Question about degreeing cam in car

Posted By: 602heavy

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/08/10 08:23 PM

Quote:

If you have never advance a 509 (108) 4 degree you have no idea how much difference it makes "I do" and it's huge. now if you have a 4200 to 4500 stall you will not see as much but a 2800 to 3000 it's huge!!!

If the motor picked up as much as you are saying with 4* advance i would think it would of faired better with a smaller cam , if the motor picks up when retarded then the motor is teling you the cam is too small , i realise moving ICL around can pose different results , in saying this these cams are tried & tested so the manu will know where this cam will make best power , maybe it was'nt suited for you're application?

Advancing ICL for improved low end power will more oftn than not suffer on the big end.

Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/08/10 08:35 PM

Don't forget to pull ALL the spark plugs.

You'll thank yourself for that one.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/08/10 11:29 PM

[

If the motor picked up as much as you are saying with 4* advance i would think it would of faired better with a smaller cam , if the motor picks up when retarded then the motor is teling you the cam is too small , i realise moving ICL around can pose different results , in saying this these cams are tried & tested so the manu will know where this cam will make best power , maybe it was'nt suited for you're application?

Advancing ICL for improved low end power will more oftn than not suffer on the big end.

Top end power is above 6000 RPM for this cam since you run 3000 to 6000 3 times while never going over 6000 it's all gain gain.
many cams give great results advancing them from suggested intake install.
I have done it a lot and only got gains advancing the cam??

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/08/10 11:35 PM

You don't even need to remove the carb & intake. Just the front and the drivers side valve cover.

Posted By: 602heavy

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/09/10 12:19 AM

I've used the MP single pattern grinds with tight lobe seps (108), i always made more mid to upper power with the cam installed straight up , the motors were low compression 9.5/10.1 , i put this down to the later opening ex valve due to the tighter lobe sep , advancing the cam opened the exhaust valve sooner which bled down cylinder pressure , maybe with a higher compression motor the earlier opening ex valve would help due to the faster burn rate , just my thoughts nothing else.....................always made more power with tighter lobe sep/lower compression , this is where custom grinds come into there own.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/09/10 12:32 AM

Decisions....decisions. Advancing the cam to 103 or 102 is really only going to cost me time so I guess it is worth a try. But on the other hand I have heard so many times that the 509 is an "old" grind and there are so many better options around now.

Lunati recommended their 60304 Voodoo cam. The specs were:

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533; LSA/ICL: 110/106

I haven't gotten through to Comp yet to see what they would recommend. My set-up is..

446ci
10:1
TRW six-pak pistons
Eddy dual plane intake
Eddy 84cc heads
825 Mighty Demon
727 w/10" 3000 stall Turbo Action vert
4:10 gears
3600lb. car

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/09/10 03:30 AM

Quote:

Decisions....decisions. Advancing the cam to 103 or 102 is really only going to cost me time so I guess it is worth a try. But on the other hand I have heard so many times that the 509 is an "old" grind and there are so many better options around now.

Lunati recommended their 60304 Voodoo cam. The specs were:

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533; LSA/ICL: 110/106

I haven't gotten through to Comp yet to see what they would recommend. My set-up is..

446ci
10:1
TRW six-pak pistons
Eddy dual plane intake
Eddy 84cc heads
825 Mighty Demon
727 w/10" 3000 stall Turbo Action vert
4:10 gears
3600lb. car

That Voodoo cam is low on duration but has extra lift. IMO the low duration will give you extra torgue which you need and the extra lift with your Eddy heads will give you some HP.

But I think the Extra duration 248* of the MP cam will trump that by a Bunch!! And advancing the MP 509 from 108* if thats where your really at to 102 to 104 will give you a Bunch more of low end torque witch you really need with that 3000 stall vert.

IMO, Advance the cam you have First, Its a Great cam! mike

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/09/10 02:56 PM

I could have wrote this! LOL!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 03:26 AM

I have a valve cover and the intake off. Dial indicator is set up and degree wheel is bolted to the crank. I hope to find out where the cam is currently set sometime tomorrow. This is a lot more work than I thought it would be but then again isn't that always the case. I sure hope it is worth it in the end.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 03:33 AM

Don't forget to put a solid lifter in there and set the lash at zero or close to it before doing the checking

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 11:49 AM

I have a solid lifter in place. Set lash at zero? I pulled the rockers and the dial indicator is reading directly off of a modified pushrod that I have. That will work....right?

Regarding those offset bushings...how do they install for advance? I read somewhere that the fat part of the bushing goes "up" by my bro-in-law told me the fat part goes to the "left". I am sure I can figure out through trial and error but if anyone here know it will save me a little time.

Thanks

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 12:08 PM

Looking at it from the front, ta-da left. Be interested to know where it is at before you make any changes. You should too.

Posted By: 602heavy

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 12:19 PM

Some cam gears need drilling out to except the offset bushings , looking @ the front of engine cam will go clockwise for advance , so 'fat' part of bushing will go toward the top , you can usually get a good idea on where that cam was installed , with the motor @ TDC ex stroke the intake/ex lifters will have the same height , any advance will show the intake lifter having more lift , just be sure you dialed the motor in for TDC , any variance from this will render the degreeing useless.

Good luck.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 01:39 PM

Quote:

I have a solid lifter in place. Set lash at zero? I pulled the rockers and the dial indicator is reading directly off of a modified pushrod that I have. That will work....right?

Regarding those offset bushings...how do they install for advance? I read somewhere that the fat part of the bushing goes "up" by my bro-in-law told me the fat part goes to the "left". I am sure I can figure out through trial and error but if anyone here know it will save me a little time.

Thanks

fat to the left to advance and fat to the right to retard.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 05:01 PM

Well after checking..rechecking..rerechecking.....everything I came up with the following

1st time through:

.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*
.060" 64.0 145.0 209.0 104.5*
.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*

I went back and double check TDC on the degree wheel and made a slight tweek.

2nd time through:

.050" 60.0 151.0 211.0 105.5*
.060" 65.0 146.0 211.0 105.5*
.040" 55.5 155.5 211.0 105.5*

Needless to say I am a little disappointed. I was hoping to see a 108*. Should I ever bother advancing it the few degrees to 102 or 103, or should I just leave it alone? I do not have the water pump or timing chain cover off yet so I have to decide if I want to go any further into it or not.

I am using the 7" mopar degree wheel so I guess there may be a little margin of error because it is so small. The 11" wheel I have won't clear the K-frame down below so I can't use it.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 05:15 PM

I would really try to get to 102 or 101?? (106 is where they put the dowel pin to come out yours is closer than I have come across)
4 degrees is a worthwhile gain trust me

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 05:30 PM

I went back out and gave it a third try. Checked TDC to make sure it was correct and then I checked it at .040", .050", and .060". It came out to 105.5*, 105.5*, and 105.75* so it pretty much confirmed my second run numbers.

I guess I will go work on advancing it.

Dodgem...earlier you said to shot for 103-102. In the last post you mentioned 102-101. Why the change? Was it my initial reading of 105.5*?

One other thing, I don't have a cam card for the 509 cam. The book spec lists the centerline at 108 but you keep mentioning 106? Is 106 the installed center line and if so where did you find this spec?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 05:56 PM

cause 4 deg is what I would shoot for but they rarely turn out that way. by the time you drill the hole. Have gear clamped tight! LOL!! and put in a 4 deg dowel pin bushing they are rarely on the money.
I really like 102 for your motor but 103 would be cool and 101 fine too!!

But a 4 deg advance will really give it a kick in the pants

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 06:51 PM

Quote:

One other thing, I don't have a cam card for the 509 cam. The book spec lists the centerline at 108 but you keep mentioning 106? Is 106 the installed center line and if so where did you find this spec?

That cam has a 108* lobe sep. Mp suggests a 106* intake centerline. With 248* duration @.050 the intake open and close events will be as follows.

For Straight up Intake open ----Intake close

108* IntakeCL-----16*BTDC---------52*ATDC 0* SU.

106* ICL----------18*BTDC---------50*ATDC 2* ADV

104* ICL----------20*BTDC---------48*ATDC 4* ADV

102* ICL----------22*BTDC---------46*ATDC 6* ADV

mike

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 08:20 PM

Quote:

Well after checking..rechecking..rerechecking.....everything I came up with the following

1st time through:

.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*
.060" 64.0 145.0 209.0 104.5*
.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*

I went back and double check TDC on the degree wheel and made a slight tweek.

2nd time through:

.050" 60.0 151.0 211.0 105.5*
.060" 65.0 146.0 211.0 105.5*
.040" 55.5 155.5 211.0 105.5*

Needless to say I am a little disappointed. I was hoping to see a 108*. Should I ever bother advancing it the few degrees to 102 or 103, or should I just leave it alone? I do not have the water pump or timing chain cover off yet so I have to decide if I want to go any further into it or not.

I am using the 7" mopar degree wheel so I guess there may be a little margin of error because it is so small. The 11" wheel I have won't clear the K-frame down below so I can't use it.

Be prepared to be little more dissappointed when you advance it 2-3 MORE degrees and you still don't get the performance gain you are expecting. Time to roll in some fresh technology and a cam that better fits your your application.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 10:28 PM

Oh well...if it doesn't end up making a big difference I will have a project for next winter. Its worth a try...right.
I pulled the rest of the front off of the motor and hope to mess around with it some more later tonight. I dropped a *#?:(.,#* bolt down in the oil pan this afternoon so I kind of got side tracked. My wife was standing there the whole time asking me why I was doing this and I really didn't have a good answer. I just told everybody 2 weeks ago that I wasn't going to do a thing to the Cuda this year...just drive it. Now I have the engine laying on my front bench??? I just can't leave anything alone??? What is wrong with me?

I did manage to fish the bolt out of the oil pan...phew.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/10/10 11:17 PM

If I want to advance it 4* then should I start with the bushing stamped with a 4 or a 2?

Edit...Update:

I was going to try to advance it tonight but I ran into a few more questions....sorry.

First, I noticed that the "dots" on the sprockets line up on TDC of the exhaust stroke (starting to come up on the exhaust lobe). At this point, the dot on the cam sprocket is pointing down, the dot on the crank sprocket is pointing up, and the dowel pin is to the right.

If I rotate the engine to TDC on the compression stroke (both lifters are down), the dot on the cam sprocket is facing up, the dot on the crank sprocket is facing up, and the dowel is to the left.

Is this a problem? Should the dots be lined up on the compression stroke, or does it not matter?

Also, I notice the dowel fits into a slot in the cam sprocket, not a hole. Is there a trick to drilling it out properly or do I have to get a different cam sprocket?

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/11/10 12:46 AM

Quote:

Oh well...if it doesn't end up making a big difference I will have a project for next winter. Its worth a try...right.
I pulled the rest of the front off of the motor and hope to mess around with it some more later tonight. I dropped a *#?:(.,#* bolt down in the oil pan this afternoon so I kind of got side tracked. My wife was standing there the whole time asking me why I was doing this and I really didn't have a good answer. I just told everybody 2 weeks ago that I wasn't going to do a thing to the Cuda this year...just drive it. Now I have the engine laying on my front bench??? I just can't leave anything alone??? What is wrong with me?

I did manage to fish the bolt out of the oil pan...phew.

Your time is your time, so you get to spend it any way you want. I applaud you for trying stuff. It's always easier to just throw money at a problem. I just think I'd go a different route, that's all. When my wife asks questions like that my standard answer is: "I could always spend my time and $ at the local bar." BTW, there is nothing wrong with you. Real car guys are never happy with what they have.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/11/10 01:16 AM

well it's easier to do with dowel to the right "I think) but it makes no difference as long as the bushing moves the cam clockwise some.
This is a free try before spending money and i garrentee you get 3 1/2 to 4 more degrees of cam advance you will be amazed.
Give your wife some money to go shopping!!! LOL!!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/11/10 01:27 AM

Does it matter that the dots line up and the dowel is to the right at TDC of the exhaust stroke? I thought it would be that way when at TDC of the compression stroke?

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/11/10 02:03 AM

Quote:

Does it matter that the dots line up and the dowel is to the right at TDC of the exhaust stroke? I thought it would be that way when at TDC of the compression stroke?

The Dots line up as you see ATDC between the exhaust and intake stroke, not on the compression stroke as alot believe. Thats why you will see distributers set 180* out on that misconception, Iv done it myself back in the day. mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/11/10 02:40 AM

Great...that's where they line up so I guess I'm good to go.

I have the cam gear clamped in my drill press right now and I started drilling a 3/8" hole and it seems to be working well. I just marked the center of the dowel in the slot and did my best to center the bit on the lines. I will pick up a 13/32" drill bit tomorrow morning and punch it through.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/11/10 06:26 AM

Ty, check the exhaust side also, if the cam is ground on a 108 LSA the exhaust should be retarded toe same amount as the intake is advanced,IE intake in at 105.5 then the exhaust should be in at 111.5. All motors start the intake stroke at the beginning of the number one cylinder rotation, IE the piston starts down on the intake stroke as the exhaust valve closes

4 strokes, intake, compression, power and then exhaust

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 12:32 AM

Well....drilling out the slot didn't work out so good. I was a hair off and by the time I filed it the fit of the bushing was loose.

I realized tonight that I have been measuring off of the #1 exhaust lobe all along

I double and triple checked everything but that. So all of the numbers I have listed so far are for the #1 exhaust lobe. Sorry for the screw up. I will have to wait for my new timing gear set to come later in the week to get baseline numbers for the intake. I am going to go with a Cloyes Original True Roller. I hope they are good? The chain on my Mopar set had quite a bit of sag in it so I guess it is time to replace it anyway.

Posted By: Bigbeep

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 01:29 AM

I have the Cloyes Hex-a-just timing set. Makes this job alot easier.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 01:36 AM

I would have liked to get one of the hex adjust sets but they don't make one for a one bolt cam as far as I can tell.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 01:39 AM

Well, Im not sure how you did that. When you mark your TDC and affix the degree wheel accordinly you measure max lift ATDC turning the crank clockwise.

Max lift on the exhaust happens BTDC on the exhaust stroke. So if you were measuring the exhaust valve as the piston was approaching TDC and the numbers are true at 105.75 lets round that off two 106.

Then your cam is installed 2* retarded. With a 108 LS straight up both the intake and exhaust would measure exactly the same distance apart from TDC 108* at the Crank.

If your Exhaust is truely at 106* BTDC then your at 110 ATDC on the intake and retarded by 2*

If thats the case you should be Really Happy! Because advancing that cam will make a Major Improvement in your cars performance.

By the way, There is evidence that your cam is retarded with your posted intake and exhaust valve clearences. You had Alot on the intake and just enough on the exhaust. With a cam advanced its usually the other way around. I noticed that,when I read those specs

mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 02:09 AM

I did it by first finding TDC on #1 cylinder by using a positive stop in the #1 plug hole. Once I had TDC set correctly on the degree wheel I started turning the crank clockwise with the dial indicator on the connecting rod to the lifter (unfortunately it was the exhaust lifter). Once the lifter reached maximum lift I set the dial indicator to "0". Then I continued to turn the crank clockwise and recorded the number once the dial indicator needle pointed to the "50" just before TDC and then recorded the number when the needle on the dial indicator pointed to "50" after TDC. I added these two numbers and divided by 2 to get the final number. I did it using "40" and "60" on the dial indicator a couple times and the numbers worked out the same. I hope this is right?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 02:40 AM

That sucks!! Your not the first guy to be degreeing off the exhaust

Well my guess is 216 - 105.75 so intake in at 110.25 and that would be a killjoy bottom end with that cam
LSA is 108 LSA is exhaust centerline + intake centerline / 2
105.75 + 110.25 =216 / 2 = 108
a new gear set will be sweet!!!
Your learning all about degreeing and that will be sweet!!!

Posted By: 602heavy

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 01:26 PM

We all make mistakes , good on you for getting in there & with a degree wheel , lots of guys just join the dots........ was having trouble degreeing a comp cam so got on the phone to comps wondering why the lobes were so far off cam card , the guy @ comps told me to sit back & think what i was doing wrong , turned out the dial indicator was in millimeters & not inches.........

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/12/10 04:16 PM

Quote:

We all make mistakes , good on you for getting in there & with a degree wheel , lots of guys just join the dots........ was having trouble degreeing a comp cam so got on the phone to comps wondering why the lobes were so far off cam card , the guy @ comps told me to sit back & think what i was doing wrong , turned out the dial indicator was in millimeters & not inches.........

Dam sillymeters!!

My car stuff is all in inches my micrometer at work before I retired was electronic and switched form sillymeters to inches. Canada went metric in 75 to 77 I was taught both in school in the fifties and sixties so no big deal. But the degreeing off an exhaust lobe can throw you off as I can imagine finding the @.050 lobe lift in sillymeters would be a head scratcher.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/13/10 12:36 AM

Cloyes True Roller is on the way from Summit. I also got a Comp Cams crank socket which should make the whole process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I was getting really tired of crawling under the car to turn the engine counterclockwise with flywheel bolts. Should have the stuff by mid week

.....then the fun will continue.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/13/10 12:51 AM

Great, way to go after it and dig in ,

mike

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/13/10 02:58 AM

Hope you got one like this that the wheel goes into!
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/crtusowidewh.html

mine in use
http://s542.photobucket.com/albums/gg408...pg&newest=1

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/14/10 02:32 AM

Yep....that's exactly the one I have coming. I think it will make the process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I want to know how you got that big degree wheel to clear the k-frame? I tried an 11" degree wheel and it won't clear on mine?

Thinking ahead here, when I installed the cam years ago and lined up the dots I am pretty sure it degreed in at 108* on the intake. My valve clearances were .162" intake and .113" exhaust. If I find the cam is in at 108* or 110* and have to advance it 6-8* how much of a difference is that going to make in my intake valve clearance? Is there reason for concern or was my starting point of .162" plenty to play with? I will probably be checking PTV clearance anyway when I am done but just wondered how close it may get since advancing it will tighten up the intake PTV.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/14/10 02:38 AM

Quote:

Yep....that's exactly the one I have coming. I think it will make the process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I want to know how you got that big degree wheel to clear the k-frame? I tried an 11" degree wheel and it won't clear on mine?

Thinking ahead here, when I installed the cam years ago and lined up the dots I am pretty sure it degreed in at 108* on the intake. My valve clearances were .162" intake and .113" exhaust. If I find the cam is in at 108* or 110* and have to advance it 6-8* how much of a difference is that going to make in my intake valve clearance? Is there reason for concern or was my starting point of .162" plenty to play with? I will probably be checking PTV clearance anyway when I am done but just wondered how close it may get since advancing it will tighten up the intake PTV.

We use the big wheels on the engine stand plus they
are more accurate... they sure wont work with a
K-member and all of the accessories but they even
fit in a tube chassis car(most of the times)

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/14/10 02:53 AM

Yeah...I used the 11" wheel when building the engine on the stand several years ago. I just noticed in Dodgem's pic that the engine was in the car and he had what looked to be an 11 or 12" degree wheel on it?

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/14/10 03:50 AM

Quote:

Yep....that's exactly the one I have coming. I think it will make the process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I want to know how you got that big degree wheel to clear the k-frame? I tried an 11" degree wheel and it won't clear on mine?

Thinking ahead here, when I installed the cam years ago and lined up the dots I am pretty sure it degreed in at 108* on the intake. My valve clearances were .162" intake and .113" exhaust. If I find the cam is in at 108* or 110* and have to advance it 6-8* how much of a difference is that going to make in my intake valve clearance? Is there reason for concern or was my starting point of .162" plenty to play with? I will probably be checking PTV clearance anyway when I am done but just wondered how close it may get since advancing it will tighten up the intake PTV.

Your starting intake to piston valve clearence is plenty .162} Lift rates with the MP cams at the valve with a 1.5 ratio will be about or less then .00525 per crank degree of rotation.

So if you advance your cam say 8*, you lose 8 x .00525 = .042 of clearence.

.162 - .042 =

.120 still plenty of clearence there. mike

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/14/10 11:20 AM

Quote:

Yeah...I used the 11" wheel when building the engine on the stand several years ago. I just noticed in Dodgem's pic that the engine was in the car and he had what looked to be an 11 or 12" degree wheel on it?

Yea the 11" Mr gasket has always worked in my 68 GTX. I originally got a 7" (8"???) Direct Connection then the 11" Mr Gasket and now I have a moroso pro 18" but it won't work in the car.
see moroso's 11" says for in car
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mor11degwhee.html

Posted By: BloFish

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 12:58 AM

Who's big block valve spring compressor are you using? I am looking for one as we speak, as I am changing my cam in the car as well.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 02:06 AM

Well....my parts showed up today

I installed the Cloyes timing chain set and wow...the chain was a lot tighter than the Mopar set I removed. Installed straight up I got 108.5* measuring on the intake this time (definately the intake this time

)

Before drilling I decided to advance the crank sprocket using the advance keyway. Doing this got me to 104.5* so I am moving in the right direction.

Now...should I move the crank sprocket back and try a 6* bushing in the cam sprocket? Or should I leave the crank sprocket where it is and try a 2* bushing in the cam sprocket? Does it really make any difference?

Anyway...it looks like I am moving in the right direction now and I have a nice new Cloyes timing set to boot.

That crank socket is a life saver. Wow does it make finding TDC a whole lot easier!!!

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 02:35 AM

I take it the Cloyes only has the 4* advance or retard. I was going to ask you about that but you said it was already on its way. For x amount more Summit has a nice more adjustable set up, no drilling.

From your specs you were sitting at a 110 ICL or 2* retarded. If you are now at 104.5* you are 5.5* more advanced then you were.

That will show a significant improvement. You could leave it where its at right now and Id bet youd be happy

For what its worth, Im at 104.5 @ centerline or 104* based on Valve events. While its apart and if its decided you going the 2* extra. I would use the 2* bushing, it will be thicker to the dowl. mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 03:17 AM

I saw the sets with something like (9) keyways on the crank sprocket but my bro-in-law swore by the Cloyes Original True Roller set so I decided to go with it since I already have the bushings.

While I have it apart I think I will go for another 2* to get me in that 102-103* range hopefully.

Posted By: 6packattk

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 06:01 AM

I NOTICED NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WHEN DRILLING DOWEL HOLE FOR off set bushing to not drill all the way thru and drill from back.I purchased a bench drill press from summit and used the dowel drill hole size to center in gear and then used one of those flat tip type bits and didn`t go but a sixteenth from going all the way thru and the bushing fits great and can never fall out.Sorry I am out of state and if I am too late may help someone else someday with this on another cam degree,yeah I am anal,bought drill press just to get this right........

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 11:38 AM

I would use the straight up crank key and try 6 on the cloyes and 8 if you need it. offsetting the crank key also offsets the balancer throwing the timing mark off. Your going to be one happy camper you have my guarantee!!

I'll bet with your old timing set you were in at 110 or 110.5 by your exhaust centerline. That car must have been a dog bottom end with a 3000 stall??? This cam obviously has the dowel out (not uncommon that's why we check). the gear set was probably off a little more would be why you had such massive intake clearance the intake was a day late opening.

Don't forget a new chain will stretch a bit right away retarding a 1/2 degree or so right away.
If you left you distributor in check your timing it will advance the amount you advance the cam so if you know where it was you will know how much this work got you. if you get it in at 103 I would bet your timing moves up 7 deg

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 11:52 AM

What is the part number of the crank sproket you got?

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 12:08 PM

I can't believe this - 59 replies to a thread like this. What is the big deal? Degreeing a cam is degreeing a cam whether it is is in or out of a vehicle. So what if there are some obstacles to work around. The basics are still the same. Sure it is easier out in the open but it is not a major hurdle if it is done later or you want to change the degree for one reason or another.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 12:35 PM

Someone else local to me mentioned that I shouldn�t drill the whole for the bushing the whole way through. Looking at how it all works I just don�t see how that will work? Right now looking at the cam sprocket, the dowel pin on the cam is flush with the outside surface of the cam sprocket. So if I do not drill it all the way through that will mean that the dowel pin will go through the offset bushing and then bottom out on the portion of the cam sprocket that was left undrilled�.therefore the cam sprocket would not bolt up flush to the cam. Plus, the washer for the cam bolt covers the bushing anyway so there is no way it will fall out�.unless the bolt comes out and at that point I think I would have bigger problems. Anyway�.I would like to mess around with the offset bushings tonight so let me know what you guys think.

Moparforlife�.all I can say is I am learning as I go and all of the responses I have received to this thread have been very helpful and I appreciate all the help. Sorry if it is a little boring for people well versed in this subject.

Dodgeem.. the crankshaft socket is Comp Cam part# 4799.

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 12:55 PM

My point being that whether it is is in or out of the vehicle the procedure is the basically the same. There may be a few obstacles to work around but the procedure is the same as will the end result

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 01:36 PM

Quote:

My point being that whether it is is in or out of the vehicle the procedure is the basically the same. There may be a few obstacles to work around but the procedure is the same as will the end result

So you added two more post of unhelpfull dripple to a thread you personaly deem to long. Move on when you see more than 0 replies and make us all happy.

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 01:37 PM

Quote:

My point being that whether it is is in or out of the vehicle the procedure is the basically the same. There may be a few obstacles to work around but the procedure is the same as will the end result

Thread really has little to do with the actual mechanics of it, but more about the miraculous improvement in performance that will be seen ( even guaranteed )by advancing the cam 4 degrees. I'm sure the proof will be in - "the seat of the pants"

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/15/10 01:44 PM

Dodgeem.. the crankshaft socket is Comp Cam part# 4799.

Thats what I use

I do use large pump plyers to tighten the nut holding the wheel so it don't move. and after helping a fried install a Milodon gear drive I put twp more set screws in either side of the small keyway as the one that is there now is always way under neath??
yeas the offsets bushings will stay were you put them and the washer holds them in. seen some lock tight them but the Cloyes 9 keyway rocks as do Milodon gear drives.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 12:29 AM

Dodgeem: When I said earlier that I advanced the crank sprocket I didn't use an offset key. The crank sprocket has 3 keyways in it. One for straight up, one for +4* advance, and one for -4* retard. I just rotated the sprocket and used the +4* advance keyway in the sprocket.

I messed around with the Comp Cams cam sprocket offset bushings tonight. Here is what I have so far...

straight up 108.5* intake

+4* crank 104.5* intake

+4* crank / +2* cam 103.5* intake

+4* crank / +4* cam 101.5* intake
114.0* exhaust

I was going to pull the cam sprocket off again to mess around with some Crane Cams bushings I have but it was really snug and I couldn't wiggle it off so I figured it was a sign to leave it there. What do you think...101.5* which will end up at 102.0* once the chain stretches...right.

I noticed the rpm range Mopar publishes for the .509 cam is 2,600 - 6,000. At the track I have always shifted at 6K. Is there a chance I am advancing it too much?

I want to check the PTV clearances while I have it apart. If I set the piston at TDC when I install the lighter springs is that enough insurance against dropping a valve down in the cylinder?

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 01:01 AM

102 is fine IMO, I wish I would of put mine at 102. Lots of guys like to install the MP 590 between 99* and 101* for best performance.

Installing your MP 509 at 102* isnt out of the Performance perimeter of that cam , by any means.

At 102 with your 10.1 comp your cranking psi may get close to Race gas octane needs for driving around the street under load. And with its less duration compared the 590 will lose some HP over 6000 rpm. But with your combo I dont think that will matter.

I say run it as is at 102* and let us know the difference in how it runs. With your 3000 stall vert it will be a good thing, IMO "Guarenteed"

I also understood that you werent using the crank offset keys.

And by the way document your cranking PSI @ 110* retarded vs 102* advanced. Ive seen a 20# psi. difference just by advancing 4*

Advancing a cam by 4* to 6* doesnt hurt the overall HP below 6000 RPM it just makes a Bigger cam seem smaller at lower RPM. mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 01:30 AM

Ok...I am going to go with it where it is.

I measured the cranking PSI before I started and it was 140psi.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 02:16 AM

OK I'm confused you got a gear set with just three keyways and then used an offset bushing???

What happened to the cloyes 9 keyway you were getting??

if your confident your right go for it 101.5 then chain stretch will be 102 and that will kick ass.
Trust me not a chance you are advancing it too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 02:24 AM

Your cranking compression should go to 155 or more.
let us know!

don't forget the engine timing after your done. It is a good indicator of what you did as if you advance the cam 6 deg the timing will have advanced 6 deg

Oh it will still like 6000

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 02:24 AM

No, I got the Cloyes "Original True Roller" set. The crank socket only has 3 keyways cut in it. The 9 keyway would have been nice but there is no going back now

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 02:30 AM

Quote:

No, I got the Cloyes "Original True Roller" set. The crank socket only has 3 keyways cut in it. The 9 keyway would have been nice but there is no going back now

how ever you get there is fine!!
I want a ride when your done!

We did my friends 590 mopar solid that way + 4 put us in at 99.5 worked good but this winter he milled another .040 off the heads so we needed to back the cam timing up slightly so we used The +4 slot and a bushing to get 101 and just the valve clearance we needed.

Posted By: BigSugar

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 02:55 AM

Following this thread regularly as I have a similar setup in my 66 Charger, 440 six pack with a 727 and a 2800 stall converter and a 390:1 rear.
A little lazy at the bottom but wakes up strong in the midrange rpm.
Wicked idle, steady, with 8-10" of vacuum.

Just wondering what Lifters your using ?
Would Rhoads lifters be a nice addition to the .509
degree'd at 102* ?

patiently awaiting your end results
Great Thread

Ron
Beeton Ont
Can.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/16/10 03:43 AM

Quote:

Following this thread regularly as I have a similar setup in my 66 Charger, 440 six pack with a 727 and a 2800 stall converter and a 390:1 rear.
A little lazy at the bottom but wakes up strong in the midrange rpm.
Wicked idle, steady, with 8-10" of vacuum.

Just wondering what Lifters your using ?
Would Rhoads lifters be a nice addition to the .509
degree'd at 102* ?

patiently awaiting your end results
Great Thread

Ron
Beeton Ont
Can.

You idle will improve advancing that cam to 102/103 3 and it will be WEEE HAAA from the hit of the throttle.
I've never used Rhoads but you won't need them advance it up and see.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 01:05 AM

Alright guys...are there any secrets to getting the valve springs off so I can put on the light springs to check ptv clearance? I have a spring compressor that is a fork style with the wheel that turns on the top to compress the spring.

The springs on the Eddy heads have some kind of flat spring on the inside of the actual valve spring. The fork doesn't grab the inner flat spring. Is this a problem?

I can compress the outer spring and get a lot of up and down play in the valve and spring but the valve retainer doesn't budge so I can't get to the locks? Help.

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 01:19 AM

Quote:

Alright guys...are there any secrets to getting the valve springs off so I can put on the light springs to check ptv clearance? I have a spring compressor that is a fork style with the wheel that turns on the top to compress the spring.

The springs on the Eddy heads have some kind of flat spring on the inside of the actual valve spring. The fork doesn't grab the inner flat spring. Is this a problem?

I can compress the outer spring and get a lot of up and down play in the valve and spring but the valve retainer doesn't budge so I can't get to the locks? Help.

That flat spring is a damper. You are probably going to have to air up the chambers go get enough room to remove the keepers ( verses using the piston at TDC ), especially with that type of spring compressor. You really need to invest in an over center lever type spring compressor.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 01:30 AM

Anybody have a link to a good over the top lever type spring compressor?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 03:39 AM

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/ben2pivaspto.html

But why eddies ate good to 600 + lift??

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67461/?rtype=10

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 03:44 AM

I like to have the piston up and use air to hold valves up.
You know you can just use the adjuster on the rocker put the piston 10 before TDC and with dial indicator on retainer turn down till it touches. see how far back off and then 5 before then tdc the 5 after and 10 after

If you had 160 before I would expect .100 now or more.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 03:51 AM

I will try it using the adjuster on the rocker tomorrow. I assume I would have to use a solid lifter and set to zero lash when the lifter is on the heal of the cam. I would have to go back and reset to zero lash before each measurement point, right?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 12:10 PM

Yes a solid just set it to .000 lash
Just adjust it open farther at each position and watch dial indicator till it contacts the piston then back off to where you were (count turns) go to 5 deg before repeat Then TDC repeat 5 deg after and 10 degree after. after that the piston is past .200 down and out running the valve.

You may want to go back to the heal and 0 each time then move to the next position
anything over .080 is fine. I've run .060 but that's tight.

Hurry up we are waiting for the test drive.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 07:11 PM

Test drive....that would be nice.

I am driving myself crazy here today trying to figure out the ptv clearance without the right spring removal tool. I tried using the adjuster on the rocker at various points but couldn't really tell when or if it ever hit the piston. Plus I am freaked out that I am going to bend or break something so I don't want to go too far. So what I did was put the lifter on the heel and zero'd the dial indicator. Then I cranked down on the lifter with the adjuster to .140". At that point I felt no binding while rotating the engine. I cranked it down to .160" and thought I might have felt something at 4.5* ATDC but wasn't really sure? At .190" it came to a dead stop at 2* BTDC. I also checked the exhaust at .140" and it was free and clear. Based on this do you think I am ok or should I get the shaft mounted spring removal tool so I can check it with light springs?

I also tried to check the timing of the intake valve events per one of Sport440's posts a while back. He said with a 248* duration at .050" the intake open and close events are:

102*ICL 22* BTDC 46* ATDC

I am trying to duplicate this and for my 101.5* ICL I am getting 22* BTDC for the open at .050" but 134* ATDC for my close at .050"? What am I doing wrong. I am measuring the close .050" before complete closure of the valve. Is this right? I am measuring the open .050" after the valve starts to open.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 07:20 PM

You must be looking at the wheel wrong 22 BTDC is right for @ .050 lobe lift then go to 102 ATDC Max lobe lift then to BDC and 46 ABDC should be at .050 close (WHICH IS 134 BTDC)!!!!!

134 ATDC would be just after max lift.

22 (BTDC) + 180 (TDC To BDC)+ 46 ABDC = 248 deg
likely reads 134 BTDC on the wheel but count from 180 (BDC) or and it will be 46
You have tones of valve clearance

Posted By: BloFish

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 10:17 PM

Here is what I just bought for my cam change ordeal. It will be here on Monday

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67461/?rtype=10

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/17/10 10:25 PM

Like I said i have that works good.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/18/10 01:57 AM

I see how it works now. Thanks for clearing it up. The valve open and close are spot on and the peak is right around the 101.5* - 102.0* mark on the degree wheel.

I realized tonight I am out of street hemi orange paint. I need to paint the water pump housing, valley pan, bolt heads, and timing chain cover. I think I will order a couple cans from Summit and while I am at it I will get the Proform spring compressor so I can check the ptv the right way. Sorry for the delay. Hopefully I can have it together for a test drive next weekend

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/18/10 02:05 AM

Going from 110* ICL to 102* ICL the engine is even going to sound different. I want to see more then a test drive I want to see some track results as well.

The street manors will improve consideribly, and your ets with that 3000 stall vert will improve as well. I can tell from your posts that you have this cam degreeing system down.

mike

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/18/10 04:03 AM

Quote:

I want to see more then a test drive I want to see some track results as well.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/19/10 01:39 AM

We'll definately get some track results if it "feels" like there is an improvement.

Good news....I was able to get the light springs installed tonight so I checked the PTV clearance. Using compressed air to the cylinder helped a lot. Anyway....here is what I have...

Intake
TDC .140"
2* ATDC .132"
4* ATDC .125"
6* ATDC .122"
8* ATDC .120"
10* ATDC .122"
12* ATDC .127"
14* ATDC .135"

Exhaust
14* BTDC .190"
12* BTDC .184"
10* BTDC .178"
8* BTDC .174"
6* BTDC .175"
4* BTDC .176"
2* BTDC .184"
TDC .190"

So it looks like the exhaust was the closest at 8* BTDC at .174" and the intake was closest at 8* ATDC at .120". Based on that it looks like I am good to go

The only thing that worries me is that I was able to turn the motor over when I had the adjuster on the rocker cranked down .140", .160", and .180". Only at .190" did it stop the other night when I tried doing it that way. I sure hope I didn't bend or damage anything? What do you think?

Hopefully my local Dodge dealer will have some Street Hemi Orange. The way it looks I should be able to put it back together next weekend.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/19/10 01:46 AM

Quote:

Your starting intake to piston valve clearence is plenty .162} Lift rates with the MP cams at the valve with a 1.5 ratio will be about or less then .00525 per crank degree of rotation.

So if you advance your cam say 8*, you lose 8 x .00525 = .042 of clearence.

.162 - .042 = .120 still plenty of clearence there. mike

Looks like you were spot on with this one Mike

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/19/10 03:04 AM

Your fine takes a lot to bend a valve by hand.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/26/10 12:06 AM

Well I got her back together this weekend and just fired it off a little while ago. It is raining here so no test drive yet. I can say that at the hit of the throttle it feels much "crisper". The sun is supposed to come out on Wednesday so hopefully I will be able to take it for a test drive then.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/26/10 12:46 AM

Great news, Can you do a compression check on a known easy to get to cyl. You had 140 PSI at a 110 ICL,

Im going to estimate your at about 165 psi now at a 102 ICL,

mike

Posted By: 383man

383man - 04/26/10 12:53 AM

Good to hear.

Do you plan to hit Cecil soon ? Ron

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/26/10 01:03 AM

Don't forget to reset your timing it will have advanced whatever the cam advanced.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/26/10 02:53 AM

I'll try to get a compression check soon...just didn't have time tonight. Considering how good your "guesses" are Mike I probably don't even need to check it.

Ron, I hope to get to Cecil for a test and tune one of the Saturday's in May....probably later in the month. Now I have to put my super stock springs and drag shocks back on.

I found a little problem with my timing tonight. I checked it at idle and it was at 36....previously I had it set at 25 initial and 34 all in with a custom 9* bushing I made. I adjusted it back down to 25* at idle but noticed that when I brought up the R's it wasn't moving. Long story short, the bushing was jambed and the distributor was acting like it was locked out. The only problem is I have no idea at what point in its motion it was locked. I have a good 14* bushing in their now and it is moving freely.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/27/10 12:51 AM

The cranking psi came in at 150psi. I have the distributor set up with 18* initial and 34* total all in by 2500rpm. All I need now is some nice weather and dry roads........

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/27/10 02:09 AM

then i would sneak the total up to 38 or 39 more there yet!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/28/10 12:20 AM

The roads dried up around here today so I was able to get the Cuda out for a test drive. All I can say is thank you for urging me to advance the cam. If feels like I am driving a totally different car. It pulls much harder, the engine seems to spin up much quicker, and it is overall a lot more fun to drive. It will roast the tires in 1st and 2nd unlike it ever did before

I can't say enough

The proof will be in the numbers at the track. As long as the car still hooks I don't see how it can't 60' better. Honestly, even if I don't see any gains at the track I won't care because the car is so much more fun to drive.

Based on what I have seen so far this has been the best bang for my buck/time spent on this car so far!

Thanks again....and I am hoping to get to the track in May to get some numbers.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/28/10 12:49 AM

There was never any doubt in my mind you would be happy. these cams really respond to advancing.
You can also sneak up the advance usually some more power there too!

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/28/10 01:55 AM

The extra drive abilty for your combo was worth advancing it alone. I too knew you would be happy with that!

As far as ET, if you had a 5000 vert you would see some gain but not as much as you will see with your 3000 vert., combo.

How much that will be, Id venture to say " Lets wait till May"

mike

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/28/10 02:23 PM

Quote:

The extra drive abilty for your combo was worth advancing it alone. I too knew you would be happy with that!

As far as ET, if you had a 5000 vert you would see some gain but not as much as you will see with your 3000 vert., combo.

How much that will be, Id venture to say " Lets wait till May" mike

Only me and you had the faith sport

It was never a question of how happy he would be just when! LOL!!
I will predict 3 tenths if you still hook!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/29/10 01:19 AM

3 tenths

If it picked up that much I think I would mess my pants. I would be happy if I saw an 11.75. As long as the weather is good I am looking at Saturday the 15th for a trip to the track.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 04/29/10 02:26 AM

Quote:

3 tenths If it picked up that much I think I would mess my pants. I would be happy if I saw an 11.75. As long as the weather is good I am looking at Saturday the 15th for a trip to the track.

Better bring Extra pants then

If you can still hook you should be sub 11.50,s or better IMO!

What does surprise me is that you only picked up 10 psi cranking compression. I figured you see more then that.

You didnt happen to measure that off the cylinder that you most likely bent the intake valve on did you?

Just kidding, mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/14/10 10:12 PM

The car is loaded. I'm heading to the track tomorrow morning for a test and tune. Can't wait to see what she does

Posted By: BloFish

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/14/10 11:14 PM

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/15/10 12:53 AM

Have fun and let us know!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/15/10 07:55 PM

Well....I didn't need the extra pair of pants today.

Previous best with the 10" converter installed was
11.834
114.90
1.716

Best run today was
11.814
115.10
1.701

I have a major traction problem now. I made a pass at 20psi, 18psi, 15psi, 13psi, and back to 15psi. 15psi in the rear tires seemed to work the best but it was still spinning.

Fix one thing....create another problem

I noticed the car pulled strong the whole way down the track so I didn't loose anything up top. I did notice my mph jumped up to 115's for all passes with 115.88 being the fastest. My previous highs were in the 114's.

Well....if I had to do it all over again I would. The car is much more fun to drive on the street and if I can get it to hook at the track I am sure I will be in the 11.7's like I had hoped for.

By the way, I have MP Super Stock springs in the back with MP drag shocks, and 28" M/T ET Street Radials. Up front I have Comp 90/10 drag shocks with the sway bar unbolted. Guess I will be starting a new thread searching for suspension recommendations

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/15/10 09:15 PM

what was the weather and wind like??? get in a cross or head wind with poor barometer will knock you down.
get it to hook and I see 11.6's maybe better on a good day. What were you shifting at??
did you bump the timing up I'll bet it will like 39 total??
Glad you had fun the mph tells it is making more power. and like me and sport440 said you will love the cam advanced.
May need real slicks?? where they spraying?? were you doing a burn out I could never get sticky streets to hook without one!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 12:40 AM

The weather couldn't have been much better. A cold front went through last night. The winds were out of the NW @ 10-15mph which is all tailwind at my track. Humidity was 63% on the first run and down to 44% on my last run. The barometer was 30.12" on the first run and 30.16 on the last. Temp was 61F to start and 67F at the end.

I spent the whole time messing with the tire pressure to try to get it to hook and didn't even bother bumping the timing up. In the past when I played with the the car ran quicker at 34* vs. 36*. I will revisit this once I get it to hook.

I did a burnout on every run. Spin it in the water box...pull up...2nd gear...pump the brakes a few times...push the line like button....wack the throttle and hold it at 4K until I see a little smoke...let off the line lock and move forward....put it in neutral and wack the throttle a couple more times....put it in first and roll up to the line. Same routine every time.

I like running the Mickey Thompson ET Street radial tires because I typically run in street classes the couple times a year I do run. I need DOT legal tires for that.

I wonder if Caltracs may be in my future?

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 02:59 AM

Quote:

Well....I didn't need the extra pair of pants today.

Previous best with the 10" converter installed was
11.834
114.90
1.716

Best run today was
11.814
115.10
1.701

I have a major traction problem now. I made a pass at 20psi, 18psi, 15psi, 13psi, and back to 15psi. 15psi in the rear tires seemed to work the best but it was still spinning.

Fix one thing....create another problem

I noticed the car pulled strong the whole way down the track so I didn't loose anything up top. I did notice my mph jumped up to 115's for all passes with 115.88 being the fastest. My previous highs were in the 114's.

Well....if I had to do it all over again I would. The car is much more fun to drive on the street and if I can get it to hook at the track I am sure I will be in the 11.7's like I had hoped for.

By the way, I have MP Super Stock springs in the back with MP drag shocks, and 28" M/T ET Street Radials. Up front I have Comp 90/10 drag shocks with the sway bar unbolted. Guess I will be starting a new thread searching for suspension recommendations

All ya really gotta look at is the mph improvement - about 1%. That could be due to a gust of wind! Basically, you gained nada in the HP department by advancing the cam. At best you moved the HP curve down lower where, it appears, you can't use it without making some more changes. Sounds like going the "cheap route" might not be so cheap in the end

On the bright side, you didn't lose any ET, it didn't cost you much so far, you learned how to degree in a cam - in the car, and maybe you learned a little about web sight "experts".

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 12:23 PM

What he gained was more average HP and torque 2500 to 6000. much more torque and hp down low , max hp probably stayed the same and maybe a slight loss past 6200
The car is quicker and nicer to drive so why so negative zilla??
On a better prepped track with some suspension tuning he will see his 11.6 maybe better.
Cal trac works good for me as do the 90/10 front Cal tracs best reacting front shocks out there for the money.

At least now he has more power than he can use on a TT track but that is a way better place than having a lazy dog that has no chance of improvement.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 12:39 PM

comp 90/10 shocks or 3 ways in the 90/10 position. I had a set of the 3 way adjustable for 3 weeks and sold them they were 70/30 at best in the 90/10 slot.
I used to run my pinion snubber at 1/2 on my ss springs. I uncamped the rear of the springs and let them fan out seem to really help.
I had also added a full length spring to the stack to hold my GTX up and it all worked great lakewood 90/10 but they too are a 70/30 at best.
Now I have Cal Trac mono, Cal tracs, and cal trac 90/10's front little improvements all around but not that much better than where I was.

Last time I ran street tires through the mufflers was on my ss set up above I got low 1.6 sixties with BF 325/15/50 drag radials it still wanted to spin went 11.7's when the car was 11.3 car open headers and slicks.

I ran the pressure down around 10, lusty burn out then torqued to 2700 or so (4000 stall) stab it about 1/2 throttle as it would not take full giving the rest over the 60 foot. torquing it high and a jab to launch seem to let it use the stored up energy without breaking loose the feed the rest to it as quickly as it would hold.

car is just drag now but if I had street tires would be nice to go back to a street night and play with the cal tracs and see what I can get.
Best with this motor is 10.48 & 127 and it likes pump gas might even try some 91 this year once I get it back in. I have my roller advance 10 deg to 100 (110 LSA) my last roller I had advanced 12 deg
it was a 114 LSA I put it in 8 advanced @ 106 and it was lazy off the line went 11.34 best with a big tail wind. advanced it to 102 and went 10.80 by the end of the season in neutral wind but better air I felt it was .03 or better faster in all conditions with the degree change.

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 03:30 PM

Not being negative Dodgem. Just feel that Tywebb2 was pumped a little fuller than necessary on the miraculous improvements he was going to receive from advancing his cam 4+ degrees. Most ( if not all ) cam manufacturers will tell you that if you have to advance their cam more than 3-4 degrees you haver the wrong cam for the application. Advancing or retarding it may help, but it will never be a cure-all and often causes other problems. The guy often ends up in a "chase your tail" situation. Just my opinion Dodgem. I still think Canadians make the best Spitfire pilots

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 04:11 PM

Well your wrong good cam likes advance. he already had it. A smaller cam would have created the same traction issues with less overall potential. he is happy and will be happier in the future.
I've been there and done that.

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 06:13 PM

Bottom line is I am more than happy with the way the car drives on the street now. Now it acts like a muscle car where as before it was a dog. Once I get the suspension dialed in the track times will fall into place. I'll get it figured out eventually.......

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/16/10 07:26 PM

Happy is a good thing - as is a low ET.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 05/17/10 03:55 AM

Quote:

Happy is a good thing - as is a low ET.

Happy is good!

With the new MPH and traction, his ets will follow to the tune of ??.??,

Okay, sub 11.50,s like said before, IMO "guarenteed"

mike

In the new vid, on the traction problem thread. Thats a great help in the right direction, IMO. mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 01:14 AM

I am bringing this one back from the dead for a little update.

I made it back to the track today for the first time with Caltracs, Calvert 90/10 shocks up front, and Rancho 9-way adjustables in the rear. I fixed the traction problem and ran a best of 11.673 at 115.91 with a 1.663 60 foot. I still think I can play the Caltracs some more and squeeze a little more out of it but a run in the 11.6's was nice. Only one more click and I will be in the 11.5's

Just curious, with my set-up what kind of 60' times should I be expecting? Are 1.6's about the best I will do or should it be in the 1.5's?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 01:52 AM

Yea I think you should be able to get to 1.60 or even into the 1.5's with a 11.5 capable car. Congratulations by the way on a new best.
advancing cams rocks!!!

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 02:12 AM

Congrats on the new best.

With a MPH of 115.91, if the tracks numbers are correct, that is enough to net you a 11.5 ET with a great efficient chassis and engine set up.

Most street cars dont quite get there, as yours show. But , your getting closer

and sneaking up on it.

Thats how we All do it

The ball park 60ft for a 11.5 run is around a 1.56

With your 1.66 60 ft your ETs are way better then they should be. You shouldnt be out of the 12,s yet, but you are

That means you still have some ET on table yet

thats up for grabs with the power your MPH is showing.

With a 11.67 run a typical sorted out car would have around a 1.58 60 ft. and 114 mph IMO

Its great to see you getting, Oh so close, mike

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 02:31 AM

I still have a few more things to try with the Caltracs to see if I can get a little more improvement but I am curious if a vert change would help me? I currently have a 10" TurboAction vert in the car. For a couple of years I ran an 8" ATI (before advancing the cam). With the 8" ATI it ran a best of 11.817 @ 112.89 w/a 1.657 60'. Do you think going back to the 8" vert now would be wise? I just hated the 8" vert on the street which is why I took it out. Maybe a 9.5" Dynamic vert would be worth a try?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 02:58 AM

I would try putting more pre load into the bars first. 1St a 1/2 turn then another 1/2 with shocks at 7 or 8.
maybe 8 driver 6 pass
try some things!

Posted By: tywebb2

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 03:09 AM

That's the plan. I'll get it out again in the spring and play around with the Caltracs some more. It will be put into hibernation for the winter in the next month or so. As soon as that first salt hits the road the Cuda is put to rest until the spring.

Just thinking out loud on the vert. I am always trying to think three steps ahead

Posted By: 383man

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 10/24/10 03:41 AM

Hey thats great to hear.

You have enough mph for 11.50's. I have run 11.55 @ 115 at Cecil and 11.58 @ 115 at Capital. And I have SS springs so you should do better then me once you get the Caltracs dailed in as the Caltracs seem to work better then SS springs. I think you will pull some 1.50 sixty's also once you dail it in as I have pulled a 1.57 sixty. Real glad to see it going in the right direction for you. Ron

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car - 09/05/13 02:58 PM

So how have things been with the car the bast couple years?

Question about degreeing cam in car