700 hp default combo?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 08:38 PM

I remember Dwayne's combo but the roller cam pushes the budget up almost a grand. The SR's might be a good trade for the EZ heads depending on your header situation.

My thinking is that since the 4.250/2.200 crank, 6.800 rod and the Diamond piston are all shelf stock items, this is a pretty easy combo to build. I don't think it costs anymore to build one of these 505 shortblocks than it would to build a 451 with a new crank.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 08:44 PM

Nobody that I'm aware of has put the Eddy Victor heads on the dyno yet. If the Eddy engineers did a good job and the marketing guys price it correctly then it should be a good fit for this type of motor.

Posted By: charger

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:11 PM

my 505 made 692HP at 6300 RPM on pump gas, 10.5:1 and a ported dual plane Indy Intake w/ a 4150. Heads were mildly ported 440-1's and I'm using a custom roller cam that's fairly tame. Peak TQ came in at 5300 RPM. This motor is for the street.

With a single plane and a dominator I think it should make QUITE a bit more....I think the AndyF motor is a less expensive way to reach the same result...

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:13 PM

I have found a few new victors on fleabay for $1,399.00 a set with springs....?????

Rickster

Posted By: Jacob Pitt

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:27 PM

ummm...not to pick a fight...but running 9.90's at 133 at 3400 pounds is far from 700 ponies...our smallblock runs those numbers or a hair quicker at pretty much the same weight...no where near 700 ponies

Sorry I have never dynoed the motor and the last time I weighed it it was 3490 but that number came from an e.t. to horsepower calculator sorry if you don't believe the power but this is a footbrake car with 4.30's. But it is pretty close. This wasn't a best e.t. either it was just my first time to the 1/4 mile with this motor.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:27 PM

Quote:

I have found a few new victors on fleabay for $1,399.00 a set with springs....?????

The don't come w/ springs from Edelbrock. And whether you get the ones that come w/ valves or not, they still need to have the guides clearanced and an actual valve job done, not the 45-deg. "slash cut" that Edelbrock puts on the inserts simply to give the valves something to butt up against during shipping.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:30 PM

Quote:

... if you combine pump gas + real world driving + full exhaust it starts to get tough. The cam choice becomes very critical.

No doubt...

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:31 PM

Quote:

ummm...not to pick a fight...but running 9.90's at 133 at 3400 pounds is far from 700 ponies...our smallblock runs those numbers or a hair quicker at pretty much the same weight...no where near 700 ponies

Sorry I have never dynoed the motor and the last time I weighed it it was 3490 but that number came from an e.t. to horsepower calculator sorry if you don't believe the power but this is a footbrake car with 4.30's. But it is pretty close.

i wasnt trying to pick on ya

...3490 is heavier than 3400...lol...footbraking it wont make it any slower though...the duster will run identical laps off foot or brake...assuming hook.....i have just been using ryans moroso calculator for power"guesses"134 mph at 3350 pounds is 618 ponies...we ran 134.71 last weekend so i am guessing 630ish.....

edit..moparts calculator

3350..134.71...639
3490..133.50...648....ya got me

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:43 PM

Quote:

edit..moparts calculator

3350..134.71...639
3490..133.50...648....ya got me

I'm also curious what the altitude #s are for the tracks where ChallyL427 races. From what I recall, a lot of those Texas tracks aren't at sea-level like HRP is, and some of them are pretty darn "up there" compared to the coastal region.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:49 PM

Charger - that sounds like a pretty good combo. The 440-1 heads do add some cost though as does the roller. I haven't done enough different motors with Indy heads to really have a good feel for the difference between EZ, SR and -1 heads. My take on it is that if the EZ heads will get you the number you're shooting for then that is the way to go. But of course, the EZ's are a fairly new option so there are lots of guys running the SR and -1 combo's just because they bought those parts before the EZ heads were available.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 09:59 PM

Quote:

The don't come w/ springs from Edelbrock. And whether you get the ones that come w/ valves or not, they still need to have the guides clearanced and an actual valve job done, not the 45-deg. "slash cut" that Edelbr

Edelbrock #77929 Victor Big Block Chrysler Bare heads with Valves. This Listings is for Bare Heads with Valves. These heads are supplied with valves, HAVE finished Guides, and Valve JOB done from EDELBROCK. These heads require offset rocker arms for the intake ports; use Mopar Performance .485" offset intake rockers. The exhaust side will accept standard-spec rockers.

Intake and Exhaust Valves Included. The best standard port location head available for competition big-block Chryslers
Intake ports are raised .650", exhaust ports are raised .250" for improved flow
Will fit existing Victor manifolds for both high and low deck engines
Standard 15-degree valve angles
280cc intake ports and 100cc exhaust ports
Raised valve cover rails and dual quench 75cc combustion chambers
Sold without springs or retainers- use recommended springs to match your cam
Can be machined to match Max Wedge ports.

Sorry it was Valves, not Valve Springs...

My take was this 700hp build was supposed to be an inexpensive off the shelf type of build, without extensive machining, porting, etc...???

Rickster

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/10/06 10:38 PM

I haven't seen any Victor heads on the dyno yet but I really doubt that they are going to go 700 hp OOTB with an OOTB Victor manifold on a 505 shortblock.

By the time you port them to max wedge size and buy the special offset rocker arms you'll most likely have as much in them as a set of ported EZ heads.

As soon as someone has dyno info and prices then we'll know if the Victor's are a good deal or not.

Posted By: charger

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 12:07 AM

Quote:

difference between EZ, SR and -1 heads. My take on it is that if the EZ heads will get you the number you're shooting for then that is the way to go.

I think I could have netted the same result using any of these heads...I used the 440-1's simply because I already had them, and I also wanted to leave some HP on the table for a later upgrade, plus I also thought the bigger port volume might be better for that 175 Shot of laughing gas I plan on tossing at it

Posted By: maxeffort

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 01:44 AM

I do quite a few edelbrocks and every set needs the guides clearanced, good valve job, resurfacing and new springs to be acceptable.

Still, they are a good value and a decent casting. better to buy them bare and set them up correctly.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 01:59 AM

Whats a bare set worth.??? I was just making a contribution to the thread, I'll be using B1's on my 511 build...!!!!

Rickster

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 05:23 AM

Great thread Andy..
While I agree that the EZ's are more than capable of reaching the #, and definitely more economical...The "Default Combo" would probably include Indy 440-1's simply due to the huge numbers of these heads already in racers hands! I'd venture to guess that a larger group of racers looking to move into the 700HP range, will be putting strokers under thier existing heads, rather than putting larger heads on existing shortblocks.

In my case, I absolutely love my 440 with Edelbrock Performers, M-1, and 304/640 ultradyne solid. With a best of 9.96-133 on the motor in a 2880 lb Challenger, and around 129-130 in SST, it has served me well for 5 seasons.
So I want to step up without robbing anything from that engine, allowing it to serve as a back-up or for another project.

Here's what I have so far to that end:
'70 RB Block, 4.350 bore, tall fill, BRC aluminum Caps & ARP Studs.
OOTB 440-1 heads: they will be prepped, and cleaned up by my machinist.
1150 Dominator, Milodon Dragster pan w/ single line system, 2 1/8 headers

My plan was to use the 4.25/7.1(2.2 journal)/Ross flattop kit from 440 Source.
I don't have an Intake yet, I was considering a 440-2 since I already have an adapter which has 2 stages of N20 plumbed in, hood clearance may be an issue however, so the 440-3 with a fogger may be the answer?? The 3X is out of the question...it'll never fit.
After watching my brother struggle to keep Indy rockers alive on his 504..(he finally made a whole season this year..by dumping his roller cam, and going with, you guessed it

A .620 MP Solid!!) I'm definitely getting T&D's..So do I get 1.6, 1.65, 1.7??
Next question is Cam...I have a 280/282 @.50 .660 lift roller (w 1.5) 108 LSA available on the shelf...I'd really love to get it done with a solid though.

The goal is this: I'd like to go 8.99-148 once on motor, In my 2880 lb Challenger with a 1.76 Glide, and 9 inch converter, 4.30 gear. Consistant 9.10-9.30's would be fine, 142 mph in 10.90, 144 mph in 9.90 trim.
Is that doable with a default 700 hp combo?? do I need more? Can I hit it with any N20 at all without grenading it??

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 06:07 AM

Andy, i don't know about 700 hp, but i have what i believe would be a very reliable 800 hp combo in my head, based on parts i have used.
499 low deck shortblock , BME aluminum rods with a small dome piston for at least 13/1 compression.
Indy 440-1 heads, cnc ported, dominater single four
Isky RR735 roller with jesel rockers, comp 947 springs.
Put this in a 3000 lb package and go 9.10s all day long at 7200 rpm, faster if you don't live in minnesota!.

Posted By: maxeffort

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 11:55 AM

Quote:

Whats a bare set worth.??? I was just making a contribution to the thread, I'll be using B1's on my 511 build...!!!!

Rickster

a bare set of regular edelbrocks is around $1400.

Please note that I never have used the Big Block mopar ones. I do a few of the pontiac edelbrock heads though.

Posted By: Jacob Pitt

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 02:33 PM

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

This is the calculator I use it has been very close on e.t. predictions and such.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 04:18 PM

Hi Billy, good point on the 440-1 head. No doubt that if people have them then it would be better to use it than switch to something smaller. I guess my point with the thread was to lay out a moderate cost solution for the guy who was starting with nothing more than a bare block.

The 440-1 heads add some cost with the special rocker arms but they also add more potential for futher upgrades down the road.

700 hp should put 2880 lbs thru the lights at about 145 mph so that seems about right. I really don't know if OOTB 440-1 heads are as good as or better than the fully ported EZ heads. I've never done a back to back with those two.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 08:08 PM

Quote:

I guess my point with the thread was to lay out a moderate cost solution for the guy who was starting with nothing more than a bare block.

What does one consider "moderate cost" for this build in total dollars spent....????

Rickster

Posted By: supercomp

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 08:24 PM

Quote:

I haven't seen any Victor heads on the dyno yet but I really doubt that they are going to go 700 hp OOTB with an OOTB Victor manifold on a 505 shortblock.

By the time you port them to max wedge size and buy the special offset rocker arms you'll most likely have as much in them as a set of ported EZ heads.

As soon as someone has dyno info and prices then we'll know if the Victor's are a good deal or not.

Our 451 made 659hp and 633 tq with sr heads with nothing but a little cleanup work under the valves using a m1 untouched intake. I'd think a 505 should go 700 easy.

Posted By: B_Body_Bob

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 08:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I guess my point with the thread was to lay out a moderate cost solution for the guy who was starting with nothing more than a bare block.

What does one consider "moderate cost" for this build in total dollars spent....????

Rickster

I saw a post the other day where Andy said he could sell a 700 hp engine for a certain $ figure - if it's the same one.

Posted By: Defbob

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/11/06 09:26 PM

Quote:

ummm...not to pick a fight...but running 9.90's at 133 at 3400 pounds is far from 700 ponies...our smallblock runs those numbers or a hair quicker at pretty much the same weight...no where near 700 ponies

His rwhp should be about 640hp. My guess is about 765hp flywheel.

Posted By: FastOrange

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 12:16 AM

Great topic. Very interesting to me since I'm a member the default 700+HP combo group wannabe's. My next move will be to move from a 440 to a stroked RB. Also, I currently have everything needed except the short block, so the combo makes a lot of $$$ and sense for me. I am wondering if a flattop piston is do able with a 65cc combustion chamber and pump gas?

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 12:50 AM

Quote:

RB block 4.350 bore
4.250 crank with 2.200 pins
6.800 Chevy rods
12.5 CR. (Diamond flat top shelf piston at zero deck)
Indy EZ heads with CNC porting by Modern Cylinder Head
Indy 440-3 intake or 440-2 with 4500 adapter
1050 Dominator carb
Flat tappet cam about the size of a MP .620
2 inch headers

Torque peak should be around 5200 rpm with power peak around 6200 rpm.

i'd use a dome piston for around 14:1cr, and std EZ-1's with some minor clean up/valve job corrected, and more than likely a roller cam.
the cost of the roller set-up or the CNC porting is about a wash....and i'd rather just invest in the roller cam right off the bat, then have the heads ported later on down the road.

with a roller and 14:1cr, it would make over 700hp with ease.

Posted By: Edge

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 01:02 AM

My build is very similar to the one proposed by AndyF, target for the build is 700 hp @6500. Still waiting to get on the dyno, should know for sure in November. Similar build with less compression in a friends ride was 675 hp.

440Rb bored 4.350
Ross flat top @ zero deck 12.3:1 CR
4.15 crank
oiling mods
milodin external line setup
roller 280 @0.050 700 lift 108 LSA
Indy SR ported to max wedge
440-2 intake
1050 dominator
Super Comps with collectors

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 04:03 AM

It would be interesting to see how that combo of roller cam and std EZ heads would work. The only motor I built with the std EZ head didn't really work out so well. Once I had the EZ heads opened up to max wedge size they took off. But I'm sure if a person played with those heads a bit in std form they could be made to work. There are a lot of fast cars with heads that are worse than a std EZ!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 12:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Whats a bare set worth.??? I was just making a contribution to the thread, I'll be using B1's on my 511 build...!!!!

Rickster

a bare set of regular edelbrocks is around $1400.

a bare set of the 84 cc big block heads is under $1200.00

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 10/12/06 01:12 PM

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 01:50 PM

Quote:

... I'm a member the default 700+HP combo group wannabe's. My next move will be to move from a 440 to a stroked RB.

Same here.

Quote:

... I am wondering if a flattop piston is do able with a 65cc combustion chamber and pump gas?

No, but that's where a dished piston fits the bill quite nicely.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 01:53 PM

Eric, the combo I listed up at the top of the thread should get it done for you with those heads. RB block, 4.250 crank, 6.80 Chevy rods, Diamond flat tops, flat tappet cam.

Add another grand for a roller setup and you'll easily be at 750 hp. Since it is a race only car you could add some small domes to the pistons to push the CR up to 13 or 14:1. With that big stroke you only need a tiny dome to really crank up the compression.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 01:57 PM

Here is a shot of the piston dome that Diamond made for me. This is a 6cc dome and it makes 13.5 CR with the 75cc EZ heads.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 02:01 PM

Quote:

you could add some small domes to the pistons to push the CR up to 13 or 14:1. With that big stroke you only need a tiny dome to really crank up the compression.

On my 4.250" stroke, 4.375" bore engine, I calculated 13.2 CR just by milling the heads to 71cc. So, depending on your chamber cc, piston to deck, etc.; a small dome can get to 14 CR.

Posted By: EasyG

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 02:24 PM

Quote:

Ok...while we are on the subject. If I wanted to make say 675-700 for my Arrow...what would be a good combo? I have max wedge ported SR's and a Indy intake to start with. I would need a complete short block...less oiling system and balancer. Car weighs 2354# w/driver. I have a Coan 8" 5500 and 4.56's......Goal is 8.80-8.90's

Dude... If you just continue with your plan within your signature, you should be good to go!

Chuck will do you right!!!

Posted By: OriginalRT

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 02:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

a bare set of regular edelbrocks is around $1400.

a bare set of the 84 cc big block heads is under $1200.00

I'm pretty sure they are refering to the Victor heads, not the Perfs

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 02:42 PM

Quote:

I have a Coan 8" 5500 and 4.56's......Goal is 8.80-8.90's

--------------------
"Me and my Arrow"... 6.078 @ 113.56 in the 1/8 9.582 @ 140.82 in the 1/4 so far...still planning on a 500" Best Machine bullet

This is how I look at it.
You want to go 0.70 seconds quicker and at that ET it will require about 140hp more to get there. Put a 4.250" crank in it (511 CID) and stepping up from the 446 CID is worth around 1.3 hp/CID x 65 = 85hp. Up the compression ratio from 12.0? to 13.5 is worth 1.5% x 650 = 10 hp. A better roller cam should be worth another 30hp. That leaves 15 more hp to find. Some additional head porting might be in order. I would also like to see some 2-1/8" headers on it. The bigger motor will need your torque converter tightened up as the stall will go up with all that torque.

Looking at it another way, my engine/car at 3160 lbs went 9.32 in 500 ft DA air at Norwalk last weekend. Your's is 800 lbs less. So my combo would put you at 8.50s in that air. Good flowing heads are important (350 cfm or more).

Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 10:47 PM

I`m also reading and dreaming. But here is the question I ask: How do you take a stock block that is considered "marginal" at 600HP,and stuff a 4.25 crank in it and bump power up to 700+ and still sleep at night? I understand all the terms like----- good assembly practices,"good" machine work,quality parts etc....... But isn`t this the same group of people{myself included} that consider a stock block a "bomb"?
Besides filling the block,what are you planning to do ? And how long do you expect one of these to live?

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 11:06 PM

For long life, light is right! Take pains to get the rotating wieght down as much as you can to keep the stress off the block. If you are lucky enough to secure a center counterwieght crank, that is a big plus, as it places the forces more opposite of each piston/rod pair, reducing stress by a fair amount.

Posted By: nss guy

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/12/06 11:14 PM

Quote:

It would be interesting to see how that combo of roller cam and std EZ heads would work. The only motor I built with the std EZ head didn't really work out so well. Once I had the EZ heads opened up to max wedge size they took off. But I'm sure if a person played with those heads a bit in std form they could be made to work. There are a lot of fast cars with heads that are worse than a std EZ!

I plan on upgrading my combo this winter with the 295 "Little Easy" CNC heads along with a small roller cam. My shortblock is a stock stroke 440 +.055 with Ross Flattop pistons. Heads will be cut down to abbout 65cc's.

Attached picture 2986863-newnikkon005.jpg

Attached picture 2986863-newnikkon005.jpg

Posted By: FastOrange

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/13/06 12:30 AM

Quote:

I`m also reading and dreaming. But here is the question I ask: How do you take a stock block that is considered "marginal" at 600HP,and stuff a 4.25 crank in it and bump power up to 700+ and still sleep at night? I understand all the terms like----- good assembly practices,"good" machine work,quality parts etc....... But isn`t this the same group of people{myself included} that consider a stock block a "bomb"?
Besides filling the block,what are you planning to do ? And how long do you expect one of these to live?

Posted by AndyF

Quote

Torque peak should be around 5200 rpm with power peak around 6200 rpm.

Keep the RPMs under 6500 and take a sleeping pill?

Posted By: 64Post

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/13/06 04:36 AM

Quote:

I`m also reading and dreaming. But here is the question I ask: How do you take a stock block that is considered "marginal" at 600HP,and stuff a 4.25 crank in it and bump power up to 700+ and still sleep at night? I understand all the terms like----- good assembly practices,"good" machine work,quality parts etc....... But isn`t this the same group of people{myself included} that consider a stock block a "bomb"?
Besides filling the block,what are you planning to do ? And how long do you expect one of these to live?

I'm hoping a girdle helps a little.

Posted By: FastOrange

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/13/06 04:27 PM

Let me stir the pot some more

Other than external oiling, how about a 4.5" stroke in an RB block?

Is it doable. Pros/Cons????

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/13/06 05:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I`m also reading and dreaming. But here is the question I ask: How do you take a stock block that is considered "marginal" at 600HP,and stuff a 4.25 crank in it and bump power up to 700+ and still sleep at night? I understand all the terms like----- good assembly practices,"good" machine work,quality parts etc....... But isn`t this the same group of people{myself included} that consider a stock block a "bomb"?
Besides filling the block,what are you planning to do ? And how long do you expect one of these to live?

I'm hoping a girdle helps a little.

alum caps , maybe the rods ??? take as much stress out of the webbing as possible and it will live longer , but i bet in the end ....

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/14/06 03:33 PM

Quote:

i'd use a dome piston for around 14:1cr, and std EZ-1's with some minor clean up/valve job corrected, and more than likely a roller cam.

Quote:

It would be interesting to see how that combo of roller cam and std EZ heads would work. The only motor I built with the std EZ head didn't really work out so well. Once I had the EZ heads opened up to max wedge size they took off. But I'm sure if a person played with those heads a bit in std form they could be made to work. There are a lot of fast cars with heads that are worse than a std EZ!

i guess that my calling the EZ-1's the "standard" head might be confusing.
the EZ-1 is the non-ported MW sized head.
that is what i would use, not the std port EZ head.

the 4 versions are:
*EZ (std port, no porting, stock oiling, std rockers)

*EZ-1 (MW port, no porting, stock oiling, std rockers)

*EZ-295CNC (MW port, 295cc intake port, external oiling, std rockers)

*EZ-325CNC (MW port, 325cc intake runner, external oiling, uses ICH 440-1 type offset intake rockers)

well...actually....to be more precise.....i would buy the std port EZ's because they are less expensive, and then i'd open them up to MW size myself.
sort of like paying myself the $150 for the job instead of Indy

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/14/06 04:59 PM

Quote:

Let me stir the pot some more
Other than external oiling, how about a 4.5" stroke in an RB block? Is it doable. Pros/Cons????

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/14/06 06:43 PM

That makes it clearer. You were talking about the EZ-1 and I thought you ment the 906 size port version. I don't have any issue with your statement that the EZ-1 + roller cam is a better way to get to 700 hp than the CNC + flat tappet combo I posted.

I do have a question though about what cam you would pick and what the valvetrain parts would be. For instance, which springs and rocker arms would work well together on the cam you pick?

With the flat tappet cam the spring choice and rocker arm selection is a little easier (and probably less expensive). With the MP .620 class of cam a person could run Isky nodulars and a decent dual spring set up at 1.900 installed height. That is all pretty inexpensive stuff that drops right into place without machine work. Would that also be true for a bracket type roller cam?

BTW - to fill out your list of EZ heads we should point out that Jeff's CNC version is 309 cc, flows 350 cfm, uses internal oiling and standard rocker arms. So it fits in between the Little Easy and Big Easy options from Indy.

Posted By: Mills

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/14/06 06:59 PM

OOTB EZ-1 - how far into the port does the Indy CNC go?

For an average guy, I think paying the $150 is a no-brainer. You get CNC matched bowls too. I can port heads, but I feel OK going in on iron heads....a set heads that a slip doesn't mean going back to teh boneyard - another ballgame for me

And, if I remember correctly, the OOTB EZ-1 flow wasn't too far of the EZ-295 version. I think a good bang for the buck would be some EZ-1's, and having you do a basic prep on them - ie touch up the valvejob.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/14/06 07:03 PM

i generally use Isky 9385 springs set up at 2.00" with CV products Ti retainers and Comp 10deg locks.
this is 240lbs on the seat, and 600lbs at 1.300.

ive sold several sets of EZ heads with that spring/retainer combo....works well for a typical low maintenance mid-.600 lift bracket roller for motors turning 7300-ish or less(depending on cam profile).

if i were looking for more power, yet keep things pretty reliable, i'd run a Comp 951 spring at 1.950, with a 1.6 rocker and a cam in the low-700's for lift.
i'd just use HS rockers, since they fit these heads pretty well, seem to hold up okay, and are readily available.

at 14:1CR, depending on the overall car/chassis combo......i'd be looking for something around 280 @ .050.

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/14/06 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Let me stir the pot some more
Other than external oiling, how about a 4.5" stroke in an RB block? Is it doable. Pros/Cons????

Dram,
Is it really off topic? I thought we were discussing an easy, affordable 700 that anyone could duplicate? Not saying the 4.5 option won't be dismissed as overkill in a stock block...but it merits more than an emoticon I would think.

I really wouldn't consider anything less than titanuim retainers, at this level, I think the initial price is justified by the advantages.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/15/06 05:19 AM

I don't have any experience with the 4.50 crank but it looks to me like it would pretty much force a guy to run an external oiling system which adds money. I'm also not sure if there are very many stocking pistons for the 4.50 stroke.

The 4.375 with 2.200 pins should clear with only minor grinding. I would assume that it will clear a 1/2 internal pickup but I haven't put one together myself. Once again, I'm not sure how many shelf stock pistons are available for the 4.375 setup. As soon as you go custom piston the bill goes up a bit more. External oiling adds at least $500 to the tab if not more.

I'm still on the fence with the roller vs. solid flat tappet question. Since we're talking about a 6500 rpm type of motor here it doesn't seem like a person would have to put a roller in it. And you certainly don't need the roller to make the 700 hp. Roller's add about $1000 to the tab by the time you get the lifters, bigger springs, better rocker arms, bronze gear, etc.

Reliability is a toss up. Lots of flat tappet melt downs these days but there seems to be just as many roller lifters biting the dust. Not to mention, the springs in a roller motor seem to require more maintenance.

I guess if a guy is going to want to go faster down the road then buying the roller now makes sense. On the other hand, maybe just building a reliable 700 hp bullet is good enough and the guy could spend the grand on the chassis where he'll most likely need it?

Posted By: Mills

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/15/06 02:53 PM

Quote:

The 4.375 with 2.200 pins should clear with only minor grinding. I would assume that it will clear a 1/2 internal pickup but I haven't put one together myself.

I'd like to know if this crank would fit...even w/ a 3/8" pick-up.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/15/06 03:25 PM

It lookes to me like a 4.375 will fit with internal oiling as long as you use the 2.200 rods. The 4.250 clears without any grinding so you only need to go out another 0.063 to clear the 4.375.

Posted By: FastOrange

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 10/15/06 04:28 PM

Hey, we're already up to 4.375"

I was just wondering out loud about the 4.5" crank
because it's only recently become available as a "budget crank". Dram builds race engines for a living, so judging by his response maybe there is a lot more involved that drives the budget up even higher. I couldn't help but think about a 455" Pontiac engine. Long stroke 4.210" X small bore 4.150". A tons of torque low RPM motor.
If we're only talking custom pistons, external oiling, and some block grinding doesn't sound like a giant amount of $$$ to me. Maybe you spend the $$$ there and don't do a roller cam setup? Anyway, I know the thread was about 700HP/on a tight budget. Anyway, great thread Andy, you could put the 4.5" down as an "option"

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/07/06 05:16 AM

An update to this post since I just got back from the dyno with another combo.

Same basic 505 with 13.5 compression, CNC EZ heads, 440-2 intake, 1050 Dominator, Comp Cam MM305 flat tappet grind, 2 inch headers, super stock oil pan. 740 hp at 6400 rpm, 640 ft-lbs of torque at 5500 rpm.

This is a reasonable package that most guys could afford. 440Source crank, SCAT rods, Diamond pistons, Comp shelf cam, etc. I ran Schubeck lifters due to the cam changes that I do. A std set of lifters should live with this cam though if the break in is done carefully. Here is a picture for the archives.

Posted By: PUNK

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/07/06 06:15 AM

Heres a combo that my friend Robert just finished and its going to be in CarCraft pretty soon. Stock 440 block and crank with offset ground rod journals(470") and basically a 7.1" long BBC big and small end rod, 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with 270@.050. It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb. The heads are like the 2nd set and T@D made the rockers for them using these heads. Seems like 700 horsepower just got a little easier to make. There was very little tuning on the Dyno and more is to come because the engine is still on the Dyno.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/07/06 02:26 PM

Quote:

470"... 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb.

On whose dyno? Sounds

to me.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/07/06 03:06 PM

Probably Westech if it is for CarCraft. Their dyno used to be a little happy but they said they corrected it. I didn't think the Victor heads were good enough to go 700 hp out of the box on a pump gas 470. Guess we'll have to get some more people running them to see.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/07/06 04:09 PM

Quote:

I didn't think the Victor heads were good enough to go 700 hp out of the box on a pump gas 470.

Me either, which is why I asked.

Posted By: camdog440

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/07/06 04:21 PM

Quote:

Heres a combo that my friend Robert just finished and its going to be in CarCraft pretty soon. Stock 440 block and crank with offset ground rod journals(470") and basically a 7.1" long BBC big and small end rod, 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb. The heads are like the 2nd set and [Email]T@D[/Email] made the rockers for them using these heads. Seems like 700 horsepower just got a little easier to make. There was very little tuning on the Dyno and more is to come because the engine is still on the Dyno.

How soon is "soon" in the world of Car Craft type mags?

Posted By: StrokedDart

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 03:05 PM

My combo which will be fired this weekend(I hope), I think is in the ball park.
508ci
440 .040 over w/girdle
4.250 crank, 7.100 rod, ross flat tops(11.3 comp)
Scott Brown solid FT 259/266 @ 50, 625/635 lift w/1.6 rockers, 112 LSA
EZ heads MW ported (340cfm @ 600)
440-2 intake, 900cfm carb

wad ya think??

Posted By: TonyS451

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 04:17 PM

My combo which will be fired this weekend(I hope), I think is in the ball park.

Quote:

508ci
440 .040 over w/girdle
4.250 crank, 7.100 rod, ross flat tops(11.3 comp)
Scott Brown solid FT 259/266 @ 50, 625/635 lift w/1.6 rockers, 112 LSA
EZ heads MW ported (340cfm @ 600)
440-2 intake, 900cfm carb

wad ya think??

John - I think the combo sounds awesome and if nothing else, should come real close to 700hp. I think it will be a shoe-in with a bigger carb, just my

Posted By: StrokedDart

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 05:34 PM

Thanks Tony, yea I know the carb is too small, when I get the $$$ I think it will get a pro-systems Dominator. I owe you some pics too, don't I?

Posted By: BDS871Cuda

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 06:46 PM

Quote:

Heres a combo that my friend Robert just finished and its going to be in CarCraft pretty soon. Stock 440 block and crank with offset ground rod journals(470") and basically a 7.1" long BBC big and small end rod, 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb. The heads are like the 2nd set and [Email]T@D[/Email] made the rockers for them using these heads. Seems like 700 horsepower just got a little easier to make. There was very little tuning on the Dyno and more is to come because the engine is still on the Dyno.

Ok! We can race dyno's all day long and the
only way we will know if the combo works is at the track.
He say's 711 hp and he could be right.
Then if the dyno likes to make good numbers
just for a magazine, we can assume the motor should be
in the 680 hp range or even higher. YES:NO?
I think a 470" with OOTB Victors making 680+ hp
is very good. Only time will tell on the Victors,
and when more pro builds are in the works.
Like I said, it all depends on how it works at the track.
In the end, it's all good for MOPAR.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 06:53 PM

I haven't gotten my hands on the new Victors yet but I do know that if I took my existing motor that makes 740 hp and put a Victor intake on it with a 4150 carb that it would lose between 80 and 100 hp. I know the 4150 carb loses 50 hp even on the 440-2 intake since I just finished the set of tests. And I know that the Victor manifold with the small runners loses another 30-40 hp over the 440-2 since I've done those tests before.

So I'm thinking that unless the Victor heads are magically wonderful, those std port parts will give up a ton of power to the Dominator+max wedge port combo.

Posted By: StrokedDart

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 07:54 PM

Quote:

I know the 4150 carb loses 50 hp even on the 440-2 intake since I just finished the set of tests.

I know what I want for Christmas now.

Posted By: OriginalRT

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 08:02 PM

WOW ... and to think I was on the fence weather or not I wanted Jeff to open my Eddys to MW port or not. I was so in love with my WEIAND six pack set up but last minute ... I told him to open the ports up and I'd use another intake. I'm glad I did now

Thanks Andy once again for hookin us up with what works and how

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 08:12 PM

Your results might vary. Remember, I'm working with a 505 inch motor that is 13.5 compression, open headers, big cam, etc.

But yeah, the 950HP carb made 690 hp and the 1050 Dominator went 740 hp. Same motor, same dyno, same day, same intake, etc. The 950HP is a small venturi 4150 carb so maybe a 850DP would make a little more power.

Posted By: OriginalRT

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 08:22 PM

I currently have a Pro-Systems 950 and the Indy2 intake. I think I'm gonna skip the dominator though ... I want to get that X-box when I step up

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/06 10:36 PM

The 440-2 with a Dominator made more power (and costs a lot less) than the Indy X ram on my motor. Fast68 did some dyno testing where the X ram made more power than a 440-2 (or 440-3) intake. So I'd say the two are close in power but the single 4bbl will cost a lot less and be easier to dial in.

However, the x ram with dual carbs does have a big wow factor so that is cool.

Posted By: Wedge

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/09/06 03:31 AM

Quote:

I see that we don't have a 700 hp baseline in the archives so I figured I'd take a stab at it. I'm sure it can be done many different ways but this seems to be a fairly cost effective method:

RB block 4.350 bore
4.250 crank with 2.200 pins
6.800 Chevy rods
12.5 CR. (Diamond flat top shelf piston at zero deck)
Indy EZ heads with CNC porting by Modern Cylinder Head
Indy 440-3 intake or 440-2 with 4500 adapter
1050 Dominator carb
Flat tappet cam about the size of a MP .620
2 inch headers

Torque peak should be around 5200 rpm with power peak around 6200 rpm.

Great Thread.

Would you recommend any special block prep(hard block, aftermarket caps, top end oil restrictions)?

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/10/06 05:30 AM

Quote:

the 950HP carb made 690 hp and the 1050 Dominator went 740 hp. Same motor, same dyno, same day, same intake, etc.

i'll have to try that test on the 446 i'll be testing here shortly.
i dont expect to see anywhere near that much difference on the smaller motor.

when you ran the 440-2, did you use a spacer under the carb??
if not, then you're really comparing the big carb, with a 2" spacer, vs the small carb with no spacer.

some data:
my 451 used 960cfm at 7500rpm, and my buddies 557 used 1050cfm at 7000...same carb, same manifold.

my motor peaked at 7300, his peaked at 6400.

at peak power, my motor used 953cfm, his used 1003cfm.

the bsac at peak hp, my motor = 6.23, his motor = 6.34
the bsac at peak tq, my motor = 5.61, his motor = 5.52

i did do the carb test on a 600hp 446 a year or so ago with std port SR heads and a Victor intake:

Victor with 2" Super Sucker and HP950 carb =
544.4 ft/lbs @ 5300, 608.0hp @ 6500

Victor with Moroso 2" adapter and 1050 carb =
546.0 ft/lbs @ 5100, 613.9hp @ 6500

Victor with Moroso 2" adapter and Pro-Systems 1080 carb =
549.6 ft/lbs @ 5200, 615.2hp @ 6500

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/10/06 06:16 AM

I used a 2 inch tapered spacer under the 950 and the 2 inch adapter under the 1050. They both were blended into the manifold so I think it was a fair comparison. I didn't expect the 950HP carb to give up 50 hp but it did on these dyno pulls.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/10/06 02:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the 950HP carb made 690 hp and the 1050 Dominator went 740 hp. Same motor, same dyno, same day, same intake, etc.

i'll have to try that test on the 446 i'll be testing here shortly.
i dont expect to see anywhere near that much difference on the smaller motor.

On a smaller CID motor with smaller heads, intake, and cam, I agree. But I track tested my 511 with my 950hp carb and my 1150 Dominator and it was 0.2 seconds different. 1050 adapter with the 440-2 (modified), and no spacer with the 950hp (trying to slow it down for the 10.00 class). That is about 45 horsepower at my ET/weight.

Then again my buddy's 499 CID with SR heads, 400-2 intake, and smaller headers saw very little improvement going from my 950hp with 1" spacer to his 1050 Pro Systems Dominator with the adapter. And it wasn't the 1050 carb's fault, as we swapped my 1150 carb onto his car and it ran the same. Something else is the limiting factor on his combo.

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/10/06 03:02 PM

This is a great thread! I have a set of MW ported SR's and a ported IC 12 intake. I have a .640 roller on a 110 lsa. From reading this stuff I would think that a 10:1 528 would get me there very easily on pump gas!
I just need to fork out the dough for the TTI headers so that everything will fit nicely in the Bird.

Posted By: PUNK

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/10/06 05:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

470"... 10.9:1 compression, pump gas, Box Stock Victor heads and manifold with a .670 lift solid roller with [Email]270@.050.[/Email] It made 711 horsepower with a 1000 cfm 4150 carb.

On whose dyno? Sounds to me.

Well, I just had my buddy read these posts about his combo and he laughed at all the doubt, but he did correct me at one thing and that was the carb. He only had two carbs, one 950 and the other a dominator. The Dominator is what made the 711 hp and the 950cfm 4150 made 694 hp. He also dropped on a set of stock performer RPMs as a comparison and the engine only made 620 hp. This same engine had a set of ported RPMs on it in the past and it made I believe 670 hp. But I guess all these numbers are all fabricated unless you actually witness the engine on a reputable dyno. Have fun tearing up these numbers to.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/11/06 02:29 AM

Quote:

I guess all these numbers are all fabricated unless you actually witness the engine on a reputable dyno. Have fun tearing up these numbers to.

I have no doubt that his engine made the numbers you stated on that particular dyno. I also have serious doubts that those same combinations you described would make those #s on the dyno I've used for my last two dyno sessions.

This is just one more good example of why you can't compare the results of different dynos or different flow benches.

Posted By: PUNK

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 05/12/07 10:01 PM

Well, Im sure everyones read the Victor engine build article by now showing the possibilities of these heads. They are killer heads. Now only if they were more easily available.

Attached picture 3497157-MoparsattheStrip06BrianBest.JPG

Attached picture 3497157-MoparsattheStrip06BrianBest.JPG

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 05/13/07 02:01 AM

Are we saying an OOTB Victor will go 700hp with a 906 port window? Find that tough to believe from what I've seen of it (it just looks a little small for that HP) but I suspect it might with enough CR and a big enough cam opened early and with a tight center. I remember reading somewhere the Vic is limited to a 2.19" intake valve, is that right?

Fast's new test of a 505 is right down the pipe of how I'd do it for an automatic equipped B or E body, but I'd be curious to see an SR withan equal Intake and a better Exhaust port....the EZ's achilles heel is the low exhaust port but enough CR and a longer duration can offset a 'weak' port. I suspect an SR as described might make another 20 or so all else being equal. I'd love to see what the Chapman 285 (flows at .500 what the EZ does at .600 and another +30 at .6) would do on that combo.

A dominator will typically out et a comparable 4150 down the track (assumin enough gear and stall) because there will be less of a pressure drop across the venturis at WOT which normally equates to more torque being produced down the track. That said, unless you have enough stall to take WOT off the line, your results may vary.

I'd love to see a 700HP 'real street' combo...i.e, one that is truly docile enough for street driving with these conditions/stipulations....The motor's gotta fit under a Stock B or E hood (so the car looks outwardly visually "correct"), run a 3500 max stall and on pump gas and put a 3800 pound car well into the 10's with no more than a 3.91 gear.

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 03:41 AM

Been a while , how bout a bump, and add Firecore50 Ignition Wires.. !!

Good thread.

Posted By: BradH

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 04:09 AM

Quote:

Been a while , how bout a bump, and add Firecore50 Ignition Wires.. !!

Uhhhh... 3 years and 7 months since this was last updated before today???

Things a little slow around the Wire Factory, Rick?

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 06:48 AM

I'll take donations to dyno the 500" stroked 400

I'd be happy if it makes 700 HP.
Basic 500" stroker low deck short block, 4.375" bore, 4.150" stroke, 6.76" Rods, KB/ICON forged flat tops. With The Victor MW heads and cometic 0.040" gasket, about 12.4:1 compression.
Added BCR aluminum mains with girdle, Milodon oil pan, internal 1/2" pickup, ATI dampner, Hi-Volume oil pump.
Heads are the max wedge Edelbrock Victors, currently only mildly ported, with multi-angle valve job and alot of pushrod clearancing. I tried to get 2.00" install height on the valve springs, but ran out of clearance between the retainer and rocker arm. If you plan to run these heads with over 0.700" lift, I would get the heads bare, and use valves with 0.100" longer valve stems. I ended up milling off the rocker stands anyhow. Used T&D 1.6:1 rocker arms. I think these have an intake offset of 0.700". Custom pushrods with the intake 0.025" longer than the exhaust because of the rocker offset. I used the PAC-1325 valve springs, crower Ti retainers that should handle a pretty agressive roller cam. Probably overkill for my mild cam, but with a bigger cam, I would have to deepen the piston valve reliefs. The cam is a custom Comp solid roller with the HXL lobes, 264/264 @ 0.050" duration, 0.714"/0.714" lift, 112 LSA (it in a heavy street/strip car) installed at 108 cl (I may retard it, has plenty of torque.)
Intake is an Indy 400-2 4150 intake so I could re-use my Holley 1,000 cfm carb and also so it would fit under the cars hood (factory '72 Charger Power bulge hood.) I am also re-using my Hooker 2" super comp headers going into a 3" dual TTI exhaust system with crossover and the super turbo mufflers.

Posted By: jim sciortino

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 02:07 PM

In the early 90's we ran this 499ci in our 69' Barracuda....

4.375 x 4.150 RB
6.76 BME rods
11.8 static (IIRC)
620 solid
906 heads (ported by my brother)
M1 intake (gasket match)
1050 (9375)

727 footbrake
9in J
SS springs w/inboard kit
4.56

At 3380# it ran 10.03 @135+ first time out. We only raced that combination once because we changed it over to 440-1s and a roller.....but, it was street driven constantly.

I would be surprised if even an Edelbrock RPM head, ported correctly, with the proper roller cam, couldn't approach 700hp at 500ci in a well thought out build.

Posted By: firefighter3931

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 03:22 PM

Quote:

Been a while , how bout a bump, and add Firecore50 Ignition Wires.. !!

Good thread.

This one made 705 (720 with a dominator) on 93UL pump swill with a set of 8.5mm Firecores

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5622009

Ron

Attached picture 6345171-572dynoPRH.jpg

Posted By: RAMM

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 07:30 PM

70o hp out of standard port Victors? No way. I am no expert with those heads but have used them. I built a 471 11.4 comp, 269 @ .050" .752" single pattern and mufflers we made 717 hp and 652 ft/lbs on our SF-902. Down in Ohio @ the EMC '09 with way too much timing and through 13' of 3.5" mufflers and pipe we made 695 hp in the warmups. The article on this engine just came out, here's the link. 471 700hp build

Posted By: fishy340

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 08:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm right at that number now with standard stroke rb and a .055 overbore.

ummm...not to pick a fight...but running 9.90's at 133 at 3400 pounds is far from 700 ponies...our smallblock runs those numbers or a hair quicker at pretty much the same weight...no where near 700 ponies

i'd beg to differ,3400lbs car 9.90 ur damn close to 700hp betcha coffee on thAt 1.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 09:13 PM

I remember reading that article. Looked like you guys spent a bunch of time sorting out some different parts. Did you try any other intakes besides that Weiand? I've run the Weiand tunnel rams before and they are usually down on power when compared to an M1 tunnel ram. But of course, the M1 tunnel rams are hard to find becauase MP stopped making them.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 09:16 PM

Quote:

....I would be surprised if even an Edelbrock RPM head, ported correctly, with the proper roller cam, couldn't approach 700hp at 500ci in a well thought out build.

I haven't seen an Edelbrock RPM headed engine make 700 hp yet. I've run a bunch of them on a 505 shortblock with 12.5 compression, Dominator carbs, roller cams, etc. They seem stuck at about 650 to 680 hp. Not saying it isn't possible, but I don't think it is a backyard bolt together deal to make it happen. Probably need some really good head work and just the right camshaft, dome profile, etc.

Posted By: RAMM

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/08/10 10:44 PM

Yes Andy we tried numerous things and parts and within the EMC rules it was tough to break the 700HP barrier with the Victor heads-of course if I were to do it all over again I'm sure I could surpass 700HP quicker and easier. To answer your question though yes I tried an Edelbrock Victor 383 first and that is still on the engine right now. It makes 656 hp @ 6600 rpm and 612 tq @ 4200 rpm with that manifold. Yes I know that the Weiand tunnels are inferior but in my naivety chose to build a low deck and the only tunnel I could find for a b block was the Weiand. What really burns me up is I asked if I could adapt a tunnel for a 440 (knowing there are many superior choices) and the rules committee deemed that illegal as you could NOT use a manifold for a different engine family. Then along comes Mr.Kaase with a tunnel for a 351 (with 1.250" spacer) on a 400m block and nobody raises an eyebrow. He wasn't the only one with this scenario going on either. I should've just done my own thing without asking, it's not like I would've won anyways. But yes you are right the Weiand tunnels are very limited cross section wise especially when mated to a head such as the Victor. The Victors should just come in oneport option only and that is Max Wedge-there is too much CS change from port flange to SS in standard port form. J.Rob

Attached picture 6345964-tunnel.jpg

Posted By: AndyF

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/09/10 01:06 AM

Was the Mopar M1 low deck tunnel ram not allowed because it is no longer in production? I don't recall the EMC rules exactly. I've compared the M1 tunnel rams to the Weiand and have always picked up power at the top end. The Weiand design uses small CSA and long runners which work pretty well on some motors, but I wouldn't think it would work very well at 700 hp. You probably could used an Indy tunnel ram too. You might have needed to neck the runners down though to mate with the Victor heads.

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/09/10 01:39 AM

Andy, I loved this post. One of the most read posts in a while. I love the info on this.. Thanks for continuing your info.. Merry Christmas

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: 700 hp default combo? - 12/09/10 02:22 AM

Just looked up and saw my post from over 3 years ago

...man does time fly!

Well as it turns out I built the motor I was talking about in that thread, how cool is that when wishes find a way of coming true?

Several years ago Steve Dulcich's Engine Masters entry came in 3rd place with the Chapman Stage VI 470" motor, it made 752 or so on the Westech dyno....reported to be 'Happy') I think had the rules allowed for intake modifications I think he could have easily won first place in the 2500-6500RPM contest by using a Max wedge ported Indy 2D.

I modeled much of my 517 low deck off of Steve's EM effort (which was in many ways also very similar to our own Moparts effort), and combined that with numerous machining and tuning elements I've learned over 30+ years of messing with these beasts. I figured if I could get around 90% of Steve's peak HP with more torque by using the exact same CNC heads on a 10% larger cube shortblock, I'd have everything I ever wanted in a Big block.... Wall to wall torque at any RPM or throttle position, razor sharp response and Hemi like top end power from 380 cfm max wedge heads.

My philosophy for street motors is almost always to build the bottom end for torque and put the best available heads on it and them select the smallest cam that will get you to the target power zone. This way you have the most useable overall powerband below the peak which is where you are actually using it 95% of the time. Plus, if I wanted to push it I've got some potential untapped power in reserve.

That said I'm pretty sure my combo is a single plane intake and a similar grind solid roller away from going comfortably over 700, but to me it's not worth giving up maybe 40+ lb feet all throughout the mid range to gain maybe (at most) another 25-30 above 5500. Opinions vary but to me a 4500 stall/5200 flash vert is a waste on the street with a 500 inch motor because you side step too much grunt and it misses the point of what a stroker is really all about.

There may be big blocks out there that may pull a few more HP than mine, but I doubt there's many that are as thrilling to drive when you factor real world roll-on, any gear, any terrain type driving into consideration. I've thought about dropping this motor or a clone of it into something like a Cobra replica just because it's such a blast to drive. It's more like a Viper motor with CNC'ed W5 race heads than it is a drag motor....and that's just fine with me.