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New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses???
Posted By: cudabin
New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/26/09 06:24 PM
Well the new motor is finally going on the Dyno to break in and tune the Terminator Alky injection system for max (safe) power!!!
Should run it tonight or tommorow night.
Anyone care to guess???
Bottom end:
Indy max low deck Aluminum block. 540ci w/ 4.5 bore and 4.25" stroke. K-1 Crank, R&R 6.635" billet Alum rods w/ 2.20 rod journals.
Custom Ross domed 15:1 compression pistons w/ 1.205" comp height. Charlies Alum oil pan w/ milodon dual line swinging pick up and Melling HV pump.
Top end:
2100cfm Ron's Terminator Alcohol Injection on a low deck Indy manifold, 440-1 Alum heads 345cc intake volume CNC ported by MCH, 382 cfm @ .800"
Custom comp roller 286/288 dur @ .050", .782"/.765" lift, 111 lsa installed at 107 icl.
Headers: TTi 2" - 2 1/8" in chassis step headers, w/ evac hoses.
I am hoping for 850 HP
Any guesses or advice for the dyno session???
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: 540CUDA
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/26/09 06:43 PM
You have more cam ,compression and flow than mine does,mine has two 1050's on gas and it just made 870hp on Dwayne Porters dyno. Mine was peaking at 7300-7500rpm. I use a vacuum pump instead of evac tubes. I bet it'll be close to mine 850-880hp once dialed in
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/26/09 06:47 PM
I have a very similar combo, differnaces being tall deck, megablock at 528 inchs, made 847 hp . Good luck, hope you make more!
On advice, If I had it to do over I would have tested with more heat in the motor, as I wound up running it much warmer. Tested at 140 degrees, run it at 190.
Posted By: cudabin
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/27/09 12:26 AM
Thanks guys,
No vacum pump could set me back a few HP.
Greg, I will start the pull around 160 temp by warming up on gas with my primer plus, then switch to alky for the pull. Based on your advice I will try starting at higher temp as well, although it will be tough to keep the motor warm once at the track...
Any other ideas for testing on the dyno??
thanks,
Arnie
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/27/09 01:27 AM
I use a fair amount of fuel, but haven't had too much trouble getting it up to 185 before the burnout box. with your primer plus, I bet it will be very easy. Not to mention cheap. A guy can buy a lot of 92 octane for the price of a couple of gallons of alky.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/27/09 01:30 AM
I say 925-950hp
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses??? - 10/27/09 01:33 AM
Thats almost identical setup I run. My combo featured a 4.5 stroke and 4.44 bore..Same heads, same compression, same induction..Same cam, bla bla bla.
I never dyno'd my engine, but I can speak of track times.
That engine went mid to upper 7's in the 1/4 mile, 144 mph in the 8th mile in the heat with a 1.06-1.07 in the short times in a 2100 lbs car.
IMO the extra stroke I have on you isnt worth much if any at all....Matter of fact I think you have a better combo....maybe...track times is what counts...we dont race dyno's LOL..
Nice combo
Posted By: Diablo
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 02:07 AM
on my 636 i've got dual 2100 terminators and the primer plus system. it warms up to 170-180 very quickly but once i switch over to the alchy it drops to 120 pretty quick! And using the primer plus with gas makes plug reading a lot harder.
Only advise is know a lot about alchy before going to the dyno. Whe i was there i wish i had someone that REALLY knew what they were doing.
875-900hp
Posted By: cudabin
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 03:19 AM
Thanks for the input guys,
I went only 4.25" stroke in order to run a few more rpm's before the 440-1 heads peaked out... that allows more rear gear and torque multiplication.
Also since it only has 10.5W -31 slicks and 32" ladder bars, i did not want to much low end torque. Alky makes good torque anyways right?
Somewhere between 850 and 875 HP would be great but like said , we don't race dynos!
I really just wanted to get the baseline tune from the dyno very close and then eliminate guesses next spring.
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 03:41 AM
With a 4.25 stroke, torque will probably peak at 5,000 maybe even less. Mine came in at 5100 or lower. Peak hp at 6900 and 7000.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 03:55 AM
Here was my tune for 0 1/2 Rons pump...
38 nozzles, and a 86-90 bypass pill.
Posted By: cudabin
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 04:08 AM
Thanks Greg,
It should like a shift point of around 7,200 rpm then. Right?
Bob, that is exactly where i am starting the tune! o - 1/2 black pump, 38 nzs, and 87 pill to start...
Thanks for the input.
Arnie
Posted By: Edge
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 04:37 AM
845 hp 6750 rpm torque peak around 5300 RPM, hope the session goes well for you
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: New 540 Indy bullet going on the Dyno, any guesses? - 10/27/09 11:53 AM
Quote:
Thanks Greg,
It should like a shift point of around 7,200 rpm then. Right?
Bob, that is exactly where i am starting the tune! o - 1/2 black pump, 38 nzs, and 87 pill to start...
Thanks for the input.
Arnie
Great place to start!
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/26/10 10:46 PM
Well we made a couple of pulls on the 540 and it made 859HP at 6,800rpm and 726ft-ib at 5,500rpm.
Problem was there was a lot of blowby, enough to pop the breather out of the valve cover and paint the wall with fresh oil...
Switched over to a gas carb and it made 820HP, but with no blowby.
There was no evac lines on the dyno headers, so it was just straight breathers, so they have now installed some evac check valves in the adapters from the headers to the dyno room exhaust and while running a different motor they measured 5 - 6 inches vacuum.
We will try it again to see if that helps reduce the blowby and maybe even pick up a few more HP
Also the tune-up was using 37 nozzles and a 96 (large) bypass pill, so we are going to try a set of 36 nozzles and a smaller bypass which should provide more pressure and better atomization of the fuel which can also reduce blowby.
I know a vacuum pump would help even more, but i would like to try and run it with just my header evac tubes this season, and if it hooks and books, i can always add a pump for 2011...
Any ideas if the evac and smaller nozzles will help???
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: Bigcube
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 01:04 AM
Not sure what it would have blow-by with with alky and not the gas? But the power difference is substantial. Makes me wonder why I bother with gas. Nice numbers!
Posted By: supercomp
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 01:25 AM
Those Indy's are making more power then our B1 orig. Great motor.
Posted By: blownzoom440
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 01:27 AM
on gas my engine did not like a over rich mix and would blow the breathers off so i would say lean it a bit on alky.too much timing did this also.
Posted By: WILD BILL
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 01:43 AM
FWIW, my motor made more power with hot oil and cool water temps.
Both around 145 or so. Oil temps under 130 really showed a drop in power.
Posted By: arc
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 02:02 AM
i just came off the dyno last week with the owner of island dragways motor it made 920 on gas at 7300 but it was still going we run it with a terminator we use a 1 pump 40 nozzles 86 bypass 86 in the high speed the heads are 365 indys we use a star vacuum pump
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 02:33 AM
No doubt a vacuum pump would pick it up a notch, but I will see what the evac and smaller nozzles do first, then we may try a pump...
Wild Bill, I am amazed how much higher in rpm you found peak HP. Mine peaked at 6,800 and yours went to 7,400? Also i have more cam and bigger 345cc heads. I guess the extra cubes pull the power peak down a lot in my case?
I can hardly wait for the next pull
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: HardcoreB
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 10:43 AM
Nice results.
What are your valvetrain components? Lifters (offset?), pushrods, rockers (shaft or tie-bar), springs with loads? Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 12:24 PM
Good start.
I don't know what to think about the blow-by situation.
Can you post a pic/scan of the dyno sheet? It would be interesting to see the water/oil temps during the pull, and the A/F ratio or EGT. I think tuning the injection on the dyno would be very helpful, although a small change at the track might optimize it.
Did your TTI step headers fit on (around) the dyno? If not, what were the primary size and length of the dyno headers?
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 05:30 PM
Hey hardcore B,
The lifters are Brian's from IMM special roller lifters with offsets on the intake, and oiling to the bearings.
Lifter bores were bronze bushed with oiling holes to push rod oil.
Comp 3/8" .080 wall push rods.
Jesel pro rockers and K-motion K1000H springs.
I need to check the installed height and pressures and will post later.
Jim, they bypassed their normal gas fuel system to measure bsfc, and used a FAST sensor. The A/F was 5.5 - 5.8 throughout the pull (Alcohol scale)
Water temp started at 156 at 5,000 rpm and was up to 161 at 7,100 rpm.
Oil temp was not shown on the sheet i got.
I will ask them to fill all of that onto the sheet for the next pull.
since they were using 37 nozzles with a 96 pill, i am very interested to see what the header evac and better fuel atomization with the 36 nozzles will do!
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 05:47 PM
Hey Arnie, Great #'s! All I can say about vac pumps is, other guys with similar builds are all using them.
There will be a nice match-up concerning cudas out there,,,
Make sure you trust "the guy" doing the tuning...He knows his stuff! And when he's done, hopefully he'll have time to freshen up some Charger junk...
Which brings me to another question... Do you still have a regular transport running from here to there?
I need to get those heads down there, which I should have done off the bat..
[edit]Oops.. didn't realize you're not in Regina..
Posted By: Bigcube
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 05:53 PM
Quote:
No doubt a vacuum pump would pick it up a notch, but I will see what the evac and smaller nozzles do first, then we may try a pump...
Wild Bill, I am amazed how much higher in rpm you found peak HP. Mine peaked at 6,800 and yours went to 7,400? Also i have more cam and bigger 345cc heads. I guess the extra cubes pull the power peak down a lot in my case?
I can hardly wait for the next pull
Cheers,
Arnie
Not sure why yours peaked lower then mine. I run a 4.5" stroke, little less head flow but about the same CC. Mine seemed to have 2 peak numbers. One at 6800 (851.6) and the other at 7200(852.6). Cam in mine is 753I/.730E, 281I/288E, 112 lobe sep.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 05:56 PM
"Jesel pro rockers and K-motion K1000H springs."
I broke a lot of stuff running those K1000H springs. Jesel rocker bearings (knocked the needle cages out)broken springs, roller lifters. Went to comp 947 springs and promtly picked up .11 in the 1/8th, absolutely no other changes.
I was never quite sure if it was the springs or the cam I had till I talked to the folks at Manton pushrods. Terry (owner) put me in touch with his dad, who is a spring engineer. He had nothing good to say about those springs.
He stated the cycle rate on the Comp 947s was such that the bad spots are 4,000 and 8,000 rpm. I never run long at either spot, so they work for me.
There are other springs out there with much better dynamics, which might even fit your retainers. I bet you two boxes of K1000h springs you will pick up at least 20 hp!
If I win, you can keep em. Buy me a Coke when we meet!
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 08:34 PM
I have a 4.50 bore 4.15 stroke with twin Terminators,572-13 heads. With a Cam Motion 283/292-799/752. With 38 nozzels and a #89 pill in the return it heated up like it was on gas. Put 39 nozzels and a #80 pill in the return run much better. In a few weeks may start with what I had last year and try some 40 nozzels.
Don't be afraid to riched it up some.
What timing are you running on yours? I run 35 on mine,plan on moving the timing some to see if it will pick up(on the track). Not sure if I should retard or advance first. Now would be a good time to try some timing changes with it on the Dyno.
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 09:12 PM
Hey Greg, I will ask the engine builder about those K1000H springs. I had some comp springs in the 470 and was breaking them due to some wierd harmonics...
MRMopar570, As for nozzle size, we are going to try it with the 37's still in it and using the header evac which should pull 5 - 6" vacuum. If blowby is reduced, we may be able to reduce the pill size and keep the 37's ??
But so far it seems like it does not want more fuel. Timing is at 34 degrees. We can play with that once the blowby is reduced.
Arnie
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/27/10 10:56 PM
cudabin, on another post a week or two ago someone raised thier timing up to 40 degrees and pick up power. Back in the 80's we used to run 38-42 degrees. The only reason I changed back was that I was told to run 35 degrees. I guess the 38-42 is old school,but if it works. The good thing for you is the dyno will tell you if it works.
Greg, I wish I had seen this post about 3 weeks ago. I have just brought another set of K1000H valve springs to replace my old set of K1000H springs.
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/28/10 01:03 PM
cudabin, While your engine is on the dyno it might would be helpful if you could get about 5 gals. of VP M5 to try. I have been told you can use the same nozzels and go down 4 sizes on the pill in the return(richer)and pick up about .15 in the 1/8 mile by a man who is really sharp on running Terminators on alcohol.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/28/10 02:46 PM
"Greg, I wish I had seen this post about 3 weeks ago. I have just brought another set of K1000H valve springs to replace my old set of K1000H springs. "
Feeling bad about having two boxes of those, I asked if there was a use for them in another setup. I was told no. The design has flaws. Sorry for the downer, but after my experience, I understand how powerful advertising has been on me. See something enough, and a guy will believe it is OK.
I wound up chasing my tail through two sets of springs, a bunch of very expensive jesel rockers to replace broken parts, and two sets of rollerlifters. I was fanatical about checking lash. All this in less than 100 passes.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: UPDATED 540 Indy bullet now on the Dyno, UPDATED ! - 03/28/10 03:05 PM
Quote:
Jim, they bypassed their normal gas fuel system to measure bsfc, and used a FAST sensor. The A/F was 5.5 - 5.8 throughout the pull (Alcohol scale)
With the stoichiometric ratio for Methanol at 6.4, that is a ratio (Lambda) of .859-.906
I think methanol might like richer than that. But I am no expert on that. The few months I ran methanol, I was in the range of Lambda .83-.84, ie only slightly richer than your numbers.
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/21/10 10:40 PM
We changed cams adding some exhaust duration up to 294 from 288.
Also added a vacuum pump with a small crank pulley which built 5 inches vac,
With the smaller 36 nozzles and an 86 pill at 36 degrees timing it made 895HP at 6,900 rpm.
The vacuum pump and cam change added 35HP
I can't wait to get an ET slip to back up these numbers
In reality though we don't get to race at sea level, so the HP will be down a bit at 4,000 feet DA. Wonder how much that will hurt
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: B1HEAD_USER
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/21/10 11:04 PM
Did the pump stop the blowby? Did you make a pull without the pump to see what the cam and pump added individually?
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/22/10 01:32 AM
Great results!
My guess on ET; at #3000, 4000 DA, 8.90 at 151 mph. Add or subtract .08 per 100 lbs difference.
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/22/10 05:16 AM
The cam did not reduce blowby much, but did contribute to the HP hanging on longer after the peak, and the peak moved up from 6,800 to 6,900 rpm. That will help a lot!
Without the Vac pump, we reduced blowby somewhat with the smaller nozzles, but HP went down as well from 859 down to 810Hp.
For what ever reason, this motor seems to need the Vac pump to seal the rings. I guess Alum block is part of the problem?
Hey Greg,
Thanks for the prediction. The car should weigh 2,700 - 2,750#'s so an 8.90 will be the goal!!!
I appreciated all your advice and help, and tried to follow your direction
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/22/10 03:15 PM
Watch the plug gap on that engine...You cant run a .045-.050 gap on Alky.
I had changed plugs one week and the next outing I had lost .05 and several MPH in near identical conditions.
I had changed only a few things, and spark plugs was one of them.. After beating my head silly, I pulled the plugs and gapped them to .030-.035..The car picked up the next pass and bested my best pass.
If its tuned correctly the engine should gain about 8-10 deg from launch to the stripe. If it doesnt gain any temp, its too fat, back it off one pill size, or 4 numbers. retest.
You gotta look fast on the other end, a few moments afer you let off the fuel the engine will cool down pretty fast.
I never dyno'd the wedge, but looking at my notes the last few races it had 36 nozzle and a 90 bypass pill.
Use the smaller nozzle and tune with the pills first, then fine tune with the nozzles.
Sounds like your close.
Hope this helps
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/22/10 03:23 PM
Also the tune on the barrel valve arm makes a huge diff.
I tried this and that...I ended up setting my barrel valve with a leak down tester and feeler gauge.
I cant recall what numbers I finally arrived at but about 24% leak down at idle and about .018-.020 or so throttle blade clearance..
for a base lengthen the arm until you have a hesitation when you snap the throttle open. now shorten/fatten the rod until the hesitation goes away. Give it two more flats on the rod.
Remember also if you adjust the idle screw it changes everything.
Posted By: BobR
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/22/10 03:59 PM
Quote:
The cam did not reduce blowby much, but did contribute to the HP hanging on longer after the peak, and the peak moved up from 6,800 to 6,900 rpm. That will help a lot!
Without the Vac pump, we reduced blowby somewhat with the smaller nozzles, but HP went down as well from 859 down to 810Hp.
For what ever reason, this motor seems to need the Vac pump to seal the rings. I guess Alum block is part of the problem?
Hey Greg,
Thanks for the prediction. The car should weigh 2,700 - 2,750#'s so an 8.90 will be the goal!!!
I appreciated all your advice and help, and tried to follow your direction
Cheers,
Arnie
You will never get the rings to seal on an aluminum block as well as on an iron one-especially if the block is not filled.
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/22/10 07:04 PM
Thanks for the tune up info Bob C!
I have the plugs at .035"
It was at 161 degrees at the start of the pull at 4,900 rpm and climbed to 166 degrees (+5) at the end of the pull at 7,200. This gave a 12.5 A/F ratio on the gas scale.
The actual dyno elevation is only 918 feet and DA around 1200 - 1400 feet. I race around 3,000 - 4,000 feet DA so we wanted to not be fat on the dyno as it will be richer when I race.
I will tune for max mph and then check the temp gain in the quarter at my elevation and go from there, but at least it will be in the ball park.
We could have cranked up the vacuum and made a pull with the engine colder to try and break 900HP, but as everyone says "you don't race dynos"
Bob R, They say Alum blocks seal better after the first rebuild, but i am just going to go to a vacuum pump and not worry about it.
I did not use low tension oil rings, so when i rebuild i will try them for a few more HP
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: cudabin
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/26/10 03:31 AM
Anyone know how much HP the low tension oil rings along with 10 - 12 inches from the Vacuum pump would add to the motor?
Also any recommendations on how much vacuum to set it for? I have heard you don't want to exceed 15 inches...
Cheers,
Arnie
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: UPDATE #2 540 Indy bullet back on the Dyno ! - 04/26/10 03:44 AM
On my motor, i saw 12 ft lbs torque difference for low tension rings Vs standard after assembly, so figure maybe 15 hp? The vacuum pump is supposed to be worth about 30 hp. So if you went from 859 to 890 hp, that would be about right, just for the pump.
As for vacuum, I will shoot for a safe 10 inchs, maybe 12 tops. Previously I have had 7 inchs at best. Already have signs of lack of pin oiling, will have to check with Manley and see what they say about pin bushings, oiling and clearances.