Moparts

Ring & Pinion pattern. I'm stumped. Measured it.

Posted By: 67Charger

Ring & Pinion pattern. I'm stumped. Measured it. - 11/02/09 06:16 AM

17 attempts and counting...

Currently at:

.0195" shim behind driver side carrier bearing
.098" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing
.060" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup
.076" shim between the pinion and small bearing

Backlash is at .009"

Pinion free spin torque is about 3 inch pounds w/o seal. I'll be removing a few .001's from the preload shim pack to bring that up. These are new Strange gears and Timken bearings.

It looks to me like it might need some more pinion shim to bring the pinion closer to the axles. What says the hive mind? How much of what?

Drive side


Coast side
Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 12:18 PM

Are you using a case spreader?
Try moving the carrier .003 closer to the pinion.
Where its at right now ain`t that bad.
A perfect pattern is`nt easy to get
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 01:42 PM

the pinion is to close to the carrier needs to be moved out. remove pinion shim.
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 01:44 PM

here is one i just did. Pinion shim was .043 backlash .005.

Posted By: 68roadrunner

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 01:49 PM

Quote:

the pinion is to close to the carrier needs to be moved out. remove pinion shim.




move the pinion away from carrier, and you will see the drive and coast marks start to move across from each other.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 02:43 PM

Quote:

Are you using a case spreader?
Try moving the carrier .003 closer to the pinion.
Where its at right now ain`t that bad.
A perfect pattern is`nt easy to get




The previous setup attempt was with the carrier shimmed .006 closer to the pinion, which gave me .004 backlash and about the same pattern. I'm going to pull some pinion shim and try gain... I kept moving the pinion deeper when I was getting marks on the drive toe and coast heel. My backlash was off too, so I never saw a perfect pattern, but the marks did swap sides to drive - center, coast - toe. I guess I passed it.

I don't have a case spreader, but I have about .010" more shim in there than I can force the carrier in by hand with. I use a rubber mallet to drive it in, and it has some decent drag to it when free-spinning.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 06:52 PM

-.005" pinion shim helped some, but not enough. I would venture to say about .010" more out and I'd be closer.

I'll try it and post it up after work.
Posted By: CRIKEY

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 09:32 PM

Are you loading the gear set when checking the pattern?
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/02/09 09:51 PM

Quote:

17 attempts and counting...

Currently at:

.0195" shim behind driver side carrier bearing
.098" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing
.060" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup
.076" shim between the pinion and small bearing

Backlash is at .009"

Pinion free spin torque is about 3 inch pounds w/o seal. I'll be removing a few .001's from the preload shim pack to bring that up. These are new Strange gears and Timken bearings.

It looks to me like it might need some more pinion shim to bring the pinion closer to the axles. What says the hive mind? How much of what?

Drive side


Coast side




All that shim on one side is telling you dont have enough shim under the inner pinion bearing..
You need to move the pinion out toward the ring gear..
Add about .020 or so under the inner pinion bearing and watch how it falls together..
Once you move the pinion out some the back lash will setup much better..


Also its hard to see a good pattern cause there isnt much load on the gears. Have a friend hold a wrench on a ring gear bolt and you turn the pinion with the breaker bar. Tell him to try and stop you from moving the gears...
The pattern will look much better.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 03:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

17 attempts and counting...

Currently at:

.0195" shim behind driver side carrier bearing
.098" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing
.060" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup
.076" shim between the pinion and small bearing

Backlash is at .009"

Pinion free spin torque is about 3 inch pounds w/o seal. I'll be removing a few .001's from the preload shim pack to bring that up. These are new Strange gears and Timken bearings.

It looks to me like it might need some more pinion shim to bring the pinion closer to the axles. What says the hive mind? How much of what?

Drive side


Coast side




All that shim on one side is telling you dont have enough shim under the inner pinion bearing..
You need to move the pinion out toward the ring gear..
Add about .020 or so under the inner pinion bearing and watch how it falls together..
Once you move the pinion out some the back lash will setup much better..


Also its hard to see a good pattern cause there isnt much load on the gears. Have a friend hold a wrench on a ring gear bolt and you turn the pinion with the breaker bar. Tell him to try and stop you from moving the gears...
The pattern will look much better.





I must be misunderstanding what you're saying... I already have the carrier shifted way to the driver's side (away from the pinion). If I add more pinion shim, it will decrease my backlash and require even more offset to get my backlash back.

Pulling pinion shim out and moving the pinion away from the axles seems to be bringing the pattern back. I'm going to go out and take another .010" out of the pinion and see what happens.
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 03:34 AM

It doesn't matter how much carrier shims you use per side. You need to keep the backlash at its setting as you change the pinion shim. The only thing that matters is the pattern.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 04:08 AM

You have PM
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 04:53 AM

Pulling the pinion out .010" should get it close. BTW, I've always been able to get a nice pattern with Strange gears, either US Gear or the Motives. Not always that way with the off brand stuff.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 05:18 AM

Attempt 18 - Back pinion out .005". Resulted in slightly improved pattern and slightly more backlash. Needs more in this direction. No pics.


Attempt 19 - Back pinion out .010. Resulted in backlash increasing to .017"
Drive

Coast


Attempt 20 - Swap carrier shims by .015 to move carrier in towards pinion. Resulted in backlash reducing to .004". Too far

Drive


Coast

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:01 AM

Don't we love setting up Dana spicer rear ends, especially the Dana 60 Do you have a set of set up bearings? If not get some I remember paying Bob Lambeck $75.00 to set the gears up in my Dana for the four speed Hemi Cuda, best money ever spent I charge $150.00 now and it still takes 8 hrs+ to do one usually
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:03 AM

What do you think about the backlash? Take care of it with the carrier, or move the pinion out a bit? .004 seems a bit tight. Should I shoot for the usual .008 - .012?
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:05 AM

Quote:

Don't we love setting up Dana spicer rear ends, especially the Dana 60 Do you have a set of set up bearings? If not get some I remember paying Bob Lambeck $75.00 to set the gears up in my Dana for the four speed Hemi Cuda, best money ever spent I charge $150.00 now and it still takes 8 hrs+ to do one usually




I was just over ar Bob's shop a few hours ago... He's rebuilding the 427 for the '69 Stingray I'm restoring for my Mom.

No, I don't have setup beaings. Just a 40 ton press and a splitter.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:15 AM

Got a couple extra inner races... Got a brake hone.. Then you have set-up bearings... It will be so worth it... 8.75 is so much easier... Back when I was doing Dana's I fabbed a spreader out of some pieces of .5x1.5 flat bar & a big turn buckle.. Just don't over do it with the turn buckle...
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:20 AM

Oh man...Dan I've got dana 60 setup bearings I can send you if you want them (sounds like it may be too late though)..Let me know.

It took me 21 hours to rebuild my Dana 60 start to finish (including making setup bearings, etc)...lol..I'm slow. But I had no press and homemade tools which sure made it interesting.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:24 AM

I'm getting pretty fast... About 15 minutes to remove the carrier, swap shims, reinstall and check. 10 minutes to pull the pinion, reset shims and reinstal. lI'm close, but I'm torn whether to move the carrier or back the pinion out. I think I should move the carrier about .005 away from the pinion to get my backlash back up. .004 lash seems too tight, but the pattern is starting to look good.
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 06:55 AM

.004 is too tight imho....I would go back to where you were at setup 19 and move the pinion depth in by .007 which also decreases backlash (from your .017 reading) and that should move the drive pattern slightly towards the toe, and the coast pattern slightly towards the heel.

Maybe I'm wrong....
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 07:56 AM

Currently at:

.028" shim behind driver side carrier bearing
.090" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing
.045" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup
.057" shim between the pinion and small bearing

Backlash is at .008"


Attempt 21 - Moved the carrier away from the pinion by .007. Backlash now .008" What says the hive mind? Go with it or fiddle around some more???

Drive


Coast


Both
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 10:50 AM

Man am I glad I have a 9"..

Looks like too much work..

Keep at it, you're getting close..


Chris..
Posted By: moparmxz

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 12:21 PM

.004 will be fine i set mine at .oo3 with no issues.I,ve had some guys tell me its to tight ,but i have found it makes the gears last longer for me.

Attached picture 5583504-IMG_0046.JPG
Posted By: B1KILLER

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 12:27 PM

Quote:

Man am I glad I have a 9"..

Looks like too much work..

Keep at it, you're getting close..


Chris..




X2

But when I have to work on my 70 Cuda its a different story, have a Dana
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 02:33 PM

Try .030 behind the inner pinion bearing, and reset back lash and pattern
IMO you want the largest foot print across the ring gear as possible and still have the correct back lash..
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/03/09 02:35 PM

Not a very good pic but you can see my foot print.

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 03:37 AM

Should I keep chasing it? What direction next? I'd guess a little thinner pinion shim, maybe .005" more out... What backlash should I be shooting for?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 03:53 AM

Dan, are these new gears? If so set them up as tight on the backlash as the manufacturer suggests, they will wear in some and the backlash will increase some on the first hard hit I like to shoot for the least amount of backlash as I can get away with(manufacturer suggested minimum) and get the pinion depth as deep as possible that still looks good Richmond recommends setting the pinion depth .010 deeper on a drag race gear set up than the depth printed on the back of there pinion gears.
Posted By: RussW

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 03:53 AM

Looks like you're goin crazy and this is just my opinion.

I'd go back to # 21 set the BL at .10 and run it .

What brand gear is that ??
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 05:08 AM

Quote:

Looks like you're goin crazy and this is just my opinion.

I'd go back to # 21 set the BL at .10 and run it .

What brand gear is that ??




I'm still at #21... Backlash is at .008. These are brand new Strange gears and new bearings. If anything I was going to pull a bit of pinion shim out, but if deep is the recommended setup...???
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 05:31 AM

I am a big fan of a proper pattern, i hate noise from the rear and the vibration it brings with it.

I see the drive and coast are now on the same part of the gear so you are real close. Can you have someone with a lot of pressure hold a prybar between the case and the spool while your turning it so it cleans up the lead and gives us a better look.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 05:36 AM

Lemme see what I can do...
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 05:49 AM

Drive



Coast

Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 05:57 AM

I think the pinion is still in to deep. BUT before you change it bring the back lash down a couple of thou to .006-.007 and take a look.

When doing rears you usually need to move the pinion shim .003 to see a difference.

I wish i could stay up and help you but i'm east coast!. good luck here i just found a link on line of pics to help you out:
http://www.precisiongear.com/pgtechpatterns.htm
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 07:01 AM

Pulled .005 pinion shim out, putting me at .040 pinion shim, .052 preload shim. Backlash was at .007, now at .009.

Drive


Coast
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 04:23 PM

What does Strange want for the minimum backlash? I would set it at that and run it with no change to the pinion depth with this pattern. BTW, I did buy a Pro Parts pinion depth tool yyears ago and use that for setting the pinion depth, not just the pattern
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 05:18 PM

like above bring the backlash down and i think you will be good.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/04/09 06:07 PM

I just called Strange, and they said .005 - .009, with even .004 being OK since everything is new. I'll swap .004 carrier shim which should move me about .003.

We'll try again after work.

Thanks for all the help guys!
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/05/09 05:14 AM

Attempt 23 - Moved the carrier into the pinion by .004. Backlash is now .006.

I'm just about "done" with this thing... in one sense of the word anyway.

Drive


Coast
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/05/09 05:46 AM

The drive side looks close, the coast side still looks like it wants the pinion moved in a touch. Once you're close, moving the pinion or the backlash .001 or .002 will make a visible difference.I would maybe move the pinion in .001 or .002, keep the BL around .006 to .008, see what that does and work from there. Sometimes you have to find the happy medium. Depends how close to "perfect" you want it. As I've said before, the Strange stuff usually goes together as nice as any of them.
Posted By: CRIKEY

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/05/09 11:03 AM

DUDE you are definately doin it tuff.....I see you havent mentioned weather or not you are loading the gear set when setting the pattern?? I cant see any marks on the spool or ring from a lever or like?
Cuple tips, always clean the paint/paste off the both ring & pinion each time you make a shim or BL change, dont apply to much paste (which you have there)it makes for difficult reading, the extra paste tends to wipe over the tooth & disturbs the pattern.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/05/09 02:20 PM

I was thinking that quite awhile back that $50 to $100 spent with a reputable mechanic would have been well spent.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/05/09 02:49 PM

Quote:

DUDE you are definately doin it tuff.....I see you havent mentioned weather or not you are loading the gear set when setting the pattern?? I cant see any marks on the spool or ring from a lever or like?
Cuple tips, always clean the paint/paste off the both ring & pinion each time you make a shim or BL change, dont apply to much paste (which you have there)it makes for difficult reading, the extra paste tends to wipe over the tooth & disturbs the pattern.




I've been putting a wrench on a ring gear bolt and using a breaker on the pinion to apply resistance to get the pattern. I'll clean it and try again with less compound on the teeth.

Quote:

I was thinking that quite awhile back that $50 to $100 spent with a reputable mechanic would have been well spent.





What, and miss all this fun? ...but seriously, I have the tools to do it, and it's only this bad the first time. Lesons learned this time will make the next sets easier and faster. Gotta learn somehow, right? No better way than by doing.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/05/09 03:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

DUDE you are definately doin it tuff.....I see you havent mentioned weather or not you are loading the gear set when setting the pattern?? I cant see any marks on the spool or ring from a lever or like?
Cuple tips, always clean the paint/paste off the both ring & pinion each time you make a shim or BL change, dont apply to much paste (which you have there)it makes for difficult reading, the extra paste tends to wipe over the tooth & disturbs the pattern.




I've been putting a wrench on a ring gear bolt and using a breaker on the pinion to apply resistance to get the pattern. I'll clean it and try again with less compound on the teeth.

Quote:

I was thinking that quite awhile back that $50 to $100 spent with a reputable mechanic would have been well spent.





What, and miss all this fun? ...but seriously, I have the tools to do it, and it's only this bad the first time. Lesons learned this time will make the next sets easier and faster. Gotta learn somehow, right? No better way than by doing.



We do quite a few and usually get it set with in 3 or 4 resets.The first thing we do is check the carrier bore for proper centerline and then set the correct pinion depth,then we set the carrier shim packs behind the bearing races to get the ring close and backlash.We then install the shims on the carrier in the proper location and recheck and adjust if necessarry.On S-60s we just use a spanner wrench to set the ring gear.
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/06/09 01:33 AM

Quote:


What, and miss all this fun? ...but seriously, I have the tools to do it, and it's only this bad the first time. Lesons learned this time will make the next sets easier and faster. Gotta learn somehow, right? No better way than by doing.




I hear you Dan...I did my Dana just so I could say I did it. I enjoy this stuff....it would have been cheaper to pay someone for me (opposed to buying the tools, etc)....but I want my car build by ME.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/06/09 07:46 AM

Attempt 24

Moved the pinion .003 deeper. (closer to the axles)


Currently at:

.032" shim behind driver side carrier bearing
.086" shim behind passenger side carrier bearing
.043" shim behind the big pinion bearing cup
.056" shim between the pinion and small bearing

Backlash is at .005"

Drive



Coast



What do thes markings mean? I know they should be the piniond depth, but from what point of reference? Ideal seting? what is that? The ones I pulled out had no such markins, so I don't know where it started.

Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/06/09 11:19 PM

Any last recommendations before I seal it up?
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/06/09 11:37 PM

Looks good to me...them numbers= 1 set is matching number for the the ring gear you will find a set just like it on the ring gear. 2 is pinion depth.

here is a pic hope it works

Attached picture 5590311-8002ab2d.gif
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 12:38 AM

Quote:

Looks good to me...them numbers= 1 set is matching number for the the ring gear you will find a set just like it on the ring gear. 2 is pinion depth.

here is a pic hope it works




.. so mine is "NO", as in zero offset, and 011 matching number?
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 12:44 AM

your pattern looks nothing like mine after we finished it last weekend. I wouldn't be happy with it. from what little bit I know about setting them up it needs some more tweaking.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 12:53 AM

Quote:

your pattern looks nothing like mine after we finished it last weekend. I wouldn't be happy with it. from what little bit I know about setting them up it needs some more tweaking.


Something doesn't quite look right.Who's gear set?New or used?
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 01:01 AM

I tell you this. it is way to hard to tell.one thing it is feel thing about how much pressure you use to get that ..pattern. I use a 3ft bar to loan /put pressure to get the pattern.. you can not loan it like it would be in the car. so how do you ask someone how much pressure did you use to get that pattern?..I going to asume he doing this by hand with light pressure. he is not far off. I see them be dead on and the rear end make noise. I see where you think they would make noise and don't..I do this for a living I build at lease one a week..
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 01:18 AM

Quote:

I tell you this. it is way to hard to tell.one thing it is feel thing about how much pressure you use to get that ..pattern. I use a 3ft bar to loan /put pressure to get the pattern.. you can not loan it like it would be in the car. so how do you ask someone how much pressure did you use to get that pattern?..I going to asume he doing this by hand with light pressure. he is not far off. I see them be dead on and the rear end make noise. I see where you think they would make noise and don't..I do this for a living I build at lease one a week..


Jamie,the drive side isn't to bad,but the coast side pattern is not consistent from tooth to tooth and the angle or pitch seems off.I wander if the ring gear is seated on the carrier flange flush or the races seat squarely in all the bores.We like to see a consistent contact patch either in the middle of the tooth or to the lower 2/3 and similar on the drive and coast.Maybe Doctor Diff will chime in.
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

your pattern looks nothing like mine after we finished it last weekend. I wouldn't be happy with it. from what little bit I know about setting them up it needs some more tweaking.


Something doesn't quite look right.Who's gear set?New or used?




The drive pattern looks close, except that I don't like the inconsistency from tooth to tooth. The coast side is not right. Are you sure this set of gears came from Strange? New or used? I've never seen a Strange (US Gear or Motive) pinion look like that. I have seen some cheap import stuff do this. You could make one side or the other look half decent, but not at the same time.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 01:29 AM

Is the rotation free or is there more drag in some areas,like the ring is moving in and out of the pinion or back and forth?
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 01:45 AM

Quote:

Is the rotation free or is there more drag in some areas,like the ring is moving in and out of the pinion or back and forth?




Real, new Strange gears from Summit. They were on backorder for a long time. B/L is consistent within <.001 measured at 5 points around the gear. Incinsistencies in pressure is a result of me trying to apply resistance to both the pinion and ring at the same time. I'll try and cycle it again.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 06:55 AM

Alright, I'm convinced not to seal it up yet, but what next? Drive looks good, but I can't find any reference material on what to do with the diagonal coast pattern.

I retorqued the caps to 80 and the ring gear bolts to 110 and ran it again with no change. Rotation is smooth all the way around, and has proper pinion and carrier preloads dragging. I'm using a strap wrench around the spool wedged against the case. It takes about 30 - 40 ft-lb to turn the pinion and slip past the wrench. Pattern is slightly wider, but same position and shape.

Moving the pinion deeper seems to move the drive towards the heel and the coast towards the toe. I don't know if I want to do that...
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 02:29 PM

First things first,Check the accuracy of the housing bores.The Dana 60 bearing race is 3.813 divide it by 2 equals 1.906.Measure with a straight edge and indicator across the seat areas for each side cap down to the center of the radius.If it measures less than 1.906 it is below the true centerline and if it is more it is above the true centerline.These differences must be added or subtracted to the pinion depth.If you don't know the correct pinion depth it can be calculted by measuring the thickness of the pinion head and subtracting it from the mounting distance for a Dana 60(3.125").The difference will be the depth that the pinion should be installed.If your pinion is marked +- a number,add or subtract it in thousands to your pinion depth.
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 03:01 PM

Very well said BOB Mods's this thread needs to be put some where for other's to read and use.It is very hard to help someone on the Internet to do something like this..As a old guy that been building diff for many years..and learn how to do it the old school way ( by feel).It real hard for me to type-out what I see or feel.And I am always afraid to say something in fear of leading someone the wrong way.I see this stuff and I want to reach out and touch it.So lot of times I don't say anything..But I really do want to help..
Posted By: RussW

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 05:48 PM

Just a thought, went back and looked at some of the pix, were the tubes welded at housing ?
If housing was maybe at one time repaired with heat or pinion race bore repaired , LIKE MY 60, pretty much impossible to get a textbook pattern
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 08:18 PM

Not as far as I know, but it is just a $100 housing from a Ford pickup, so who really knows. No tube-to-housing welds. I brought the pictures down to Bob Lambeck since I had to go by there anyway, and he said run it. The conflicting/angled patterns show that this set may be impossible to get "perfect", but it is well within the acceptable range as is. I'll still measure the housing as Bob George suggested.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/07/09 08:40 PM

Dan, the used Dana 4.10 OEM gear set I put in my Duster (same housing as yours probally, 3.125 axle tubes diameter) looked decent on the drive side but I could not get a decent looking pattern on the coast side, I did have to have the gear set glass beaded to get the rust off of it before trying to set it up I tried sevral different depths and ended up leaving it looking like your latest one It is quiet and faster than the 8 3/4 was I agree with "Bucks up" Bob on running it the way it is now
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/08/09 02:09 PM

Not telling you what to do,just some more advise. Take it to a reputable mechanic with experience and have him recheck everything.What do you have to lose after all the time you spent,and minimize your risk of ruining a good set of gears. He might find the problem and you will be more knowledgable for your next set.
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/08/09 02:54 PM

Quote:

Not telling you what to do,just some more advise. Take it to a reputable mechanic with experience and have him recheck everything.What do you have to lose after all the time you spent,and minimize your risk of ruining a good set of gears. He might find the problem and you will be more knowledgable for your next set.




I wouldn't run it like that. that thing will knife edge the gears before long. I would send them back to strange if I were confident it wasn't something else before running them. send them the pics and see what they tell you.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 01:11 AM

Axle centerline is .046 above (away from the pinion) the mating surface of the caps.

3.125 - .046 = 3.079

I need to get the top of the pinion 3.079" below the cap face? I measure to the shiny machined face, right?
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 04:37 AM

Just measured it... Currently I'm coming up with 3.107" from the bearing cap mating surface to the machined face of the pinion.

3.107 - 3.079 = .028 more shim needed.

If I add .028 more shim, I don't think there is any way I'll make it fit back together. That will put me at .071 beind the pinion. My first set of pics in this post (Attempt #17) was with it at .060, and everyone said pull out, less shim.

Something's not adding up.
Posted By: 446acuda

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:07 AM

Quote:

If you don't know the correct pinion depth it can be calculted by measuring the thickness of the pinion head and subtracting it from the mounting distance for a Dana 60(3.125").The difference will be the depth that the pinion should be installed.If your pinion is marked +- a number,add or subtract it in thousands to your pinion depth.


Actually pinion depth for a Dana 60 is 5.000" minus pinion head thickness.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:29 AM

0.046 surface below centerline
3.107 surface to pinion face
1.844 pinion thickness
4.997

This is well within the stacked tolerances of my measuring methods.

Ths says I am very close. Whay would the pattern not come with it? The coast pattern has consistently stayed slanted throughout the range of adjustments I've made.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:35 AM

Dan, do you have the instruction sheet from Strange for those type and material gears? If not I do, I will look at that sheet if you want me to or I can FAX or mail you a copy if you want I think Strange instructions shows a lot different acceptable patterns than the Mopar service manuls and the instructions from Richmond do
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:39 AM

The gears did not have ANY paperwork with them... If you can fax them I would really appreciate it. Unfortunately, I only have a fax at my office which will open at 7am tomorrow. I'll PM you my number.

Thanks!
Posted By: 446acuda

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:41 AM

what measuring tool did you use to measure the cap mating surface to the bottom of the bearing bore?
Posted By: Sub95

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:45 AM



http://www.usgear.com/ring__pinion_installation.htm
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 06:54 AM

I used 3 methods with results within .001 of each other.

1) straightedge across the face with digital calipers measuring between the bottom of the bore and the edge

2) same straightedge across the bore, but used the depth probe on the bottom and subtracted the thickness of the edge

3) Inserted the race, and used the straightedge across the cover mounting surface and used feelers to measure the gap between the race and surface, then measured down from the edge to the mating surface, subtracted the gap between the race and the edge, and that told me how much of the cup was ABOVE the mating surface. subtract 1/2 of the race OD, and that gave me the C/L distance above the surface.

These are $300 Fowler certified/calibrated digital calipers, not some cheapie set.

My inaccuracy comes from measuring down to the pinion face. My straightedge won't quite span the case directly over the pinion. I can just barely catch the edge of the machined face, so I may be .001 or .002 off.
Posted By: 446acuda

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 07:08 AM

so the depth probe had a ball end? I was wondering if you may have used a flat end depth micrometer that wouldn't actually touch the bottom, giving you a low measurement, but that doesn't look like that's the case...especially since you hit it within .001" using different methods.
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 12:01 PM

Check to make sure the cap is cut on the c/l.
DO NOT assume that it is cut perfectly when measuring to the top of the pinion.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 12:36 PM

Quote:

Don't we love setting up Dana spicer rear ends, especially the Dana 60 Do you have a set of set up bearings? If not get some I remember paying Bob Lambeck $75.00 to set the gears up in my Dana for the four speed Hemi Cuda, best money ever spent I charge $150.00 now and it still takes 8 hrs+ to do one usually




It took me two-half days. I had to walk away from it on the first day I was so frustrated.

The best pattern that I achieved was made getting the pinion depth right-on to what the manufacturer recommended. The problem is the depth changed when preload was applied to the pinion, so it was a lot of trial and error.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 02:21 PM

Quote:

Check to make sure the cap is cut on the c/l.
DO NOT assume that it is cut perfectly when measuring to the top of the pinion.




What does the cap have to do with it?

I'm measuring from the mating surface, not the cap. Are you suggesting the cap may be cut too deep and bottoming before securing the bearing, therefore allowing movement?
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 02:40 PM

The bottom line is always the pattern. Even if you put it in with a tool it still gets tweaked by looking at the pattern. I don't know why your coast is looking like it does but i am not there. you have been all over with the pinion shim and this is the best you have gotten. If you are sure this is the best you can get and all the preloads are right run it.
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 03:20 PM

Quote:

The bottom line is always the pattern. Even if you put it in with a tool it still gets tweaked by looking at the pattern. I don't know why your coast is looking like it does but i am not there. you have been all over with the pinion shim and this is the best you have gotten. If you are sure this is the best you can get and all the preloads are right run it.




Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Ring & Pinion pattern help needed PLEASE! - 11/09/09 04:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Check to make sure the cap is cut on the c/l.
DO NOT assume that it is cut perfectly when measuring to the top of the pinion.




What does the cap have to do with it?

I'm measuring from the mating surface, not the cap. Are you suggesting the cap may be cut too deep and bottoming before securing the bearing, therefore allowing movement?



No
Im saying that the caps and housing are not cut directly on the bearing center line.


You can get the depth measurement closer by figuring out how much the housing has been cut offset but at the end of the day its the pattern.


That's why the pattern is important and the tool is a guide.
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