Gen 2 Hemi Bracket Motor?

Looking for some help on which way to go with my engine build for my car.
1970 Plymouth GTX 25.3 chassis, alterkation front suspension, Dana 60 4 link rear suspension trying to stay under 3400lbs with me in it.
So what I’ve accumulated already KB raised cam block, Stage 5 Millennium cylinder heads Cnc ported and assembled by MCH, Callies magnum xl 4.750 stroke crank, Oliver billet 7.100 rods, .750 lift solid roller cam and 426-4 Indy intake port matched to heads.
So I’m kind of on the fence about a single 4 set up and would like to run a sheet metal tunnel ram but don’t want to spin it to high.
If you had all these parts what would you do?
If I run the single 4 I was thinking about putting a single stage fogger on it.

Thanks for any and all info
Kevin

Why such a small cam?

Don't shoot me, but don't the millenium heads require a sheet metal intake? I don't know of any cast intakes that fit those, but I could be wrong.

I run the big runner Indy single 4 intake on my 605....I like it. Its fairly light, has huge runners, and fuel distribution is not bad at all.

The Indy Hemi tunnel ram suffers from a small plenum. A lot of people that do run them ad a big spacer to help. Even with efi on my old one, I did the same thing and it helped a bunch.

If I had your parts, I would build as many cubes as possible, and go with the RBRE rocker arms in a high ratio to help the cam. From there, compression is about all you have left to pick.

I’ve got intake spacers for the single 4 intake and at first when I was starting this build I had spoke to Bob at MCH and he gave me the number to a guy at comp cams.
Bob said Jeff always delt with him so he help me chose a cam but I’m open to a suggestions

Kevin

With this build as well I’d like to run EFI and E85

Kevin

Here is a pick with an SV1 carb on it...

No Gen2 HEMI should run a single 4Bbl carb. It's just wrong. LOL.

Alright alright I’ll get a sheet metal manifold built
Lol

Kevin

Just giving you a hard time Kevin. Bought any new parts for the project?

Jeff

Lol ya door skins and I’ve been thinking if I keep waiting to build a boosted Hemi for the car it may never get done.
So I figured maybe a little spray or try running KOS since now they changed rules for N/A cars can run a 33/10.5 Tire

Kevin

Hey Jeff,
Who does your machine work for you?

Kevin

I have a local guy do my block work. He's a one man shop, and swamped with work.

There’s no really good shops around here so I’ll start looking In MN.
My buddy took his block to Line Performance and another friend deals with Wheelers.
My chassis builder recommended Wheelers as well

Kevin

You have looked into a few power adder choices over time. Decide what class you would like to drive the car in or just bracket race the car or street race it. Your decision of a class will decide on parts to buy. NSS, Fast on and on all have their own rules. 3400lb I do not think will be that hard to attain with an aluminum Hemi and other things to put the X on a diet. Were in Ontario do you live, does not sound like the GTA area of Ontario were there is plenty of good shops to choose from.

I know,,,,Lend me an Eddy single plane dual quad with a pair og 800cfm Thunder series carbs and I will try it...

I’m in Northwestern Ontario, I’m 30 minutes from the Minnesota border and about 5 1/2hrs from Minneapolis.
Yes I’ve looked at a few power adders and since I’ve put the Alterkation suspension in I’ve centered the motor so it’s made some issues with Prochargers and turbos I have to basically removed inner aprons build new headers.
I was looking at blowers roots and screw, everyone I’ve spoke to said stay away from a roots since they build lots of heat and use more hp to turn.
I’d like to take it to cruise nights and bracket race as well as run KOS at BIR


Kevin

Well, did you look at the Whipple 8.3L blower? Looks like a roots, runs like a screw blower...Whipple W510R....All the good things of a roots, without all the heat.....

https://www.vividracing.com/whipple-w510r-83l-twin-screw-supercharger-p-150706668.html

No this is the first I’ve seen of the whipple blower, I’ve looked for whipple screw blowers.

Thanks
Kevin

So I just sent whipple a message asking about options for there 8.3L screw blower.
Thanks Dragula

Kevin

If you have the raised cam block you should be able to drop a 5" arm in it.

I thought 4.75 stroke was the largest you could put in a standard Block.

Kevin

Correct, I thought you said you had a raised cam block, if so 5" crank will fit.
My standard height block fits a 4-3/4 crank nicely. A couple cam lobes though are at .060 from hitting the rods.

Ron Flood at Cedar Machine in North Branch , Mn. would be a very good choice.
He may well be Jericho's one man shop......he is one of the best around and relatively unknown by most measures.
But he breathes precision and has a lot of Hemi experience.
He has the fixtures and tooling for most blocks.
And is a stand up individual.
It would be worth a call.

A screw blower is how you get power without the destructive RPM that chews up your valve gear.

I do not, and will not go through Ron. My second choice (if I had to) would be Line's. They do very nice work, and Lance is as hard of a worker as you will find. I have a few friends that go through Lance, and all have been happy with his work.

Yes I’ve got a raised cam KB Block and always thought that the largest stroke was 4.75.

Kevin

I think sticking w/ the single 4 Indy manifold is best for what you're describing. Add a fogger and have some fun w/ it when you want. Bracket race it NA otherwise.

It sounds like to me you want the WOW factor when someone looks at the motor or the car and a blower will give you that, there is a Duster in town like that. If your car was going to run at the track only a 605 with two carbs on a good intake and lots of Compression and good gas and I would pick a Hogan intake can make you a ton of horse power for an easy 9 second pass. Most of the racers around me run NSS. All run in the 8s and some have run as low as 8.20 in a Super Stock A Body that came apart at just over 1100ft doing this. This car had the special set of Aluminum heads from FHO. I was wondering how much spring pressure are you going to run and what valves and what valve seats. Most of these guys have bigger that a 750 lift cam, all but one guy and he runs 890s with the lift you have. I was going to say you will have to check things on the motor each year but since it snows early were you are you will have all Winter to do that.

The heads have Copper alloy valve seats, titanium valves and not sure on spring pressure

Kevin

My Keith Black stage 7 compucam roller [Crane] is a 750 lift that requires 606 lbs. open 220 lbs. closed set at 2"

When I got the cam from comp cams they sent all necessary parts to assemble heads.
MCH put them together

Kevin

Kevin, I've never done anything with a raised cam, so I'm no expert. But guys are building 4.75" stroke hemis without the raised cam. I would have thought you could go 5 " with a raised cam?

It’s to bad I didn’t know that before I started the build, I would of ordered a 5” stroke crank.
But I’ll run what I have and make the best of it.
Plus I know if I go big boost it’ll handle the power.

Kevin

With the cam raised in the block I believe it requires a special cam core and also a belt drive.

That's correct on the special cam , 48* and belt drive. I think someone makes a gear drive also. Any crank over the 4.5 gets hard to find a lot more expensive and longer lead times.

KB makes a gear drive, Jessel makes a belt drive and I never knew anything about a special cam.
Ken Black never mentioned it when I ordered my block.
I’ll need to shot KB a email and find out for sure

Thanks for the info guys
Kevin

gen 2 hemis is not a bracket motor

Sure they are. I can't run with these heads up guys anymore. So a bracket weenie I have become.

Why not?

If it's a 14 second bracket.

What is the reasoning why a Gen 2 Hemi can not be a bracket motor. NSS is a bracket racing class, dial you number and try to match it. Lots of time you can be running someone a second slower in the 9s.

What are your options on a 5 inch stroke. At one time Callies did not have a crank available, do they now and what are spec on this crank. If you sell the crank you have would it be worth the money in the long run going with the bigger stroke. Time and money is your decision. The old KB Company might not even be in business anymore. The New KB blocks have many changes from the old KB Blocks for the better. You might want to email or phone FHO or Barton or others that are Venders for the new KB, the owner of Marsh Performance is a member here. They all would know what your block is.

Yes they are!!!!! Best sounding bracket motor you will ever hear....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VePsP0lHKoM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrm62S2Fmow&t=16s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AXRHXSV5Jc

wouldnt want a 5' stroke. what you give up in durability, makes it not worth it to me....... I have 4.5 stroke in my street car and it made 1000 on pump gas, we shift it at 8k and its happy. have an old steel norris rocker on it which have been fine, but if i had my choice i would have the RBRE rocker gear!

Ya there’s no chance of me changing cranks now and my plan was T&D rockers but I’m going to look at Jessel as well

Kevin

My Barton T&D rocker set up weighs about 35 pounds , no $hit

The 5" crank brings with it an expensive cam, not everybody carries a core so it's a custom cam only and belt drive or now possibly a gear drive too. But the extra displacement gets expensive.

Fixed.

Nope you’re right not cheap at all

Kevin

I agree the RBRE rocker gear is so nice and has plenty of benefits. Not cheap but what is now a days.

No rocker assembly is cheap for Stage 5 Millenniums

Kevin

Why not stageV rockers?

No difference in price for rockers, so may as well go with T&D

Kevin

Just curious How efficient are tunnel rams at lower rpms?
Say under 7500rpm

Kevin

My Weiand on my 605 made 765ftlbs@3500rpm. I d never even consider going to a single 4bbl after getting TR dialed in. It's got fantastic street manners and explosive acceleration.

I'd love to see a comparison on your motor b/t your current Weiand tunnelram and the Indy tunnelram w/ a plenum spacer on it. Back when I was considering using a tunnelram, all the hemi guys said anything less than the Indy wouldn't be worth it and even the Indy needs a big plenum spacer on a big inch motor.

Chip it would be a fun test. I'm pretty sure I'm leaving some on the table with my setup. I'm pretty sure some spacers to increase the plenum volume would help. The current setup all fits under the hood, barely. I just don't have any room to go up without cutting the hood. I refuse to do that.
A modern tunnelram should easily out power it, but at the same time I can't use all the power I make now. I have to slow it down or get bounced off the track.

I understand your situation! It would be an expensive test unless someone loaned you a manifold to try. I'd just love to see where the old school stuff stacks up. It's a shame there aren't more tests done like this, but I guess there aren't many people racing hemi in the grand scheme of things.
Like when I was trying different single 4500 manifolds...I had to buy one of each to see how they compared. Sure, you can guess which one will run the best, but until you try em firsthand you don't know.

Just think Chip now that you're spraying you need to go back and start all over and check to see if anything changed with what manifold it likes with spray. LOL

Funny you say that b/c I'm fixing to put the biggest one back on the car. It hurt the lowend grunt real bad on motor, but that won't be a problem w/ the nitrous.

I did try a smaller Indy single plane on the Hemi when it was on the Dyno. It gave up somewhere in the nieghbors of 50-60 hp compared to the Weiand TR. I looked at the bigger manifold but didn't like the pricetag. I ended up giving the manifold to Dragula, I don't remember if it worked for him or if he went bigger
The carb I used was a BG-1140cfm unit and it was to small.

IIRC that manifold was the smaller Indy 426-2 (4150 flange) w/ the dominator adapter on it? The only 2 worth running on a big motor are the Ray Barton manifold or the big Indy 426-4.

I switched to the Indy big 4500 and run a 1250 on it...

You are correct Chip. I guy I know that bracket raced a stroked Hemi bought both the Indy and the Barton intakes. I spoke with at the track, he did back to back tests with both intakes in unported form. The Barton was 1/2 a tenth better.
The one thing that I really remember about them was how heavy they were. I think my Tunnel Ram was about the same weight.

We have tested the smaller Barton vs the smaller Indy on a 484 Hemi, and both ran very close...The smaller Indy we did have a 1" spacer on it. Plugs from either looked great...The weight difference between them was unreal though...

I have not tested the 4500's against each other. Its taken me a while just to get my junk to run. I hope to enjoy it a little more this year.

The weight is surprising!
The Indy -3 is 22 lbs w/ valley plate.
The Indy -4 is 25 lbs w/ valley plate
The Barton is 35 lbs and has a built in valley plate. The thing is an anchor, but it makes power.

All I've tested (naturally aspirated) are these three 4500 flange manifolds. On my 572, the Barton is the best of both worlds. At least 1.5 tenths quicker and 2 mph faster than the -3.
The -4 is faster on the backhalf, but lost a lot of lowend grunt...1/2 a tenth slower in the 60' compared to the Barton. The big -4 needs to turn more RPM to shine...my combo is a little too mild NA to utilize it.

I'm putting the Indy -4 back on it soon since it's pretty much only gonna be run on nitrous from now on.

My original build on the 605 featured the Indy 426SR heads. I ordered them with Indy's CNC option. I later found out they were the first set they CNCd. They were disappointing. I sent them to Modern with instructions to see what he could get out of them. After a couple month delays I finally threatened to show up at his door. He finally finished them and shipped them. Unfortunately all he did was a bowl blend and valve job. They flowed 387@.700.
Anyway they made 853hp@818ftlbs.
Fast forward a couple years and I bought a set of Indy Hi-Po heads 2.4" intakes, 265 cc intake volume. They flowed 443@.700 They made 832 through the mufflers and on previous Dyno pulls the mufflers cost me 117hp. Went to make a couple final pulls with open headers and collectors and my phase convertor that powers the Dyno water pump died. Being short of time I pulled the motor off and reinstalled it in the truck.
I have yet to take it down the track in this configuration. This setup is down almost 100ftlbs but up on hp. The heads moved the hp and tq up 1000 rpm in the power band. Im going to leave it alone until I can get a couple passes in at the strip.

Dave, still got those 426SR heads?

Yep and I may put them back on the motor yet. Actually I have 3 sets, my old iron heads and the 2 sets of Indys

Let me know when you have a garage sale. LOL.