SB stroker options for track car

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Personally I don't see any reason for anyone to ever build another engine with Mopar rods in it, SB or BB. Just use the BBC or SBC rods for everything.

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amen to that, puzzles me to no end

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How about a 4.125" stroke with a 6.200" sj chevy rod aroud 1.310 CH. With that piston it will still use a standrd ring pack, and I just happen to have the last of the prototypes in a 360 main.

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Heads are Edelbrock LA style with 5/16" stemmed 2.080/1.600 valves. Intake's flowing about 315 so far.

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315 sounds really good, correct?

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Looks good. And I liked your big block book. Thanks

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The new bellhousing from QuickTime showed up a few days ago. Nice looking piece and it is about 12 lbs lighter than the Lakewood housing that was there.

This bellhousing has a dual bolt pattern so the stock transmission bolts on and so does a Doug Nash 5 speed. QuickTime has bellhousings for other transmissions including Richmond, Jerico, Muncie, TKO, T56, etc.

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Andy I am very interested in what is needed to make the quicktime b-h work without compromise as I have another [new] stroker engine to put in my pos and that b-h would be the hot ticket.

Any idea what this engine would cost?

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Are you asking how much the 427 engine that we're building will cost? My spreadsheet says it is adding up to $15,000 retail.

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Gasp, Gasp... I'm out.

Whether I had the money or not, I can't justify that until I've spent a similar amount on the chassis to utilize that power. And I think to do that a roll cage and mini tubs would be in that mix.

At that point I'd personally rather build a racecar legal for VARA vintage racing. Same money, more fun.

Also, is that $15K not including assembly labor. Like just parts and machining in the $15K number.

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Close up on the exhaust side.

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They'll drop in once you machine away the extra head bolt bosses in the valley. If you don't own a multi-axis machining center then it isn't really a drop-in operation.

That is the tough thing about answering a question like this. To a guy like Ryan these things just bolt together! To the average guy with a Craftsman tool box and a double car garage it just isn't possible.

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Nice work Andy
What did you use for the oil filter fitting? Matt

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I used steel fittings that are 3/8 NPT to #8 AN. I couldn't find any that went to #10 AN and I didn't want to spend the time making fittings.

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Brian at IMM helped out on the design of those lifters before Comp even had a part number. Nice stuff.

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The last chain tensioner didn't last very long so this time we'll run it without one.

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autoxcuda,
Roller timing chain really cut into the tensioner in no time. Yes, that engine was run hard and HOT but oil pressure was always present. Maybe its meant only for factory link style chains??

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BLP (Bo Laws) makes steel AN 3/8" to -10 & -12 like you were looking for.... About 4.4" long.

I've never been comfortable going down to -8's.

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I got the fittings from BLP. Nice quality stuff, thanks for the tip.

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Here is a picture of the tensioner after just a few hours of operation.

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We have a few different pans for the motor. Kevko, Milodon, dry sump, etc. Probably going to end up with a custom built Kevko by the time we're done.

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Are you going with a pan that sit no lower than the K-member? There's people interested in this kind of pan if Kevko make it available.

Would a Milodon big block road race pan bottom work if adapted to a small block pan? Or would anything with side kick outs run into header issues? Milodon says the big block road race pan sells, but they have have no current interest in a small block one. Maybe some persuasion??

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Tim has designed a low profile pan with kickouts that fits in his chassis. Should have it in a week or so and we'll see how it fits. The last Kevko pan fit okay and had some really nice features as well as a few minor problems.

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I think the big block road race pan lower assembly could be welded to a SB pan. I've thought of doing it myself but haven't done it. I've thought of asking Milodon to do it but haven't yet.

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I'll ask Ken at Milodon if they are willing to do a small block road race pan for the project we're working on.

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I can offer Ken early or late k-members, steering linkage, steering gears, a 68 Dart w/small block... Our office I work from is 3 buildings over from Milodon and I live about 2 miles away. Steve, the owner, is in our car club and I know him well.

What is the basic design of the pan your are thinking of: headers that will fit, stock k-member fitment, trap doors, baffle system ...? I can work on pre orders from Mopax list Mopar racers that need this type of pan that priced, $379, like thier big block pan.

Milodon Big Block pan reference picture:

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I'd think most people would be running TTi headers on a car like this with stock steering. People are usually willing to open up the K frame a bit for more clearance but not change the steering or change headers.

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The big block road race pan is a really nice design but it might be too wide for small block headers. I don't have the car in my shop at the moment so I can't do any measurements right now.

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Almost ready to go.

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Is that water pump just for the dyno?

What about Tim's copper tubing breather system? I guess that doesn't look cool for magazine pics.

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Sorry Steve,

I really wanted to attend SFSF4 but its's just not gonna happen this year. I considered attending with car in current form but the 1000 mi (one way) tow, and other constraints prevent it from happening. I will miss it, but hopefully have the car fully dialed in and ready for next year.

Tim W

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Old drivetrain weighed 670 lbs. This is a 360 with iron heads and a cast iron four speed.

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I don't know how effective that PCV arrangement is. That breather setup was the result of a bunch of frustration with other systems that leaked oil during sustained cornering. I'm sure the design could be improved even more if we wanted to spend time on it. If it was my design I'd probably focus on weight reduction as the next step.

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Copper tubing reminds us that this is a home built car dones for function and purpose. Same for the front air dam some might recognize for it's other application.

But for a magazine article, painted all grey or something would probably work and look fine.

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The new Charlie's oil pan fits nice and looks like it is going to work really well. Not sure if you can see much of it in the pictures posted so far but figured you might be interested in that detail.

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Thanks for the pan pictures. That 73-76 K-member really screws thing up.

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Yeah, it is a low buck car with a $20,000 motor!! (and $3000 brakes!)

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Andy, is there a build thread on the Valiant itself?

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Tim took the car for some shake down runs the other night. Says he can feel the additional 100 hp. I weighed the car after he brought it back and it is now 3130 lbs with a 55/45 split. Original weight was 3250 with a 56/44 split. So we took off about 100 lbs and most of it came off the nose. Still need to fix a few things before heading to the track on Monday.

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3130 lbs and 100 more HP...



I gotta long way to go...

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Tim took the car for some shake down runs the other night. Says he can feel the additional 100 hp. I weighed the car after he brought it back and it is now 3130 lbs with a 55/45 split. Original weight was 3250 with a 56/44 split. So we took off about 100 lbs and most of it came off the nose. Still need to fix a few things before heading to the track on Monday.

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Cool! Please keep us updated.

Sounds small but that's a SIGNIFICANT change!

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Yeah, it is a low buck car with a $20,000 motor!! (and $3000 brakes!)

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Peak power for engine from the dyno sheets is at 5800 rpm. 5800 rpm in this car with the existing gear ratios and tire size is 150 mph. Guess we'll see what happens on Monday at the track. The back straight at PIR is long enough to carry full throttle for some time. Not sure if the car will go 150 though, that would be really hauling.

The car has plenty of power. I went for a ride today with the wide band setup in my lap. Tim punched it a few times and the car really gets up and goes. Very impressive for 2.94 rear end gears.

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Car went 145 mph on the shakedown run. Tim says it had plenty left in it. Engine developed an oil leak so that ended the fun for the day.

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Awesome! That thing was movin' for a shakedown run.

What did he feel the potentional MPH at that track with current setup?

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Can I talk you into putting a Fiberglass hood on that car?

That is a BITCHEN car! I want!

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Teardown is yet to occur, appears to be leaking from rear of pan. This is a custom Charlies pan, and he did a nice job. Its my own design to maintain ground clearance its not very deep, but even with kickouts and Accusump its not enough.

The pan doesn't use a gasket. 100% RTV all the way round. Yes, it was hospital clean at assembly, wiped down with brakleen several times. Beads on both sides, squished out nice on assembly. Worked great in the past.

With the old motor the car was about as fast as a C5 Z06, should be able to run with a C6 Z06 once sorted out. Brakes surpassed expectations, never a shortage of power, it just kept pulling as if the wind wasn't there.

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That's really incredible.

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Andy's on the right path, I'm ready for something different. If he is willing to unload the 427 motor, I might have a roller for sale.

Tim

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Please don't sell it over a leak and lack of a pan. Hotchkis had a custom aluminum Moroso pan that leaked also. They went back and forth, still leaked. It was on their self collecting dust.

I'm workin' on a pan deal. Just getting caught up after pulling two motor/trans' and installing one in a two week period out of a home garage and a complete new suspension on the car.

You've probably got the fastest road race street Mopar in the world right now. Wait until the article comes out and you get some well deserved recognition. You've conquered these challenges in the past. And you will get by this on too.

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Oiling issues have always been a problem. Whenever the car goes faster the issues come back. Nothing unusual about that, oiling issues have always been a problem for wet sump road race cars.

Tim has tried a bunch of different oil pans over the years as well as different valve covers, dipsticks, breathers, etc. Whenever the performance increases then the g-loads increase and the oiling issues come back.

A dry sump system should solve all of the problems but it costs a bunch and then it all has to be packaged into the car. It isn't easy or cheap but it should solve the various issues that we're seeing.

It is really difficult to package a good oil pan into a stock chassis with headers and a low ride height. Nobody makes a good road race oil pan for these cars so each one needs to be custom built which takes time and money. The R&D process is a little painful when the engine has to be pulled out each time to change the pan.

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**AndyF not trying to hijack your thread, but I think this is revelant since your current situation is the oil pan. And I think one of these pans is or was sent up to you**

I've been working with Milodon since May on a small block Mopar pro touring/high capacity-stock height/road race pans similar to the other road race pans they make like the big block Mopar one, pn 31580. Many people use that big block road race pan on their HiPo street cars to get a pan that does not go past their K-member and get smashed, but still has increased capacity and advanced oil control. This pan is actually a little shorter than even a stock pan for ultimate low ground clearance situations!!

It just took about 2 years of needling Milodon to do this, so I want to get the word out. They really stepped up the plate with this.



These 318/340 and 360 pans just came out last Friday and available NOW!: http://www.milodon.com/oil-pans/road-race-oil-pans.asp

One of the requirements I felt for this new pan was fitting A-bodies as well as B and E bodies. And the toughest requirement was fitting the super-duper tight 73-76 A-body spool K-member. The spool motor mounts create a wall of K-member right down the bottom of the pan. So we tested the pan extensively with a 73-76 K-member with full steering linkage. Just fitting the pan to E and B bodies would have been easy, but the A’s would be left out.

I have also ran dry on oil in my Barracuda with a just a stock pan at the track. My car was not anywhere near as fast as Tim’s 68 Valiant. Stock small block pans have NO BAFFLING whatsoever. Most big block Mopar HP and a lot of non HP pans have some baffling front and rear. None for any small block, ever. My new 416 stroker SB WILL have this new Milodon SB pan.

Point is, any somewhat serious pro touring or suspension mod car you should think about protecting the motor with a baffled pan designed for high sustained G’s. Also this pan should be considered for someone that wants an increased capacity Small Block pan, but does not want to deal with a pan that sit anything below the K-member.

This pan is a serious handling, road race piece. Some of the features of this NEW pan:

-Side pods for 6 quarts of oil
-FIVE trap door/gates
-3 braking deacceleration gates to keep oil around the sump under hard braking
-2 lateral G gates
-fully baffled sump for complete oil control
-false right angle wall at back of sump to keep oil from very rear of pan. Also allows more centerlink clearance for possible lowered motors.
-decades of SCCA road race proven sump design features in this pan.
-fully TIG welded construction
-Made right here in USA

This pan should not need the band aid of an accusump reserve system. Unless of course there is a weak link somewhere else in the oiling system. I know $450 is a lot for an oil pan. But look at a $200 drag race pan with the bucket welded under them. Then look at all pictures I took of the gates, ledges, baffles, custom sump, weld quality, construction quality of this Road Race pan and I think you will understand some of the $$$ differences.

These new small block pans will be on display at Fall Fling October 30, 2010 and at SEMA.

These are some quick pictures when I went over there after work. The lights were all off in the manufacturing area...

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....Any block oiling modifications? Decided on an oil pump yet? Sorry for all the questions, LOL

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Bringing this back up since I am working on my block's oiling passages right now. I just ported the oil filter block area passages, main cap to pump, and inside the pump. Just a melling HV unit

Other areas for improvement/concern?

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The Milodon road race pan showed up the other day so we've been working on getting it installed. The pan looks great and I'm sure it will solve the oiling issues we've been having with Tim's car. We haven't figured out how to get the motor into the car with the pan installed on it though. It doesn't drop into place in the usual way so we'll need to figure out another way to do it.

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Install the motor without the trans connected?

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what is the interference point exactly?

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The Doug's D453 headers are also 8 lbs lighter than the TTi headers. That might not matter to most people, but 8 lbs off the front of a track day car is a plus.

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The combination of the BLP carb and the MSD ready to run distributor make tuning a lot easier. The BLP carb has fully jetted metering blocks so we can quickly dial it in. The MSD lets you change the advance curve by just turning a screwdriver. I just changed from 15 initial and 20 in the distributor to 20 initial and 15 in the distributor. Took less than 90 seconds to do that. With an old MP distributor you would be there half the day taking the thing apart and welding up the slots.

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Andy how close are the distributor plug boots to the 2 speed wiper motor?

I just bought a MSD E-curve and the boots are 1/2" from my 3 speed wiper motor. So... to take my cap off I have to remove 2-3 wire boots. Lame, because the whole idea of the E-curve was to make quick and each distributor adjustments.

From info I've got this E-curve is 1" taller than a regular MSD billet distributor. Can others confirm this?

Seems to be extremely poor planning and R&D on MSD's part. I don't really think this is 100% racer oriented piece where you would assume owners would not be running windsheild wipers.

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Yes, it is pretty close to the wiper motor. I think we did have to pull a couple of plug wires to take the cap off. I didn't mind though, the tuning process is still dramatically faster than with an old school distributor. Just pull the cap and dial up a different advance curve. We tried several different advance curves in Tim's car before we hit on one that really worked.

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1)on the height issue, unfortunately the distributor is 8 3/8 tall. which if you do a search or look in a catalog it will list all the specs.

and check that isse of the clearance issue with the firewall and throttle first.

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Dang that's serious $ for a distributor ...

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Agreed. I'd rather set up 4 or 5 stock distributors with different specs and just swap them out. That's partly because I have a pile of them though.

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The engine builder has the 427 back together and we're ready to get it back on the dyno. He had to spend a fair amount of time getting the windage tray to both clear the big stroke and the road race pan. It all fits but it has to be tucked in there just right.

We'll focus mostly on some step testing and steady state runs. Maybe do a power pull or two just to see what she makes. I'd be surprised if the new oil pan changes the power output but it is possible. Mostly we're just making sure there aren't any leaks or other problems before the engine goes back in the car.

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What brand main studs did you use? We had to cut them down flush for the 4.0 stroke crank. We also dimpled the shallow cutout of the pan. And we didn't use the pickup tube to cap support strap.

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I used ARP main studs. The ARP studs have a hex broached in the end so they are a little nicer to work with. We had to notch the pan for the windage tray nuts so it took some effort to get everything to fit.

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It ran nice on the dyno today. No leaks anywhere after plenty of stress testing, valve lash looked good, cranking compression is identical in all 8 holes, plugs look good. So she should be ready to drop back in the car so Tim can take it to the track this summer.

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I didn't take any pics of the windage tray mods. The engine builder did the work and he had it all together before I showed up with the camera.

Main change since last time on the dyno was the oil pan. Also changed the valve covers in an attempt to stop the various oil leaks. Ran a belt driven water pump this time so we chould check for leaks but it didn't seem to cost any power. Engine still made almost identical power to a year ago even though the dyno cell had seen a number of changes. Power curve is very similiar to a Viper, 520/520.

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June issue of Mopar Muscle has a follow up feature on this engine as well as a few pics of the car.

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He might not think the picture is very flattering! We were both a little tired and dirty when I snapped the photo.

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