NSS rule question

those who run in NSS : I know we are not allowed to run electronics , however, are we allowed to use Afr gauges and download the afr data for tuning?
thanks

From the NMCA rule book


ONBOARD DIAGNOSTICS\DATA RACORDERS
Onboard diagnostics and data recorders used to monitor and record parameters such as a driveshaft speed, acceleration, nitrous timing, chassis strain, and suspension travel etc., prohibited. Wide band oxygen sensors permitted. “Playback” tachometers permitted. Laptops prohibited in vehicle.

Doug

yea , I got that Dvw, I'm just wondering if i can download my afr data .
Doesn't say a laptop cannot be used is not in the car.
Doesn't say i cannot pull the data chip and take to trailer.
Doesn't say i cannot use bluetooth to transmit the data.
Just says we cannot have a laptop "in" the car and, i think thats really in relation to the context of "doing things to the car" via a laptop.

Interesting isn't it?

Weather is a big deal here , we can go from 700 ft to 3000 ft Da really quickly .

Contact Roger Conley at NMCA tech. But I believe no data recorders or laptops.
Doug

I have an LM2 and a reader in my car. I do record during a time trial but once racing starts I remove the card reader.

Thanks guys.
Local rule interpretation is same: can use prior to time trials / declaring - then no more .

Heck, you guys are way ahead of this old guy. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I had one.....I'd have to hunt Russ up to tell me what's happening!!!

Is the WBO2 for the in-car readouts only? Ideally I would want one in each primary to get a handle on the tuning. You would need some data acquisition system for that. I guess it could be dialed in at a prior race (non-NSS, bracket days), then removed for the NSS race. Those funky Indy intakes must have some odd fuel distributions.

Right there with you Steve... none of that fancy stuff here. Heck, don't even use a weather station.

Casey FJ

I see the same problem here as most venues: it's not the "local rule", it's what the guy you have to to talk to says the rule means.
News flash: subjective, unrecorded, volatile opinion is the OPPOSITE of rules.

I'm not a racer,,,,,,but if o/2 gauges are permitted a gopro on the cage could record the gauges.
What do I know,I'm justa tow truck driver

Who would have thought it? LOL Russ the Geek

Dave made me do it - I had to take classes from him too ====

My car is bare. But you saw what a new weather station did.
Doug

I like reading afr data, its very helpful in keeping on top on the tune during weather changes.
Once i have a car set up and both banks tuned, i really only have to read one side of the engine after that.
If its an engine i have taken to the dyno, same deal, only have to read one header tube after that.
I like looking at my data on a graph - i can see the accelerator pump hit and finish, see the high speed bleed /total fuel curve.

Guys and throwing weights in and out - i'm just tuning.

To me its also a safety issue. I don't like things going to lean at 13- 14 to 1 compression with a lot of ignition and tight clearences.

Just me i reckon.

Back in the day ( yea, i'm old) we didn't look for the Rule book to tell us what we couldn't do , we looked at it as- " cant do that, doesn't say we we cannot do this" and thats how innovation happened.
Everyone seems to complain about how NHRA keeps ruining the sport with too many rules, yet it seems people really want very limiting rules in most classes.
I simply saw the NSS rule as: You can have an AFR gauge so, one can get and use the data said gauge supplies, you just cannot use the things expressly denied and you cannot use a computer to "make changes " to the car via two way communications".

Rule has been clarified , as Boffin commented , though there does seem to be a consensus, so i will abide with the car i crew in NSS- no problem.

I understand people want to keep the "nostalgia" aspect , i really do "get it "- on the other hand, 500 inch strokers, disc brakes, msd, billet wheels, modern compound tires, cnc aluminum heads, rollerized trans etc all seem like pretty modern technology to me , so, i think its sometimes hard to determine what should be nostalgia and what isn't.

To me, reading afr is just a better way of reading plugs for carb/timing tuning just as stroking engines is a better way to get more power per weight of block or, aluminum heads a better way to get larger flow numbers.

I would like to add a practical matter however: As we see more and more pressure on Racing due to environmental issues, it would seem logical to me that we take the initiative to be as tightly/ cleanly tuned as possiible.
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a tight/clean tune ius a fast tune- i have a good deal of data to prove it and staying on it all day/night does, indeed, make a difference.
Tight tunes run cleaner - thus we could say we are doing our part, staying ahead of those that would like to attack us.

Wondering if Andy and Dewayne have thoughts on emissions and tuning windows?

However, rules are rules and I abide by ruled decisions .
I assure you, i will still get enough data when/where it is legal to keep my tuning windows pretty tight- grin.

Thanks for the help guys, i can see the rule interpretation seems pretty consistent so, i have absolutely nothing to complain about.
Once again, an old guy, gone a long, long time and just having a blast catching back up.
When i left, nostalgia was sand racing- grin.

Agreed Poly, but in this case the interpretation seems pretty consistent- i will abide.

Victory NSS there is no computer port or connection of any type allowed in the car. Any way to down load information of any type outside of play back tack is not allowed.

Thanks Sport.
Yep, i got good clarity on the rule interpretation and have several Afr gauge types so i will modify my approach to meet the current rules.

Sadly, it is my belief that will eventually have to be modified if we want to continue racing well into the future as we are going to see some sort of emissions requirements at some point.
Hopefully its not anytime soon.
Near as i can figure we are already running a lot cleaner than the sport did in the past just due to better ignitions, heads and carb metering .

That's right,
No weather station
No race pack
No playback tach
No oxy sensors
No Damn laptop
No fancy multi chip programmable ignition box

Just a gas pedal, brake pedal, great driver and an old man tuning car.
REAL Super Stock Race Racers......

Question from the "street guy" peanut gallery:

If your gauge has integrated playback functionality (mine does), is that legal?

Not "compliant with the spirit of the rule" but technically legal because it is a gauge?

Or illegal because it logs some data.

Rule says wideband is OK, the rule does not say a playback A/F gauge is illegal.
I'd think we'd have to assume it is legal?

I am not sure I understand how you are using the data from the AFR. I can see using it during test and tune to get the carb's jetted correctly, you are running dual carbs, I think most NSS Mopars must run dual carbs or if 1 carb it is an AFB per the rules. But the way I am reading your post you are checking the afr every run and rejetting the carbs after each run? Is this correct? Just trying to understand. I run my carbs on the lean side, one look at the weather station and I can tell how the car will respond thru out the day. I haven't touched the jetting in several years and my motor is 13+ to1 compression. I guess I've been lucky

How to find out whether you're illegal: you beat one of their friends.

nss guy: I have found jetting can vary as much as 4 jet sizes in the fall weather and 2 to 3 in spring - all during one race day.

Lets say you like to run at 13.1 to 13.5 and your at a Da of 700 ft with 60 grains of water and 58 degrees, temp change with north wind hits about 3pm, by 9 pm you at -350 ft, 20 grains of water 40n degrees and gained a full number in barometric pressure- thats 3 to 4 jet sizes to fully use that wonderful air , its 2 jet sizes to just be " safe lean".

Yes, i can get my data during test and tune or pre qualify/declare.

On other cars, not Nss, fast brackets and up, your watching weather and changing formulas constantly - every hundredth ( thousands even) matters.
On the dyno we have found even slight jetting, bleed changes make usable hp differences.

Last year we were sorting out a nss car that had a lot of changes made looking to hit 6.41"s - and we made it to .37.
I did not realize one could have the Afr gauge, but not use it after declaring.
That was brought to my attention and i just sought better clarity this year- its not a problem.

But yes, in brackets or straight index races i'm looking at data every run and watching weather changes , track temp changes, tire temps etc.
I want to leave at the same engine /trans temp each run as close as possible as well.

but weather changes effect more than jetting, im always thinking about timing as well.
I'm in East Texas and our air gets really wet during the summer and can change quite a lot on some evenings/nights depending on where we are getting weather changes from.

The Rules are the rules and so we will abide them .

Are you running a fixed index or just dial in?
When I race index I adjust to the car not the carb to hit the index. Bracket racing whatever the weather station predicts along with my wag I put adjust the dial in and don't touch the car. Now if it's fastest car wins then yes make every change possible to get max performance. I usually only run my car flat out once in the spring just to see what it's capable of and then add ballast and 'detune' to race index and usually race it the same way in et bracket dial in races. Never thought of rejetting the carb to adjust to an index.

Several things,
The Nss car i help with is straight index, last year was a LOT of changes he wanted to make so, it was about chasing a number, tuning to get there etc.
This year his will be pretty much a piece of cake- though he doesn't like to run ballast.
On Grudge, i'm looking for all i can get.
New car will be bracket and some index stuff- whatever has a decent pay-out.
Dial in, run the dial - not a big deal .

Index shouldn't be a big deal either.
once we have car sorted, get some data to work with , none of it should be a big deal really, just have to watch the weather in spring and late fall, summer is pretty much just really hot, really humid - regular old "sucks to be na" racing weather- grin.

I don't know anyone down here racing for money thats not gathering data and using it.
Of course the guys on the bottle ,,,, well, they just adjust their formula.

BTW- BEAUTIFUL CAR, sweet leave.

I have to agree with Jamie. I don't touch the carbs or timing either. Once its close the gain/loss is minimal. I've been laughed at about changing 5lbs of ballast. That being said you can get pretty darn close to index. If we're off more than .01, we made a mistake.
Doug

I had no i8dea this would be such a wide subject.
Perhaps its the difference in the parts of the country and weather.
Everyone i know down here racing for money or pints towards real money are taking in a lot of data and using that data constantly- timing, afr/jetting, driveshaft speed, attitude, g forces, tire temps, track temps etc.
Most data is just date/place data to date- patterns emerge etc.
But yes, guys are working with timing and mixtures even in the freaking staging lanes if there was an oil down and weather shifted.
When 15 to 40 k is on the line, i don't see anyone taking their car for granted because they realize the others are not.

I have a friend that won 2 championships last year and they didn't run the same formulas two runs in a row more than a few times all year, was more critical in the fall of course.

I absolutely "get it" for NSS and yes, simple bracket racing and fairly stable weather- just dial in and drive, no big deal.

but if your racing a tight /quick idex and there is a hard weather shift, the guys that win down here are the guys that work to stay tight on the number.
Our air can change radically/quickly- other places are likely different.

If im running a money index and we get a big thunderstorm stoppage ( pop up storm) and then track is cleared to restart- im gonna be watching air density hard, water grains hard- only way i know of to get back whats lost is with timing and air/fuel- exception would be if we are running ballast to "slow down" , then we could trim that.

NSS - we are adhering to those rules to a tee.