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Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel !

Posted By: 440Jim

Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:27 AM

Katie bar the door!

A new best using E85 and the Ron's Flying Toilet Injection in my Dart. http://killerrons.com

I almost didn't go to the test and tune today. The overnight low temp was low 30's and I worried the ground/track would be too cold to hook. The forecast high was only 49F, and the test session ran from 10am to 6pm. But you don't get the timeslip sitting at home, you have to be there!

The sun did shine all day and the black top absorbed enough heat for my backhalf, ladder bar car to put the power to the pavement.


Maryland International Raceway (MIR), http://www.mirdrag.com , is only at 80 ft elevation. So, the high pressure and dry air mass together with the cool temps produced mineshaft density air conditions to make loads of power, and the Dart hooked it up!

Attached is the timeslip.
The air data was 51ºF, 31% RH, 30.28"Hg
That is about minus 800-850 ft density altitude (DA).

The first pass it went 9.216. So I richened the mixture for the air conditions. It went 9.210 pushing hard on the wheelie bars. So I put more fuel to the fire and aced the starting line on the 5th pass 9.158 at 143.2 mph!

I just adjusted my sig from the old "mineshaft air" best of 1.23, 5.79 @ 116, 9.21 @ 142

Attached picture 5891554-Timeslip_2010Mar27crop.gif
Posted By: 383man

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:31 AM

Wow Jim you are flying ! I should have went to Cecil today. Glad to see running so good. Your hard work really pays off. Ron
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:32 AM

Very nice Jim.... congrats.... sure wish I could see
those conditions
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:33 AM

nice..and I thought the DA 2500 ft this morning at MATS was mineshaft conditions..LOL
Posted By: BobsProFab

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:33 AM


WOW ! congrats on the new best
thats flying
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:36 AM

I had the wideband oxygen sensor system (Innovate LM-1) hooked up. The first pass was 12.6-12.9 A/F ratio (on the gas scale). The first change to richen it went to 12.3-12.5. I richened it again for the last 3 passes. I didn't have time to download the data, but I will post it tomorrow. I expect it to be around 12.0 (gas scale), Lambda 0.81, or actual for E85 about 8.0 A/F (stoich 9.76). I have tried as rich as Lambda 0.78 before and it didn't do any faster, but that was on warmer days.

Anyway, the sixty foot was really hauling mail, 1.228. You got to love this injection!
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:54 AM

....would have been a lot cooler if you did it with those ole Stage VI heads!! Congrats Jim. That's some crazy 60 times!!
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:01 AM

I still have those Stage VI Mopar Performance heads, modified by the Engine Masters team for the 470 CID shootout. Those are part of my backup engine parts. They actually flow pretty much the same as these Indy 440-1 heads below 0.700" lift.

The only reason I took them off was the switch to ethanol. I was worried the epoxy in the ports would be compromised by the alcohol. And they are too good to let that happen. The backup motor is designed for pump gas (11.0 CR), and it isn't a problem with gas.
Posted By: ProSport

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:04 AM

Unbelievable Jim.

1.22 60 foot.
Posted By: Bigcube

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:08 AM

Quote:

Unbelievable Jim.

1.22 60 foot.


X 2, That sixty is killer
Posted By: tboomer

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:10 AM

Fantastic,Jim!! That is just plain hauling the mail!!
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:10 AM

Nice! Gotta love this early spring air.... Pretty high pressure this weekend over East Coast.... I saw 1026 MB/~30.3" on the Baro this AM before we left...

Took my Buddies 436" SB Challenger to Beaver Springs for T&T this AM, got there little late @ 10:45 AM, I registered -1065 feet DA on the Performaire...... That was lowest I've ever seen on it @ BSD. Off top of my head was ~37 degrees & 30% humidity.

Only got 1 pass due to a badly leaking slick, & car spun, so no new best.... air was about -700 ft around 11:45 AM when he got his one & only pass. Know we could have easy bested his previous best 9.87 which was around +600 DA last fall. Should have been in the 70's today. Just perfect weather.... sun on track, ice cold, low humidity air.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:13 AM

Yes Bob,

New bests all around. Sixty foot, 1/8, mph, 1/4 everything.

I think I am pushing this chassis to its limits. But summer air will bring me back to earth. However, the E85 doesn't slow down as much as gas in the hot weather. It is between gasoline and race alky (methanol). If it would have gone 9.10, I would have rejetted for methanol and filled the tank for the shot at the 8.999 timeslip.
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:18 AM

Nice job Jim, that car hauls the mail for sure. Hope all my changes net ET's in that region.
Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:20 AM

Quote:

Yes Bob,

New bests all around. Sixty foot, 1/8, mph, 1/4 everything.

I think I am pushing this chassis to its limits. But summer air will bring me back to earth. However, the E85 doesn't slow down as much as gas in the hot weather. It is between gasoline and race alky (methanol). If it would have gone 9.10, I would have rejetted for methanol and filled the tank for the shot at the 8.999 timeslip.

It's right there! Bet you can already feel it & taste it New best's are GREAT!!!
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Unbelievable Jim.

1.22 60 foot.


X 2, That sixty is killer

Big Jim,
I don't know everything that was going on, but on the 4th pass there was a screw-up and I ended up deep staging. It was a test and tune so I just went for it. The RT was a big red light (no kidding) of -0.134. But what surprised me was the sixty foot of 1.299; and that 0.06 difference from pass 4 (9.18) held to the end of the 1/4 mile. Much bigger difference than I expected for deep staging. Could have been other crap that run (big starting line F-up/delay), but the incremental times (60-330, 330-1/8, 1/8-1000, 1000-1/4) were all normal.

I could have made more passes today. But after the 9.18 and 9.15 timeslips, I was happy to go home with no broken parts and get some dinner and a beer.

New Best: 1.228, 5.76/117, 9.158/143
Posted By: cudabin

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:47 AM

Awesome run Jim!!!

How many pill sizes did you go down???

Timing still at 32??

Cheers,

Arnie
Posted By: 69dart

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 04:25 AM

Thats just flying!

Jim how does your car start on the E85 on cold days. I've noticed my car is almost impossible to initially start if it drops under 40.

I grabbed some starter spray to hopefully save some wear and tear on the starter and battery on those cold mornings.
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 04:35 AM

Awesome


Now you need to update your sig
Posted By: Dap

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 04:49 AM

That Dart keeps getting faster and faster..
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 05:28 AM

Where you able to fatten the injection up emnough to make the car slow down any?
Posted By: MegaDart

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 11:27 AM

Good job! I would die for that D/A!! It was around 2800' here yesterday and we live at sea level!!
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 11:57 AM

Awesom run Jim, Your combo just seem's to go faster and faster.
Posted By: wildcargo

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 11:59 AM

A big Jim and that 60' wow
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 01:34 PM

Quote:

I had the wideband oxygen sensor system (Innovate LM-1) hooked up. The first pass was 12.6-12.9 A/F ratio (on the gas scale). The first change to richen it went to 12.3-12.5. I richened it again for the last 3 passes. I didn't have time to download the data, but I will post it tomorrow.

I downloaded the data from the last 3 runs with the richest pill (0.086") this morning. The graph looks like this (displaying the gas A/F scale):

11.1 A/F: Staging, footbrake at 2500 rpm
12.1 A/F: 1st gear
12.3 A/F: 2nd gear
12.2 A/F: beginning of 3rd gear (6000 rpm)
12.3 A/F: mid point of 3rd gear (6600 rpm)
12.5 A/F: at the finish line (7000 rpm)

For comparison, a 12.0 on the gas scale is Lambda 0.816, or for E85 an actual 8.0 A/F (stoich 9.76).

I have a high speed (rpm) bypass setup, and the spring in the relief valve is adjustable. With the leaner pills, the curve is very flat, but with the richer pill the high speed bypass is relieving pump pressure at the end of the run which is why it got slightly leaner. That could be adjusted if I ran in these conditions all the time.

Arnie, 1st pass 0.098" bypass pill, 2nd 0.090", 3-5 used a 0.086". I think the high speed might have been bleeding pressure even at the beginning of the run, and was really open at the end. I expected the 0.086" pill to be richer based on previous use of that pill. Ignition timing 32º

Cab, Not rich enough to slow it down. I would need to readjust the high speed bypass spring to do that, or just take it off (simple) for testing. The fuel curve would go rich at high rpm (7000) in my application without it. If I would have looked at the A/F curve at the track with the 0.086" pill I would have done that. But I only downloaded it after each of the first 2 runs, and got side tracked.

69Dart, The first start of the day with the Flying Toilet injection takes some technique. E85 is easier than race alky (methanol). That morning was 45ºF, and I squirted some gas down the throttle body, cranked, sputtered. Squirted some more, held throttle (barrel valve) 1/2 open, cranked sputtered, cranked and fired up. About 15 seconds on the starter after the second prime. I would think a carb with accellerator pumps would be easier (doesn't need to develop mechanical pump pressure).

I just adjusted my sig from the old "mineshaft air" best of 1.23, 5.79 @ 116, 9.21 @ 142
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 01:51 PM

And this was through the mufflers! But they are 4" dia straight thru bullets! LOL

They hardly effect ET at all, see this test from last weekend:
Exhaust Test 3-21-2010
But they do add weight. On the track scales last week with the mufflers after a pass, it showed 3230 lbs.

Attached picture 5892147-Bullet_mufflers2.jpg
Posted By: Dartman928

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 01:56 PM

Great job Jim
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:05 PM

Outstanding What impresses me most is the fast 60 ft, and the total ET compared to mph. It is a very well sorted out package to run a low et like that at 143 mph! The mph shows a ton of HP.
Scanning the Superstock national records, you are right there OR BETTER comparing ET to MPH, and beat several records for most efficient combo!
I calculate 3.886 pds/hp. How much you weigh?
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:45 PM

Quote:


I calculate 3.886 pds/hp. How much you weigh?

The car on the scales after a pass last week, with the mufflers and driver was 3230 lbs. I myself am about 220 (6ft tall), plus helmet, jacket, neck brace (helmet support), gloves. A weight reduction program for both the car and driver would be a good idea...
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 02:51 PM

That shows 831 hp on that pass, using the 5.825 constant.
et devided by 5.825/cubed = weight to power ratio.
Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 03/28/10 03:07 PM

Posted By: Runner

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:13 PM

interesting numbers from the guy in the other lane, looks like it was having issues?
Posted By: rt66jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:16 PM

Great #'s Jim. Another good post demonstrating what can be accomplished thru hard work and attention to detail. Well done.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:24 PM

Quote:

it does track all over the country. I found it with 2% when comparing data taken track side.
just chose a track and date then all the weather is there for that day . it even goes back years
here's the link http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-alti...me=Calculate+DA

That is a useful site! I bookmarked it.
They list MIR as 87 ft instead of 80 ft (close enough). I think you need to put in 30.36"Hg (airport barometric pressure corrected to sealevel that they look up) if you put in the track elevation, as that would correct it to 30.28"Hg at the track. Atmospheric pressure doesn't vary much over 10-20 miles, except for altitude change, but the track temp and humidity are better than the airport look up they use. Plugging in 51F, 31%, 30.36"Hg, 80 ft, it gives Density Altitude: -883 feet, Relative Density: 102.61 %
Posted By: moparacer

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:29 PM

All the years I ran Ron's injection it always liked to be pig rich.

Think I am going to put it on my car here pretty soon.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 03:55 PM

Good numbers Jim. Figure out how to drop 100 lbs off the total combo and you'll be in the 8's with a flat tappet shelf cam. (that you bought used!)

Dwayne could probably spec you another flat tappet that would pick up some more power over the MM305 but it might be easier to just find some weight to take off. Hate to open up a motor that is running that great.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 04:08 PM

That`s hauling the mail Man, I wish I could hit a track BELOW sea level instead of 2500-3500+ above. Congrats again.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 04:14 PM

I guess I should list the combo, for completeness.
It is listed in the first post of this topic:

Link to combo post
Posted By: RBDuster

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 06:25 PM

Nice, but you can quit raising the bar. LOL. I am sure you will get your 8 second pass.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/28/10 11:26 PM

Congrats on the new best!

And while you were enjoying the killer air, I was spraying the front & back yards w/ weed killer hoping to head off the "Attack of The Dandelions!"...
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/29/10 01:51 AM

faster and faster is cool.
Posted By: RedRam

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/29/10 02:14 AM

Congrats on the new best .
Posted By: 9 Sec Phill

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/29/10 02:46 AM

well done Jim. Your ride and they way you race amaze me....Phill
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/29/10 11:45 AM

Very impressive Jim! Congrats.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: Mineshaft Air - New Best ET - give it fuel ! - 03/29/10 12:27 PM

Congrats Jim! Sure wish E85 was more available in Houston. Im sure you have done a lot of research and testing and could help us out on it!
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