Moparts

Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts

Posted By: B3422W5

Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 04:22 PM

Firstly, i want to thank John Cope for sponsoring the event, as its a very fun class and i love the pro tree

Now , my HONEST concerns.

Imo, the rules have been changed for the worst, and i say this with no ill feelings, as no matter how i do, i am always going to be back at work on Monday mornings to pay my bills and help support my racing hobby.I have won enough 10 flat events that i dont question my skills when the cars are forced to have the same rules applied to everybody in the class(box, weight, etc)

My feeling is that the table is way skewed with there being delay boxes allowed, and not having weight rules.

I went 040 when i went out Saturday, and frankly, i dont think too many people in a 3350 pound car without a box are going to be too much better than that. I could care less if a car can run 7.50's in the 1/4 , they still have to go 10 flat. But the disparity in weight in this class is, imo, frankly a joke.
It shouldnt be a secret to anybody that a 2400 pound car is going to react way quicker with a similar skill set driver than a 3000 pound plus car.Its going to 60 foot better, and react quicker. That is why any 10 flat or 9 flat type events i am aware of always have weight limits,(no delay boxes allowed in the cars,etc)



Might this affect car count, sure. Would it be more fair to all who compete, sure it would. I honestly dont have all the answers to that.

Perhaps a 500 tree might negate the big advantage a lightweight car has to some degree.

Personally, i will still race in it, at Norwalk, as its the only chance to ty a 400 tree we have at these events.

Do i think the rules need revamped...yes, without any doubt.


Is this sour grapes, i hope its not taken that way, as it isnt meant to be.
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 05:17 PM

No sour grapes Don, I don't take it that way, you know what they say about rules, they are never made to satisfy everyone. I don't disagree that my car is set up to run that class, but I will say that running the cuda coulda been a blessing in disquise because the lights I watched my competition cut this weekend were the best I have seen collectively since this 10.0 racing began. I thought that maybe it would silence some critics however when I took a totally strange car to me and was able to race it to the runner up slot. The rule changes you propose would then tailor your car and could be said to be the same disadvantage to me or some others. Again I 2 am not trying to stir the pot, but if the rules do change you can trust I will find some way to adapt to them so that I may continue to compete.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 05:45 PM

I am not looking to tailor the rules to my car at all, just to have a fairly even playing field for the race.

I raced the 10 flat series at Stanton(Mid mich motorplex)for years. 3000 pound minimum for small block, and 3200 for big block, and no delay boxes. My car was still heavier even there than 90% of the cars that showed up, but i was in the top 4 in points or beter up there every year in a very competetive venue. But without a box, and with the minimum weights, nobody has a car capable of going read and being able to "slow down" their reaction time, it made it truly a drivers race, not who had the lightest car and the most electronics....that is essentially my whole point.

Heck, the only two classic events i go to are 131 and Norwalk. If i won both of them(800 bucks or so)after gas and entry fees, motel, food, etc that wouldnt even pay for a delay box, if i even wanted one, and i dont.It isnt about the money, i never go racing to supplement my income, i go to win,but sure dont count on doing anything other than spending more than i win

You are a great driver, and i am sure will do good no matter the rules. I just would like the cars and equipment to be more level, the drivers well......

Anyhow, i dont think it is going to happen(a rule change)..its just been bugging me for a while and i am not the kind of person who wont say whats on my mind... i am quite positive i am not the only one, but others may not be willing to say what i said publically....
Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 05:53 PM

With every thing else staying the same just changing to a 500 pro tree would even things out or at least give the usually heavier high 9s cars a even chance at the tree. There would be no down side to the box cars they can just change their delay. Unless you can go red on a 400 pro tree do your really have a shot?
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 06:00 PM

Quote:

With every thing else staying the same just changing to a 500 pro tree would even things out or at least give the usually heavier high 9s cars a even chance at the tree. There would be no down side to the box cars they can just change their delay. Unless you can go red on a 400 pro tree do your really have a shot?



I remember the first year they had the 10 flat shootout at Norwalk, and it was on a 500 tree, and everybody seemed to like it. Most of the races i had that weekend guys were 25 or 30 or better on the tree, i had a couple of 0 lights myself that weekend.Even footbrake guys have a legit shot at a 500 tree.

That alone would even it up a ton, even if you allowed boxes to still be in the cars.


Correct me if i am wrong but probably 80-90 percent of the guys currently dont use boxes anyhow, just a few do.

When i look in the staging lanes at Classic events, there are WAY fewer box cars than no box cars.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 06:04 PM

Quote:

With every thing else staying the same just changing to a 500 pro tree would even things out or at least give the usually heavier high 9s cars a even chance at the tree. There would be no down side to the box cars they can just change their delay. Unless you can go red on a 400 pro tree do your really have a shot?



I'm one of the light cars but this should
even things up a lot.... and if I recall in the first
year it was a 500 tree
Posted By: Hunted Duck

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 06:37 PM

Don I think I know what your saying. You want a level playing field. Thats the way it should be. That way everyone has a chance when they roll through the gate.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 06:40 PM

Quote:

Don I think I know what your saying. You want a level playing field. Thats the way it should be. That way everyone has a chance when they roll through the gate.



Alan(sb412 duster)has the best idea, if you are gonna let boxes and any weight car run, just go back to a 5 tenths pro tree like it used to be, that will even it up considerably and not make any less number of cars be able to run, in fact maybe some footbrakers might have a swing as well.
Posted By: scottb

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 06:54 PM

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it
Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 06:58 PM

Quote:

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it



But......a 3350 lb car can't react quick enough to use a box.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:02 PM

Quote:

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it



Thats true Scott but a heavier car has a better chance
at getting of the line with the 500 tree VS a light
car on a 400 tree.... sure anyone with a delay box
has a better chance at the perfect light
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it



But......a 3350 lb car can't react quick enough to use a box.



If i can go 0's on a 500 tree anybody can, but i know i cant on a 400 tree. i still think that is the way to go.

And i did and do give lonnie credit, he is playing by the rules, i just dont think the rules are fair for all competitors....
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:09 PM

For the record I am okay with a .500 tree, I really have no problem with winning races with my opponent going red either.
Posted By: 9 Sec Phill

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it



But......a 3350 lb car can't react quick enough to use a box.


Then you need to put your 3350 lb car on a diet. Rule are rules, just do your best with what you have.....Phill
Posted By: Hunted Duck

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:13 PM

Does anybody know why the switched back to .400 from .500?
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it



But......a 3350 lb car can't react quick enough to use a box.


Then you need to put your 3350 lb car on a diet. Rule are rules, just do your best with what you have.....Phill




I do the best i can..and have fun doing it...my thoughts here are just my opinion, and a suggestion, nothing more and nothing less.....i will race no matter what.

I like my car the way it is, i have no intention of changing it for a better chance at winning 400 bucks a couple of times a year, i dont do it for a living
Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:26 PM

With a .500 pro tree you don't need a box to be competitive or at least have a chance. It would make the class more competitive. With the possibility of increasing the car count.
Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 07:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It still does not mater if its a 500 tree or a 400 tree you just roll more in the box was taking to my brother in law about boxes this morning.Also you have to give Lonnie credit he is racing by the RULES and doing a good job at it



But......a 3350 lb car can't react quick enough to use a box.


Then you need to put your 3350 lb car on a diet. Rule are rules, just do your best with what you have.....Phill



First of all, my car weighs nowhere near 3350 lbs. I'm just stating, that
a high-9 or 10.00 car can't react at 3350# like a mid-9 car at 2200#. I
don't care if Darrell Alderman is running the car.

A .500 tree would even up the starting line advantage.

The CRT 10.00 Shootout is a fun race that a lot of people like to run.
These races are usually tight! Not many want to ante up an entry fee
knowing they have a .12 disadvantage on the tree.

I'm not bitching. I just understand the point being made.
Posted By: 9 Sec Phill

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 08:00 PM

I raced Don in the first 10 oh race. He told me to bring it to the tree and I did with a .014 in my old street car. But Don did me better with a .009 and took the stripe. was a great race and to Don for cutting a great light....Phill
Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 08:11 PM

Didn't they run a .500 tree the first year?
Posted By: OhioGTX

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 08:29 PM

This thread is interesting...I run one of those heavy cars ( 3510 lbs ) and find it difficult to cut a good light w/out going deep on the bulb with .400 tree. I do not like to deep stage but it is effective...If we implemented a .500 tree I would not have to do that and would really like the ability to roll some delay into the box...So I am all for a .500 tree.

And agreed big thanks to John Cope for sponsoring this race. Regardless of the tree it is a lot of fun to participate in.
Posted By: SnakeEisz67

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 09:00 PM

Changing the rules to a .500 tree would be interesting. I managed to get some .0 lights this past weekend in 10.0. They were in the .060 - .070 range but when you get a .027 strapped on you by a lighter car it's all over real early when someone can drive the stripe. Will continue to run the class either way as I find it a blast.

Kudos to John Cope for sponsoring the class as well!
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 09:07 PM

Quote:

Changing the rules to a .500 tree would be interesting. I managed to get some .0 lights this past weekend in 10.0. They were in the .060 - .070 range but when you get a .027 strapped on you by a lighter car it's all over real early when someone can drive the stripe. Will continue to run the class either way as I find it a blast.

Kudos to John Cope for sponsoring the class as well!




I think anywhere from 40-70 is paying attention when you dont have a box and have a heavy car, that is pretty much the range i was in all day in 10.0.

But as you said, when guys go 013 on you, and there is no way in the world you can get a heavy car with no box to do that, as you said its all over.

I say let em keep the boxes if they must, but have the race on a 500 pro tree, like it originally was to begin with.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 09:17 PM

I say make it .500 Pro tree and let the fast reacting box boys put some delay in it to go green. I think it will definitely level the playing field.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 09:23 PM

Well from reading all the replies, the concensus seems to be most everybody(including the reighing champ, Lonnie)either wants to go 5/10th pro tree, or else is fine if it is changed to that.

Hopefully our sponsor, MR Cope, will see this thread and throw his thoughts into this.

I think the racing would be much closer, we arent going to lose anybody we currently have, and might gain a couple more guys, if anything
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 09:29 PM

Going to .500 tree is fine with me, on a .400 tree I used a box but rolled all zero's in it and came straight off the button, only because my box is not set-up to be removed from the car.
Posted By: 1BadLiLCharger

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/20/09 09:47 PM

Quote:

Changing the rules to a .500 tree would be interesting. I managed to get some .0 lights this past weekend in 10.0. They were in the .060 - .070 range but when you get a .027 strapped on you by a lighter car it's all over real early when someone can drive the stripe.



I had an .027, was that you?

Boxes? We don't need no stinkin' boxes!

Anyways, I'm cool with a 500 tree. I can finally shallow stage and adjust the t-brake button from there.
Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 07/20/09 10:02 PM

Posted By: SnakeEisz67

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 01:32 AM

Yes Pewter & Blue 67 Valiant. Was a nice light you had. Obviously I need more practice with the .400 pro tree but I'm getting better. I have weight in the car and a throttle stop on it now to slow it down but thinking about going the other way and trying to race the stripe as others are doing. From what I saw your running well into the nines in Pro yourself. Congrats on the win.
Posted By: ProSport

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 01:36 AM

Quaker was suppose to host some 10 flat shootouts this year but it didn't pan out due to track schedule problems.
It was gonna be a street car oriented, .500 pro tree, mufflers required, 10.5 tires, glass windows, factory hood scoops, and no lettering allowed on the car. I was so anxious to run that class!
But, as we've said before, car count would be a problem at a CC event if you change too many rules.
I vote for a .500 regular tree or a .500 pro tree and no delay boxes but that would leave out some good friends and cater towards my own car so I'll just shut up now.
Posted By: 1BadLiLCharger

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 02:57 AM

I don't think taking out the delay boxes would keep anyone out. You can still let some air out of the fronts, bring down your launch rpm, shallow stage if you're not already and if you can, adjust your trans brake button for more travel.

Quote:

Yes Pewter & Blue 67 Valiant. Was a nice light you had. Obviously I need more practice with the .400 pro tree but I'm getting better. I have weight in the car and a throttle stop on it now to slow it down but thinking about going the other way and trying to race the stripe as others are doing. From what I saw your running well into the nines in Pro yourself. Congrats on the win.



Thanks. You may be losing a little reaction time by using that throttle stop, found that out for myself in Pitts. I can pull it off in my '81 Charger, but the Dart doesn't like it for some reason.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 12:05 PM

Quote:


Perhaps a 500 tree might negate the big advantage a lightweight car has to some degree.

That and no delay box would encourage lots more entries, IMO.

Those would not "hurt" any cars and would not give an "advantage" to heavy cars either.

And as I recall NHRA SST and IHRA Hot Rod run on the 0.500 pro tree.
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 01:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Perhaps a 500 tree might negate the big advantage a lightweight car has to some degree.

That and no delay box would encourage lots more entries, IMO.

Those would not "hurt" any cars and would not give an "advantage" to heavy cars either.

And as I recall NHRA SST and IHRA Hot Rod run on the 0.500 pro tree.



Allowing delay boxes as well
Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 01:56 PM

I have said since this class began that running on a .500 pro tree would be a great equalizer. I also don't see anything wrong with running a delay box. I can pull my box out and use my long button in about 10 seconds so it doesn't matter to me, but car counts are what will keep these kinds of classes around. I think if you eliminated delay boxes then you would see alot of guys going red and nobody wants to see a bunch of racing decided by the red bulb.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 03:06 PM

Mr Cope...your thoughts????


Posted By: CRT

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 03:56 PM

my thoughts, I made it to the semis in a 3575 lbs car running 10.09 to 10.12, if I ever get the dam car to run 10.Os I will do better. At my home track, I also made it to the final 3 just 4 weeks ago. It also is a .400s tree. I like the ten O just the way it is, FYI = I do NOT make the rules, CC events does. To tell ya th truth, the
"lets change the rules" is getting old and I am sick of it. Thats my thoughts.
Posted By: eddie_ccevents

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 04:10 PM

John,
I agree the lets change the rules is getting old. For what it is worth I watch all these rounds and see all thess run sheets and find it hard to believe that now that the gap is closing and guys are getting use to the .400 tree that you want to change the rules.
With that being said I will however put this matter of a .500 or a .400 tree to a vote at Norwalk with the only people having a vote being the people who have supported the class this year. You must have raced in 3 of the 4 races this year to have a vote . This vote will happen on sunday and Norwalk.
Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 04:16 PM

So.....If any of you have chosen to set out because you didn't
feel you would be competitive, you still don't have any say.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 04:17 PM

Quote:

my thoughts, I made it to the semis in a 3575 lbs car running 10.09 to 10.12, if I ever get the dam car to run 10.Os I will do better. At my home track, I also made it to the final 3 just 4 weeks ago. It also is a .400s tree. I like the ten O just the way it is, FYI = I do NOT make the rules, CC events does. To tell ya th truth, the
"lets change the rules" is getting old and I am sick of it. Thats my thoughts.



Yes you made the semis, but didnt a guy break and not show for first round, and a couple of other "oddities" happen as well? Not lessening your great showing, just stating a fact.

I made the semi's at Norwalk last Sept as well, that doesnt mean the rules shouldnt be looked at if they are skewed after we have been doing this a while and have a chance to see how it is working out for all involved

If i remember correctly, the rules were changed to what they curently are right here on this forum several years ago,by moparts members,(several of whom i think i havent seen race in this event with any regularity if at all), that were the proponents of the 400 tree and allowing delay boxes, and had nothing to do with classic events. Changing what they originally were that first year at Norwalk(.500 tree)...Forgive me for wanting to see them changed, when my input several years ago on this forum was ignored(to leave it alone and keep it like it originally was) and the rules were changed by others on here to what they currently are. ..hey, if they dont get changed, they dont get changed, but from reading this post, the guys who pay the entry fees seem to like keeping everything the same except going to a 500 tree...or did i miss something???
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 04:23 PM

Quote:

John,
I agree the lets change the rules is getting old. For what it is worth I watch all these rounds and see all thess run sheets and find it hard to believe that now that the gap is closing and guys are getting use to the .400 tree that you want to change the rules.
With that being said I will however put this matter of a .500 or a .400 tree to a vote at Norwalk with the only people having a vote being the people who have supported the class this year. You must have raced in 3 of the 4 races this year to have a vote . This vote will happen on sunday and Norwalk.




that rules me out, 2 events is all i can ever get off work for, so good luck guys

FTR..the guys on here(not me)who changed the rules from what they were to what they are now sure didnt if very many instances show up to 3 of 4 events........ (and i hope you rememberr who you were on that thread a few years ago)
Posted By: QWK_ENUF

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 05:04 PM

the first 10.0 shoot out i went 4 rounds foot breakin with the 500 tree with a car that ran 10 teens

last year i went to 4 out of 5 cc events and ran the 10.0 with a car that some say is not competitive and they are probally right and actually finished 9th in points and i think i only won 1 round

i like the extra rounds i get for $20 and besides it is fun to do the heads up thing.

if i ever get my car to run 10.0's i might actually win a round against the 8 and 9 sec cars in the class

hey eddie does my vote count since i have entered every 10.0 event at every cc event that i have ever been at and kinda wished it was a 500 tree instead of the 400 that it is now

either way one of these days i'm gonna get lucky and nail that smack puppy and you can count me in at all the 10.0 shootouts
Posted By: scottb

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 05:06 PM

To have only the racers that made it to 3out 4 races is wrong some have other things going on and cannot make it to all the races .Why would you not listen to the racers before 1st round on saturday and see what happens you may get more racers will to show up frist round and that is more money for cc events. I will support it either way it is I like the racing its fun and something differnt but I do see what the others are saying
Posted By: QWK_ENUF

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 05:08 PM

bring back the 500 tree
Posted By: Hunted Duck

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 05:44 PM

If your gonna vote, ya gotta vote before time trials start. Or send a letter out to those that entered your criteria before your pre-register for Norwalk. That way everyones know's before they show up and can do what they have to do to there car's.
Posted By: CRT

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 06:08 PM

The vote results will not start untill 2010 Norwalk will be .400 tree
Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 06:12 PM

The delay box is not a issue they still have to let go of the button the same as a guy with out. The .500 pro tree gives everyone the same chance at the tree no matter what car they have. The .500 pro tree gives no advantage to one side or the other like the .400 pro tree does. I Also think it's a mistake to not listen to future and present 10.0 racers
Posted By: 1Bad440

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 07:22 PM

Quote:

Forgive me for wanting to see them changed, when my input several years ago on this forum was ignored(to leave it alone and keep it like it originally was) and the rules were changed by others on here to what they currently are. ..hey, if they dont get changed, they dont get changed, but from reading this post, the guys who pay the entry fees seem to like keeping everything the same except going to a 500 tree...or did i miss something???



Don,
I havn't ran it since 07 but this is my
I spoke out back then as well and asked for the 500 tree and no electronics at all. It started out as a street car type race, they changed the rules to get the car count up which I do understand. I'm with you, a 500 tree would be better and may help the car count even more. I ran the 10.0 in 06 and 07, I had alot of fun but knew I didn't have a change to win. I Qualified #2 at Columbus and #1 at 131 but I knew at 3470lbs on S/S leafs and foot braking it was just more time runs. At the time we spoke out back then some of wise guys on here said we need to change are cars to fit the class rules if we didn't like them.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/21/09 07:39 PM

Another thing i think that changed was in qualifing, several years ago at Norwalk i had one time trial in 10 flat(i honestly dont remember if all there was was one shot or if there was 2 and i had car problems. I went 9.98 on the brakes in the only qualifing shot i has, and wasnt allowed to compete because i was under 10 flat.
Now, several guys that i know of had both passes well under 10 flat and they still raced at 131...i have no problem with that, just wish stuff would remain a constant, and not change.

Anyhow, i have said my piece, i think it should be run on a 500 tree if you are going to let any door car run and allow delay boxes.
Having it any other way(in other words like it is now)is frankly a joke, and if my opinion rubs somebody the wrong way, it is what it is, and i am sorry for that.
But racing a 2400 pound chassis car with a delay box isnt fair, no matter how you cut it....and no, i aint changing my car to be like that.

I have raced for a long time, some good luck, more often bad luck, but the classic 10 flat shootout, as the rules currently are, is the only race i have ever been in where i know in my heart of hearts i have zero chance to win, because of the huge disparity of the cars.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 01:56 AM

Quote:

Another thing i think that changed was in qualifing, several years ago at Norwalk i had one time trial in 10 flat(i honestly dont remember if all there was was one shot or if there was 2 and i had car problems. I went 9.98 on the brakes in the only qualifing shot i has, and wasnt allowed to compete because i was under 10 flat.
Now, several guys that i know of had both passes well under 10 flat and they still raced at 131...i have no problem with that, just wish stuff would remain a constant, and not change.



Not tryin to be a pain but isn't change exactly what you are asking for?
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 01:56 AM

Quote:


I spoke out back then as well and asked for the 500 tree and no electronics at all.

...never mind... [post deleted]
Posted By: Pleaz

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 02:29 AM

I dont get the .400 tree. Im sure most people on here are bracket racers, all who race with the.500 flash. I was exited about this coming to monster mopar. But being a foot braker, unless its the .500 flash, ill just save my money. But i will be sure to watch.
Posted By: nhramark

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 02:52 AM

Quote:

I dont get the .400 tree. Im sure most people on here are bracket racers, all who race with the.500 flash. I was exited about this coming to monster mopar. But being a foot braker, unless its the .500 flash, ill just save my money. But i will be sure to watch.



Hopefully you are still excited to come to Monster Mopar. You can't enter the Ten-oh class anyway unless you are already entered in one of the main classes. (Super Pro, Pro, Street eliminator, etc.)

We have scheduled Ten-oh qualifying runs for Friday and Saturday, that's 3 or 4 extra time runs (including 1st round) for $25. Even if that's all you get out of it, you got your moneys worth.
Posted By: Pleaz

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 03:02 AM

I am definitly exited about monster mopar! I will be running pro there. The best mopar drag racing event in the country! Have not missed one since 93! You are right, the time trials alone are worth it.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 03:15 AM

I am in on the 10.0 class at Monster Mopar. Looks like a nice addition to an already great race.
I think the .500 tree will level the playing field but that won's stop me from running the class.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 02:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Another thing i think that changed was in qualifing, several years ago at Norwalk i had one time trial in 10 flat(i honestly dont remember if all there was was one shot or if there was 2 and i had car problems. I went 9.98 on the brakes in the only qualifing shot i has, and wasnt allowed to compete because i was under 10 flat.
Now, several guys that i know of had both passes well under 10 flat and they still raced at 131...i have no problem with that, just wish stuff would remain a constant, and not change.



Not tryin to be a pain but isn't change exactly what you are asking for?



Well...i prefer it to be like it was in the first place, no boxes and a 500 pro tree. So, IMO, it should never have been changed in the first place.

I like the 400 tree, and have raced on it a lot, but not against 2400 pound box cars, that makes it not as even handed.
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 05:25 PM

I suggest that we make it an 11.00 index class instead of 10.0 and run it on a .600 tree with no delay boxes allowed, no min weight, all power adders allowed. Oh yeah you are not allowed to run the class unless your car is capable of running 10.00 that way everyone can find out how difficult it is to slow their car down to run index regardless of what the tree is.
Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 10:26 PM

Guys Don't get stuck on the delay box. Taking the delay box out and going to .500 pro tree makes it unfair to the lite wt faster cars. Just going to .500 pro tree and leaving every thing else the same makes the class as fair as it will ever be. IMO
Posted By: Hunted Duck

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 11:12 PM

Quote:

The vote results will not start untill 2010 Norwalk will be .400 tree

So who makes the rules? CC events or you?
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 11:20 PM

Quote:

Guys Don't get stuck on the delay box. Taking the delay box out and going to .500 pro tree makes it unfair to the lite wt faster cars.

I don't believe that at all. This would make everyone hit the light by eye and brain coordiation instead of computer.

And the big thing is it will draw lots more entries since that is what most racers are used to. And isn't that the point?
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 11:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Guys Don't get stuck on the delay box. Taking the delay box out and going to .500 pro tree makes it unfair to the lite wt faster cars.

I don't believe that at all. This would make everyone hit the light by eye and brain coordiation instead of computer.

And the big thing is it will draw lots more entries since that is what most racers are used to. And isn't that the point?



So, let me get this straight. We wanna make things more competitive? We wanna even the playing field right? So we now wanna change the light to make it .500 which IMO caters to allowing a greater # of cars to go .00? on the tree with no need for delay devices. Correct? If that is the case then does that not create a disadvantage to a car like mine who can in no way not go red on a .500 tree, I don't even think that a 33x10.50x15 tire on front would give me enough rollout to stay green. I ask, how is this a fair solution? A delay box would now allow me to go .00? on the tree just like every other car in the class right? So why do we still act like a bunch of schoolyard bullies. I can agree to thinking a .500 tree is acceptable if you all can stop crying that a delay box is an unfair advantage, when all the delay box does is add the rollout that your car has built into it. Oh yeah I am pretty sure that the super class racing like super rod leaves on a .400 tree so it is not that far fetched to believe that your car running 9.70-10.10 ought to be able to cut a .400 light.
Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 11:41 PM

With the delay box you still have to let go of the button just like any trans brake car with out a box. If your late your late with or without a box. The only difference is how you adjust to get the the light you want. Without a box you change the car to get the lite you want within the limits of the car. The delay box does the same thing.
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 11:48 PM

Quote:

With the delay box you still have to let go of the button just like any trans brake car with out a box. If your late your late with or without a box. The only difference is how you adjust to get the the light you want. Without a box you change the car to get the lite you want within the limits of the car. The delay box does the same thing.


it is just more simple to electronically setup your rollout.
Posted By: 412 SB Duster

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/22/09 11:50 PM

I think some people think a delay box automatically means .00 lite
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 12:30 AM

Quote:

I think some people think a delay box automatically means .00 lite

412 SB Duster, I am right with you and Lonnie on your thinking,next thing someone will suggest a change to a Box 10.00 and a no box 10.00 race,,,and as far as a light car having an advantage, then ask Lonnie how my 3150# car does against his 2500# car, it's a drivers race any way you cut it, if your car will run the number then it's up to the driver to make it happen.
Posted By: nhramark

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 01:45 AM

Quote:

Taking the delay box out and going to .500 pro tree makes it unfair to the lite wt faster cars.

then does that not create a disadvantage to a car like mine who can in no way not go red on a .500 tree, I don't even think that a 33x10.50x15 tire on front would give me enough rollout to stay green. I ask, how is this a fair solution? A delay box would now allow me to go .00? on the tree just like every other car in the class right? So why do we still act like a bunch of schoolyard bullies. I can agree to thinking a .500 tree is acceptable if you all can stop crying that a delay box is an unfair advantage, when all the delay box does is add the rollout that your car has built into it.



Man, you are kidding right? I don't care what the rules are or what they are changed to, if changed at all. You've done very well in this class and I don't blame you for not wanting things changed, but........

"does that not create a disadvantage to a car like mine who can in no way not go red on a .500 tree"

NMCA Open Comp is run on a .500 tree - no delay box. There are plenty of light cars there that are faster than yours who run that class without red lighting.


"I can agree to thinking a .500 tree is acceptable if you all can stop crying that a delay box is an unfair advantage"

Did you really say that? The only reason a delay box wasn't an advantage on a .400 tree is because most high 9, low 10 second bracket cars couldn't possibly red light on that tree. ANY OTHER TIME you pit box cars against no box cars, the delay box guys gain a big advantage.




I'm just a neutral 3rd party here. It's been interesting reading some of the responses, but those arguments are just not realistic. Especially coming from someone with as much racing experience as you seem to have.
Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 01:58 AM

My response was quite simply put, on a .500 tree there is no way I can add enough rollout to stay green, unless I were to add 30" tall tires and throw some 500 plus pounds in the car, not gonna happen, I'll just stop running the class and I won't cry about it. However if you think it is not an advantage to those bottom bulb racers who are already set up for a .500 full tree bottom amber flash then you my friend are insane. Again I am sure that I could make my car react without the delay box(rollout box) to hit the tree, but not in a feasible way to switch between that and bracket mode. It is funny how things have gotten misinterpreted. I said that I was okay with going to .500 tree, it does not bother me, anyone that knows me at the track knows that I am a huge advocate for close races. I get very little satisfaction out of non close races, and was very congratulatory of Pat Norton for the butt kicking he laid on me at Martin. I don't see there being a easy equalizer for the heavy cars to cut a .400 tree, but if they go to .500 it will be extremely easy for them to go .00 to .01 and an easy equalizer for the light weight cars is to allow the rollout box to make them leave no different than the heavy cars. Lets party, lets everyone get off the line with .00 lights and see what happens at the stripe, makes no difference to me. And yes I was being sarcastic about the Super Gas cars since they all seem to be running 150mph and are capable of launching under 1.24 60'.

Please don't take all my comments out of context
Posted By: 1BadLiLCharger

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 02:31 AM

Lonnie, get the Biondo button and you wouldn't need the delay box. Use the full travel of the button and you'll be fine. I'm thinking that .100 difference will be the fact that we can't see the tree coming down and you won't react as quick to the 3 yellows coming on at the same time, so between that and the longer traveling button, we'd be fine.
Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 07/23/09 02:52 AM

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 03:15 AM

the advantage a light car like you have lonnie is that it reacts way quicker and is going to 60 foot better than the typical 10 flat car like mine.

how many pro stock guys go red racing 2350 pound cars on a 400 tree ?

its way easier to judge a race getting out on everybody than it is being behind,that isnt a big secret coming. out of the gate.a light car is going to move quicker, and 60 foot way better..my car would go mid 1.20's if it weighed even 2800-2900 pounds

i think you are a great friver and would do good no matter the rules, but its insanely silly to think guys dont have one hand tied bhind their backs going to the line in a heavy car without a box,on a 400 tree

how many nhra 9.90 class cars do you see without a box that weigh over 3000 pounds..none, they know they would never win with that handicap, good driver or not.

i really guess i dont care about the weight of all the cars, or even a delay box(although other 10 flat races i have ever been in dont allow boxes and have minimum weights)the reason is beacuse they want it to be fair for everybody so they get good car counts.

i say go 500 tree, lets give everybody a swing at a 00 light that can hit the tree and let the driver, not the car and electronics decide it.

thinking any other way is flat out disingenious,you know it and i know it...

nhra mark hit the nail on the head in his post.
Posted By: nhramark

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 03:40 AM

Quote:

Please don't take all my comments out of context



I did not take any of your comments out of context. I acknowledged that your last point may have been tongue in cheek, and I have edited that out of my post. I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, so please don't take it that way.

I just don't agree that you couldn't make your car launch on a .500 tree without a box. Thing is though, on that tree MOST of the cars could red light.

Right now though I can almost see John Cope ripping his hair out. He and I put together the wheelstander class at the Nats one year. That was a good idea on paper, but hard to regulate.

John put the ten-oh class together because it was simple.

Pro tree
10.00 index
low entry/ small payout
FUN
NO HEADACHES

I hope you guys figure it out before it gets ruined.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 03:52 AM

ok first off I didnt read the WHOLE thing so excuse me if this has already been stated.

I just dont get how light cars or delay boxes or anything have an effect on this race. You are allowed to deep stage right? if so why cant the "less advantaged" cars just deepstage and cut a light?

I think the rules should be left alone... its a great class with more and more cars every event

Casey
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/23/09 10:53 PM

Quote:


Quote:

Hopefully that pot stirring guy means you said this tongue in cheek. 9.90 super rod/super gas cars are high dollar, high horsepower, purpose built for that class and have little in common with a typical bracket car that would run this ten-oh class.





Not all of them...


I think that what is missed here...from a bystanders viewpoint. ...is that some of these cars in this class

A...can't run the #
B...can't cut a light on a .400

If I were interested in doing this..I would concentrate on A&B....not on changing the rules on a yearly basis. There are some easy things that some of the guys can do to get closer to a .400 and although it's not always as easy finding a couple of tenths of ET can be done also.....

well said
Posted By: SnakeEisz67

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/24/09 03:02 AM

"Right now though I can almost see John Cope ripping his hair out."


Was thinking same thing. If this becomes too much of a pain why would anyone want to deal with it? Valid points have been made. I'm sure John & Eddie are aware of them. Must this be to death?
Posted By: CRT

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/24/09 02:56 PM

Well, I still have all my hair, and if the vote at Norwalk goes .500s tree, I am ok with that.
It would be nice if all the CRT 10.Os have the same rules, this year the 10.O will be at Monster Mopar, and I am going to work on getting Mop Nats for 2010. Yes at times it can be a pain, but I feel it worth it. For the most part, all us 10.O racers have fun, and are good buddies. In the end I would like to see the 10.O grow in car count, and everybody have fun racing.
Posted By: eddie_ccevents

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/24/09 03:02 PM

I still got my hair. What the kids have left that is.
Posted By: CRT

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/24/09 03:03 PM

Hehehe
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Classic events 10 flat shootout thoughts - 07/24/09 03:25 PM

Without a delay box, all you have to do is time yourself with your brain to cut a light. That is what all the no-box and footbrake racers have to do. A slow car can't be made to react quicker by the driver because that would require seeing the light before it came on.

Or you could mechanically setup your car to react 0.500 (like all the no-box cars do), and when you race Super Pro, put the box back in with the appropriate delay (ie if you put .110 in now, put .010 in with the car setup for .500 instead of .400. The box is adjusting the final/total reaction time you see on the timeslip. Rollout is geometry, not time.

The bottom line is you can do it, it is just harder without a delay box. And that is the delay box advantage, difficulty not "possible or not"

I agree this is a fun class, and I hope everybody realizes that. My points are intended to get more cars to enter by giving them a chance to cut the same light as the next racer. And more bracket cars can cut 0.500 than 0.400.
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