440 source kit update part 2

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 01:48 AM

Do you plan to run that bearing clearance found .002-.0025? Or a switch out to a HXN type bearing going to be in order to get you more in the .003-.0035 range?

Posted By: moper

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:09 AM

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[I have no real experience, but I agree as long as they weren't oversize and the bushings had to replaced it is a non issue.

I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run. I PM'd Bob in this exact issue that has never been addressed. I simply add the cost of resizing onto the kit when I'm doing a proposal using this stuff. Question for those who do use various quality rods... I'm certain most quality shops do cycle and chec rods out of the box... How many other brands have to be re-machined to get usable? I mean not one or two, but all 8, every time?

Posted By: TS3303

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:14 AM

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[I have no real experience, but I agree as long as they weren't oversize and the bushings had to replaced it is a non issue.

I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run. I PM'd Bob in this exact issue that has never been addressed. I simply add the cost of resizing onto the kit when I'm doing a proposal using this stuff. Question for those who do use various quality rods... I'm certain most quality shops do cycle and chec rods out of the box... How many other brands have to be re-machined to get usable? I mean not one or two, but all 8, every time?

He's talking of the pin/small end they way I read it? Thats why I said bushing.

Big end yes that would be an issue.

Posted By: abodiesonly1

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:16 AM

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[I have no real experience, but I agree as long as they weren't oversize and the bushings had to replaced it is a non issue.

I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run. I PM'd Bob in this exact issue that has never been addressed. I simply add the cost of resizing onto the kit when I'm doing a proposal using this stuff. Question for those who do use various quality rods... I'm certain most quality shops do cycle and chec rods out of the box... How many other brands have to be re-machined to get usable? I mean not one or two, but all 8, every time?

Thank you.

Re-sizing rods is an added cost to any kit, be it source, callies, k1, eagle, or what have you.

Unless of course the builder and/or machinist is giving away free labor.

edit....I was speaking of the big end earlier and I assume BG was also.

Posted By: moparx

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:18 AM

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Because of this misalignment the bearing shells extended past the rod surface. this is not a big issue as the bearings had no interferance at the crank radius. all in all the piston rod assembly looked quite well and in spec.

what would happen if the bearings were scraped to match the rod surface ? would this be benificial or is it even necessary ? would there be any oiling "restriction" if the bearings were left as is ? this is a good thread[s] you guys should get a medal [or at least a beer !]

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:30 AM

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[I have no real experience, but I agree as long as they weren't oversize and the bushings had to replaced it is a non issue.

I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run. I PM'd Bob in this exact issue that has never been addressed. I simply add the cost of resizing onto the kit when I'm doing a proposal using this stuff. Question for those who do use various quality rods... I'm certain most quality shops do cycle and chec rods out of the box... How many other brands have to be re-machined to get usable? I mean not one or two, but all 8, every time?

Dave,I responded to all your PMs.Your discription of the rod condition,having been cycled with 30W oil then molylube creating the need for reconditioning.I didn't respond to that because the engine I recieved had been assembled twice before,and the rods sized before I got it,this may or may not have been the reason for the sizing.If this be the case then that more dollars that has to be spent.

This is only my third Source kit that I have been involved with.

Thanks to Brandon and Jeff,it may be my last.

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by moparts - 01/08/10 03:11 AM

Posted By: sc4400

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 03:41 AM

"only my third Source kit that I have been involved with.

Thanks to Brandon and Jeff,it may be my last.

I've, like many others, have followed this saga with rapt interest. I have 2 540 kits, and I do have issues with "Sources" unwillingness to supply individual parts for their kits. This is a dumb business practice IMO. So I'm no shill for them.

But I've read Brandons thoughts on this build, and he didn't seem out of line, or hostile. It seems like you took way too quick a personal offense to his understandable defense of his business. You started this project with deferential respect towards all. Your sniping about his comments tarnishes your early classy aproach, IMHO

I pulled my brand new 540 crank out of the wrapper this evening, looking for the obvious flaws that you found on yours. The rod journal hole was perfect, unlike yours. My crank was purchased from Source in June of 2007, and never been out of the box. I'm going to use what you are teaching here to improve my program and look hard at potential issues.

Don't lose sight of your original goal, to provide useful insight to us hobby builders.

Keep up the good work, and thanks!

RIP

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 03:56 AM

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I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run.

I think this is the main concern as well as "actual" cost on budget china deals that always seems to get people most frustrated!

Bob thx for all your information...

Posted By: turbobitt

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 04:03 AM

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This would be my curiosity as well. Were the bolts cycled 3-5 times, the rods "relaxed", then put back together and big ends re-measured? Thats where the offshore rods typically start to show signs of trouble. The rest of the numbers arent bad, but the +/-.005 length is a little out of line, but that is fairly typical with the price point type of components...anyones.

Previous owner had the rod end resize after the short block was assembled the frist time.Curt's check was after two torque cycles.

Doesnt this throw any usable data out the window?

Not really,no matter who's rod,Source,Oliver or any rod should be checked and sized.

I would actually agree with this. It seems like every new rod takes some kind of set and/or moves a little. My new Crower Titaniums were trued up after a few cycles.
Allan G.

Posted By: roadrunner470

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 07:19 AM

Just wondering was the center to center .005 or.0005. Thanks for all the info.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 07:27 AM

I never once bashed "source" or their parts in the other thread. I simply stated my opinion on offshore parts in general, what was disclosed in the thread and what I have seen myself. I said I would not personally use the crank. They can trot as many people as they want to out here and say it's fine, but I still would not use that particular crank. That does not make it bad, just that I would not use it. Thats my opinion and my perrogative, as an engine builder, that has to justify letting something leave my shop with my name on it. I don't like it, I won't use it, period. Never said I would NOT use a Source crank, just not that one. Since I did not agree with his position on the matter, he stated that I must be inexperienced, or not know what I was looking at. So who was it again that started the personal attacks? I will agree however, that I mispoke about the better parts "always" being right. Nothing is "always" right and mistakes are made, however, it has been my experience, that the "better" parts are much more often "right" than the cheap parts.

Monte

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 07:37 AM

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Just wondering was the center to center .005 or.0005. Thanks for all the info.

I'd like that answer as well but FWIW if the resizing that was done was to the big end & not just honing the pin fit on the small end than the measurments could have been effected...

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 07:46 AM

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Nothing is "always" right and mistakes are made, however, it has been my experience, that the "better" parts are much more often "right" than the cheap parts.

But isn't it a gamble either way? If murphy's law strikes, you're going to pay for the "better(which actually means more expensive)" parts and they could need as much work as the cheap stuff. Or you could buy a cheaper kit and end up with one that needs little to nothing. You can either buy a $1.5k kit and plan to potentially spend x amount of $ fixing the issues or buy a $3k kit and pray nothing needs fixing. It is a gamble either way because like you say, nothing is 'always' right. You do take your chances, which ever way you go.

Posted By: 493_DART

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 08:10 AM

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I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run.

I think this is the main concern as well as "actual" cost on budget china deals that always seems to get people most frustrated!

Bob thx for all your information...

My 440 Source rods did not need to be re-sized .

Anyone else ?

I like this testing idea , but to be fair we need other users of these parts to post they're experiences ---good or bad .

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 08:31 AM

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I don't agree it's a non issue. Again, these are billed as ready to run. Resizing the big ends is not ready to run.

I think this is the main concern as well as "actual" cost on budget china deals that always seems to get people most frustrated!

Bob thx for all your information...

My 440 Source rods did not need to be re-sized .

Anyone else ?

My small ends needed resizing, my big ends were checked & needed no work...

The rods were equal length enough that when two rods were bolted to a crank throw you can pass a piston pin through the small end of both rods... This is something we would do while I was in the military to verify large diesel rods were straight.. If they vary by a couple thousandth the pin will either bind or not pass through.. So they are very close..

After all the negative comments about 440 Source cranks I paid to have mine hung in the crank grinder & measured.. Indexing, journal sizing, out of round, taper... Everything was checked the corrections were polishing of the crank snout & the seal surface... I spent about $450.00 having extra things checked but at this point I know what I have... And the machine shop I used said they would reccomend 440 Source to Mopar guys in the future.. When I was dropping the parts off they were warning me to expect problems..

Posted By: moper

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 12:26 PM

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[
Dave,I responded to all your PMs.Your discription of the rod condition,having been cycled with 30W oil then molylube creating the need for reconditioning.I didn't respond to that because the engine I recieved had been assembled twice before,and the rods sized before I got it,this may or may not have been the reason for the sizing.If this be the case then that more dollars that has to be spent.

Bob,
I appreciate the responses. What wasn't clear to me from the get go, and maybe others, is that the kit HAD BEEN ASSEMBLED before. Once, twice, whatever, to me doesnt matter. It means your inspection results and findings are not "out of the box" as I ASSuMEd...lol. I'm not faulting you at all. It just clicked in my own head when your findings didn't jive with mine. I've only looked at 5 sets over as many years so by others' definitions I'm just a hack with no valid input

. IMO, Curt's findings in the rods' case are representative of what one might find had one of the first two shops caught and fixed them. It's good that you checked an posted. I believe the manufacturer assumes they are fine as boxed. I assume they are needing some lovin'.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 01:50 PM

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Does anyone know if the broken Cast Eagle crank on unlawfuls was billed as ready to run?

Just an opinion but what would really be beneficial is if 3 or so kits were bought (440source, mancinii, K1) and then compared equally step by step.

Don't be mad at Brandon or Jeff there just bringing there prof. opponion. BG builds bracket motors and Jeff builds ss/ah motors. Input from both is appreciated.

James,I'am not mad at anyone,Brandon nor Jeff,but if they want to contribute do so in an uncondenscending way.I have a good command of the English language and can interpert verbal usage quite well.I respect anyone opinion wether I agree or not.That they piled on at an oppertunistic moment to try and discredit me through their condenscending verbage,caused me to react.That Brandon sells thousnds of these kits is great,dosen't mean there are not issues and he could defend and explain each as he had the oppertunity to do so.That Jeff decided to take his shot and Brandon decided to capitalize on it and they both thought I would crawl under my woobbie blanket was an error in judgement.Seems they both have a stake here.Also you mentioned that I build "bracket" motors and Jeff builds "SS/AH" motors,just how many SS/AH motors does Jeff build,how many are competitive,who are his customers?What do Barton and Jackson(CW) engines build?BGR(if you have ever heard of us) builds competitive,reliable,dependable engines for racers,by racers and we will let our racers speak for us,there is not enough space to even start to list them,just look around.As Judge Judy says"don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" and when some wants to pee on me "out comes my umbrella"

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:02 PM

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Do you plan to run that bearing clearance found .002-.0025? Or a switch out to a HXN type bearing going to be in order to get you more in the .003-.0035 range? [/

Bob,we like.002,.0025 range for this type of build,and never have bearing issues.We use synthetic oils.We have noticed at tighter clearences we have less pressure drop at the big end and shut down.When we run the .003+ we see the drop and use an accumulator.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:13 PM

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Not sure I follow......

Of all the rotating assemblies mentioned above, you have the added expense of re-sizing the rods?

Repeating what has been said a millionXs over.Never assume anything is race ready to use out of the box,be it cylinder heads,cranks,rods, pistons or whatever.Got a set of pistons,premium matched set to the gram,rings included.Rings didnt fit the ringlands.Also got a top of line billit set of rods once,all rods had 1/2 -12 point capscrews one was 7/16 head.

That's true Bob but what is being asked here is isn't this rod critique invalid because someone already corrected them? If these were out of the box then I can see it being a valid exam , but all you are really doing is checking someone elses work and not the as delivered from the source product.

Also, a .005 difference in length, that's acceptable ???

I'm just asking ...

Posted By: Diego_Ted

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:34 PM

Gentelman, I do not see any more good coming from build post 1 so I locked it. All the players gave their

and members have to decide on what is right for them. I say continue with the build and post what is found, (Others may as well) but please leave personal opinions about the products out, just the facts found, I think this is the way BG intended the build to be.

Ted

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 02:36 PM

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Not sure I follow......

Of all the rotating assemblies mentioned above, you have the added expense of re-sizing the rods?

Repeating what has been said a millionXs over.Never assume anything is race ready to use out of the box,be it cylinder heads,cranks,rods, pistons or whatever.Got a set of pistons,premium matched set to the gram,rings included.Rings didnt fit the ringlands.Also got a top of line billit set of rods once,all rods had 1/2 -12 point capscrews one was 7/16 head.

That's true Bob but what is being asked here is isn't this rod critique invalid because someone already corrected them? If these were out of the box then I can see it being a valid exam , but all you are really doing is checking someone elses work and not the as delivered from the source product.

Also, a .005 difference in length, that's acceptable ???

I'm just asking ...

Good point John,and valid questions.We can only deal with the kit we aquired after the owner gave up on it.We got a great deal and are trying our best to make it work and will use this build for one of our racers as a test bed for Brandons kits. Regardless of the issues we intend to do our best and test the duralibility and realiability of the kit and at no risk or cost to anyone,with no personal agenda.No one is a loser here,we can just continue on our merry way as we have done for over 40 years and forget we ever heard of "The Source".As for Curt's measurements,he measured the top and bottom bores devided them in half and measured the bottom of the pin bore to the top of the crank pin bore on the rod and did the math.He took all the varaiences and adveraged them at .005.Admittely there is a more accurate way to measure this with a fixture that I have for measuring rods that he can't find

Saturday I will measure them myself on my large stand micrometer and a marble stand.I will record those dimension for everyone.Curt is a first year mechanical engineering student and trying to do his best at BGR,we are very proud and confident he will a viable member of BGR.

Posted By: roadhazard

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 03:15 PM

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Just wondering was the center to center .005 or.0005. Thanks for all the info.

I'd like that answer as well but FWIW if the resizing that was done was to the big end & not just honing the pin fit on the small end than the measurments could have been effected...

you beat me to it, I asked the question earlier .005" or .0005"
If the shop that previously resized the rods did a um.........lackluster job of keeping everything equal with the amount of material removed in the rod and cap grinder this will effect the C to C lengths.

Being as these rods did not come straight from 440 Source I think you have to put into question the C to C lengths AND the size of the big end as they could have been Dead On Size to begin with.

Posted By: TS3303

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 04:44 PM

it is unfortunate that the kit is not untouched as delivered and will put a * on the final results.

But the general information shared from Team BG (

) will be beneficial to the 99.999999% percent of the worlds engine builders, with no real experience.

"Engine builders who have real experience, (and I'm talking about builders who have built thousands of engines over decades)".

in before the

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 04:44 PM

It appears you have different rods in your kit compared to the ones in mine (bought in 2007). I have 6.535", 2.200/0.990, I-beam, with ARP 8740 bolts.

My pin ends were too tight, so they were honed to fit the pins (normal). The big ends were within spec, but tighter than my machinist liked, so he honed them slightly on the rod machine.

I am using Clevite CB-743HN bearings, as these replaced the CB-743H. I didn't see any bearings stickout or misaligned in my rods, but I only mocked up 2 so far. This is what I measured:

CB-743HN 0.839" total width
CB-743H 0.890" total width with a chamfer to a smaller width
FM7200CH 0.860" total width with a chamfer

Attached picture 5720591-440source_6535_rod1.jpg

Attached picture 5720591-440source_6535_rod1.jpg

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 04:53 PM

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Gentelman, I do not see any more good coming from build post 1 so I locked it. All the players gave their and members have to decide on what is right for them. I say continue with the build and post what is found, (Others may as well) but please leave personal opinions about the products out, just the facts found, I think this is the way BG intended the build to be.

Ted

Ted don't rule from the bench

if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

Posted By: TS3303

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 04:53 PM

Quote:

It appears you have different rods in your kit compared to the ones in mine (bought in 2007). I have 6.535", 2.200/0.990, I-beam, with ARP 8740 bolts.

There have been a few posts of "differences" in their kits. Now feedback from the source on things like that, changes, improvements, etc in the kit over the years shared in a professional manner would have been a plus to the thread.

Posted By: 47hudson

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:02 PM

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It appears you have different rods in your kit compared to the ones in mine (bought in 2007). I have 6.535", 2.200/0.990, I-beam, with ARP 8740 bolts.

There have been a few posts of "differences" in their kits. Now feedback from the source on things like that, changes, improvements, etc in the kit over the years shared in a professional manner would have been a plus to the thread.

Would be nice but after the way he's been treated by many people on this board the past few years I don't think you'll hear much. I don't blame him either, I know I wouldn't put up with some of the crap he has and still post here much less sponsor the site!

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:06 PM

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It appears you have different rods in your kit compared to the ones in mine (bought in 2007). I have 6.535", 2.200/0.990, I-beam, with ARP 8740 bolts.

There have been a few posts of "differences" in their kits. Now feedback from the source on things like that, changes, improvements, etc in the kit over the years shared in a professional manner would have been a plus to the thread.

Brandon has a golden oppertunity to help us understand the issues,concerns and facts of what we see.Explaniations to the whys,whens and the wheres of things to be concerned or not.He can bring "General Custer" as his "expert"

Posted By: cgall

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:13 PM

The obvious flaw in this whole experiment is that you started with a kit that has known problems.

It would have been far more objective to have purchased a new kit anonymously and evaluated it.

You could have entitled this thread "How we inspect and correct manufacturing issues in stroker assembly kits" without naming the manufacturer.

Posted By: HemiDave

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:23 PM

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The obvious flaw in this whole experiment is that you started with a kit that has known problems.

It would have been far more objective to have purchased a new kit anonymously and evaluated it.

You could have entitled this thread "How we inspect and correct manufacturing issues in stroker assembly kits" without naming the manufacturer.

Maybe the title should be, "2nd or 3rd hand 440 Source kit update"...which would make it meaningless...which it seems to be at this point.

BTW, I bought one of their Hemi cranks when they were having a closeout and my builder (that builds Outlaw Pro Mod motors) said it looked very good!!

Dave

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:34 PM

Quote:

The obvious flaw in this whole experiment is that you started with a kit that has known problems.

It would have been far more objective to have purchased a new kit anonymously and evaluated it.

You could have entitled this thread "How we inspect and correct manufacturing issues in stroker assembly kits" without naming the manufacturer.

There were no secrets from the first post and all known information was passed on.The question we all were looking for after all the years of people bashing Source kits,was are they a viable alternative to budget engine builders and is there truely a cost saving or are the just as or nearly as costly as higher priced kits.When all the bashing was going on (over a year ago) I posted that I didn't think there would be any saving if a lot of time and money spent correcting the budget kit.We corrected two kits for two of Brandons customers and things went well.We aquired a kit that frustrated the customer and was presented with and oppertunity to evaluate it here on Moparts at no cost or risk to anyone,in retrospect,I wish I didn't try and be so helpfull to both Brandon and Moparts,but heh thats just my nature,sorry thing got a little testie.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:38 PM

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Nothing is "always" right and mistakes are made, however, it has been my experience, that the "better" parts are much more often "right" than the cheap parts.

But isn't it a gamble either way? If murphy's law strikes, you're going to pay for the "better(which actually means more expensive)" parts and they could need as much work as the cheap stuff. Or you could buy a cheaper kit and end up with one that needs little to nothing. You can either buy a $1.5k kit and plan to potentially spend x amount of $ fixing the issues or buy a $3k kit and pray nothing needs fixing. It is a gamble either way because like you say, nothing is 'always' right. You do take your chances, which ever way you go.

All I can give is my opinion. Although I have not built thousands of motors, which it seems to take to be considered experienced by some, I have built a lot. Most of them are big HP stuff, so I rarely use the cheap kits, but I have used them, on some stock and lower HP builds and here is what I have found. I prefer the K-1 kits. Yes, they cost a little more, but I have NEVER had to correct one thing, on any K-1 kit, that I have personally bought. Am I saying they are all perfect, no, but I have never had an issue. Never had an issue with Eagle either, but the shop foreman is a personal friend, so I disqualify them, as I get great service and attention, but I know some have had issues. I have used some Source parts, as well as Scat and some others. I have yet to have a kit from one of those places, that did not need something. Be it crank work, rod sizing, balance, something was not as I wanted it. Now admittedly, I am extremely picky and will not just "let it go". I want it "right" and am going to have it that way. Just because there is an accepted tolerance, does not mean I accept it. I square and set decks, align hone and basically race prep, every motor I do, even if it is a stock rebuild. If you are going to do it, why not do it right. My method costs me some business, because some don't want to pay for the extra work, for what they intend to do, but my method also gives me an excellant reputation with my customers, as providing powerful and trouble free engines. So, even as picky as I am, the K-1 kits, satisfy my needs, the others, not so much. I will also mention, that I have no connection to Callies, or any of the other companies listed. I pay full price, just like anyone else, so that is no consideration. I use what I have had good luck with. So yes, while ANY part can be a gamble, I choose to go with the better odds.

Monte

Posted By: QWK_ENUF

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 05:42 PM

My 440 Source rods did not need to be re-sized .

Anyone else ?

I like this testing idea , but to be fair we need other users of these parts to post they're experiences ---good or bad .*****

i am going on my 3rd season with my source 511 and no problems so far

i used a 4.25 stroke source crank

with chevy size rod jornals

clearances on rod and mains were about .0025 and i wanted a little more

all work was done at Van Sensus auto parts who do most machine work in our area

crank was very nice and was good as is

i used a std rod bearing on the top and a .001 under on the bottom

for the mains they polished it for a little more clearance

i used a set of Elgin rods that had to have the small end rebushed as the were not straight

the source pistons were perfect

van sensus also balanced the assy and used a tiny bit of mallory because the elgin rods were heavier than source rods

cost me $45 to dress up the mains and $80 to rebush the elgin rods

balancing was $150

Posted By: Diego_Ted

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 06:27 PM

Ted don't rule from the bench

if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

What I would like to say is, I have no problems with facts found, I adjudicate claims for a living and live and die by the fact. I do have a problem with inuendo or pseudo facts (opinions) because they help no one, they are like #$@$% everyone has one. Everyone who has spent any amount of time on here knows what goes on in these types of posts, so to keep things civil, personal opinions about good, bad, ugly are just subjective. The only objective stuff is facts, so lets post facts and let the members decide who they want to spend their $$ with.

Diego

Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 06:58 PM

bob i didnt mean to,, and thought i didnt take a shot at you or your shop. i read that post for a few days,, just checking in and seen many guys asking what it would take to "fix the issues" but when i read it i didnt see any issues that were different from other parts,, it seemed to me that 440 source was being singled out. maybe i use inferior parts in motors i build and im just accustomed to having to do all these things, scat, callies, ohio cranks with pins drilled on angles that ARENT drilled through, main bearings that need to be narrowed or scraped cause the crank has a 1/8" radius, bearings that dont line up cause the tang location on the bearing is a little off,, or the slot in the rod.. these are problems with every kit thats on this planet just about,, maybe not the k-1, ive never seen them

ill tell a story about the bearing misalignment that bob found,,, i have a few rods that we have machind into big end square fixtures for narrowing bearings in the bridgeport with a boring bar,, a 2.200 bb chevy, 2.375 bb mopar,, 2.00 chevy, 2.100 chevy,,, ive seen bearings misaligned in all of them, when we narrow them we correct it, but we usually only narrow bearings when needed or for class race stuff, in my manley I beam rods that cost 1300 bucks or so,, the bearings dont line up out of the box, in my factory rod i use for a fixture they do not line up,, so id imagine its a bearing problem, not a tang location issue,,, or maybe you can look into this bob since you are helping out the moparts crowd, look at the 440 source rod as compared to a factory rod for the tang location to seee where the problem lies..

as for me building ss/ah motors and how competitive i am and so on,, i make 900 or so hp,, charlie makes 940-950, ray makes 980,, to my perception,,,, im working on it but taking a 2500 gram bobweight and a 440 cubic inch hemi that runs to 9000rpm is not your typical bracket motor you build,, these thing break parts very easily, i dont break anything,, though ive had piston issues this year learning how much cam shape in the skirt you can run and how it stabilizes the piston rock, skirt profiles, headland diameters, ringland clearance, cylinder wall finish,, etc... had a few issues,, ran ok in the beginning of the year,, but messed up a few things later on..

bob,, if you could list the issues so we could get a re-group and have a post specific to what guys need to look for when building, i think they kinda got lost in all the random posts, then guys can determine if they are actual issues or not and decide if they want to fix that particular part or whatever...

jeff

Posted By: turbobitt

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 07:43 PM

Having bought these kits/parts before, this is what I would like to see...FWIW this would pertain to every kit manufacture.
1 - running list of issues found so that they don't get buried in the post.
2 - Typical cost to fix these issues weather or not you decide to pass that along to the customer.
3 - This kit was bought ballanced so after measuring the individual parts and calculating the bobweight, and spinning the crank in the machine, was it found to be correct ?
4 - was it worth buying the kit pre-ballanced since a lot of time was invested remeasuring and rechecking ? It seems like 50% of the work is repeated in rechecking stuff.
5 - Were any parts returned or unacceptable to use ?
6 - Were the parts exchanged and if so, how was customer survice ?

Would like to see these answered since I'm a Hobbiest that likes to assemble my own stuff and often buy budget parts.
Not asking for any comparisons to Callies, Winburg, Crower or anything like that.
Allan G.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 08:00 PM

Quote:

It appears you have different rods in your kit compared to the ones in mine (bought in 2007). I have 6.535", 2.200/0.990, I-beam, with ARP 8740 bolts.

I didn't see any bearings stickout or misaligned in my rods, but I only mocked up 2 so far.

I just finished checking these things on all 8 of my rods. I used 1 bearing pair that came out of one of my previous freshen-ups. The bearing tang location lined up the bearing shells nicely in all the rods.

I also did a check on the rod lengths. The only thing I can do at home is measure the bores with a mic (0.0001") and the distance between the holes with a caliper (0.0005" readout), then calculate the length. So it may not be perfect, but this is what I came up with FWIW:

6.5339
6.5343
6.5339
6.5344
6.5339
6.5334
6.5345
6.5346

6.5341 Average (at 55�F). I think that set variation is fine, +.0005/-.0007

Attached picture 5720994-Rod_length_measurement.jpg

Attached picture 5720994-Rod_length_measurement.jpg

Posted By: rowin4

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 08:30 PM

With turbobitt, starting with a known problem crank was probably not he best thing to start a lets publish the facts on a new kit, not a second time around kit. We need the facts, nothing but the facts My source kit checked out within acceptable tolerances, it must have been correct as the machine shop ripped me a new #$%^& on the block prep. We need the facts , no commentary input from the peanut gallery . Got that, no other input!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: supercomp

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 08:45 PM

Why would a machine shop take a balanced assembly that was in spec and proceed to mess it up?

Posted By: moparniac

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 08:48 PM

I still say 10 different engine shops would have 10 different results... and I really dont think bob came on here to micro manage "440 source"... its just that well. 440 source stuff has been under the gun since day one I guess......

Have any of you guys seen The FAIL thread on Yellow Bullet.... all kinds of parts / brands going down tubes

Posted By: varunner

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 09:49 PM

Ok, I'll throw in my 2 cents. I don't know BG, but based on reading his posts over the last few yrs, he seems to be very knowledgeable. Even though his post on this stroker kit is intended to be a public service, it's not coming across in a very good light. I think it's completely unfair to evaluate someones products, when that product is used and has had machine work done on it. Look at it like this, what if I bought a used BGR motor off of someone, and that motor had been re-assembled and altered since it was first built. I then took it apart and posted what I found, just for informational purposes. I doubt BGR would appreciate it. If you want to evaluate an engine kit, buy a new one.

Posted By: therocks

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 09:52 PM

My opinon is any body can have bad parts.Ive seen too many new parts that are bad and Ive been doing it as a pro for almost 30 years.This is a good thread so lets not screw it up.My Source heads impressed my machinist and he has been doing it for over 30 years and build it all from Packard 8s to blower motors.A few members here know him and he is very very fussy.So Bob keep plugging away at it and lets see the results.I for one appreciate it.Rocky

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 10:54 PM

Quote:

My opinon is any body can have bad parts.Ive seen too many new parts that are bad and Ive been doing it as a pro for almost 30 years.This is a good thread so lets not screw it up.My Source heads impressed my machinist and he has been doing it for over 30 years and build it all from Packard 8s to blower motors.A few members here know him and he is very very fussy.So Bob keep plugging away at it and lets see the results.I for one appreciate it.Rocky

Stole Max's woobbie,feeling warm and fuzzy

alittle damp to,I may have just peed myself

All is good

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 11:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Gentelman, I do not see any more good coming from build post 1 so I locked it. All the players gave their and members have to decide on what is right for them. I say continue with the build and post what is found, (Others may as well) but please leave personal opinions about the products out, just the facts found, I think this is the way BG intended the build to be.

Ted

Ted don't rule from the bench if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

This is America.....Right

Rickster

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 11:09 PM

Quote:

Ted don't rule from the bench

if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

and that is your opinion Ted....

I for one like to see the Censorship kept to a minimum...

Rickster

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 11:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ted don't rule from the bench if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

and that is your opinion Ted....

I for one like to see the Censorship kept to a minimum...

Rickster

no kidding, keep your opinions to yourself

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/08/10 11:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ted don't rule from the bench if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

What I would like to say is, I have no problems with facts found, I adjudicate claims for a living and live and die by the fact. I do have a problem with inuendo or pseudo facts (opinions) because they help no one, they are like #$@$% everyone has one. Everyone who has spent any amount of time on here knows what goes on in these types of posts, so to keep things civil, personal opinions about good, bad, ugly are just subjective. The only objective stuff is facts, so lets post facts and let the members decide who they want to spend their $$ with.

Diego

and that is your opinion Ted....

I for one like to see the Censorship kept to a minimum...

Rickster

no kidding, keep your opinions to yourself

Any body wanna borrow my woobbie blankee(slightly damp)

Posted By: 1swingin

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 12:07 AM

I love this thread. Iam getting ready to purchase a 470 low deck kit and its good to see the pros and cons of the source kits. Iam sure none of them are "drop it in and go racing" kits but iam learning alot about what to look for and checking everything 5 times. Iam a budget minded racer and was leaning towards the source kits but the more i read,the muscle motors kit is looking better and better. Thanks for all the info.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 12:13 AM

Quote:

I love this thread. Iam getting ready to purchase a 470 low deck kit and its good to see the pros and cons of the source kits. Iam sure none of them are "drop it in and go racing" kits but iam learning alot about what to look for and checking everything 5 times. Iam a budget minded racer and was leaning towards the source kits but the more i read,the muscle motors kit is looking better and better. Thanks for all the info.

I know of several people you can buy a drop in kit from

Posted By: Diego_Ted

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 01:03 AM

I have no issue if your posting facts,

personal attacks will not be tolorated

, this comes from the Boss not us mods.

Diego

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 04:09 AM

Quote:

I have no issue if your posting facts, personal attacks will not be tolorated , this comes from the Boss not us mods.

Diego

Must have missed something Ted...didn't see any personal attacks...actually pretty impressed to see that also

Rickster

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 04:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ted don't rule from the bench if the threads break no rules I suggest letting them run their course. just my opinion for whats it's worth.

What I would like to say is, I have no problems with facts found, I adjudicate claims for a living and live and die by the fact. I do have a problem with inuendo or pseudo facts (opinions) because they help no one, they are like #$@$% everyone has one. Everyone who has spent any amount of time on here knows what goes on in these types of posts, so to keep things civil, personal opinions about good, bad, ugly are just subjective. The only objective stuff is facts, so lets post facts and let the members decide who they want to spend their $$ with.

Diego

and that is your opinion Ted.... I for one like to see the Censorship kept to a minimum...

Rickster

no kidding, keep your opinions to yourself

Any body wanna borrow my woobbie blankee(slightly damp)

No Thanks Bob....Wife got me my very own for Xmas

Rickster

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 09:08 AM

Quote:

James,I'am not mad at anyone,Brandon nor Jeff,but if they want to contribute do so in an uncondenscending way.I have a good command of the English language and can interpert verbal usage quite well.

BG don't take this as a personal attack, just an observation. I respect you and what you're doing, but I feel this needs saying. Perhaps you need to go back and re-read your previous posts. You started out with the little remarks and attitude before brandon or jeff even chimed in. If I were in their shoes, I would have probably reacted in the same way. Don't try and tell us your pooh doesn't stink like eveyone else's. You buried your comments in there a little better, but the message still comes through loud and clear. I'm not defending or bashing anyone, but you didn't exactly take the high road either.

But thanks for doing what you did and addressing the issues. However like others have mentioned, this would have been more helpful on a current, previously untouched kit rather than an older one that's been monkeyed with already. Still very helpful though.

Posted By: 493_DART

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 09:40 AM

TO THE MODS -

PLEASE.....JUST LET US HAVE ONE FREAKIN TOPIC WHERE WE CAN CONVERSE ON A POPULAR SUBJECT -----

NO ONE WILL BE HURT , NO ONE'S FEELINGS WILL BE HURT.

THIS IS A GREAT SUBJECT AND WE ALL WANT TO SEE RESULTS FROM A SHOP--- I DONT SEE ANY SERIOUS BASHING AND IF ANYONE HAS ANY COMMON SENSE THEY WILL DETECT ANY OBVIOUS BIAS .

I ENCOURAGE ANOTHER SHOP TO DO THE SAME THREAD WITH A EAGLE , SCAT , ETC... KIT NEXT MONTH.

THIS IS GREAT INFO WITH MEASUREMENTS AND PICTURES.

PLEASE.........MODS....LET US MAKE UP OUR OWN FREAKIN MINDS FOR ONCE !!!!

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 02:30 PM

Quote:

TO THE MODS -

PLEASE.....JUST LET US HAVE ONE FREAKIN TOPIC WHERE WE CAN CONVERSE ON A POPULAR SUBJECT -----

NO ONE WILL BE HURT , NO ONE'S FEELINGS WILL BE HURT.

THIS IS A GREAT SUBJECT AND WE ALL WANT TO SEE RESULTS FROM A SHOP--- I DONT SEE ANY SERIOUS BASHING AND IF ANYONE HAS ANY COMMON SENSE THEY WILL DETECT ANY OBVIOUS BIAS .

I ENCOURAGE ANOTHER SHOP TO DO THE SAME THREAD WITH A EAGLE , SCAT , ETC... KIT NEXT MONTH.

THIS IS GREAT INFO WITH MEASUREMENTS AND PICTURES.

PLEASE.........MODS....LET US MAKE UP OUR OWN FREAKIN MINDS FOR ONCE !!!!

PLEASE STOP YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: coro500net

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 03:07 PM

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

Posted By: moparts

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 03:15 PM

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 04:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

lock it, with out opinion on both sides it's worthless

Posted By: max_maniac

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 04:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

lock it, with out my opinion it's worthless

Fixed it for ya

Posted By: Sixpak

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 04:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

lock it, with out opinion on both sides it's worthless

I'm sure there's a LOT of other guys like me watching this thread and so far have been keeping their comments and opinions to themselves, so maybe they can learn something. How about holding off on all the other comments, opinions, etc. until maybe after BG and company have posted everything they have on this thread?
If you want to get a thread locked, try another thread...or maybe the mods should remove any replies other than those from BG and company?

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 05:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

lock it, with out opinion on both sides it's worthless

I'm sure there's a LOT of other guys like me watching this thread and so far have been keeping their comments and opinions to themselves, so maybe they can learn something. How about holding off on all the other comments, opinions, etc. until maybe after BG and company have posted everything they have on this thread?
If you want to get a thread locked, try another thread...or maybe the mods should remove any replies other than those from BG and company?

different point of views from other qualified builders is a good thing. BG is more than qualified to do the test and it really doesn't matter if the kit is new or used. I doubt very seriously if any of the previous builders of the kit did anything to change what BG has found. the only thing letting other people voice their opinions is it saves a hundred other threads about the same subject and easier to keep up with. if you really need something like this to guide you there is a problem. find you a good builder you can trust and let them select a kit that will work for you....

Posted By: wyoming

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 05:39 PM

I've built two motors with the 440 Source parts, one for my car and one for a friends car, bother were the RB 493 kits, both checked out good, I cycled the rod bolts several times on both since I had seen the warnings before on the offshore rods, both miced out ok, the kits I bought weren't balanced by 440 Source, local machine shop that builds round track SBC motors did that for me, the small ends of the rods had to be honed, but knew that was the case beforehand. My motor has 350 or so passes on it, no issues with it, buddies has 100 I would guess, both cars run in the 10.3 10.4 range, mine weighs 3740 with my big butt in it, his is lighter, so far the parts have worked well for us. I've checked bearings on mine after having a roller lifter come apart, changed the bearings because of trash, plan on checking them again over the winter, so far the parts have worked fine for me.

Posted By: DoubleD

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 05:57 PM

Well opinions are like arses everyone has one! and Qualified is one of the most overused term on the internet today - everybody is qualified at something - even the village idiot is qualified at what he does!

The thread started as being informative then the bashers started - is this a representative sample of the product - NO! it's just a

on the internet - save the drama for your mama!

Most of the guys on here have no idea what it was like 25 years ago - a good crank, rods or pistons were not available for a couple of grand - even then you got parts that had to be re-worked - if you want bolt together stuff out of a catalog go race a go-kart!

Posted By: Sixpak

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 06:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

lock it, with out opinion on both sides it's worthless

I'm sure there's a LOT of other guys like me watching this thread and so far have been keeping their comments and opinions to themselves, so maybe they can learn something. How about holding off on all the other comments, opinions, etc. until maybe after BG and company have posted everything they have on this thread?
If you want to get a thread locked, try another thread...or maybe the mods should remove any replies other than those from BG and company?

different point of views from other qualified builders is a good thing. BG is more than qualified to do the test and it really doesn't matter if the kit is new or used. I doubt very seriously if any of the previous builders of the kit did anything to change what BG has found. the only thing letting other people voice their opinions is it saves a hundred other threads about the same subject and easier to keep up with. if you really need something like this to guide you there is a problem. find you a good builder you can trust and let them select a kit that will work for you....

I've built plenty of street and drag car motors myself, but I am still open minded enough to see what I can learn from someone else. Others may benefit from this thread in its original intended format; you may not, but there's no reason to suggest locking it - that's just selfish.
Right now, that someone else I want to learn from is BG and company, which was the original intent of this thread, until it started getting derailed. I have yet to work with any of the Source parts and want to learn from what BG and company have to say.
If you or others want to talk about your results, insert your opinions or your experiences go start another thread, separate from this one, so this one doesn't end up getting locked.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 07:57 PM

Quote:

#5720373 - Fri Jan 08 2010 09:36 AM

Admittely there is a more accurate way to measure this with a fixture that I have for measuring rods that he can't find Saturday I will measure them myself on my large stand micrometer and a marble stand.I will record those dimension for everyone.

Looking forward to data, rather than talk from everyone...

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 08:01 PM

Quote:

Notice these rods are supplied with ARP 2000 rod bolts.

From 440source.com:
Additional Kit options:
Upgrade to ARP2000 rod bolts: $70

Posted By: HemiDave

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 08:01 PM

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

Posted By: Old School

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 08:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Im looking to go with a 470 also.
Who has the drop in kit?

This thread is a factual thread about the ONE set up that BGR has in his shop.

This thread is NOT:

A place to sell your other kits
A place to ask about other kits
A place to voice your opinion

Just the facts and stay on subject or the thread gets locked

WOW!!!

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 08:25 PM

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases options on these results.

Dave

and Thank You .... Apples and Oranges, although it is a very informative thread it should really not be an assessment of value towards a budget kit in my mind unless it was randomly purchased directly from the vendor...not second hand and most certainly not a few years old

Rickster

Posted By: rt66jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 08:59 PM

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction.

Jim

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 09:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction. Jim

it makes no difference

Posted By: abodiesonly1

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 09:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction. Jim

it makes no difference

Why doesnt it make a difference?

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 09:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction. Jim

it makes no difference

Why doesnt it make a difference?

because nothing was done to the crank by the previous owner to create these problems or issues if thats what you want to call them.

Posted By: HemiDave

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction. Jim

it makes no difference

Why doesnt it make a difference?

because nothing was done to the crank by the previous owner to create these problems or issues if thats what you want to call them.

Quote from BG Racing:
"That the supplier missed it is one thing,the guy who bought it is another,the guy that preped the block machine work and started to assemble is still another mystery and it wasn't till it came to BGR after repeated questions and a request for help did we start to completely evaluate the kit for everyone on Moparts did this all come to light."

Too many 'mysteries' for me. A valid test should start with a NEW kit. I don't know, but that sure SOUNDS reasonable...

Dave

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction. Jim

it makes no difference

Why doesnt it make a difference?

because nothing was done to the crank by the previous owner to create these problems or issues if thats what you want to call them.

Quote from BG Racing:
"That the supplier missed it is one thing,the guy who bought it is another,the guy that preped the block machine work and started to assemble is still another mystery and it wasn't till it came to BGR after repeated questions and a request for help did we start to completely evaluate the kit for everyone on Moparts did this all come to light."

Too many 'mysteries' for me. A valid test should start with a NEW kit. I don't know, but that sure SOUNDS reasonable...

Dave

doesn't sound like a mystery to me, it is what it is. if you don't want people posting what they find sell good stuff

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:39 PM

by the way people are bashing eagle cranks on another post, don't see anybody whinning about that

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:42 PM

I better look for that post and bash Eagle cranks...

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:47 PM

Quote:

I better look for that post and bash Eagle cranks...

who's bashing? all I have seen is BG posting what he finds

Posted By: HemiDave

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:56 PM

Quote:

by the way people are bashing eagle cranks on another post, don't see anybody whinning about that

How many hands did those cranks go through after they were purchased? How many of them were USED cranks?

Dave

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/09/10 11:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I better look for that post and bash Eagle cranks...

who's bashing? all I have seen is BG posting what he finds

I am going to that other post and bash Eagle cranks. Too much BS and no more data in this topic.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 12:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I better look for that post and bash Eagle cranks...

who's bashing? all I have seen is BG posting what he finds

I am going to that other post and bash Eagle cranks. Too much BS and no more data in this topic.

I am with you

BG get on the ball you can't take a day off after starting this thread

Posted By: ro23car

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 12:55 AM

this is almost as good as the ah thread. but there were other pepole involved with this engine before bob got it. iirc he stated it was assembled twice and someone allready resized the rods.

Posted By: dirtybee

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 01:29 AM

is it too late to get back to the great pics and tech info? i learned some stuff from these two threads and would love to see and read more. thanks bg racing for posting the data, and hopefully this thread can get back on track. it WAS a great read. peace, dave

Posted By: abodiesonly1

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 01:39 AM

I don't get what some people are thinking.....its simple really.

If you're going to take a product, analyze it, find out what it needs or doesn't need, you dont start with a 2nd hand, re-machined, assembled/disassembled product. You take said product as it would be delivered from the vendor. New and unused.

It defeats the whole purpose.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 01:42 AM

Quote:

I don't get what some people are thinking.....its simple really.

If you're going to take a product, analyze it, find out what it needs or doesn't need, you dont start with a 2nd hand, re-machined, assembled/disassembled product. You take said product as it would be delivered from the vendor. New and unused.

It defeats the whole purpose.

what makes you think the results would be any different? feel free to buy a new kit and do so

Posted By: ro23car

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 01:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't get what some people are thinking.....its simple really.

If you're going to take a product, analyze it, find out what it needs or doesn't need, you dont start with a 2nd hand, re-machined, assembled/disassembled product. You take said product as it would be delivered from the vendor. New and unused.

It defeats the whole purpose.

what makes you think the results would be any different? feel free to buy a new kit and do so

what makes you think they wont? alot of buildrs wont touch other pepoles stuff.

Posted By: abodiesonly1

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 01:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't get what some people are thinking.....its simple really.

If you're going to take a product, analyze it, find out what it needs or doesn't need, you dont start with a 2nd hand, re-machined, assembled/disassembled product. You take said product as it would be delivered from the vendor. New and unused.

It defeats the whole purpose.

what makes you think the results would be any different? feel free to buy a new kit and do so

I didn't say they would be. You honestly believe using something that has been re-worked once, is giving an accurate and fair analysis of the product and/or company as a whole?

Posted By: 340duster340

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:05 AM

Quote:

... Everything was checked the corrections were polishing of the crank snout & the seal surface... I spent about $450.00 having extra things checked but at this point I know what I have... And the machine shop I used said they would reccomend 440 Source to Mopar guys in the future.. When I was dropping the parts off they were warning me to expect problems..

of course they would recommend it if they could up-sell an additional $500 of work for every kit that came in the door.

that being said...for the price, i guess this is par for the course.

i am seriously considering a stroker kit, so threads like this are definately helpful for me to calc my all in cost for the motor build.

Posted By: rt66jim

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Does everyone honestly think that getting a kit that someone else has already modified is a good representation of that company's kit? Even though this is a USED kit, it will forever be REMEMBERED as the "440 Source kit". Which it is not. It is a kit that was modified by a few people before being evaluated. That is not a valid test of a 440 Source kit.

A new, unused 440 Source kit is the ONLY way to determine if the parts included pass the clearance and finishing tests.

I would not consider this a valid test of a 440 Source kit and would not base my purchases/options on these results.

Dave

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe I missed something. My understanding was that this kit had been purchased and looked at by another person/builder. Who determined it was over his head. BG is that a correct understanding? If incorrect please feel free to point me in the right direction. Jim

I was not trying to imply it didn't make difference. It was my understanding. 1.That the orginal purchaser had ?'s about it. 2.He sought the advice of another. Whom he thought was capable of answering his ?'s. 3.That this person determined that it issues over his head. Jim

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:19 AM

Quote:

is it too late to get back to the great pics and tech info? i learned some stuff from these two threads and would love to see and read more. thanks bg racing for posting the data, and hopefully this thread can get back on track. it WAS a great read. peace, dave

We are taking a little break to let all the speculation,assumptions,opinions as well as attitudes run their course.Once things settle down we may continue.Things were getting a little tense and even I found myself getting cought up in the moments.The guy that bought the kit thought he was buying a upgraded kit that was ready to install,hense the ARP 2000 bolts,H-beam rods and the balance.He was a hobbist and wanted to do his own work.As far as other hands,Chaz helped him get the mains cut and fitted,he had some issues with the rod bearings and we suggested he have the rods checked,we were busy and he took the rods to a local reputable shop.He and a friend had issues getting the pins in and out of the pistons and issues try to check the clearences on the rod bearings as well as the timing gear fit on the crank.He was told that the rods were tight at the parting lines.He came back to us and asked us to look at the crank after his buddy pointed out the ugly flange and the unfinished hole.He was frustrated,we "asumed" it was just he thought he know more than he did and was over his head,an inexperienced novice engine builder.At first he asked us to help him finish the build,then decided to cut his losses and offered the entire engine to me for half what he had in it.We thought that it would be an informative thread for everyone on Moparts to get to join us in the venture of building this engine,from the Source kit to Indy top half,and into a BGR& Moparts racers car for performance evaluation.Something unique to Moparts.Presenting all the facts,good,bad or ugly,seems no one wants it that way.Some only want to here praise of good,others want to find ony the bad and ugly crap but many would like to know the facts and the truth of what to expect or look for or how to handle issues and learn.If we can all be open minded we could all gain from this and other projects together.A mind is like a parachute,it only works when it's open.Those who only want to here the good,those who only want to here the bad and those who want to bring their personal agendas for argument are few but hurt it for all those who want share this venture.Respectfully Bob George

Posted By: HemiDave

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:34 AM

True, if you are going to run this as a comparison test, it should be fair. Starting with a kit that has already been worked on by a 'mystery' guy (your description) doesn't seem fair.

Dave

Posted By: jerrya

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:35 AM

I, for one can appreciate the intent of this thread. But damn, can't everyone just play by the rules, or don't post.....

Posted By: abodiesonly1

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:42 AM

Quote:

We are taking a little break to let all the speculation,assumptions,opinions as well as attitudes run their course.Once things settle down we may continue.Things were getting a little tense and even I found myself getting cought up in the moments.The guy that bought the kit thought he was buying a upgraded kit that was ready to install,hense the ARP 2000 bolts,H-beam rods and the balance.He was a hobbist and wanted to do his own work.As far as other hands,Chaz helped him get the mains cut and fitted,he had some issues with the rod bearings and we suggested he have the rods checked,we were busy and he took the rods to a local reputable shop.He and a friend had issues getting the pins in and out of the pistons and issues try to check the clearences on the rod bearings as well as the timing gear fit on the crank.He was told that the rods were tight at the parting lines.He came back to us and asked us to look at the crank after his buddy pointed out the ugly flange and the unfinished hole.He was frustrated,we "asumed" it was just he thought he know more than he did and was over his head,an inexperienced novice engine builder.At first he asked us to help him finish the build,then decided to cut his losses and offered the entire engine to me for half what he had in it.We thought that it would be an informative thread for everyone on Moparts to get to join us in the venture of building this engine,from the Source kit to Indy top half,and into a BGR& Moparts racers car for performance evaluation.Something unique to Moparts.Presenting all the facts,good,bad or ugly,seems no one wants it that way.Some only want to here praise of good,others want to find ony the bad and ugly crap but many would like to know the facts and the truth of what to expect or look for or how to handle issues and learn.If we can all be open minded we could all gain from this and other projects together.A mind is like a parachute,it only works when it's open.Those who only want to here the good,those who only want to here the bad and those who want to bring their personal agendas for argument are few but hurt it for all those who want share this venture.Respectfully Bob George

I can respect this......I just think the findings should have an exclamation point next to them. i.e. being a kit that has been worked on by others and of course YMMV, as to how it may pertain to other source kits.

I would like to ask a question if I may. If I have read correctly, this is the 2nd/3rd source kit you have used. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you have any data from those particular builds and what needed to be done?

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 440 source kit update part 2 - 01/10/10 02:53 AM

Quote:

True, if you are going to run this as a comparison test, it should be fair. Starting with a kit that has already been worked on by a 'mystery' guy (your description) doesn't seem fair.

Dave

At the moment you would only have a issue with the
rods... correct and if thats the case they were in
acceptable range now, other than the rods everything
else was untouched(to my understanding)
Bob, is the block ready or does that still need to be
checked yet. I hope you continue with the project
for those that are willing to listen

440 source kit update part 2