650+hp build from a Stroker using a 400 block

Hi guys, got a friend with a 3700lb Chally who currently races in our NSS class with his 440, He's just bought a std. bore 400 block (3698630 400*8) and is looking to build a 650hp+ stroker.
The car has a good chassis going 1.54 60's@11.0's>11.1's@121 best. Caltracs etc., QA1 shocks etc.etc.. you get the picture. A built converter will also be acquired, goal is 10.40's>50's

So he has a pair of 300cfm@.600 Eddy heads currently which he was thinking of using for this 499>512 motor purely because of money and the lack of it. But that may change, TF heads are £4k to get them here. I think he's going to struggle some with those heads to get 650hp-ish on pump, going to take a big s/roller for that?
Only real parameters are V-power pump gas as its still driven on the street a bit. Looking at either a Scat or Eagle kit or ?
What say you guys who've been there and done that given the mentioned facts. Cam recommendations would be helpful, sft or s/roller specs, 10.9cr sounds like it would be max on V-power cam dependent of course.
thanks

We have a stroker combo that works really well in the B-bodies.....Even better in an A-body....

We use 440Source strokers and their girdle.....They make very good hp with even mild heads. With a set of good heads, they make excellent hp....One of our street/strip B-bodies runs 10.50-10.70 on they're 440/526 kit....I think is really awesome....We also have a ton of 400/512's running in A, & B bodies.....My last one made right around 800hp on good 93 octane....

We use Indy EZ1 heads fully ported with a good single plane intake and a 4105/1050 Profom carb.....I can also get you our cam info....We street them and race them...

Thanks, yes I would appreciate it if you give us a run down of your 400 stoker builds with cam info, pm if you prefer. Only thing we know currently is he will probably have to use his 300cfm+?@.600 Eddy heads and V-power fuel for minimal street. Money is tight with everything going up and shipping of course at silly prices so trying to do it as best as and do it with the right parts once. We both have an idea of what it takes to make that hp but not done it. It will be a 4150 carb thats used.

650 hp is easy with good heads. I've built several pump gas 470 engines with 11:1 compression that made over 700 hp. The Trick Flow 240 heads will do it right out of the box, Edelbrock heads will require some careful port work but it can be done. Check out the tech section of my website or watch the videos on my youtube channel.

I think I’m currently building what you’re asking for. My goal was 650 when I set out on this build, but most guys with experience are telling me I should be somewhere around 700. Fingers are crossed. Short story:

- 400 block @ .040 over
- 3.91 stroke / 6.70 rod / 1.322 ht flat top piston (basic 470 combo).
- 11:0:1 compression
- Trickflow 270 heads
- Indy 4150 intake / 1000cfm 4150
- Howards solid roller - 259* / 263* @ .050
- 1.6 rockers (yeilds .660 lift after lash)
- 1-7/8” / 3” headers.
- 9-1/2” converter (4200 flash)
- 4.56:1 gears / 30” radial tires.
- 3725 lb (in the beams) B Body.

That combo could hit 700 hp. The cam needs to be exactly what the TF heads want, they are pretty picky about cam timing. You'll also want to make sure the intake manifold is well matched to the heads. Port matching is required with the Indy intakes since out of the box they tend to be rather ragged in that area. A 400-3 intake with a Dominator would give you another 15 or 20 hp on the dyno but it might not go down the track any quicker. You'll just have to try it and see.

I had a 400/451 13;1 with home ported Indy SR heads & a Hughes 256@50 flat tappet cam & Std Holley 750 carb. That was good for 10.7 @127mph in my 3670lb E body on 3.9 rear gears.

Thanks, yes I've given him some links to your builds and the link to this thread, he may join in and participate if he finds time from working on the cars. Personally the only thing I'm not sure of are the heads, they are 72cc and a std. gskt is somewhat small and needs opening up at the pinch. I'm not sure of flow but heads are reputed to be ported by MCH cnc'd so around the 300-315cfm? mark@600.

The heads really seem to be a bit of a choke point to me@512ci, perhaps not, the right head would be TF270's but@4k to the UK is too much for his budget...we can pick a cam to suit but want to get things right first time, hence all the questions.

I hope Dwayne sees this and gives a recommend on either an SFT or s/roller from the spec below> or I'll pm.

So 10.9:1-ish for CR, thats where he is with current 440.
Eddy heads, 950>1050 4150 carb, TF/Indy Eddy intake?
3700lbs +/-, 3.91 gears/28" stiff wall Hoosiers
Will have a built converter, 4>5k stall?....motor will be on the dyno for choice+ cam dependent.
Runs C/tracs/mono's, QA1 shocks.
Will be street driven but only minimally.
He builds his own motor's and is competent, just not done anything like this prior.

Sounds similar to some combinations my Challenger's gone through in the past... 11.0s at 121... 10.5s at 126. My stuff's all stock-stroke 440; got no feedback on stroker combinations.

However, I wonder on occasion if my results apply to Joe Average cuz I'm in a location where there are a number of close-to-sea-level tracks and pretty optimum conditions in the spring & fall. In the summer here it's just hot & humid, so everything slows down a few tenths (at least mine do).

Is Santa Pod the UK's only dragstrip? What's the track elevation, and any idea what's typical of DA readings there?

https://airdensityonline.com/track-results/Santa_Pod_Raceway/

Baro is mostly high 29's>30's, doesn't get much above 2000 that often, mostly 16>1700's when warm

Its not the only dragstrip but the only one where TF can run 3.7>8's. Recently laid concrete track, supposedly the best if not 1 of the best tracks in europe.

In fact, I just built another one and its sitting at the shop as it needs rocker arms, push rods, and a carb....We typically run 10.7:1 compression to stay pump gas friendly.

The better the heads, the more HP....The Eddy heads fully ported flow about what an unported set of EZ1 heads do, but they should still make your goal of 650....I know this because one of my older 512's has a set of iron heads converted to MW ports with 2.14/1.81 valves, and in a street car with mufflers and 3.91 gear on radials we went 10.76 with it last week....

And really there lies the issue, using heads that are somewhat of a choke,in my opinion for engine size.... cam choice etc. will be important to get right. Trying to squeeze an honest 670hp= 10.30's@130 is not going to be easy@10.8>9:1 on pump and still be somewhere near street able, not sure what he's willing to put up with.
Only thing going for it will be the size of motor and the torque....this is the car by the way.

I'm throwing this out as my first thoughts...
- 505+"
- no more than 11.0 CR for pump gas
- open up Eddies to MW, even though I'm not sure how much that improves the choke point issue
- Indy SP 4150 intake port matched
- solid roller cam with "spring friendly" lobes that'll take 6800+ RPM (max RPM on big end?)
- 270 int / 275 exh 109 LSA on 105 ICL, .650+" lift
- "big" 4150 carb
- 2" headers (if not being used already w/ 440)

His 3.91 and 28" bias-ply tires are more suited to bigger cubes than my 4.10s and no-growth 275/60R15 radials which hit about 6800 at 126; I'm gonna be 7K+ if my MPH gets close to 130.

If he hits the lottery, a set of TF 270 heads. Otherwise, run what he's got already cuz it'll still be faster than his current 440.

Cheers Brad, that is what we were thinking along the lines of except opening up the eddy's, not sure enough material for that height wise, don't know if anyone's done that successfully without tubing the pushrod hole and opening the pinch on BB heads as no real need to do all that with other MW heads available unless he could do it all himself which I doubt he would want to.

We were talking around the .650" s/roller yesterday, just picking the right lobes so he won't have to go way over 600lbs open. Lots to think of, we don't want to just throw this together.

You can open up the gasket surface to MW, but not the full length of the port due to the pushrod location. Never done it myself and assume it's a lot of grinding for ??? results. I know Dwayne -- possibly others -- have posted pics of that type of work in the past, FWIW.

Best out-of-the-box standard-port 4150 intake IMO is the Trick Flow piece... IMO. Andy's used the low-deck version on his builds and my 650+ HP RB 452 build has the raised-deck version.

Your friend's performance goals are right in line with mine, too.

FWIW--My Super Gas car with 447 C.I. Low-Deck (.020 over 400 block)

Unported Victor heads, compression around 14 to 1
850 DP Holley carb
Victor 383 intake manifold
Step headers 2" to 2-1/8"
Comp Roller Cam 23-999-3

At sea level tracks would run 154 MPH. Car with me and ballast aboard weighs 2250. I think that computes to 643 HP.

i had a low deck.540 with sr heads and tunnel ram with 2 1050s,750 roller cam was a bad mf

Ok let me put it this way, If you have a big motor say 512ci and you put a std port head on it thats somewhat restrictive which is what we will have in my opinion how do you make 650>700 on pump. Its either big comp/big s/roller and rpm. None of those will be there with a max of 11:1, and 3.91 gears apart from a big cam, have I answered my own question?.....

On my 440, I had a big sft cam with restrictive stock 906 heads, put same but ported BV heads on it and it picked up .5 and 6mph with no other changes, thats understandable, this build won't have the option of a better head, at least not for now so if there is around a 50hp difference if not more from his std. port 300cfm head to an MW head@350cfm+ as I see it how would you compensate for that given the comp and rpm limits of this build or is it impossible because at the end of the day the heads and intake system are where the power is.

You take those heads, and have them opened to MW size....And fill in the holes with JB weld....That's what's on our Dart..906's I think, with a 2.14/1.81 valves...Runs 10.76....

Random thoughts here, but might help putting some context around your friend's build. Like I mentioned above, we might be talking similar track conditions in many cases, so perhaps my numbers aren't too far off for comparison.

With ported OEM iron heads, pump-gas CR, and moderate sft cam (254 at .050), it was a low 11-sec (11.0) car in good conditions... 3700+ #s... probably 540-550 HP

With Dwayne's ported standard Stage VI heads (310 cfm), about a 10-degree bigger sft cam, 10.7 CR, and I don't remember what else, in really good conditions it got into the 10.5s... 3750#... probably 610 HP for that combination; even under noticeably crappier conditions, it was still going 10.7-10.8s

Other factors
- I always run radials, so that's a tenth and about 1 MPH improvement over bias-plies
- my 9.5" converter is pretty efficient at about 8% slippage
- I had a lot of testing to get stuff dialed in... got the 60s down to 1.45-1.47

I have a hard time imagining how 500" -- even with "small" heads -- running comparable compression and a suitable sold roller wouldn't out perform a 600+ HP 440. Sure sounds like a solid mid-10s combination to me.

Standard port heads will support 650 to 700 hp on a pump gas short block but everything has to be dialed in. The heads need to be very good. TF240 heads right out of the box will do it, I do not know if your Edelbrock heads are that good or not. You'll need to have them looked at by an expert to see how good they are.

Generally speaking it's doable to run 10.4 / 10.5 with those general parts at near sea-level conditions. I'd prob do a 511" so compression is easy with a shelf flat top and that will allow a big cam with 'easy' lobes. MW port opening and Intake will help as well as a 4500 carb.

if the heads are actually ported by Modern Cylinder Head then they should be close to the TF240 heads.

And good info again, I agree, even with the small heads 10.8 comp and a .650-ish s/roller and 500ci it should make that 650hp which@3700+ would put us into the 10.40's>50's brkt.@128-ish. I was hoping we could pull a few tricks out the bag to make up for those heads and increase hp, intake work etc. etc., cam specs etc., and was hoping someone could chime in with some of those tricks.

And thats exactly where we are with the 440 where you were Brad, around 540hp but we already have the heads but only a .580" sft cam with 1.6 rockers, If it wasn't for the fact that the motor needs a refresh and doing away with those 6pk rods and KB pistons, a s/roller and perhaps another carb could've put us close to 10.50's, it does make sense to build a stroker now.

I guess not many if anyone has built a 500 stroker with CNC Eddy heads, but some have with TF240's which are comparable. I watched the Engine power 512 build with 240's on pump gas with a .640/670 hyd. roller and it only made 617 on the dyno with efi and 631 with a carb, somewhat disappointing I thought. It was a bolt on parts effort I know so perhaps with intake work etc. it would've made more, Other MW headed dyno pulls are in the 700hp range which says it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxTSrkp75ik

Just a quick update here, Eagle 4.150 stoker kit being ordered, probably TF270's now as selling parts off to pay for it, in region of a .660 s/roller 260-265@.050-ish and with 1.6's .704" and around 10.9:1cr, Indy intake more than likely as not much choice elsewhere, will use current good 830cfm DP for now until money permits a Thumper 1050-ish 4150 which I'm trying to persuade him onto, not cheap for 1>2 10ths, maybe more?, buy the best is my moto and opinion, maybe even a Dominator at some stage, so hopefully it will touch the 700hp mark on the dyno and with a bit of weight loss a 9 sec car could be the order of the day. Now thats worth all the expense in my opinion, from 11.1's>9.90's?

Managed to buy a Dana 60 at a good price with 4.56's strange shafts and 1350 u which will be changed to 4.10's to run with 28' hoosiers, hopefully won't have to change carriers?. And either an ATI/Dynamic or similar good co. will be used for a built verter, just hope he won't go shy on a 5k-ish stall. Things are moving on>>>
thanks for the replies guys.

Just a tip.
Get Jim to install "Pro" gears rather than street gears

I'll try, not sure if he's got that in mind, if your gonna do it I guess................by the way what converter u run Tig, tight 5k?

It used to stall @ 5200, then we changed rear gears from 4:10's to 3.73, now it stalls at 6000 ??? It was originally built by ATi for our 528 mega block deal. Don't know if it's the 'box or converter, I will have a look at it before we are out with it again but pretty sure we have been blowing through the converter. We also had to change carriers (Detroit locker) our 4:10 street gear (which we smashed) was a on carrier for thick gears (the pro gears are normally thin) you can use a spacer with the 4:10 and down carrier but not the other way round, it's also getting hard to find Dana 60 parts DAMHIK AND you can get 4:10 ratio's with thick and thin crown wheels.

The one in my RB 452 is 265/265 @ .050"; ^^^ seems small to me for another 50 cubes

And to me as well but I'm trying to be street sensible, not one of my strong points. I ran the .590 271@.050 in my street 340 Cuda and didn't think it was wild at all and a .650"-290@.050 sft in the all iron 440 race only car, thought that was quite a mild cam as well tbh! I'm hoping he will listen to my suggestion to go with 1.6 rockers, a .660-ish s/roller with easy lobes for .704" less lash then those 270's will be used better. AndyF mentioned the 270's require a specific cam. He'll have to look into his build again to pick the right cam.

Perhaps Dwayne could chime in if he sees this with a recommendation now we know most of the spec?

In my 470 the 270 cam was too big. The engine made more torque and more HP with a smaller 264/268 Comp roller that Dwayne picked. The TF heads have really good flow numbers at low lift and if the cam is too big the power will drop since the intake charge gets blown out the exhaust. We made 780 hp with that 264/268 cam. OP is only looking for 650+ power so I'd stick with something really close to that 264/268 that I got from Dwayne.

>>>.hoping for 700 now with those 270's, may even get a touch more?

Best power number we saw with my pump gas 470 was 780 hp. But that was with a Wilson ported intake and a Dominator. You won't get close to that with an as cast Indy intake and a 4150 carb. But you could see 725 hp with the correct camshaft, correct headers and a port matched intake.

I think the port matched intake he will do as he did his M1 for the Eddy heads on the 440. What would you say a correct camshaft would be, similar to your 264/268 but it won't have the lift, I can try and persuade him to go 1.6 rkrs on a ..660" roller to .704" but think I'm going to be hard pressed to get him to accept that, the street mentality beckons too much still I think although he's up for the race part of it more recently......2" hdrs will be the ones he should have more space in an E body for that with a low deck. 725hp would be ok, lose 100lb or so and we got a 9 sec "street" car, now thats worth spending the money on.

If the car is still going to see street use, lobes like Andy's 264/268 are too aggressive. And milder lobes with that duration won't have the same high-lift area.

Bill Jenkins' book from the '70s talked about adding or subtracting about 4 degrees duration for each 25-30 ci displacement change to keep the same general power range. That''s why I thought of my endurance roller (265 at .050', .650") and figured for another 50 cubes it would need to be bumped up to 270+ w/ the same lobe family. Adding more rocker ratio doesn't necessarily work the same way, since it changes the acceleration rates and messes with the overlap triangle, too.

Regardless, simply more things to consider...

You know something, I think I should take Dwayne's advice when I was crewing with my mate with the 589ci RR and discussing about it. Don't get too involved it'll hurt your head. My buddy does listen and learns BUT, I think its best if I leave things until I get asked something for my own sanity. I love the Tech side but again its best to let it lie I think for now.
I thank you all for your input.

Before settling on a RR, might be worth reading through Andy’s rocker ratio tests on the TF heads.

Yes and your correct actually, hardly worth anything, I remember reading it some time ago. I suggested 1.6 rockers for his 440 previously and he went and did it and said it picked up but thats a whole different combo with a mild sft cam and a 3500 hughes verter. Put the rockers on and bought a used TCI verter that flashes to around 4800 and picked up .5 for not a lot of $$$.

What is the life span of this low deck assuming you shift below 7000 Andy??

My 517 C.I. pump gas 400 stroker motor ended up making 727 HP. at 7300 RPM with a set of Indy SR M.W. port heads and an Indy 400-3 intake with old Holley List 9375 Dominator non ultra carb on Oregon 91 octane pump swill It ran a best of 9.993 at 134.7 MPH corked up with the air cleaner on with me in the car weighing 3450 Lbs. on M/T 31x13x15 E.T. Street bias tires: boogie:
The camshaft was a Comp Cams custom solid roller made for someone else that I bought hoping and thinking it would work okay in that motor, it was 260 degrees @.050 on the intake lobes with .420 lobe lift and the exhaust was 266 @.050 with .409 lobe lift ground on a 108 LSA installed at 106 to 107 intake lobe center ( I degree all my cams at .050,.100 and .200 before and after max lobe lift, just to see how good the lobes are )
I ended up using a set of Harland sharp roller lifters that check out to be 1.65 ratio at the valve retainers, they were sold to me by them as 1.60 ratio. I check every valve for lift to make sure the rockers are all good
I put hundreds of 1/8 and 1/4 mile passes on that car as well as over 3000 street miles having a lot of fun smoking the tries on the street almost at will: hammer: devil:

Tell you when we break one....Still have one running & racing since 2010.....Went 10.76 a couple weeks ago with it in a street car.

And here is a picture of the newest 400/512 I am building....

Good post Cab, your usual good info......so 517ci, 672/654 260/266@.050, 3450lbs/134.5mph = 700fwhp according to my calcs but whatever. As I said prior I'm taking a back seat on this now. I can only suggest things from my limited knowledge on strokers from what I've learned from here and elsewhere as I've not been there and actually done it so you speak to people who have, hence the post and questions.

So I gave him the link to this thread right at the start and he could've asked questions himself if he wanted to, he's a knowledgeable guy but he's not built a more race oriented stroker motor before.

thanks all.