ignition overboard.

Can you go overboard on ignition? I'm presently running a digital 6 MSD box. Thinking of up grading to a 7 box is it worth it or over kill?
Like fuel system they say you can never go to big on fuel that's control by a regular.
Like to hear your thoughts on this
The car is a strip only car.....THX.

I think its kind of like fuel octane, once you have enough, your have enough and adding more won't do any good. But how do you know if you have enough without trying more? lol

My thoughts are hotter spark cleaner combustion with the ability to kind of grow into future upgrades with say a power adder. Those digital 7 box does so much it will be a learning curve for me.

Have you considered a grid ? They appear to have excellent features that would work well with power adders.

Yes, upgrade it. Those 6 boxes are a joke.

Que all the guys running 4 second 1/4 times with a 1980 6 box. I stand by what I’ve said. A 7 should be the MINIMUM ignition on most anything.

If you are really serious about an upgrade, go all the way and get the Grid. Pretty impressive and will be the last ignition you will ever need.

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x2. Where it will benefit is when the tune is off a little and/or you're exceeding the capability of the ignition + plug gap with cylinder pressure.

If your happy with what you have now and don't plan on adding more power later use what you got
Are you aware that when MSD brought out the digital 6 boxes, they had a lot of failures do to some of the internal components failing
I have bought and raced with the bigger MSD race boxes starting with the 404 series boxes back in 1974 or so and then switching to the 7 boxes later, I had one MSD7C box fail at the race's years ago
I did kill one race box mounted on the Iner fenderwell in the engine compartment by flooding it with water while cleaning up the engine compartment
MSD fix it with no charge
As far as the MSD grid and ignition box needed to go with it I have heard they are awesome
I bought one, MSD grid, years ago and haven't use it yet I did call MSD to see which MSD ignition boxes it would work with and which boxes it wouldn't work on, they said it would work on all the 7 series race boxes I own back then

Those new 7 digital does a lot data logging, cylinder individual cylinder timing etc.This MSD 6 box has been in the car for 15-20 years now (And it's been pretty reliable so far) so if i decide for an upgrade I'm hoping to get another 15-20 out of it...Lol......But seriously I'm looking to upgrade the drivetrain (Boost) someday and just thinking maybe now is the time for an upgrade.

As far as the MSD grid and ignition box needed to go with it I have heard they are awesome up
Don't know a lot about the grid but i need to do some research on that

The grid does data logging and comes with it's own s/ware. It also connects to a Racepak. It will do Individual cylinder timing, traction control (slew rate), O2 and it can be adjustable from the drivers seat, you just need the appropriate add on module. Thw whole system is basically a 7 series system with optional extra's, I'm pretty impressed with mine

As long as you can light the mixture, a hotter spark will not increase HP. Cylinder pressure and rpm levels determine the amount of energy to jump the gap on a plug. You have to ionize the air between the gap to build a spark. An MSD digital 6 box will fire most normally aspirated engines if it is working correctly. Supercharged turbo etc. may need more spark. Just because OEM engines use big plug gaps, does not mean performance engines need to do so as well. .030 to .035 is all that is needed, leave the .060 gaps for your daily driver. The next thing is all the other stuff some of the boxes do. Electronic control of ignition timing is a very good thing in my opinion for a performance engine, as well as data logging capability, you can't make good tuning decisions unless you have good info to make them with. If it is a drag only car and you are going to spend the money something like the grid would be my choice, just because of all the other stuff it can do besides spark the plug.

So let the box match your performance level and wallet.

This ^^^^^^ assumes all is well in the combustion chamber. Sorry but it’s not. You can’t have too much ignition. I’ve tested it far too much to say it doesn’t. I have an engine on the dyno right now and once it’s sorted out I’m going to change to a 7 box. I’m betting it picks up power everywhere over the 6. We will see.

Please keep us in the loop on that.......

Hey Cab you mention the 404 box sometimes in these ignition topics. I picked an old 404BC at a swap meet about 25-30 years ago and it made my car run strong and very crisp with instant throttle response. I was very sad when it died idling in the driveway one day and I found out MSD doesn't service this unit anymore.

Gus

If the 7 makes more power than the 6 then it did not have enough spark. Have you ever run an ignition scope with your engines on the dyno? By looking at the burn time, you can see if it has enough spark. I have seen on my dyno that a cheap ignition module in a HEI, will drop 20HP really fast. But again watch the spark KV and the burn time and you will see why. Also many ignition boxes will retard the timing at higher RPM's and that is the reason for lost power not spark intensity.

Quick story, had a buddy years ago with a big block Camaro, 10 second car, just bought a Mallory unilite ignition system for it. Car made a good pass, second pass the plastic shutter wheel broke. My buddy was mad that his weekend was ruined. Bought a single points distributor from the swap meet also going on at the event. Used the Mallory coil, went into town got a new set of points, car ran just the same. My buddy could not believe it.

If you decide to buy a Grid...buy 2 so you can swap it out WHEN it fails for no apparent reason. Everyone I know that has one has a spare in the trailer. That's some expensive stuff to have to keep a spare around.

I'll stick w/ my dinosaur 6AL. If I ever "upgrade" again, it'll be to an old 7AL-3, or something similar, just to see if the 7 is worth any power. The only time I've killed an old analog box was when I tried to crank it w/ a nearly dead battery.

If you want to add data logging, and you want to eventually add boost. Buy an EFI system and use just the ignition side of it. Data logging like crazy built in, precise ignition control etc. I would do that and run 8 coils.

I always preach the Megasquirt stuff because it is cheap and mine has been rock solid reliable for 7 years now. I have had to replace one of my salvage yard GM trucks coils in that time frame. It is easily the best money I have ever spent on my car.

What drove me down the EFI road was learning to much about carbs and not liking the process of fine tuning them for the road. The second reason was all of my MSD stuff(and it was old) started to fail, I had a coil(that wasn't old) leave me on the side of the road, a digital 6 box literally go up in smoke and leave me on the side of the road, and a digital 6 box that misfired consistently but always tested good. Now the only MSD product I have is the bracket that holds my crank sensor. I have been on the side of the road for other reasons since then but nothing ignition related!

Uhh, yeah I have had a scope hooked up to the dyno. And my distributor machine. And I will again.

There is a flaw in your anecdote. Just because your buddy’s car ran the same on points means little. Maybe his chassis was a sponge? Who knows. The other issue is you might gain 8, 10 or 12 HP with an ignition upgrade. The sad fact is most guys aren’t good enough drivers to show a change in MPH with that little gain.

FWIW I have three cars with MSD Grids in them, there is also one in the heads up car. We have only had ONE fail in all the years using them and that was from some welding for a front bump steer kit hit the crank trigger pickup wire and fried it. Otherwise they have been trouble free and one of them is on its 7th year in the dragster

Also many ignition boxes will retard the timing at higher RPM's and that is the reason for lost power not spark intensity.


Is this common with MSD's or you are talking about your cheaper systems Crane/Mallory boxes never herd before

If you want to add data logging, and you want to eventually add boost. Buy an EFI system and use just the ignition side of it. Data logging like crazy built in, precise ignition control etc. I would do that and run 8 coils.




I know of a guy that has the Holley system in place now and he data logs though it.And he's preparing to go plug on coil setup.

It's easy enough to dial back in with a grid...IF it is an issue. I got a grid when they were fairly new (2016?) and used it with a crank trigger, 6AL using the "Legacy" connector. I upgraded to the proper grid amplifier (7 series) after about a season and have had no problems. I did rewire the car, prior to install. I hear lots of issues with ign / electronics are caused by poor and or old wiring.

When I switch to the early MSD race boxes, 404B and 404C, my hemi car started way better and idled way better than it had with the Mopar race chrome box with the blue heat sink and the Hayes,which later became knowns as Stinger ignitions, race boxes
Same thing later on using the 7 race boxes, I liked the MSD7AL2 races boxes the best, not the MSD7AL3 do to having one fail after 15 minutes running during a engine dyno test
I have two MSD7C boxes, one early and one later box, they are not the same looking
They both tested good when I got them several years back, probably use them on some of my future street cars

All ignition boxes retard. Doesn’t matter what name is on the box. And spark intensity does matter.

x2 on this as well. I haven't ever had an issue with the analog 6AL's. I have one of those plus the start/step retard module and it works great.

If I ever get to the point where I need additional ignition features I'd do what Clark suggested, move to something like a Megasquirt, Haltech or Holley EFI just to handle the timing side. The grid system looks great but they seem finicky.

It must happen with EFI systems as well. Mine has a "spark latency" setting that can be adjusted to compensate for this problem if you happen to have it.

Thanks gents ....lots of knowledge here, interesting opinion here.

Same here. Last 3 cars and current car have Grids. Also have a Grid in the boxes for my son's project car. I like it, but honestly, I like the Digital 7531 box I've used in the past. I have actually considered ripping it out and going backwards....LOL....to a 7531. But have never had an issue with any of the Grids. Had one in my street car with a lot of road time.

I’m sure it does. All electronics have a slew rate.

A whole lot of people don’t know this or check this, or are capable of checking this.
Most modern EFI control boxes address this with a comp table. Usually only happens with mag sensors.

No way I would spend the money on a Digital 7 when there are much better and reliable options out there, and your current ignition is working fine.

Others opinions have merit, but I see no reason to dive in half way.

with this statement but I'm in a position to upgrade my box at a decent price with room for growth ( more options) right now seeing the only thing that's different from my digital 6 is hotter mj 's (130 verse 190) and the data logging etc.

We picked up a little ET retarding the timing 2 degree's from 5000 to 7500RPM, from a 35 degree base, easy to do using a grid.
Theoretically, the older analogue Ignition units should have more of an issue with latency / propagation delay due to the components and the design used. Digital stuff is way quicker in this respect so intrinsically more accurate at maintaining a requested timing curve.
A hotter spark (more energy) helps at the top end as the primary / secondary coil field doesn't have time to drop to zero at high RPM (field collapse, de-saturation of the coil). In effect your spark gets weaker as the change of field is less, especially true if you have only one coil feeding multiple cylinders. it's physics, you can't get away from it, the square type coils suffer from this less than the canister types due to a more efficient design so I'm led to believe.
Just my 2 penneth, not wishing to start an argument here just a reasoned discussion

Thank you

Never seen anything gained by taking timing out in high gear on an NA car and have tried on a few different cars. The one thing I have seen that ALWAYS works is adding timing in lower gears to base in an NA car. It has always netted quicker ET's....


IMO the Grid is much more use friendly than the old 7530, 7531 and 75301 box, but otherwise the results are the same. Just sold my last two digital 7 boxes to fellow members here

It's possible had other issues, we went from a single 4 to a T/R and it wanted less timing. We had run the single 4 up to 38 Degrees max timing. Since it ran just as well / slightly better with less timing with the T/R we left it at that. Does seem to cruise better with more timing in the mid rpm range though

I know many years ago, John Hagen's Pro Stock car was pulling timing out in high gear. At the time he was running a couple MPH faster then Glidden. Glidden was the only one to figure it out, and asked John how much timing he was taking out? "I don't know what you're talking about Bob?" LOL.

Years ago, I once dropped the timing from 36* to 31*, to see if I could kill some ET. The car picked up over 1 mph, and went faster...

I bought one of those boxes from you Al. I know it fires the car up...

I've play with total ignition timing on iron headed BB years ago trying to slow them down as well as make them go as fast as I could, those motors like from 34 to 36 BTDC, not 33 or 37 BTDC

This is a totally valid and sensible point of view. Tested and proven. I assume based on a dyno tuned engine with an optimized timing map. It sort of proves that timing maps should be load based. A dyno is putting maximum load on the engine in determining maximum power output. It shows you only maximum load timing. Taking some of that load away (through gear selection) should require more timing.

Given a large majority of end users don’t have dyno tuned engines, or load based timing, it is easy to see how “high gear retarting” and “added timing in low gear” can be interchanged definitions based on your point of reference.

Regardless of your point of reference, load based timing is the best way of using the energy your engine is capable of making throughout the run.

This is another net positive for using efi to control timing.