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SB cam retainer question

Posted By: j.mcconnell

SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 04:19 AM

I tore down my ‘73 340 for a cam swap swap last week. Today I was looking over a ‘72 360 that my dad tore down. He showed me the oil slinger off the lower timing gear and I realized my 340 didn’t have one. Do I need that? My timing set cam with a spacer in front of the lower gear. What is the correct location for the slinger if necessary?

In the same conversation he mentioned the thru-drilled bolt on the retainer plate. My motor has the flat retainer, drip wing thing, and 3 solid bolts. Without the drilled bolt I guess the drip wing just directs any oil that is flying around onto the timing chain? This is the only engine I’ve ever built so there’s no chance or swapping hardware and I assume it is the factory setup.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 07:10 AM

I never use the slinger, and I never use the bolt with the hole it in. It does nothing.

Drill a small hole .040ish in the cam retaining plate where it covers the passenger side oil gallery.

That will deliver oil to the chain much better than the goofy slinger or the bolt with the hole in it.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 07:39 AM

Chrysler installed crankshaft oil slingers in every stock V8 motor I have torn apart, they wouldn't have spent the time for the parts and the labor to install them if they though they weren't needed work shruggy They help prevent flooding the timing cover seal with oil slung off the front of the cam gear and timing chain work
I buy new ones from 440 Source now and install them on every new motor I build, they go between the crankshaft timing ear and the dampener, you should install them when your done degreeing the cam and before you install the timing cover up
Posted By: j.mcconnell

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 08:14 AM

Madscientist, I assume you mean the galley that may or may not have plug threaded in it? Mine are plugged.

Motor has 125mi and a bunch or idle time as is, no drilled bolt, and everything looks minty fresh.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 03:57 PM

I'm with Cab, that it helps keep oil away from the seal which mighta been a nightmare of comebacks for Ma back in the day with oil leaks being the cats' a$$ with people complaining about oil stains on their driveway while it was still under warranty. On the other, early or late I forget which used the drip plate & the other used a bolt in the upper pass (iirc) hole with a 1/8" hole in it for drip lube for the chain. I drilled/tapped the front of the pass horizontle oil gallery for an alum pipe plug & drilled a 1/64" (.015") hole in it & a 3/8 hole in the cam plate for a constant mini squirt past the plate out onto the chain. I ain't sure if it is needed or not, that splash might be enough as is but my OCD convinced me that it needed it. Also I drilled the same hole in the pipe plug by the intergear to lube that gear meshing. When you preoil you will be able to see the squirt & contrary to what some say .015" is enough. I ain't sayin you cant drill an iron npt plug with that small of a drill bit (go real slow with lube) but alum is far easier/quicker. EDIT I would use the drip plate if you have it and drill the bolt 1/8" (easy to do & every bit helps).
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By j.mcconnell
Madscientist, I assume you mean the galley that may or may not have plug threaded in it? Mine are plugged.

Motor has 125mi and a bunch or idle time as is, no drilled bolt, and everything looks minty fresh.



I'm talking about the main oil feed gallery that intersects with the lifter bores. There is one down each side of the engine that feeds the lifters. Technically, you could drill a hole in the cam retaining plate where it covers either passage, I just use the passenger side gallery.


Some guys pound soft plugs into the gallery before they put the cam retaining plate on. I've pulled enough known new engines down (you know, new as in first time some joker took them apart) and maybe, maybe 10% had those plugs installed from the factory. Since that was the case, I have never, nor will I ever install a soft plug in those holes. The cam plate more than covers the holes.

If you're still not sure what I'm talking about, just look at the block and the cam plate. That plate is designed to cover those two galleries.

Just drill a small hole in the plate so it breaks into that pressure fed gallery and forget all the other trick crap Chrysler did.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By RapidRobert
I'm with Cab, that it helps keep oil away from the seal which mighta been a nightmare of comebacks for Ma back in the day with oil leaks being the cats' a$$ with people complaining about oil stains on their driveway while it was still under warranty. On the other, early or late I forget which used the drip plate & the other used a bolt in the upper pass (iirc) hole with a 1/8" hole in it for drip lube for the chain. I drilled/tapped the front of the pass horizontle oil gallery for an alum pipe plug & drilled a 1/64" (.015") hole in it & a 3/8 hole in the cam plate for a constant mini squirt past the plate out onto the chain. I ain't sure if it is needed or not, that splash might be enough as is but my OCD convinced me that it needed it. Also I drilled the same hole in the pipe plug by the intergear to lube that gear meshing. When you preoil you will be able to see the squirt & contrary to what some say .015" is enough. I ain't sayin you cant drill an iron npt plug with that small of a drill bit (go real slow with lube) but alum is far easier/quicker. EDIT I would use the drip plate if you have it and drill the bolt 1/8" (easy to do & every bit helps).



The slinger was another way to try and bandaid an oiling issue. That slinger has zero to do with stopping oil leaks past the crank seal. The seal doesn't function that way.

So the slinger isn't needed. It doesn't really do anything. Especially if there is actual pressurized oil getting to the chain.


As for the drip tab...another engineering miracle that didn't do anything. And the bolt with the hole in it is a real head scratcher. The only hole that bolt can go into that can get ANY oil through it is the upper right hole, where it breaks through to the lifter valley. So that will be drip fed oiling. It doesn't do a thing. Zip.


Again, run that stuff if you want. You don't need the slinger. If you are getting pressure fed oil on the chain, the chain itself will sling oil to hell and back and the slinger doesn't affect seal function.

The drip tray is a classic engineering study. Simple, clean, relatively easy to manufacture and worthless as [censored] on a boar hog.

And the bolt with a hole fits the above.

Get pressurized oil on the timing set and forget the stop gap crap.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 04:52 PM

Quote:
Again, run that stuff if you want.
I plan to: bolt hole/drip tray/slinger/.015 squirt.
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 06:41 PM

I always have good intentions of using the slinger, then guess what is left laying on the bench when the motor is all done. It even happened on the stroked 4.0 I built for my jeep. It has the same style slinger, and when I was done building the motor it was laying on the bench. The jeep motor has been in for 14 years and almost 60K miles now, no front seal leak.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 10:21 PM

^^^ Now that you mention it if I remember correctly you posted way back if that was gonna be a problem (it was left out).
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 10:39 PM

The slinger was used to keep oil from flooding the front seal and keep oil on the chain. I haven't used any of it lately. Only thing I have used was the bolt with a hole in it in the top left. There should be plenty of oil coming off the front main to lube the chain. A .040 hole in the retainer with 60PSI behind it will put an awful lot of oil in the timing cover. I spend time reducing internal leaks and make sure the plate is sealed to the machined surface.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/07/18 10:56 PM

Originally Posted By madscientist



The slinger was another way to try and bandaid an oiling issue. That slinger has zero to do with stopping oil leaks past the crank seal. The seal doesn't function that way.






Tell us more.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 01:54 AM

Originally Posted By John_Kunkel
Originally Posted By madscientist



The slinger was another way to try and bandaid an oiling issue. That slinger has zero to do with stopping oil leaks past the crank seal. The seal doesn't function that way.






Tell us more.




What more do you want to know? The slinger won't fix a seal, and it doesn't affect timing chain life. It's useless.

I can have 2 engines, one with the slinger and the other without. The power between the two will be the exact same. Just like the drip tab that is a useless piece of junk to hang in an engine, the slinger does NOTHING.

And the bolt with the hole is a real head scratcher. Some dude went to college to learn to drill a hole in a bolt that does NOTHING, no matter what hole you screw it into.

Guys that this [censored] like voodoo and run slingers with garlic cloves around their necks to scare off oil leaks, have drip tabs on the shelf so they don't run out and have extra bolts with holes in them, but they can't or won't degree a cam.


No wonder this sport is dying. It should die for all the stupid that goes on.
Posted By: Porter67

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 03:19 AM

I guess I fall into the stupid category as my one work truck that turns alot of rpm on the highway, fast stops would drip from the seal without the slinger on the crank, I put it in without a new seal and it stopped. Ive always thought it was a poor slinger but a oil shield.

Sometimes I wonder what accomplishments in life, from moral standing, home life, bank account,children's accomplishments,awards won, records set in there field from some of the self proclaimed experts in the hobby.

Joe Dirt was just a movie and was not real.
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 03:52 AM

Race motor = no slinger, no tab, maybe a bolt with a hole in it if I have one. Timing chain and seal are consumables, don't expect them to last forever. I also try to control internal pressure and the amount of oil spraying around inside.
Street motor that will see miles = slinger, maybe a tab, maybe a hollow bolt if there's one there. Can't hurt.
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 03:56 AM

The oil slinger does have purpose. Is it always needed? No. A timing gear or balancer with an imperfect surface or multiple timing key cuts at thier meeting point will leak through the keyway out of the balancer hub. Not so much a timing cover seal issue. Think of it as a combination seal umbrella/ banjo seal.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 04:58 AM

The hole in the SB timing retainer bolts is normally in the hole that is exposed to the puddle in the cam side of the lifter valley allowing oil to seep through it and drip down onto the steel directional tab onto the chain scope shruggy Cheap and fast for some additional oiling to the SB timing chain, ask Larry Shepard who designed that part originally and which college that engineers degree was from scope grin
The oil singer is designed to sling oil off of it and stop oil from being splashed up into the seal area of the timing chain cover, especially when braking hard shruggy
No magic here whistling
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
The hole in the SB timing retainer bolts is normally in the hole that is exposed to the puddle in the cam side of the lifter valley allowing oil to seep through it and drip down onto the steel directional tab onto the chain scope shruggy Cheap and fast for some additional oiling to the SB timing chain, ask Larry Shepard who designed that part originally and which college that engineers degree was from scope grin
The oil singer is designed to sling oil off of it and stop oil from being splashed up into the seal area of the timing chain cover, especially when braking hard shruggy
No magic here whistling




Thanks for making my point. Neither the slinger, the drip tab or the magic bolt does anything of consequence to oil the timing set.

You can use them, or not and you'll never ever know it.

Or, you can put pressurized oil on the timing set. Nah, why do that?
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 04:53 PM

I personally would rather drip oil that is of no consequence to loosing any amount of oil pressure. Once the oil leaves the galley, it is no longer pressurized oil, it is directed oil. Sort of like the purpose of the bolt/ tab.
We all have preferences. Thinking through the ENTIRE scenario will lead most people to the same or similar solutions.
Is drilling the retainer not splash oiling?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 06:45 PM

Don't forget about the retainer having the slot in it to oil the chain also work scope
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
The hole in the SB timing retainer bolts is normally in the hole that is exposed to the puddle in the cam side of the lifter valley allowing oil to seep through it and drip down onto the steel directional tab onto the chain scope shruggy Cheap and fast for some additional oiling to the SB timing chain, ask Larry Shepard who designed that part originally and which college that engineers degree was from scope grin
The oil singer is designed to sling oil off of it and stop oil from being splashed up into the seal area of the timing chain cover, especially when braking hard shruggy
No magic here whistling




Thanks for making my point. Neither the slinger, the drip tab or the magic bolt does anything of consequence to oil the timing set.

You can use them, or not and you'll never ever know it.

Or, you can put pressurized oil on the timing set. Nah, why do that?


Because we go to great lengths to eliminate internal oil leaks and keep oil on the crank, at least in a performance/race engine. Not drill holes that spray more oil around inside the engine.
Posted By: j.mcconnell

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 08:56 PM

Glad? I could spark up a discussion. Thanks for all the information.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 09:48 PM

I use a slinger on ever big and small block Mopar I build. Nothing else and I’ve never had an issue.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By CMcAllister
Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
The hole in the SB timing retainer bolts is normally in the hole that is exposed to the puddle in the cam side of the lifter valley allowing oil to seep through it and drip down onto the steel directional tab onto the chain scope shruggy Cheap and fast for some additional oiling to the SB timing chain, ask Larry Shepard who designed that part originally and which college that engineers degree was from scope grin
The oil singer is designed to sling oil off of it and stop oil from being splashed up into the seal area of the timing chain cover, especially when braking hard shruggy
No magic here whistling




Thanks for making my point. Neither the slinger, the drip tab or the magic bolt does anything of consequence to oil the timing set.

You can use them, or not and you'll never ever know it.

Or, you can put pressurized oil on the timing set. Nah, why do that?


Because we go to great lengths to eliminate internal oil leaks and keep oil on the crank, at least in a performance/race engine. Not drill holes that spray more oil around inside the engine.




I'm all for controlling oil in an engine, but I'm also sure you need oil on the timing set. If you are THAT worried about oil in the timing chain cover, run a belt drive.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 11:14 PM

Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
I use a slinger on ever big and small block Mopar I build. Nothing else and I’ve never had an issue.


And I agree. You can run them as they wont hurt anything unless you install them backwards, which I've seen enough to know some guys who refuse to degree a cam should also not assemble engines.

If you can't degree a cam or install the slinger correctly pay someone to do it.

In reality, the slinger does very little. It damn sure won't stop a timing seal leak because I've fixed many of those that had slingers.

To me, they are just a little piece of metal that serves no purpose.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By TRENDZ
I personally would rather drip oil that is of no consequence to loosing any amount of oil pressure. Once the oil leaves the galley, it is no longer pressurized oil, it is directed oil. Sort of like the purpose of the bolt/ tab.
We all have preferences. Thinking through the ENTIRE scenario will lead most people to the same or similar solutions.
Is drilling the retainer not splash oiling?



How much pressure can you lose with a .060 hole and that's a damn big hole. I think my last one was .039ish and that's plenty.

There is a difference in the oil coming out of a pressurize gallery and what drips out of a bolt hole from gravity. I have a timing cover I cut open that I use when I run a gear drive and a mechanical fuel pump (another reason to put some oil up there I forgot about...oiling the fuel pump lever and eccentric) and I can also put oil to the system and see what that hole produces for oil to the timing set.

It isn't a drip or a fog or a mist. It comes out at whatever pressure/RPM you are testing at, and it gets the oil on the timing set.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/08/18 11:33 PM

Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By John_Kunkel
Originally Posted By madscientist



The slinger was another way to try and bandaid an oiling issue. That slinger has zero to do with stopping oil leaks past the crank seal. The seal doesn't function that way.






Tell us more.




What more do you want to know? The slinger won't fix a seal, and it doesn't affect timing chain life. It's useless.


My query was regarding your statement "The seal doesn't function that way." If you limit the volume of oil that contacts the seal lip(s) doesn't that help the seal do its job?

In an industry that pinches pennies to save thousands I question the "useless" label. If it was useless it wouldn't be there.
Posted By: Mcode69

Re: SB cam retainer question - 10/09/18 12:31 PM

Just on another note, I have a number of oil slingers with damage from aftermarket timing chain sets, I use them if there is clearance on the chain but lately that seems to be a rare occurrence.
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