would have been easiest way to really help motor out power wise, & change in intake would be easiest to put some TQ back in it. There was an issue W/ piston to valve clearance, that is reason for the 1.5 rocker I was told.

I would use more 2.055's in W5's sometimes, but Ferrea does not have great selection of 2.055's until you move to Comp Plus & even then they often don't have length you want, & to do one you have to cut down 2.08's... just a pain & customer does not always like the extra $ involved in resizing OD of valves, refacing 45's to re-set margin & re-back cutting etc. Gets to be expensive when all is said & done.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/18/10 07:27 PM

Thankx Ryan for the info, What did they have in mind when they made the LR intake, large bore short stroke and major RPMs
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: New Dyno.... 394 W2 #'s - 04/19/10 12:29 AM

Quote:

Thankx Ryan for the info, What did they have in mind when they made the LR intake, large bore short stroke and major RPMs




Oh I think they just threw something together to actually be able to sell a "W5" intake... when they first released heads, there was no intake for them. Then they realized the LG runner was a piece of junk, & did another band aid, by changing bolt pattern on the M1 small runner Spreadbore intake...

One thing I have realized when working with this stuff every day, if it has the word MOPAR cast on it, it's GOING to give you problems... I won't even go into the MP nascar water pump we had to weld up & resurface on the dyno on that 394, & the #1 main cap that seems to be screwed up now on every 48* tall deck I get etc etc. I told Andre, you want to know what is wrong with that intake? It's that big MOPAR logo on the runners...
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