Moparts
Piston pin "buttons" ... ?
Posted By: dOc !
Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 02:40 AM
NEW spin on an old topic ....
Is this old-school or what ? ... I have heard of many horror stories about clips and spiril-locks breaking-loose or going out and MESSING up the motor big-time.
If buttons are not the plan - WHAT is the up-to-date way to be safe?
Posted By: '72CudaRacer
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 02:42 AM
I ran buttons in my old engine with no problems, but they are heavy compared to new stuff.
Brian
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 06:46 AM
I use nothing but buttons and have for years. With the simplicity of a button, I fail to see why anybody would choose spiro-locks. The weight would only be an issue in a max effort comp style engine and even then, the difference is negligable.
Monte
Posted By: dOc !
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 07:49 AM
M S .. are there diff materials used ? .. list of suppliers?
I think that the weight-issue is far OUTweighed by the possiblity of engine damage.
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 02:11 PM
i was going to post this question the other day. Monte do you know any reason people don't use them more often? all the bike pistons we ran had them and afaik aircraft engines use them. there are a couple different types i'm aware of. solid teflon and aluminum with a teflon insert. as for assembly it doesn't get any easier. they might add a little weight but i doubt it could be much unless you're using very short pins. some of the ones i used fit in the piston and some fit in the pin.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 02:15 PM
I bought an engine, small block chevy , it was a late model dirt engine, I just needed the light crank and got the whole thing. Well It had poly buttons in it. They looked like almond colored gum drops, and they didnt weigh but a few ounces per handfull.
Kasey
Posted By: supercomp
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 02:52 PM
I'm getting ready to order parts for a 511 and now wondering if I should get butons.
Posted By: 72chrgrally
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 04:02 PM
Buttons are the only way to fly, don't have to worry about a lock comeing out and kiling your whole engine. Especally for an N2o app.
Steve
Posted By: DennisJ
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 04:08 PM
Where can you get them? I haven't seen them listed for sale in a long time.
Dennis Jokela
Posted By: supercomp
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 05:42 PM
Quote:
Buttons are the only way to fly, don't have to worry about a lock comeing out and kiling your whole engine. Especally for an N2o app.
Steve
Can you order new custom pistons with buttons instead of locks? Also can you use buttons on pistons already set up for locks without changing pins?
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 05:51 PM
ANY piston company will set you up with buttons, all you have to do is ask. As far as converting an existing engine, thats easy. Measure the diameter of the piston at the barrel where the pin is, subtract the length of the pin and divide the remainder by 2. That is the length button you need. Now if the pin is up into the oil ring, that is a little more difficult, but all you need is the job number from the piston sheet and they can still set you up with buttons. As far as materials, the exotic material I order mine made from is aluminum
Monte
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 08:43 PM
having used them in the past and seeing how simple the setup is why haven't they seen more use? never really studied it just figured there was some good reason they don't get more use. is there an issue with the potential length needed if using a lite piston with narrow pin bosses? for years i have wondered why buttons weren't used more often. after using them on the bike engines and seeing how easy they made things plus i can't ever remember them causing any problems just figured they were a good idea all the way around. they would polish the bore where they rode but can't say i ever saw any negative impact. could it be a cost thing? doesn't seem like they would cost that much more considering it would be one less machine operation on the piston being you don't need a retainer groove. i just wonder about the potential length issue
Posted By: 9 Sec Phill
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 08:49 PM
Anyone have a pic of one?
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 09:03 PM
The reason "buttons" dont get much attention, is the simple fact that most have no idea what they are, or how they work. I think buttons are 3.00 per piston from Diamond, or maybe 3.00 each, but regardless, they are cheap. They can't be used on a super lite "slipper skirt" style piston, but other than that, they are good for any combo with full skirted pistons, which most are.
Monte
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 09:18 PM
after reading this thread, i can't believe i haven't been using 'em. we used them in model airplane engines- bulletproof.
Posted By: supercomp
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/08/10 09:29 PM
Quote:
The reason "buttons" dont get much attention, is the simple fact that most have no idea what they are, or how they work. I think buttons are 3.00 per piston from Diamond, or maybe 3.00 each, but regardless, they are cheap. They can't be used on a super lite "slipper skirt" style piston, but other than that, they are good for any combo with full skirted pistons, which most are.
Monte
Our pistons always have the pin up in the oil ring. Low deck.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 03:57 AM
Not what I meant by a "full skirted" piston. A slipper skirt looks like a circle with rectangle attached to the bottom for a pin skirt. A full skirted piston is exactly that, has a fully round skirt. Has nothing to do with pin location. If the oil ring is in the pin, the button simply has a notch cut in it to support the oil ring.
Monte
Posted By: Mike Swann
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 04:17 AM
Venolia does a good job with wedge and hemi pistons, buttons are pretty normal with them.
Also, they can "cam grind" the skirts. Very few manufacturer's do this any more. It only matters if you make big power.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 03/09/10 04:50 AM
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 01:16 PM
What is the failure rate of a double spirolock?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 02:14 PM
Quote:
What is the failure rate of a double spirolock?
almost never when properly installed. i use single spirolocks (.073) frequently as well as buttons for higher end stuff that'll see more frequent freshen-ups.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 05:26 PM
Quote:
What is the failure rate of a double spirolock?
Not about failure for me. For the same, or even a little more money, I use buttons for ease of installation and simplicity. A double spiro-lock won't come out, if they are the right size and installed properly, but they are a major pain in the a$$ and that is enough for me to do something else.
Monte
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 07:09 PM
i agree, double sirolocks are a pain, not so much to get them in, but to have to take them out on freshen-ups. that's why i typically use the wider singles or buttons if the customer will pay the little bit extra for them. (spirolocks are usually included with the price of the pistons)
here's a picture of some buttons with over 1000 passes on them. the oil ring actually holds these in place. when that's not the case, they are cam ground to go in only one way.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 07:11 PM
another, can't get much easier than that.
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 07:35 PM
that's what i mean as far as assembly, they go together so easy a caveman could do it
i thought there was something i was missing. to me i always thought buttons were great but there must be some reason they didn't get more use in our applications. yes the spirolocks are reliable if properly installed but the buttons are just so simple. i still don't understand why they don't get more attention. i can't really remember seeing any mention of them on any automotive piston site, on the bikes that's all we used. is there any downside in our applications? like i said on the bikes they were teflon or aluminum with a teflon insert. are all the automotive ones aluminum?
Posted By: supercomp
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 08:20 PM
Quote:
i agree, double sirolocks are a pain, not so much to get them in, but to have to take them out on freshen-ups. that's why i typically use the wider singles or buttons if the customer will pay the little bit extra for them. (spirolocks are usually included with the price of the pistons)
here's a picture of some buttons with over 1000 passes on them. the oil ring actually holds these in place. when that's not the case, they are cam ground to go in only one way.
How much more are we talking about Dan?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/09/10 08:28 PM
this is just my opinion, but buttons are better suited to the race motors and not your average daily driver. like i said before, they're better for combo's that require more frequent freshen-ups as opposed to motors that will likely not be torn down for many years or 50,000 miles.
Posted By: blownEFI
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/10/10 01:17 AM
Quote:
Anyone have a pic of one?
Here's a couple pics of my 572 pistons, built by Chuck at Best Machine.
Posted By: dOc !
Re: Piston pin "buttons" ... ? - 03/10/10 04:57 AM
THX furr all the chit-chat guys ... it has been a long, LONG time since I have put together a "floater" piston motor. That - JUST ONE - was a 440 I picked up in-a-basket off of Tradin' Times(weekly classified ad newspaper) in the Detroit area. MT pistons with the big-ole pop-ups AND Dykes rings ....
THAT had the spiril locks and what a PITA ... but that motor FLEW. 119 mph through the muffs ...spinning the tires.
OK now .... makes a lot of sense to go to the piston manufacturer for buttons .. but HOW ABOUT these old-school TRW's ? .....
dHam or M S ...whatcha' got ?
