440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?

Hi! building a 440 and wanted all opinions and advice!

440 Build- Stock or Stroke ? for a nice street car!
And few times a year take it to the track!

Any one that has rebuild their 440 engine for a 70 Cuda 4sp-??
I have a 70 Block (NOT HP) ready to be built!
But not sure if should build stock- 375-400 hp
Or stoker- 400-500 hp build

Dont want a radical car,
one I can enjoy as a driver daily for Spring/ summer & Fall!!!

I have spoken to Mancini racing:
they say!
The cost is very close to same Stock or Stroker build!

Keep in mind cuda is "non- matching" numbers!
Please give some opinions & advice!

Thank you
Greatly appreciate it!
Sonny

I would spend a little more and go the stroker, check out 440source for a good rotating assembly, maybe a nice 10-1 500 cuber, nothing crazy. Trick flow for a set of heads.

What parts do you have now, and have you figured out a realistic budget?

Why did you start two threads asking the same questions?

The stroker kits are a pretty good deal, really not too much more $$$ than rebuilding stock lower end. The big expenses really are in the aftermarket top end of heads, cams, intakes, and headers/exhaust.

If you already have a good crank and rods, and just need to punch the block and get new pistons, I'd leave it at that. If all you have is an empty block and are planning on buying a rotating kit anyway, I'd go with a stroker kit. You won't spend much more, and easier to make the bigger power without having to sacrifice drivability.

Sonny , Do you have a complete 440 core to work with? If so then leave it stock stroke. It really doesn't sound like you need or even want a whole lot of power. If all you have is a bare block then you may even want to consider a good small block. J.Rob

My thoughts exactly especially with a 4spd. A nice stock type 10:1 440 with flat tops and even some worked 452 iron heads that can be found cheap will do, or Eddy's/440source heads, it'll have enough power to get you to mid 12's on those odd trips to the track as long as you can hook it up.....my 2's.

Pretty much sums it up. If you have a good crank and rods that only need minor touch up, use them. If you have to buy crank and rods, I'd go for a mild stroker route as it would only be a little bit more.

Which stock 440 had "good rods"?

I ran my 6pk bottom end for 2 yrs@6700rpm and once@7400 through the traps with no probs, nothing special bolts either just a good internal balance on it all

I look at it this way. I ran 9.80's back in the late 1980's with TRW pistons, stock crank, stock recon rods with good bolts, and ported 906 heads. If I wanted 500 horsepower or less I know I could easily do it with a stock crank build. With the nice after market rods available now I would never spend a cent doing what we used to do to stock rods. Figure out YOUR budget and how fast YOU want to go and have fun with your project. Some of the slower builds are the funnest builds. If possible plan on aluminum heads as there a LOTS of budget minded options out there. Sure beats spending money on old cast iron upgrading them and they flow a lot better too.

I 30 days all those stroker kits go up 25 percent, about $700.

Are the 'source ones going up?

$2,249 440 Source Stroker kit gives you modern components. Full radius crank, H beam rods and lightweight pistons. This was very expensive full race stuff years ago. And it comes balanced with rod and main bearings and freight to your doorstep. To me stock internals are for the dumpster. You will have more power than ever dreamed of. I would use the 512. It's a good time to be building an engine.

Brandon posted a "heads up" here about his prices going up weeks (?) ago.

You could build a stock stroke package that will make the number but it will take some compression which = premium fuel and a somewhat lumpy cam which might = a 3.55-3.73 rear gear. Maybe not a big deal but your highway cruise RPM is in the 3000+ range now.

OR you could build 500 cubes at 9:1 with aluminum heads and a cam with stockish idle quality and make the number on 87 regular.

The stroker will make major torque right off idle and that is what will shove your butt back in the seat and it will haul the mail even with a highway friendly gear, 2.94-3.23.

My 8.97:1 493 was making good torque by 1500 and was doing 500 ft/lbs by 2000 and peaked 600 @ 4000 and that was with a lumpy MP509 108 LSA cam.

Kevin

For 400-500hp, other than upgrading the rods/pistons I'd use the 3.75 stroke rotating assembly and put entry level aftermarket aluminum heads on it.

I agree with this, very simple.

As others have mentioned above, a regular street car with a 4-speed can be incredibly traction limited. If the OP isn't going to run some fairly sticky tires on the car, the torque from even a basic modified 440 will simply turn into tire smoke. And don't forget that good traction + a clutch + big torque = the need for beefier driveline parts.

If you own a machine shop or can get the machine work done at a reasonable cost, you can save some money using the stock crank and rods.
On our current 505 build we had a 77 440 with cast crank that needed to be turned, and was external balanced, so for us a stroker kit was an easy choice. Costs to consider with stock parts is turning/polishing crank and balancing the rotating assembly. For the stock rods, upgrade to ARP bolts and usually big end needs resizing. Add the cost of the piston press pin R&R. Block machine work should be the same, except need to clearance oil pickup boss slightly with the stroker kit. I consider the cost of the pistons to be about a wash for equal quality parts.
What you gain with the stroker kit is more CID, higher quality materials, stronger 7/16" rod screws, much lighter pistons, plus lighter full floating piston pins. Also, the stroker kit pistons use thinner piston rings, where most of the stock style replacement pistons use the stock thickness ring pack.

Yep, x2

I see four avenues.
#1 Build a stoke 10.1:1 440. The factory rating in 69' was 375hp/475tq. This will give you strong street performance with the driveabilty of a cruiser. Smooth, quiet, responsive and no maintenance. Add a few goodies like a intake and headers and you're over 400hp.

#2 stock displacement but racey. This moves the torque higher into the rpm range which results in more hp, but sacrifices responsiveness, smooth, quiet and driveability. Requires change in converter and possibly gears. Estinated $2-2.5k for good parts.

#3 Maximize displacement. Build the bottom end bigger, little to no changes up top. More torque, more responsive, smooth, quiet. 50 to 70 additional cubes will net an additional 100 ft lbs of torque give or take. And allows for additional cam duration and lift without sacrificing driveability. Estimated $2-3k in budget over stock parts.

#4 Build the top for additional air flow, stock bottom. Not as efficient as adding cubes, but will result in additional torque throughout the rpm range. Estimated $2k to $2.5k in budget over stock parts.

#5 Combination of #3 and #4. Stroker with better breathing top end. Greater torque throughout the rpm range. Great driveability, smooth, quiet, responsive and fast...very fast.

Molnar or 440source for the bottom. TF240 for the top. Edelbrock for the induction, Hughes for the valve train. Estimated additional additional $5-6K, plus machine work and assembly, in the budget.

Start with the budget. $3k?, $5k, $8k?

The "I beam vs. H beam" discussion is 100 years old, with no answer in site. In some engines an H beam is not possible because of clearance problems to the block, cam, etc.
IIRC Larry Widmer (assuming same volume of material and cross-sectional area) prefers H beam for boosted applications (high cylinder pressure) and I beam for NA (high RPM reciprocating load).
I'm using H beam in my (30 psi?) boosted engine because... my manufacturer of choice only makes H beam for my engine.
We're 50 years into aftermarket rods, and very little science appears in the catalogs, including "rated power".

For a happy street experience:
1. build the largest engine you can afford (stock block, stroker crank, quality rods)
2. quality aluminum heads
3. everything else is fluid depending on budget and time

Then if you go big everything needs to be changed like radiator, carb or EFI, exhaust. Theres no free rides, these budgets can and will double especially if your starting with just a body and a core 440.

This forum doesn't reflect it but there are still more guys building stock or mild 440s than strokers.

Some guys are good at spending other guys money and we all aren’t rich. Like I said above budget comes first, or at least it should. Personally I would love to have a 1000 horsepower NA small block but for me the maintenance of having a 9000 rpm engine is out of the question as would the costs of building it. It all comes down to horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go.

The OP still hasn't responded to these basic questions. IMO, the thread is dead in the water until he gets around to answering them.

Sorry for the late reply.. as so many of you are giving great input..!

I just want to thank all of you, for helping me to make the decision?
Not an easy one, since there are so many combinations of doing this build!

Yes I do have the 440-block with steel crank! Ready to go!
But iam not going to rush this build... want to get as much info & details as I can since you all have built engines on your Mopars!

But I think keeping it simple.. will be the key..!
I will be happy if i can build a 450-500 hp for my budget!
With a budget of about $6-$8 if I go with 440-6pack

I think i dont want to sacrifice drivability, that mens I will be leaning towards a stock Stroker with aluminum heads, & good pistons & a forged crank!


still deciding ON:
440- six -pack set up..!
Or
440- 4-barrel set up with a good intake!

Any input on my ideas is greatly appreciated!
Sonny

Six Pack looks cooler, but could be more difficult to get the tune right than a common 4-BBL carb. If you don't have anything for the Six Pack now, then you'll spend far more for the parts, too.

I'd build as stout an engine as I could afford with a single 4 bbl, get the car up & running, enjoy some seat time, & make the Six Pack your next project.

I don't know if you are aware of offset grinding the stock Mopar rod crankshaft journals from the 2.375 size to BB Chevy rod journal 2.200 and increase the stroke from 3.7500 to 3.9100 or 3.900which allows you to run a lot better price BB Chevy H or I beam long rod like 7.100 length that is a lot lighter and it uses a lot light smaller .990 wrist pin. Many of the good piston companies make a shelf piston for this combination also
You could end up with a 464 to 471 C.I. motor depending on the final bore size and stroke length
Those motors flat rock, they don't make as much HP or torque as the longer stroke motors make but they do make what I consider a lot better than the stock stroke and heavy pistons and rods do
I need to warn you though that I like speed and power, a BUNCH

I think we'll have a better idea on if that will happen after the G20 summit.

If you don't want to sacrifice driveability then stroker is the way to go.

4.25 crank goes in with little to no clearancing for 508 cubes. The new Trick Flows seem to deliver the most bang for the buck out of the box.

Driveability is all about the camshaft and Dwayne Porter should be able to spec you out a cam that will more than meet your requirements while still using stock rocker gear and having idle quality approaching your grandmother's New Yorker (after she swapped in the 6pak cam, Granny was from Pasadena ya know!).

Kevin

Simple is the key as you say, for a 99% street car that will be a 4spd?, or even 727 I would build a>

9.5>10:1 440ci, TF240 heads, ($2200 but worth it), a mild hyd or HR spec'd cam as mentioned. An Eddy RPM intake or air-gap perhaps and a 950DP at least. You'll easily reach and surpass your 450>500hp target with a mild cam with those TF heads flowing 310cfm@ just .500"and have plenty of torque.

For those odd trips to the track with sticky tyres it could run mid 11's@122....Driveability is not just about cam choice if you like getting into the throttle on the street with a 512 motor.

Six Pack looks cooler, but could be more difficult to get the tune right than a common 4-BBL carb. If you don't have anything for the Six Pack now, then you'll spend far more for the parts, too.

This^^^

If the OP decides to stay with a 3.75 stroke build, there is a really old post of mine that someone copied & reposted here not that long ago that outlined some combinations I ran way before my car became far more strip than street. I don't have a link to it at the moment, though.

The man wants a 440 six pack, how can you fault that?

I have run two different 440 6-BBL setups on two different cars. My tuning knowledge had improved significantly in the years between the two cars. There's an experience factor that should be considered, especially the farther from stock the rest of the engine combination becomes.

Before tuning, the biggest problem I see is the expense of a six pack set up vs. a 4 bbl. This will be especially important if the $6-8,000 budget is trying to be kept on the low side. A new six pack setup will eat up a third of that money alone.

If I remember correctly, that center carb is quite pricey $$$

Every six pack car I have tested with a six pack against a similar tuned single four barrel went faster with the six pack, same on engine dyno testing with more HP at a lower RPM

^^^

Thats probably because they didn't have a Dom on top

if your buying new stuff a 6pak will be $2500, a ch28 kit will be around $1200, good single 4bbl complete will be around $1000. I've been a die hard 6pak guy for decades; they will make power. but, the manifolds don't fit worth a crap and if you don't understand carb's they can be a headache. I pretty much ignore single 4bbl's anymore, but there are some simple options that will make power. currently i'm stuck on the ch28. for the money spent and ease of operation the ch28 can't be beat. if it were me i'd not do a 6pak and use the extra $1000+ on other parts or just plain stick the money in my pocket.

Yes, the 6 pak has the cool factor.
With the car parked and the hood up.

"Keyboard jockey": playing with tri-power since my 1958 348 "W" engine with 3 X 2 Rochester 2G, 54 years ago...

I think a lot overlook the potential of a stock stroke 440 now that stroker kits are so popular. One thing to remember when using a stock crank is you don't have to worry if it will fit properly, since so many of the new stroker cranks need corrective machining right out of the box.

Just me, but if I was going to build a hot street 440 under 600 hp, I'd stick w/ a stock crank.

Six packs are expensive, but aren't the huge PITA many think they are. They run right there w/ a good single plane and big Holley 4 barrel. The expense is a big drawback though.

The last Holley carb I bought was $900.

The 440 six pack will add value to a 70 cuda if done correctly

Used to be lots of untuned slow Hemis out there. That's been replaced by lots of untuned slow strokers these days. It's more about bragging about them than having a runner for a lot of guys.

i believe it!

i'm a little hesitant to throw this out but that old 3916 was the nicest driving single carb I've ever owned. in fact I still have it. gave $25 for it in 1970; wall hanger now.

OP, here's something that should be considered when choosing your induction system. A carburetor will need a few things to make it a pleasant start and drive. You'll want a choke, manual or automatic, for the cold starts. This is fuel enrichment for cold, dense air. Electric chokes are the simplest, but work at the same rate of opening in all temperatures and can be fickle in extreme colds. You'll want a heat crossover for optimum driveability on a cold engine, but a heat crossover works best with a heat riser valve in one of the exhaust outlets, this requires exhaust manifolds. This keeps the fuel from condensing on the floor of the intake manifold and helps keep the fuel in suspension for proper atomization.

Port fuel injection negates all of this. No heat crossover, no chokes, no heat risers required for cold engine driveability.

You're in Ontario Canada? Brrrrr. just one more thing to consider.

OK, dug up the link HERE.

And before anyone asks "What would you do differently today?", I'll cut to the chase:

1. "Ideally", figure out what my end goal was for performance, and spend way less money doing it once than going through the process in so many incremental steps. The problem for me is that I could never define what "Fast Enough" was along the way, until I hit my chassis limitations based on ET tech requirements.

2. Never spend a penny on OEM iron heads, unless I was getting the work done CHEAPLY (but still of high quality). I could copy my old builds down into the very high 10s using something like ported Sidewinders or Edelbrock Performer RPM heads.

3. Dump hydraulic flat-tappet cams; too RPM limited once you get past maybe 500-ish HP and need to rev the engine past 6K regularly

4. Don't go overly aggressive on solid flat-tappet cam lobes; doesn't do much more than beat up your valve train faster for what I don't believe are "huge" gains. I still can't say at what point I'd go solid roller, considering I've only made that change w/ my last build.

5. Don't "cheap out" on the torque converter for a street/strip car. This is probably over simplifying things, but IMO cheap ones either don't last and/or slip too much when you're looking for increased stall speed.

Rant / Lecture = OFF.

Seen a few strokers that under performed,probably due to unmatched combo &/or not tuned properly

Step 1-
Determine your budget for the complete engine and any upgrades that may need to be done along with it(cooling system, fuel system, trans upgrades, etc).

Once you have that number, it will often steer the direction of the build.