Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body?

Posted By: GTSDave

Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 05:04 AM

I am still torn on what to do with my headers. I have a set of ProParts and even test fit them with good results.

But, I believe they are too small for my engine combo. I have heard they are a great street header, but for my combo which is race only, they may leave lots of HP on the table.

This is a 496" low deck with SR heads ( I have some CNC325's to put on later) STR-15 with dual 800's with a Jerico in a 68 Cuda.

I was hoping someone had run them or dynoed them against the pro-parts headers and could give me a comparison. The tube length on the ProParts are all over the place. Stahl doesn't give any info on tube length on their site.

This is a link to the headers.

http://www.stahlheaders.com/Frame%20New%20Drag.htm

-Dave

Posted By: mike s

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 06:58 AM

Quote:

I am still torn on what to do with my headers. I have a set of ProParts and even test fit them with good results.

But, I believe they are too small for my engine combo. I have heard they are a great street header, but for my combo which is race only, they may leave lots of HP on the table.

This is a 496" low deck with SR heads ( I have some CNC325's to put on later) STR-15 with dual 800's with a Jerico in a 68 Cuda.

I was hoping someone had run them or dynoed them against the pro-parts headers and could give me a comparison. The tube length on the ProParts are all over the place. Stahl doesn't give any info on tube length on their site.

This is a link to the headers.

http://www.stahlheaders.com/Frame%20New%20Drag.htm

-Dave

[/quote

I have used the Stahl fenderwell headers in the past.Without a doubt the nicest set I ever used.However the pipes were too long.Very equal but too long.We went faster with under the chassis adjustable Hooker Super Comps.Perhaps he will make them to a custom length or adjustable for your combo.

Posted By: GTSDave

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 03:48 PM

Mike,

The under chassis stuff probably wont work for me because I am running a Jerico, and had to use the stock type mechanical linkage (NSS Rules)

What was your combo back when you tried them? I am set up with a 496 and will be shifting at 6,800 to 7k.

-Dave

Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 04:10 PM

why r u running 2 1/8 size?
really no need to run that big (unless you're over 528" motor?
i think you will lose bottem end torq
& hp up top
we have several cars running 9 with
bigger motors and 2" headers
i can see a step type header?? but unless you're
prostock , some crazy, there is no need to be that big on headers

i'm going to build a 500 an i very seriously considering 1"7/8 size header

i think i can build more hp & torq over the 2"
i have!

i know of couple cars running deep into the 10s
with 1"5/8 street headers!!

Posted By: GTSDave

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 04:33 PM

I was going with 2 1/8 because my engine is a clone of a friends. He picked up quite a bit switching from 2" to the 2 1/8". He is in an early B-Body in the 9.60's

I was more concerned about the tube length mismatch of my ProParts headers and was looking for an alternative. I figured while I was buying headers, that I should step up because of the difference it made on my friends engine.

Also because I will eventually upgrade my block and go bigger along with my 440-1 heads sitting in the closet hehehehe.

-Dave

Posted By: mopartony

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 04:40 PM

Dave, I have them for my Dart. If you want pics let me know and I will send them to you.

The only issue you will have is if you go to the aftermarket master cyl. You will have to move a tube around it.

That is what is done on mine.

Tony

Posted By: Ari440

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 05:19 PM

can you post pics here MOPARTONY

Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 05:42 PM

As already mentioned, you don't need that large a primary IMO. Someone good can build you a set if your concerned about leaving something on the table. (The STR will do that by itself.) Check the ads on Racing Junk...I saw some companey posting custom builds for B-eng. A-bodies. 2" is the most common (cost-effective) option and more than adequate. With the set I just built, BS headed 451 "B" A-body, I doubt they would be a limit to 800+HP.

Attached picture 5659124-header2.jpg

Posted By: GTSDave

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 05:43 PM

Tony I would Love pictures. I am using elephant ears, and have a rear/firewall bracket as well. I moved my clutch linkage some because of the pro parts, and I suspect the Stahl tubes will give me more room.

I have a two bolt MC that is re-worked for my Aerospace brakes. I am not sure how the sizing is compared to a stock one, but moving one tube will not be too much trouble.

Also how is plug access on these?

-Dave

Posted By: mopartony

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 06:11 PM

Quote:

can you post pics here MOPARTONY

Ari, I will do it once I get home. I can not get to the site here at work.

EDIT: Here is a link to my Dart at bigblockdart.com I have some others that I will post but this should show you fit and finish. Note the tube being turned and rewelded on the driverside.

http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/Stahl.shtml

Dave, once you see the pics you will know if they will work. also don't do like I did. The tubes will fit if the motor is not moved back. I did a little massaging on my fire wall before I test fit them... I was an a-hole.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 07:32 PM

IMO, you are at the dividing line for 2" and 2-1/8". The average length of the ProParts is a little long for you, so if the 2-1/8 are closer to 32", I think that would be the ticket. Call Stahl and ask. Now if your combo is heavy (over 3400), small cam, low CR, etc. then the 2" might be just fine. Another gauge to help decide, if you are 3200 or less, and make enough steam to go low 9's and 7200+ rpm (finish line), the 2-1/8 should be the ticket.

I love the 2-1/8 x 32" x 4" collector on my 511 CID. I ran the ProParts 2" back when I had the 470 CID. Looking at my sixty foot times I don't think the 2-1/8 are killing any torque! LOL
496 is just at the line depending on combo/application.

Posted By: GTSDave

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 09:21 PM

Jim,

I don't know the final weight yet, but it is a CM cage, and will have lexan, fiberglass fenders, hood, bumpers and deck lid. I am finishing the paint to put it back together. It is a new build so I have no idea what the final weight will be.

Going to have plenty of steam and should be somewhere in the low 9's.

-Dave

Posted By: Gumbydammit

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 10:56 PM

According to the Stahl site, suggested retail or list is over $1400. I would think there is someone in Texas that can build you a nice set of mild steel headers for that or a little less. If you are a member of the Texas Outsiders, someone there might be able to reccomend someone.

Posted By: n20mstr

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/10/09 11:31 PM

i have been 8.30's at 162 wityh Pro Parts headers

3500lb car

think they want to sponsor me??

Most people put too large of a header and never seem to pick up enough performance to justify the cost...You already have Proparts ?? then spend the $1000.00 or more on lightening the car or something else...but thats just my

Posted By: 446acuda

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 12:47 AM

those Stahl headers look a lot like Tubular Automotive headers except Tubular are 2"/3.5". With Tubular Automotive headers, clutch linkage can be in the stock location, easy to change plugs and good starter access. They were designed by Ed Hamburger and are supposed to be the the best flowing non-custom bb A-body headers.

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 12/11/09 12:56 AM

Posted By: Ari440

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 01:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

those Stahl headers look a lot like Tubular Automotive headers except Tubular are 2"/3.5". With Tubular Automotive headers, clutch linkage can be in the stock location, easy to change plugs and good starter access. They were designed by Ed Hamburger and are supposed to be the the best flowing non-custom bb A-body headers.

... x2 i have a set i got from Muscle Motors a few years ago are made just like them from what i can see. and cost like 450 bucks.

do they work with indy heads

there are also HEDMAN HEADERS

any body use these

Posted By: Dap

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 01:50 AM

Quote:

i have been 8.30's at 162 wityh Pro Parts headers

3500lb car

think they want to sponsor me??

Most people put too large of a header and never seem to pick up enough performance to justify the cost...You already have Proparts ?? then spend the $1000.00 or more on lightening the car or something else...but thats just my

And he is under 500"

Posted By: 540dust

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 02:09 AM

I went from pro parts to 2.125 Stahls when I had the 451 although I also uped the compression at the same time but picked up a little over a 1/10th in the eighth mile. When I went from Stahls to TTI 2 to 2.125 steps it didnt seem to hurt it either. Pro Parts range from like 33" to 54" in length, Stahls are equal length and I think are 34" long, TTI's are not tuned but much closer in length than the Pro Parts. You will have turning radius issues with the Stahls, but they are a breeze to take off and on. Additionally, the Stahls are lighter cause they are made of thinner material, made very well but after a few years will crack and you will be repairing them often.

Posted By: ProSport

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 03:36 AM

I wish those 2 1/8 equal length Stahls weren't so expensive I'd love to try them on my car. I have covers that unbolt, they cover the holes where someone used to have fender well headers, so they should bolt right on. I currently have the ProParts on my 500" low deck. I initially thought the Proparts were hurting my combo but after carb jet and air bleed tuning it picked up to a 9.82 at 136 so I don't think the headers are hurting now.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 02:13 PM

Quote:

This is a 496" low deck with SR heads ( I have some CNC325's to put on later)

I found this old post info that was so amazing, I saved it. Every application can be different, but it seems close enough to consider. I would bet the ProParts would beat the Hooker fenderwells (long), but not the step header.

Quote:

Fast68plymouth dyno test, 493 CID
Includes Hooker Super Comp A-body fenderwells (2" x 43")
versus his dyno headers, stepped 2 to 2-1/8", 32" long (12" + 20")

test A-M1 4150/905 carb/1" open spacer/dyno headers

test B-M1 4150/1050 carb/2" adapter/dyno headers

test C-M1 4500/1050 carb/no spacer/dyno headers

test D-M1 4500/1050 carb/no spacer/ A body 2" headers

rpm--A/tq/hp---B/tq/hp----C/tq/hp---D/tq/hp
3700-----------------------------------------586/413
3800-----------------------------------------598/433
3900-----------------------------------------607/451
4000-521/397-------------------524/399---619/471 = +72 hp
4100-525/410---519/405----524/409---632/493
4200-555/444---533/426----545/436---631/505
4300-594/486---588/481----599/490---635/520
4400-605/507---594/498----617/517---636/532
4500-611/524---618/530----618/530---640/548 = +18 hp
4600-628/550---623/546----628/550---635/556
4700-632/565---634/567----630/564---635/568 = + 4 hp
4800-628/574---637/582----635/581---632/578 = - 3 hp
4900-630-587---632/589----634/592---626/584
5000-624/594---625/595----632/602---619/589 = -13 hp
5100-623/605---626/608----625/607---619/601
5200-617/611---622/616----624/618---612/606
5300-615/620---621/627----619/625---606/612
5400-609/626---620/637----609/626---599/616
5500-603/631---606/635----612/640---593/621 = -19 hp
5600-591/630---600/640----599/639---586/625
5700-587/637---600/651----597/648---578/627
5800-585/646---592/654----592/654---576/636
5900-578/649---589/661----584/656---560/629
6000-571/653---581/664----580/663---553/632 = -31 hp
6100-565/656---576/670----576/670---550/639
6200-557/658---567/669----560/661---538/635
6300-546/655---561/673----556/669---526/631
6400-541/660---549/669----544/663---516/629
6500-530/655---541/670----540/668---504/624 = -44 hp
6600-518/651---535/672----527/663---494/620 = -43 hp
6700-509/650---523/667----518/661---484/617 = -44 hp
6800--------------514/665----511/662---476/616 = -46 hp

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 06:17 PM

Aren't there too many variables to know if swapping headers made a difference? If the dyno test was done just swapping headers alone it would be obvious. But swapping carb spacers and carbs makes the chart useless for comparing headers.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/11/09 08:28 PM

Read the chart carefully. The only difference between column C and D is the header swap.

Posted By: forphorty

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/12/09 01:40 AM

looks like the Hookers KILLED the dyno headers on the low end. Further confirmation not to overheader on a mild combo. I assume the dyno headers would have performed absolutely awful on a 500 hp motor.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/12/09 01:50 AM

A car with a race converter with a 5000-5500 stall speed would be better at any rpm the car sees on the track with the bigger/shorter header. But it is eye opening to see the trade off at low (street) rpm.

My big block converter goes to 5400 when I mash the gas!

Plus GTSDave (who this post is about) is talking about a 496 CID turning 7000 rpm. I think it is well over 500 hp and his converter should be in the range I am talking about.

A 383 in a heavy car shifting at 5800 rpm would be better off with the smaller/longer header. But that is another topic.

Posted By: GTSDave

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/12/09 04:38 PM

Jim,

If it performs like the one we cloned, then it will be closer to 800hp and I dont have a converter, I have a clutch

Great chart though. I would love to know more about the dyno headers they used. Even still, they hookers performance suprises me. So many people rag on the hookers, I never even considered them an option.

-Dave

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/12/09 05:27 PM

Hooker S/C headers are the best performing headers I have had on my car.

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/12/09 05:30 PM

Quote:

Read the chart carefully. The only difference between column C and D is the header swap.

ok..I see it now. That's for pointing it out.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/12/09 08:49 PM

Quote:

Hooker S/C headers are the best performing headers I have had on my car.

I don't think you are using the same part number headers that Hooker makes for the '68 Cuda BB, 43" long fenderwells.

Posted By: Sixpak

Re: Anyone Running Stahl 2 1/8" headers on a BB A-Body? - 12/14/09 05:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

those Stahl headers look a lot like Tubular Automotive headers except Tubular are 2"/3.5". With Tubular Automotive headers, clutch linkage can be in the stock location, easy to change plugs and good starter access. They were designed by Ed Hamburger and are supposed to be the the best flowing non-custom bb A-body headers.

... x2 i have a set i got from Muscle Motors a few years ago are made just like them from what i can see. and cost like 450 bucks.

do they work with indy heads

there are also HEDMAN HEADERS

any body use these

Tubular Auto headers will not work with an A body RB Indy SR combo without some work. I had to add about 2" to each pipe to get them under the car, and trim the web between the floor pan and outer rocker.

Attached picture 5667196-headers2.jpg