440 stroker?

So, according to almost everyone that responded to my previous post, it would be extremely hard to make a 550 hp daily driver 440 without a stroker kit.....i was trying to use the lunati 60303 for my build since it has a very broad powerband (1800-6000) because i dont want to have to rev to 2200 to get it to move off a redlight in normal street driving conditions. 1. Would stroking it get rid of that problem if i had a bigger cam? And 2. With that cam (or a similar cam/custom cam) would i be able to make around 550 hp on pump gas.

Its pretty simple, the more cubes, the more tractable 550 hp will be. A 535 or 541 cube motor will have that off idle torque you want, and can use a much tighter converter and tamer cam. I would not waste a second deciding to go big stroker after having built 408, 446, 475, 499, and 528 motors. My biggest mistake was selling a 4.5 crank that could have made a 572 out of my current motor.

Anybody know the specs on the 440 Trick Flow put their heads on that made 605hp?
I thought that was a mild build.

10.5:1 compression 446 c.i.d. with Trick Flow PowerPort® 240 cylinder heads
(TFS-61617802-C00),

Trick Flow Track Max™ hydraulic roller camshaft
https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-61602003

(TFS-61602003), 1.5 ratio rocker arms, Trick Flow Track Heat® intake manifold

(TFS-61600113), Trick Flow Track Heat Pro 950 cfm carburetor (TFS-20950R),
Hooker Super Competition headers with 1.7/8" primaries, open exhaust...they hit 550hp@5000rpm.

500+hp is possible with exh., and that Lunati cam (240 T/flow@.500"/290cfm). But you can't beat a stroker for low rpm ++ bottom end for a street car.

You have already said this is a build for a street car. Why are you so fixated on this 550 HP # when you're never going to know if the engine makes that much power or not? Build the engine to suit the application and it will be more enjoyable to drive the car, regardless of the peak HP it makes.

Re a stroker vs a standard 440... up to the limitations of the cylinder heads, camshaft and induction system, a bigger engine will make more torque earlier. The extra cubes will allow for a somewhat larger cam to be used and maintain the same general characteristics for idle, etc. The bigger engine won't need to be revved as high to make the same power, nor will it want to be revved higher if the induction system is a restriction in the first place.

I don't know how much other information you've posted on the car itself (gearing, transmission type, etc.), but it all factors into the engine build parameters.

I think the best chance of you coming close to the magic number you speak of, and with that Lunati cam, is with a 500+ " stroker and trick flow heads. Regardless of the hp number, that combo will make for a very quick and fun street car.

Like Bradh said build it to suit the application. That is the true road to a fun car that drives like a stocker and will fry the tires at will. Combine lots of cubes with good heads, mild cam for the torque range you want, and you will be happy you went that way. Attention to details of what makes a stock type motor faster will put the icing on the cake. By that I mean cold air package, sharp tune, a VERY well designed exhaust, MAYBE underdrive pulleys, etc.

Also, if you are running an automatic, spend the money to buy a high quality custom torque converter that's matched to your combo.

I think you're better off starting from the beginning.

It's a daily street driver 440 B body, right?
Build that, and try it first.


Your original plan is fine except the intake, and even that is not totally horrible but I would suggest run an rpm or a street dominator. Order up some 2" + compression height pistons, Deck the block to within .015 of zero, run a 750 to 800 carb and a 1.75 to 1.875 long tube street header of your choice.

" i dont want to have to rev to 2200 to get it to move off a redlight in normal street driving conditions"

You won't unless you install a loose performance/race torque converter. ...Which many of the cams that will allow you to make 550 HP or more will require.

Your original idea most likely would not make 500 but it will run and sound great, and will make tons of torque, and honestly I'd go with that. It will pull a stock converter and 3.23/3.55 gears all day long without complaint. I still say do that, and get some experience under your belt first. Maybe start testing your combination. And go from there.

Good advice!!

Its a street car that i plan on taking to the strip often. So what i am hearing (i dont know anything about strokers), is that with a stroker kit i could use a bigger cam (say, 2400-6200 operating rpm), but it would still function similar to a smaller cam (like the 1800-6000 cam i want to use)?

You can use a bigger cam, but don't go crazy. Maybe ten more degrees than one recommended for a 440, if you are going over 500 inch. It is best if you get someone to spec out a good cam for what you want to do. Talk to Dwayne (fast68plymouth) who answered here. He can set you up with a cam that will match your needs and make plenty of power. Dwayne has lots of experience and dynos a lot of motors.

Unless there is a target ET, then the hp you make is still just an arbitrary number.

If there is an ET goal you’re trying to achieve, then you need “x” amount of power(minimum) to get there based on the race weight.

The more “street” oriented the overall combo of the car is, the more you’ll need to overshoot the minimum power requirement to still be able to achieve the desired ET.

In general, the quicker you’re trying to go with your dual purpose car...... the more concessions you’ll have to make on the “street” side of the equation.

There are many misunderstandings on cam shaft operating ranges and torque converter stall speeds
If you have not built and driven a motor with a small camshaft and then the same basic motors with a lot bigger camshaft you may think big is bad, it is NOT
I've built and dyno tested a lot(8+) of stock stroke 440 pump gas motors with stock type heads and then with mildly ported stock iron head with bigger valves and bigger camshafts, almost all of them where dyno tested using a Holley 850 to 950 CFM carb.
One of the first motors was a 446 C.I. with stock 906 heads, a mild hydraulic lifter camshaft from Comp and a stock six pack set up, that motor made 470 HP at around 5400 RPM and more torque than HP. The last stock stroke motor had a one off weird grind Reed camshaft that was ground on a 101 lobe center and was a lot bigger on the duration than most of the common street grind camshaft. That motor made 535 HP at 5900 RPM made 500 HP at 6500 RPM with 9.5 to 1 compression ratio with a set of 906 mildly ported heads with 2.14 intake valves and 1.74 exhaust valves
The first pump gas stroker I made was for my own car and it was a 400 block bore to 4.375 with a 4.250 stroke crankshaft and a solid roller camshaft that was 260 degrees at .050 on the intake lobes with .420 lobe lift, it had 266 @ .050 on the exhaust with .409 lobe lift ground on a 108 LSA installed at 106 degrees on the intake lobes. I made it have 9.25 to 1 compression ratio for CA pump swill sold back then before E10 was invented
That motor had a set of cheap Chinese imported rocker arms that where suppose to be 1.6 ratio but checked out to be 1.54 at the valves
I used a low deck stock type Eddy six pack intake and a set of 440 vacuum carbs, I was hoping it would make between 550 to 565 HP. We pulled it from 2500 RPM to 5000 RPM on the first two pulls, it made 592 HP on the first pull and 598 HP on the second pull at 5000 RPM and it made 630+ Ft. Lbs. at 5000 RPM The next pull we moved the RPM up to 5500 and finally made all pulls to 6500 RPM to make sure the motor was tested at peak HP and torque.
That motor was a real eye opener for me on pump gas stroker motors, that motor ended up making 612 HP at 5500 RPM and 644 Ft. Lbs. at 4500 RPM on CA pump swill that day back in 2001
I tested a bunch of different things on that motor on the dyno that day and later on even more parts and tuning over the years
It ended up with a 4.300 stroke crankshaft to raised the compression ratio and a set of Indy SR M.W. port size heads with 75 CC chambers which made the motor have 10.78 to 1 compression ratio, I also replaced the cheap import rockers with a set of Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio rockers that checked out to be 1.65 actual ratio at the valves I used a Indy 400-3 intake with a 1050 Holley Dominator carb, list # 9375 non HP, that combination made 727 HP at 7000 RPM and right at 695 Ft. Lbs. torque on Oregon 91 octane pump swill on a DTS engine dyno in Klamath Falls Oregon which is 4300 Ft elevation
My message is you can make more power with bigger and better parts
That motor was in my old pump gas street 1971 Duster that weighed 3450 Lbs. with me in it and a full stock gas tank ran a best of 9.993 at 134.8 PH in the 1/4 mile at Woodburn Oregon in late summer corked up with the air cleaner on
It had a complete 3.0 inch exhaust system with a pair of Magnaflow 14x7 inch wide oval muffs with 3.0 inch in and out mounted at the rear bumper.
That motor and car exceeded my wildest expectations
Think about what you want and decide exactly what you want to achieve and then go for it
You can achieve anything you set out for, it may not be easy or cheap but it will be enlightening and fun, hopefully
Good luck

the problem I have started running into when I build a big stroker is the typical street car cant take it, you spin the tires way too easily, if you get it to hook it twists up the car, even small block strokers, I built a 402 for a friends 68 notch cuda and after doing the work to get it to hook then the doors dont close right. My 410 in my dakota RT still wont hook even after running big street radials on 13" wide viper wheels, spring clamps, good shocks, I switched to a single plane intake to blow off some low end, I dont want to go bigger cam as I like the way it idles and all but you just make so much TQ it is hard to control especially when you go to a 512 or something, I need to cough up some money for cal tracs or something now. Now if your going to re-inforce the body so it dont distort, and spend time and money on suspension and tires to get it to hook it could be a ton o fun butt then you start breaking driveshafts and 8 3/4s and trannys because 600-700 LBS TQ is easy to make. Seems to me the best combos are 400-450 CID for the street, BB or SB. HP dont twist up the car so go ahead and build it to make the HP but dont go too crazy on TQ.

Keep it simple, keep it 440, 10:1, use your Lunati cam, TF240 heads, best out there...(you can do a lot more later if the racing bug gets to you)..that Holley Street Dominator intake with an 800cfm min. carb and you should make 500hp, but mainly because of those heads flow so well at low lift. 3.23>3.55 gears, that 2200 converter and you have a nice strong running street car.

As far as the track goes, fit some sticky tyres on it otherwise you are just wasting your time "literally". In theory 500hp in a 3750lb car has the full potential to go mid 11's. If you count that down .5 sec for tuning, grip at the start etc., 12.0's are on the cards with that set up. Question is...how fast do you want to go and keep it streetable....if its 10's..add some Nitrous.

That 440 will still have enough low down torque to spin the tyres from traffic lights, which is not what you want, but it should be controllable with some practice. A big stroker motor can make things worse, and you could get blown away by the guy with a small block, strokers are fine for all the reasons mentioned herein but its use on the road can be detrimental in certain situations like light to light races if your not super careful with your right foot.
my2c's.

Ah, yes... the balancing act of compromise.

Performance Goal (ET) based upon:
-> Constraints (e.g., no more than 3.55 gears)
-> Maintenance (e.g., "I never want to adjust valves again!")
-> Reliability (e.g., daily driver, weekend warrior, trailered race car)

Budget based upon:
-> What you have already
-> What you need to buy
-> What you can do yourself
-> What you have to pay someone else to do

I know I said basically the same thing on another thread recently: If you don't come up with a realistic plan and budget at the start, you'll end up spending more in the long run by the time you finally figure out what you should have known in the first place.

And, no, I'm NOT a good role model for this approach. It's definitely 20/20 hindsight in my case.

Thanks for the replies so far, and yes i know the balance is the hardest part, however, as long as i can run it on 93 (11:1 or less with alum heads?) and dont have to rev really high to move from 0, i am willing to sacrifice about anything else (and i dont know how i didnt already, but i shouldve mentioned the fact that i plan on swapping in a manual (deciding between the tko600 and t56 depending on how much torque it makes)

I forgot to mention that I had 4 different sets of heads on that pump gas 400 block stroker motor, 2 with 440 ports sizes and 2 with Max Wedge size intake ports, all with the same camshaft and the last three sets used the same brand and ratio rocker arm set.
On your deal if I was you and knew that your going to switch to a stick shaft tranny in the future I would step the cam up now
I would look for more duration and net valve lift at the valve, I would go for around 240 to 250 @.050 on the intake lobes and a little bit more duration on the exhaust side with the same or more lift
On the heads if you choose a set of the ported Trick Flow 240 heads and a matching intake and a 850 CFM or bigger carb. you should be able to make around 550 HP on 93 octane pump swill with ease with a stock stroke 440 motor
if you choose the larger Trick Flow 270 heads and matching intake you will be north of 570+ HP with al the same parts in that short block, cam and compression ratio.
If you where to go to a 4.25 stroke crankshaft in a stock 440 block with the 240 heads, intake , camshaft and same size carb. and kept the compression under 10.5 to 1 your going to be well north of 600 HP on the same fuel
I have found on aluminum headed Mopar BB motors they will make more torque than HP under 10.5 to 1 compression and make more HP than torque above that compression ratio
Torque moves the mass, especially at the lower RPM, HP moves the car above peak torque RPM

Just yet another thing to add: theres gotta be a catch to the edelbrock 7194 cam right lol? It has 300/308 adv duration but 238/246 @.050 with .480/.495 lift and 110 lobe separation and an rpm range of 1500-6500........ Does the big difference between adv duration and @.050 affect anything? It just seems like that big of an rpm range too is very impressive.

my opinion that is a soft/slower ramp . Great for endurance and easy on valve train

I have a solid flat tappet 258@050 - 293 advertised and that is an easy ramp in my 440 .

Tex

...In a Chevy 350. They forgot to mention that.

Pretty much done around 5500-5800 in a 440.

Just saying

Look up the equivalent cam for a 350, what does it say for rpm range?

Look up the equivalent (rocker ratio is higher, lift number will be higher) for a 302 Ford Windsor. Same rpm range?

Their marketing is trying to tell you a XXX degree cam has exactly the same characteristics regardless of CID. Do you believe it?

With all of the variables in play and this seems to be your first build, you’d do a lot worse than calling or visting a local mopar shop. Todd marsh shouldn’t be all that far from you.

More good advice!!!

Exactly what i was thinking before i read the quote. I have all the tools for proper engine assembly, but even after forty years of putting my own motors together in a lot of cases I find it smart to go to a pro for the right parts combo for best results. My last build was a 408 smallblock, and i sought help for that one, buying the complete valvetrain from someone that knows my combo like the back of his hand. I also went with his combo of carb,intake,heads. End result? 504 hp out of 408 cubes, at 5700 rpm on pump 93. Valvetrain is stable to 6500 rpm, i have already pushed it far enough to verify that.

Apparently, my other engine thread was taken down, after I tried bringing it back up. So I guess I'll ask the last question I had asked. Would dished pistons (for compression) have any negative effect on streetability? Without them I would have to get the heads from 78 to 84 cc, and still have too much compression. On the 500" kit they offer -24 dished pistons, and it should get the compression to around 10.05. This compression should be perfectly fine and not really affect performance, correct?

The dish in the piston is simply another way to adjust the CR.

I think you should find a book or three about basic 4-stroke engine building and operation. You're back to asking questions that really show your lack of knowledge on the basics.

I second the motion!

Third.
Motion carried.

He's asking questions at least, which is good. Can't fault him for that!

A street car on pump gas you won't want 12:1 compression. You need to build a package of parts. Try around 10.5:1? compression with aluminum heads that match your needs and a cam that will work with all you have as best you can. Read as much as possible. Even sites like 440 Source are helpful.

The OP needs to buy Andy's book and several more and read them very close before doing anything else.

OP, I promise you the return on investment is well worth it. It will steepen up your learning curve and save you time and money in the long run.

440 source sells books on building the big block mopar, that would also be a big help. Buy one and read front to back.

http://www.440source.com

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/index.php

According to another post on here the Mopar books are 50% off this time of year.

https://www.cartechbooks.com/mopar-jeep-amc.html

In addition to both Finkbeiner and Senatore's books I would also recommend SA design book the step by step guide to engine blueprinting.

Had a good discussion online recently with Chuck (he asked if I thought an updated book was needed).

What's more important:
1. To know what to do, or
2. To know why?

1. has already been answered several times
2. will take 20 years

I havent read any " other" posts, just this one, but one thing clearly comes to mind. You would best be advised, to go speak with a competent engine builder in your area, and sit down, one on one, and develop a PLAN, based on his EXPERIENCE as a builder. Your questions are all over the place, and your trying to justify building the engine based on magazine articles, internet builds and so forth. I understand, its easy to ask questions on the forums, internet and such, but all you will do, if your not experienced in building an engine ( in this case, you admitted you dont know anything about strokers) is end up with a bad build your not happy with, and wasted a lot of time and money. Find someone to work with, and all of this will go away, and you'll be happy with a engine you can drive, race, and enjoy. Most people go off center, when they arent realistic with both their needs, and reality and budgets.. A good builder can get you on course there. Good luck with the project.

I appreciate everyone's help, and I will continue to read and learn more (don't we all?), but I think I do at least understand the basics, dished pistons are just rarely talked about. I, of course, will be talking to my engine builder. Its not like I will throw a list of parts at him and call it done. From what I hear my current build (I haven't updated it yet) is within everyone's suggestions, so here we go:
500" stroker kit, -24 dished pistons (should be slightly above 10:1 CR), around .040 quench
Bare Trickflow 240, with their valves, springs will be whatever is recommended for the cam
Cam around 240@.050, around .550 lift
Most likely Harland Sharp rocker arms, 1.5 ratio
Holley SD intake
Either 870 CFM Street Avenger, or similar CFM double pumper
440 Source stroker windage tray, oil pan, and oil pickup
1 3/4" Hedman Headers (I would go 1 7/8" but that would cause clearance issues with the pitman arm)
Edelbrock RPM fuel pump? (max pressure is 6 lbs, though)

A dished piston is a means to an end. Just like a dome.

When you start building engines where you need to pick the fly poop out of the pepper, then you worry about the dome/dish/combustion chamber.

You might want to consider using a deep reverse dome piston with 24.0 CC instead of a shallow full dish piston with 24.0 CC.
The reason being is to try and keep some quinch in the combustion chambers

Thats what I was thinking, and I actually emailed 440 source about whether or not theyre dish or reverse dome, and I will ask if theres a way to get reverse dome with their kit.

Cam around 240@.050
As I said (50 years ago?), that narrows it down to perhaps 20 or 30 cams.
What nominal duration?
What LSA?
What installed ICL?
Single or dual pattern?

The reason being is to try and keep some quinch in the combustion chambers
THIS^^^
Ideally, the dish would be close to a mirror image of the chamber outline (and flush under the head's quench ledge). IMHO the floor need not be flat if you have enough dome thickness - deeper under the intake position @ .200".

My 440/493 kit from 440Source used Ross pistons so it was a while ago. It was a custom 34cc reverse dome that with OOTB 84cc RPM heads, zero deck and a .039 gasket put me at 8.97:1 IIRC. It makes 600 ft/lbs on 87 regular.

In the time it took Ross to finally make the pistons, (3 months. Nice customer service) Brandon had enough orders to make it a shelf stocking piston so I got the custom up charge $$ back. If they still do this piston maybe they can change the pin height for a small fee.


Kevin

Oh ok thank you, so they do offer custom kits, that helps alot. Im not gonna go that low on compression though, im thinking 10-10.5, maybe 11 if i have to for some reason.

If you are getting your kit from 440Source, you should call them. I did mine 12-15 years ago and Ross was his name brand supplier so you could get whatever custom piston they offered.

He has his own house brand piston now and I'm not sure who builds them for him. You would have to call to see if there is any custom options.

Kevin

No carburetor needs more than 6psi. You'll be fine with the Eddy fuel pump. You may still find you need to regulate externally.

yes the 440 source 24cc pistons have a guinch area.

1

11

Ok perfect, that makes things alot easier. I guess I'll be going with them and compression should be at 10:1. Would it hurt that much performance having a little lower compression? I'm assuming I should probably be fine, and when it comes to only a few things, compression especially, I'm willing to sacrifice performance for daily drivability.

Be sure to keep those sharp machined edges exactly as they left the mill, just like jewelry!

Another thing: alot of people were saying I would need a 2"+ compression height piston, but these are 1.867. How much does compression height matter after all of the other things have been worked out?

Turns out they do have a quench area, perfect.

Read... the... books...

If you don't understand the implications of compression heights, you shouldn't be building anything. I'm done with this.

Daily driver that gets 7 miles per gallon, sure.

Absolutely LOL

All done

Ok then bye. But im clearly not building this myself. Hollis Page will be. I apologize for asking questions on a website meant for questions...

your not part of the chosen few

It's hard to communicate via the interweb, especially when the topic is as detailed as what you want.

On top of that, you are like a fart in a skillet. You are all over everywhere. I'm old enough to tell you've I've seen this before. You want to know it all, and know it now. It doesn't work that way. When you struggle with what compression distance is (nothing more that stroke length/rod length/ deck height) and mix things together, no one has any idea if you are actually teaching with what you are being told, or you are getting more confused.


You need to slow down and realize you won't learn this [censored] in a year. Or a decade. It's a lifetime of learning and it only stops when you quit or die.

You need to take this like eating an elephant...you do it one bite at a time. What you are doing is trying to take a sip from a fire hose. Read everything you can. Then reread it. It takes a lifetime.

Questions were answered repeatedly very thuroly, its to bad the answers could not be comprehended.
This is what hotroding has come to, just assembling parts, you dont have to know what your doing just open a catalog or two and buy parts.
I think guys with small block chevys have been doing it for years.

Bull$hit.

It's NOT him being a newbie or whatever. He's asking the same question multiple different ways on multiple threads at a time, yet not HEARING or UNDERSTANDING what people who are trying to tell him that's good advice. And he's coming across like a snarky effin' kid who has no concept that his approach to dealing with people who really DO know more about this subject matter than he does is shrinking the list of people who would otherwise be willing to help him.

THAT'S why I won't respond to his questions anymore.

Frankly....... you should be having these conversations with him.

I understand i wont know everything in one post. Im simply asking questions. And yes im asking alot of different things. I would rather have an idea of what I want to do with each part then build an engine and take another month or two of questions to know what i should get for my rear end. Or suspension. Or brakes. Id rather be able to learn as much as possible at the same time than learn things on at a time. I was simply asking how piston compression height plays a role in this. Everyone has given me answers on everything about the stroker kit, but the compression height is much different than what has been suggested. Im simply trying to know if i would need to get the same kit with pistons that have a higher compression height or not.

Youre right people will simply throw parts together that say “buy this and go fast”. Thats why im here asking questions.

Please tell me what question i have asked repeatedly and not listened to. I wasnt coming off as snarky at all until people were rude for no reason at all.

Well yes of course, but id rather not go to him and ask him to teach me everything, or just simply tell him i want a fast daily driver engine. Id rather go in with this knowledge and have a conversation about what i should get, vs having him tell me what i should do.

Before you argue with everyone here go read the frickin books and get some basic knowledge!

Your acutely proving the point of ignorance on your part. You have been given information multiple times but you're not capable of recognizing the answers.

Get the books.

What answers have i not recognized...

The one you just responded too.

I stopped answering his camshaft questions (I happen to run the exact cam he was considering at the time) after he insulted everybody that didn't provide the exact answer he was looking for. This was a month ago.

"See guys, was that so hard?" Was his response to us.

I'm finished with him.

I said that when someone did actually answer my questions. Most other people either told me to stop asking questions, or told me exactly what they run in a pure race engine.

I find it very amusing that everyone was getting upset for me asking questions on a forum.....something thats meant for questions. Then when i asked people to stop responding rudely i got told to stop being rude...

If you dont like the responses , and you have been give great feedback and now your calling us rude why are you here?

I have gotten good responses. But if you look a majority of it is rudeness that started simply because i asked questions. If questions cant be asked here why is anyone here?

Did you know that we have a search function here on Moparts? Also a tech archive. If you would use those two items you would not have to ask nearly as many questions as you do.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/

Id rather go in with this knowledge and have a conversation about what i should get, vs having him tell me what i should do.

That statement makes absolutely no sense. If Hollis tells you this is what you should get. Then thats what you should do. If Hollis is doing your engine. And any question Hollis answers is teaching you. Heres my advice. Step 1. Either call or go talk to Hollis. Step 2. Tell him you want to build a 440 stroker pump gas engine. Step 3. Tell him the components you are thinking about using. Step 4. Shut up and listen. Then you can spin any questions you may have at him. Sorry if you get offended on here. But I read all the post. And all the post on your other thread. It was painfully bad my man.

which is why people are telling you to go read the books.

That quote wasnt hard at all to understand. I am saying I want to follow those steps. But I'd rather go in understanding my options, than saying "hey build me a daily driver 440" and be done. Id rather know what is in my engine. Please tell me what was bad about my posts.

Well of course. But at the same time those people arent saying that as pieces of advice. Theyre saying shut up and stop asking questions here and read. Why is it so bad to ask questions on a forum.....

500" stroker kit, -24 dished pistons (should be slightly above 10:1 CR), around .040 quench
Bare Trickflow 240, with their valves, springs will be whatever is recommended for the cam
Cam around 240@.050, around .550 lift
Most likely Harland Sharp rocker arms, 1.5 ratio
Holley SD intake
Either 870 CFM Street Avenger, or similar CFM double pumper
440 Source stroker windage tray, oil pan, and oil pickup
1 3/4" Hedman Headers (I would go 1 7/8" but that would cause clearance issues with the pitman arm)
Edelbrock RPM fuel pump? (max pressure is 6 lbs, though)

You stick to what you posted earlier. You will most likely exceed your expectation. That would make good street combo.

That's about 8 grand in parts, you had better start saving your allowance money.

Asking questions on a forum is like withdrawing from a bank of goodwill. If you never make any deposits into that bank then there isn't anything to withdraw. As far as I can tell, you've never provided any answers on this forum. If you never answer any questions yourself then eventually people refuse to answer your questions. Why should anyone help you if you don't help them?

Because is a forum not a place for experts to help out people who dont know as much....I apologize for not having 40 years of engine building experience under my wing. If I had the knowledge you guys do Id gladly be helping out. Also, if I did answer questions in other forums, the people who have been rude here would respond and say "dont listen to this guy he just asked me a million questions, hes a beginner".

The best way I can explain it is this-

I have been following this board for a loooong time and ther big block combo", etc. These threads have been hashed out, compiled and digested over and over before you time and it's important to understand that.

To my point, if you ask what you need to do to make 550hp in a 3800lb car you will get a pile of slam dunk answers. At that point you have solid empirical data from first hand operators. It's okay to ask questions about the information granted to you however it is not typically well received when you challenge first hand information from the hands-on crowd with second-hand information from the web, magazines, etc. If you do inject that sort of thing into the subject prepare to take cover, shots will be fired lol. This forum makes paper magazine obsolete IMO. I haven't picked up a car magazine in years. It happens here in real time.

To finish driving this home I'll use my last engine build as an example. I wanted to make 725-750 hp for my '66 Charger. Pretty straight forward deal with a 4.25" stroke crank, etc. While the 511-512" 400 based short block is customary in the Mopar world I elected to use Edelbrock Victor MW heads against the reports/advice from at least 5 people on the board. Between the casting issues, reportedly inflated CNC ported numbers and midget installed height they were not highly looked upon. The consensus from this board was to build an Indy -1 headed engine with paired rocker gear and be done with it. Tried and true combo right down to the cam shaft selection. No sir, I would not listen to logic. I had to have that MW Victor motor. In the end I'd have probably had the same money in a higher quality, better flowing top end package with less headaches had I gone the -1 route. That resounds with me deeply as my other hotrod has a set of those -1 head and paired Jesel's waiting for it.

I'm laying this out for you so you realize I'm not picking on you having been in the same boat. I'm also saying that arguing magazine articles with a bunch of old grumpy guys that write magazine tech articles is not a winning plan. Work with you engine builder and have faith in his plan to meet your goals. Otherwise you will be effectively second guessing everyone against each other. As you see asking for a HP number that was picked from the air is not a good plan. If you said hey I want my Charger to wax a new 5.0's plastic a$$ they can help you figure out how much power you need and go from there. Shooting for a number for the sake of doing so it cool however you aren't dealing with the Fonzi car show crowd here, there are real gear heads.

I disagree. Most everyone here is more than willing to help a newcomer that appears on the scene with lots of car questions. Not a problem.

But when the person keeps asking the same questions over and over (camshaft powerbands is a good example in this case) and rephrases them in order to get the response he's fishing for, gets the response, and then states to the rest of us "see kids, was that so difficult?"
Well, you get the picture.

And he thinks we're rude.
LOL....OK.

Maybe he is a chevy guy and is just here to aggravate you guys. LOL

That's funny you should say say that, I was going to say "maybe he should build a Chevy"

so please if your new to this site please don't ask any questions. Really

would the bullet be a better place ?

r



I heard LS Chevy engines were a Black Friday item at Walmart

OH HELL yes!

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1212-how-to-calculate-piston-compression-height/

Or maybe ignore that, for the sake of consistency.

I get the frustration from the many asked questions and sadly some peeps on here THINK they're smarter than they are so you get the snuff but don't feel bad, I've been on here for several years and anytime a carb topic comes up w/my name involved, crickets. And as someone eluded to it is a CLICK weather you like it or not and 1/2 you guys should be ashamed for the way you treated a NEW member trying to gain knowledge which we ALL have struggled with over the years............Unlike some of these clowns I will help ya in any way I can with what little info I have.............Dominic 760-900-3895...............

We're friends, so you don't have to mince words: Are you putting me in that '1/2 you guys should be ashamed' group?

Only we can look in the mirror and see the TRUTH so IF you feel you are one then so be it and I wasn't naming names just pointing out how screwed up MOPARTS has become in some cases and I refuse to nor can anyone shut me up or my opinions...........The kid doesn't stand a chance here and wouldn't be surprised if he bailed like so many before him..........

I'm sorry but I am rolling on the floor laughing. Rent due Thumper? Lol

No clue what your asking me............RENT?

You cant help those who will not help them selves.

A forum is not the place for an education, basic knowledge is needed in engin building before you can build for horse power, you can't modify what you dont know.

He has been told repeatedly to obtain books on building the big block mopar, in my world that's good advice.

Unfortunately he blows it off as an insult.

"A forum is not a place for an education."

With all due respect, that is nonsensical. Every site, every location, every situation, every question is a place for an education.

If you don't want to teach then don't. If you don't want to educate then don't. If you don't want to mentor then don't. If you don't want to share your knowledge and/or experiences then don't. And, if you don't want to learn from this site or the vast knowledge that is offered then don't.

There is a wealth of of knowledge on this board. Participants of all levels, but it is painfully obvious there are few that can mentor or educate without taking offense to a learner that questions what is offered.

Furthermore, maybe we all can benefit from learning a lesson, or two, in social media decorum.

thank you on the money

I remember insulting a teacher when I was in the 7th grade, back in the 70's.

I got my face slapped.

I didn't do it again.

But you need basic knowledge to understand the answer to your question.

What the hell is wrong with educating your self so you can comprehend the answer.

It's not up to the people on the forum to dumb down there replys to a newbie who keeps asking the same question in deferant ways and doesn't understand. After all he is the one that wants to know it's up to him to have basic knowledge about what he wants to know.
The person asking questions has a responsibility to know what the hell hes talking about. It's his responsibility!

Your a fool thinking you can get ALL your information from this or any forum.
Of my six children five have chosen higher education, none of them got it from a forum!

Well this got even more interesting really quick, I think I'll just throw in a stock straight six and call it done lol. Thanks to the people that actually helped me, I'll now have my engine builder sit me down and write on a whiteboard for four hours to teach me the few things no one here wanted to answer, since apparently that is what engine builders are for......

"But you need basic knowledge to understand the answer to your question."
True, but acquiring the basics should still be welcomed on this board.

"What the hell is wrong with educating your self so you can comprehend the answer."
Nothing, but isn't that what the OP is doing by asking, and inquiring discussion from those with the knowledge?
Obviously there are many avenues to self-education such as reading the fine books previously suggested, but why should one avenue disqualify another source of information? There's a mass of valuable information, and a wealth of experience, on this site that simply isn't in print anywhere else. Interaction on this site is essentially interaction with many authors. But, I think I understand the offense a little better. Maybe the OP has put the cart before the horse?

"It's not up to the people on the forum to dumb down there replys to a newbie who keeps asking the same question in deferant ways and doesn't understand."
Dumbing it down and explaining in different ways is what an educator/mentor does best. A competent educator finds many ways to relay the same information, for there are many different ways to learn and there are many different learning styles. I'll refer to my previous post about the scarcity of those that can educate/mentor without taking offense to a learner that needs additional explanation.

"The person asking questions has a responsibility to know what the hell hes talking about."
If the OP knew what the hell he was talking about then he wouldn't have to inquire from people that do know what the hell they are talking about.

"Your a fool thinking you can get ALL your information from this or any forum."
Who said anything about "ALL"?

"Well this got even more interesting really quick, I think I'll just throw in a stock straight six and call it done lol. Thanks to the people that actually helped me, I'll now have my engine builder sit me down and write on a whiteboard for four hours to teach me the few things no one here wanted to answer, since apparently that is what engine builders are for......"

#1 Thread Starter, this is what pisses people off. It's snarky.

Maybe a little less snarky in the future? See previous recommendation about decorum.

Best of luck.

I actually didnt add that, I think that was something that the site gave me. Also thanks for helping me out and being a pretty logical person.

We are not educators, just car guys expressing opinions. It's not a responsibility to educate expressing an opinion. I've said it before that you can't learn how to modify for more power if you don't have the basics.

You can ask for opinions and that's what you get, but I dont think theres a responsibility in any way to educate the OP, theres resources for that.
As far as this site being a wealth of information it is, but ONLY if you know how to interpret it.

I didn't realize that averaging cam timing was basic knowledge....even someone else in here compared it to banging your head against a wall. I was asking the same question in different ways because people were avoiding it. However that was what a month or two ago? After I bumped this thread with a different question I was no longer concerned about getting that small cam. I also didnt realize that at college they taught you everything there is to know about building engines....

All I've ever said was to get a book on the big mopar and read it, that's what I did 35 years ago. I had plenty of experience with Ford but I was taking on something new so I bought DC engine book so I new what my engine building buddys were talking about.
I'm sure collage didn't teach you about building bb mopars but it did teach you the value of reading.

We're actually moving away from engine building. We teach less and less every semester. The curriculum is always expanding with new technology and the contact hours are decreasing so somethings gotta go. The Advisory Committee, made up of dealership management and shop owners, keep telling us they just install long blocks and short blocks and our students don't need to know what's beyond a head gasket.
Hell, we don't even take cylinder heads apart anymore. It's nonsense.

But, there are a lot of great sources to learn about engine building choices.
Books, Moparts tech archives, some youtube, manufacturer webpages like https://uempistons.com/ magazine articles, and using the search function on this site to look up a specific topic.
It's all good.

And, college teaching the value of reading? You're giving us way too much credit.

Get Andy's book. It'll help out greatly.

andy's book IS a good one !
sometimes, i feel like i'm a burden to those knowledgeable folks here. i feel pretty bad when i have to ask things that i SHOULD know, but keep forgetting. "oldtimers" disease, ya know ! i guess you guys need to beat me like a rented mule so i remember ......

They are going to give you a Stevanovski beating.

Theres no beating, I like making power with iron heads now I know I can go buy an aluminum head that makes more power way easier and cheaper than grinding up a set of 915s putting in 2.18 and 1.81 valves but I enjoy the work and the reward. I've heard to no end you can't do that or it's a wast of money. I learned how to make power by reading everything I could then asking a few important questions. But 645 hp from 915 heads isn't bad for an old retired fart.