Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI

Anyone watch it? Interesting results. Has me wondering if the cams should have shared the same lift but otherwise been customized to suite each engine best.

How about a link to it so we can watch it

No but thanks for the heads up, I will check it out when I get a chance.

It's been done before so I wonder what twists and turns they threw in.

For free? Not happening. Need to pay Motor Trend. Maybe in a couple years they will let you watch it for free.

Yeah, I've seen some bootleg episodes show up on youtube, but they seem few and far between. This is my first year subscribing, not the worst $24 I've spent.

We have Amazon Prime and the first few episodes were free. Not particularly useful in the real world, IMHO, but entertaining. Then, up jumped the devil, for a small amount of filthy lucre per month you can continue viewing. Nope. Ain't worth it. Ain't gonna happen.

It is annoying. Pay for cable, amazon prime, apple TV, then everything I want to watch has an additional fee

And then, at least with cable, have a bunch of the viewing time you paid for taken up by commercials. But then again, some of them are more entertaining than the actual programming.

I ain't paying to watch it but I would throw out there that if the hemi was 440 CID and the 6 pack was a 426 CID we would never have a discussion about witch one made more power or was faster, slide 440CID under the hemi heads and the hemi then compare, nobody ever compares a 426 street wedge to a hemi.

It was too easy to not do it, here.
Wife cut the cable b/c it was her bill and nobody was even watching it.
Cranked up the internet speed/needed it working from home.
Went to a streaming TV which also liked the higher speed internet, and then motor trend had the $1 per month sale....that
seemed okay, so why not. That's a whole lot less than what I used to spend on magazines.

It's been awhile since they did that, and the deal is turned off for now.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/get-best-deal-ever-stream-motortrend-1-month/

I've built a bunch of BB and 426 Hemi motors over the last 40 yrs and I'm one of the unlucky ones that can get more HP per C.I. out of a wedge motor with good heads like ported 440-1 or B1 heads than I can get from a 426 type hemiriod motor with aluminum Stage V ported heads and similar cam, C.I. and combustion ratios And for a lot less money also
Long live BB Mopar wedges

Pretty much agree with you there CAB--An equally built Wedge will usually outperform a HEMI at least IME. Not a real big Hemi fan here other than looks and hype I don't find them worth it. J.Rob

I just finished it and it was very interesting!

It's the same thing that had been said for years.

You have to spin the HEMI hard to get it to run. Not so much with the 440 as it makes tons more low end torque.

Here is a screenshot of the runs overlaid. Red is 440, black is Hemi.

Very interesting to see the dyno data, but they brought up a good question, how would each motor do in the same car. I'd like to drive it both ways and find out.

Actually a 426 max wedge v/s hemi would be an interesting shootout. I'd like to see a small block vs gen 3 hemi shootout - maybe what can be built for 5k. Small block stroker vs 6.4 would be interesting as well.

You can build a 440 to have more power than a Hemi, then try to sell either. Buyers are standing in line to pay big bucks for the Hemi and you have to give away the wedge, facts of life folks.
One other thing, I haven’t seen any 68 440 Darts or Cudas in Super Stock trim run as fast as the Hemi ones yet.

Hemi heads like RPM or CID to do their thing. Throw another 100 cubic inches at the Hemi heads and they shine. Comparing wedge to Hemi heads is basically comparing station wagon heads to race car heads. And the results are just about what you would expect. In stock form the wedge heads have tons of low end but run out of steam pretty quick. While the race heads loose down low, but then they pull and pull and pull. We've known this for 50+ years.

But the big downsides of expense and various assembly difficulties keep the Hemis down.

And if you start comparing aftermarket heads, the Hemi is even more the King. But still overly expensive and unnecessarily complicated.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Why would the cams be even remotely similar?

Here's a bunch of bootleg roadkill garage episodes, watch before they get deleted

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpYJcKzEJqsy_nQX-VKDjSg

To demonstrate the difference in capability between head designs?

I just saw this video.

I have two takeaways:

1: At least we are looking at Chrysler engines instead of Chevies

2: This confirms what I have heard over many years of shop talk: the hemi turns on when other engine designs turn off. Not really surprising, but who builds stock displacement engines anymore? Make both 500" strokers, current heads, cams to compliment each type of engine and let them go. I would be very interested to see those results.


I don't have cable or satellite tv so the 5 bucks a month I spend on Motor Trend is worth it to me. It is far from perfect but I do enjoy many of the shows that are featured. Roadkill Garage is worth the price of admission on it's own.

5 K don't buy much these days.
I just finished a 408 stroker and with machining , I am well over that.
I also have a 405 inch R-3 / W-9 and I have well over that in the heads.

I just did

Fair enough lol. What did you build?

The 1971 440 Six Pack is going back in his 1971 Charger R/T , his first car

The Mopar Performance 426 Hemi is going in a AMC Gremlin on a future episode of roadkill

I was thinking about a 5.9 with a set of pistons, cam, and heads, vs 5.7 with something similar as far as cam and compression goes. Regular guy street stuff, not racing engines.

I did not know that Stage V made a dual plane? Somehow I suspect that a stock intake would have made more torque.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0310-hemi-426-crate-engine-dyno-test/

This is an article from Dulcich on Westechs dyno from 20 years ago. The otherwise stock 465 HP crate motor he used made WAY more low end torque with more cam with the crate motor intake manifold. How much do you want to bet its actually the same crate engine?

Wedge motor was a successful transition of a passenger car engine design adapted to racing. Hemi was a successful transition of a race car engine design adapted to passenger car use. Many OEM heads can support 500hp. The iron OEM hemi head shines when tasked to make far FAR beyond that level. Hemi is cool and legendary but If I could afford one run Id let those big ole heads shine with big cubes and high RPM.

what were the cams in the motors for the dyno test comparison?

They are having a Father's Day sale, $36 a year. Well worth it.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/motortrend-app-fathers-day-gifts/

Hydraulic rollers. Duration was 236° @ .050 intake, 241 @ .050 exhaust. Lift was .549 intake, .541 exhaust with 108° lobe separation.

let se, a single four barrel with stock smog heads versus two four barrels on a race motor, I wonder why the hemi does better in those cars
for those that don't know about the stock hemiroid valve train take a real hard look at them, they SUCK

Deal only available in the US. Bummer.

Exactly what I mean, no smog motor headed 440 even with the 6 Pac will run like a Hemi unless you restrict the Hemi (with hdydrolic cam) to run in the same rpm range. Build the 440 just like the race Hemi using the 906 head with a sheet metal intake (same mods as the S/S) no way you’re getting 8-900 HP out of that 440. First off those 906s will choke off at 6800 or less. Below the head, the 440 and 426 are the same, the head and above separates the men from the boys. Once the aftermarket wedge heads start flowing in the Hemi range then and only then will the engines match up.

If you get a VPN you can be a US customer as well.

Sorry I don't know any other way to say this but If you increase the TQ per cube on the 426 to the same TQ per cube X 440 it is only down about 20lbs to the 440. The HP would also go up a little from the bigger bore unshrouding the valves more and the CID increase. Another way to look at it is you can always multiply TQ with gears but you can not multiply HP, what the engine makes is what it makes. In the same car with either cubic inch equal or gearing adjusted for the lower CID the hemi will win.

In Chrysler, the hemi is the older engine by 7 years (1951 vs 1958), and the B/RB wedge is not a descendant of any hemi..
In general, the wedge (pushrods and rocker arms, closed chamber with quench, parallel valves tilted at an angle to the bore axis) only came into general use in 1949 (Cadillac and Olds, and still used today in LSX), but the Harley-Davidson hemi engines date to 1926 and every English bike mfg. had a hemi engine before WW2.

I've seen and built NHRA legal "stock" M.W. motors that will smoke a NHRA "stock" street Hemi motor
The ported 440-1 and a good set of B1 originals head will do that with ease on a similar prep wedge motor After all it comes down to the basics, how much air and fuel into the motor determines how much HP both motors will make

If you insure through Hagerty they give you motor trend for free.

MT jumped the shark years ago haven't watched any new content in 3 years.

Well to be fair to you, the answer to who builds stock displacement engines anymore is probably mostly no one.

I think many prefer a power curve focused on low/lower rpm.

I'm the opposite. I like short gearing and higher rpm, so kept stock crank, ported the heads, single plane intake, higher compression and solid roller.

Dana 60 is better than a 9inch…. Change my mind!

Had it for free for a year with Hagerty. Did they renew it so you can get another year? I never found a link or email on how to get another year free.

Can you subscribe at all? Some folks outside the U.S. cannot get it for any price.

I wish you all would open the boarder up and let the racers come see us.

Here's the spec's on that crane cam they used in that article. I run it too with a stage V single plane 2-4 manifold. Dyno pull needed to go up to at least 7500rpm.

I guess the outcome was as one could expect.
anyway it sucks not being able to watch it.

Hopefully you ran more valve spring pressure than what the cam card called for
There is no way I would run solid roller cam in a hemi with only 450 Lbs. open pressure, maybe a hydraulic roller, bot never a solid roller with that little pressure

Some details from the test

the 440 was 9.5:1 compression with 906 heads milled to reduce volume from 87cc to 83cc and a valve job back in 2001.
the 426 was 9:1 with standard iron crate motor heads as cast

On the Hemi, they claimed to be running Ray Barton's valvetrain setup reduced to 1.5 ratio rockers so actual valve lift would be similar

The 440 had the edelbrock six pack manifold
The 426 had a marine style dual plane with two Holleys

I think its important to point out that one engine was built down while the other had a bit of help to make the test more..."equal".

He said on the show that the engine came out of a car he had, never mentioned it being a crate engine.

They even showed the car on the show.

So glad you wedge guys had no say so when Chrysler decided to build the HEMI. Really could that wedge run 1 2 3 4 at Daytona in 64?

At the 7min mark onward he said it was a very early crate Hemi.

This thread did not go in any direction I had anticipated. So HEMI's are junk? Suddenly I'm a man without a country. Without the HEMI residing as the supreme power in the universe I have some soul searching to do.


Jokes aside. I wasn't planning to debate the merits of Motortrend on Demand.


More curious for opinions on cam specs. 549/541 lift seems healthy to me. Never having built or owned a HEMI can't say from experience but would make sense to me that it would need a different cam profile than a wedge at the same lift? Maybe I misunderstood what cams they actually used in the dyno session? Sounded like they were as identical as possible.

Indeed.

We still have time to stop all this Gen 3 Hemi nonsense and re-engineer a head that makes some power.

Like I mentioned earlier

The 440 - 6 came out of a 1971 Dodge Charger R/T many moons ago

Steve Dulchich first car he said - That was the car shown on the episode of Engine Masters

It will go back into the car he said after all these years at some point - He pulled the 440 - 6 out when he was a youngster , one of his first engines he rebuilt and played with



The 426 Hemi is a Mopar Performance Crate motor circa 1994/1995

It is going into a AMC Gremlin on a future episode of Roadkill

Mopar's first V-8 was a Hemi. The only reason they got away from that design was simple economics. When they needed a horsepower boost, they went back to that design. When they needed a modern V-8 to compete globally, they again turned to the Hemispherical combustion chamber. And today, it is the design of choice for the fastest and quickest vehicles on earth.

Does anyone here believe that the current crop of Demons, Hellcats, and Redeyes would be as fast/efficient with wedges rather than Hemis?

Our wedges are certainly great engines. But the hemispherical combustion chamber that allows for a better valve arrangement is simply much more efficient. And when taken to it's logical extremes, cannot be beat. That continues to be proven over and over again. Any mod or improvement to a wedge head can be trumped by modifications to a Hemi head. The only times that a wedge head wins is when a Hemi head is saddled with half measures.

Now, it is a fair argument that in many applications (actually most applications), the additional complexity and expense of the Hemi design is not worth the trouble given the level of performance being sought. But then the argument becomes performance bang-for-the-buck, not overall superiority. Which is essentially the same decision that Mopar came to in the late 50s.

I thought we were talking about the 440, I may have misunderstood.

i thought the GEN III hemi is not a "true" hemi ?

I'm not smart enough to explain why but I remember Monte Smith always mentioning the Hemi was best suited to boosted applications. For N/A or on spray, a canted valve style head with symmetric exhaust ports was the best option.

As far as I can tell it's the best of both worlds, the quench pads combined with the dome are Engineering brilliance.

It's because of the already "softened" chamber<<< I dislike that terminology--It's scalloped IMO. The HEMI has a factory scalloped chamber that widens the tuning window significantly under power adder applications--Basically the HEMI chamber is a slow burning chamber which is why when you add a second plug--things change so much. Hate to say it but a single plug wide open 170cc chamber is inefficient. J.Rob

Captain Obvious stuff on 440 vs 426 Hemi curves; been that way for 50 years. It's the heads; remember the air pump analogy...
They didn't do the Hemi any favors with 9.0:1 static CR; they like CR.
Heck, that's why the Hemi chamber was developed in the 1st place - power & reduced detonation on crap gas.
My 438" Hemi street motor, old-school Crower SFT with similar specs, was 10.8:1 and happy on pump 92.
490 ft/lbs, 540HP by 7000 and climbing, and not a radical thing to operate. Did need 4.10s but it was happy cruising at 3500.
Like the world's largest SBC, it was plenty adequate under 3500, but after that, impressive and tore through the tach.

MT isn't free with Hagerty any more, it's $3/month.
Engine Masters, the Roadkill & HRG stuff, and old episodes of TopGear (UK) are all I'm interested in, so still deciding...

This stupid kind of BS is what makes a test like this a joke. Obviously, a Hemi and a wedge like different cam profiles and will tolerate different compression levels. Using mods that are not optimized to the engine is ridiculous. Nobody interested in performance buys a hemi and kills the lift and drops the compression. Either test a pair of totally bone stock engines, or even better make changes to each that are optimized for that motor.

Thank you for the explanation, that makes complete sense. Also makes sense now as to why they added the 2nd plug and quench areas to the G3 head.

Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.

Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.

Agree 100%

Looks good Rich. I like the powder coated engine plate.

Thanks Jeff. I've had some good influences in that area (Chip and yourself come to mind)

The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI.

The Chrysler engineers could've easily put a 4.250 stroke in the Hemi engine from the factory. There is enough room for it and they had the technology available to them. I don't know if they just didn't think of it or maybe they thought better of it. That would've been a 482 at the stock bore size and it probably would've been a monster on the street back in the 70's.

I could imagine the smile on a insurance agents face in 1970 when you walked in and told him you just bought a new 482 Hemi Cuda.

I believe the NASCAR rules had a 7 liter limit in engine displacement. The Hemis big ports were designed for high RPM power on the race track.

both NHRA and NASCAR had a max 427 C.I. limit for production cars being raced back then Circa 1962,1963 era