DART AGREES TO MAKING SB MOPAR BLOCKS

Reported on Facebook group small block mopar and cylinder head tech. Mason Baxter has confirmed DART will be making small block mopar blocks. Two different deck heights 340 mains 48 and 59 degree GREAT NEWS

Hell yea

Nice!!!

Awesome news

Wow Nice!

Very kool...pre orders?

This is good news, we need to thank Bob Book and Mason Baxter for pushing this

Unreal cool.

Great news, but I'm kinda surprised. I figured there'd be more of a market for aftermarket big blocks.

I do not know Bob Book but these guys need blocks BAD. They agressively aproached Dart after giving Dart the info on how many Mopar guys need blocks. Between A Bodies only, Moparts, and Facebook they showed Dart how many guys are interested. I hope it happenes but if it does happen I hope the Mopar guys come through and do there part. It sounds like Dart wants to start out with two blocks that will be popular with MOST of the engines that we are now building.

Mason Baxter has confirmed DART likes money and attention.

This is not an oath, or a contract. He put his toe in the water to see how much interest there is. If he doesn't get what his accountant tells him (regardless of how accurate it is) will support the R&D (how many thousand units at what price yields how much profit) he'll walk away.
Questions that matter:
"Will deposits and pre-pays guarantee delivery at the stated price?"
"Will this money be in escrow until delivery?".

Way too many of these announcements are a re-play of "Lucy and the football".

John, I agree the SB guys have a real problem getting ANY decent block to build a good engine with. Glad Dart has stepped up! I just thought the BB market would be bigger. Considering the only 2 options BB guys have are Indy or KB, but both being aluminum and expensive. Granted that's more than the SB guys have now. I'm assuming Dart will be making these in cast iron and probably (hopefully) under $4k.

Yes but Dart has a good history and unlike KB for example isnt on the ropes with a line of BS and deception a mile long.

Id have no issues on a deposit to dart as long as a plan was laid out before hand but still knowing there can be variables on a new product.

Id hit one, maybe two, I think its hard to beat modern tech and production ways when its done properly with performance in mind.

Like I said I don't know Bob Book but the words out of his mouth are, the block he needs right now WON'T be one of the two made bucause of the custom block that he needs. But he sounds like a smart man that knows once in production a tweek here and a tweek there it COULD be made down the road.

This is a big deal. Without new blocks IMO the small block mopar was close to end of life.

There is speculation that this will spur the development of more cylinder heads but that is just that, speculation.

I would be surprised if Dart accepts orders until they are ready to ship finished parts but I get surprised a lot.

Mr. Book builds some pretty potent engines. He has been breaking R blocks with fast NA engines in Australian Pro Stock and Comp Eliminator.

I hope this actually happens. I am really surprised with the pending sale of Dart it is happening at all, or even is announced before the new ownership takes over. They will be keeping Maskin I hear but in the end it is a dollars and cents thing.

If the block doesn't cost $999.99 or less, come absolutely perfect for your particular combo and have every bell and whistle I doubt he'll sell 10 blocks to the general public.

The Chrysler people are the cheapest people out there. They can run 10's one stock block and that's good enough.

If they get made, and made for more than 1 production run I'd be stunned.

Hopefully there is a bigger market than most think. I have heard the blueprint engine chevy blocks they use in their crate engines are made by dart. Maybe they could do the same with their mopar crates.

I for one have no problem paying for a good block so were not all cheap a$$ like you think

I don't think it's that Mopar people are cheap. I think they are sick of paying double what other makes cost and being treated like the manufacturer is doing you a favor. If they offer the block at a REASONABLE price point, they will sell. No doubt it will be more than a SBC because the volume will be less.

If Dart commits to it, I expect it will get done and the parts will be good. Plenty of people have talked about it. But here we are. I will be watching this development.

Reasonable (for the buyer): you like the price.
Reasonable (for the seller): completely pays off all R&D time, molds, destructive testing, CNC programs, ads, distributor network requirements, etc. and gives a good ROI (25% annual?).
Even this assumes no failures, delays, strikes, embargoes, recalls.
My dad used to say "Want to sell light bulbs? The first one is $10 million, the 10 millionth one is $1.".

If they can only sell 10 - they won't (doesn't begin to pay for the start-up costs).
If they can only sell 100 they will be $6,000 - and they won't (no buyers).
If they sell 1,000 they will be $1,999 - and they won't (900 will still be on the shelf in a year).

See the problem? There isn't enough volume to permit a low price, and no buyers at all if it's not.

Commits to it?
You think that their principals and stockholders will let them chase $50,000 R&D down a rathole because they had a press conference?
If it won't make money (2 years and no product, costs = projection X 2, only 50 deposits) they eat the losses, and call it off.

I think you guys may be surprised how many of these could sell.

Since the R3 well has basically dried up, class racers and those who want to make more HP than a stock block provides have not had many options. Is it going to blow anyone away from a volume perspective no, but if its reasonable there is a market.

If they're $1999 I'll put my deposit down tomorrow.

Bravo to Book and Mason for getting us this far.

You are NEVER going to pay SBC prices for Chrysler stuff.

Poly laid out the math in fairly clear numbers. A Chrysler block costs about the same to found and machine as a Chevy. Since there are 40:1 Chevy over Chrysler that's an in sue right there.

My bet is at 2k if they require anything but assembly guys are going to [censored]. Can't tell you how many guys bitched at me because the X and R blocks came rough bored and I charged extra to get the block to hone size. Virtually everyone.

Want to know how many Chevy guys bitched about rough bored blocks???? A big fat ZERO.

Katie bar the door if it needs a line hone...and it SHOULD and if it has to be decked (and it SHOULD) the Chrysler guys will [censored] for YEARS.

Fact. I've lived through it.


God knows I want this to happen. Look how bad it was for Ritter to get one up and running.

They need to have one be legal and approved for Stock/Super Stock.

Priblem with Ritter though is he didnt bring a viable product to market. He brought a product that immediately had a bad name. Bad news travels way faster than good news

IF Dart does produce them I don't see them having the problems that Ritter had/has. I hope it happens, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Speaking of class racing, how much more trouble/cost might there be to offer 360 crank journal size blocks once the 340 size is ready? (For Stock classes.)

I wouldn't expect 2k for a block. I figure Dart will have at least $1 million from design to release. $3500 a block means about 285 blocks sold to break even.

Dart will show us how to design, manufacture, and release a quality product. If only Ritter would have done as Dart will, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

This seems the most reasonable and likely scenario posted so far.

If Dart makes it I have ZERO doubt it will be a good piece. Also would not expect then to be under $3K

Hummmmm

4.220 bore
4.25 stroke
475 cubes

Heck i could race it at night, use it to help bailing hay in the daytime

I get it. I knew Kent when he was running the Ritter-Webber record holding Comp car. IIRC the car went 7.77 at 167 or something like that, which for 2000-2001 was impressive.

Ritter didn't have the backing that he needed. So yes, he did release the block too early. What I don't get is how do guys not know what's coming?

Evidently, Ritter has it cleaned up and no body is beating the door down to get them. I don't recall the issues with the first blocks but like I said, Chrysler guys get exactly what they deserve. Very few are willing to pay, be the first, work through the kinks and do some testing.

I've been around way too long to say otherwise. If this deal does happen, the only thing to keep it going is the down under Pro Stock guys.

Now, if you want to rehash the Pro Stock truck debacle we can do that. Because that was the beginning of the end of N/A racing in NHRA. Killing the truck class was not only stupid it was short sighted.

Or...maybe this is what NHRA really wanted. Killing PST certainly hastened the downfall of PS.

I don't think many people have looked at the cost of a Dart block, most of the Big and Little M, or Iron Eagle blocks are closer to the $3K mark, if not over. World blocks aren't any different. I don't imagine they'll be a SHP style block, which is less expensive.

What about at $3,000? $5,000?

I'm stepping out on a flimsy limb but my Ritter block will be coming home next week and QMP said it machined up real nice.

I know all the guys will say "it's not tested, how many problems?, how much more did you spend, ect...

All I can say is it is a real nice piece, I stepped up to the plate and took a swing because I wanted to make some serious steam in a small block.

Kent was up front and very honest,that being said he sold 7 that's right 7 new ones that I know of. I haven't heard a bad word yet on one of the 7 new blocks.

Under 3k and I'm not sure what the machine bill will be but you have to have any new block machined.

Bored to 4.185"
Decked to 9.580"
Line honed
Extra was I had the cam tunnel opened up to 60mm roller

Yea we’re not all cheap asses that’s for sure we stepped out on that limb and worked through the kinks with the old Ritter block. So I’m right there with you man now if we can ever get our damn lifters back from Jesel I’ll start a post to really get everyone talking lol

Jason

Some wont mind one bit paying good money for a good product without alot of the BS and waiting that has plagued the mopar world for far too long.

I feel for the ritter block guys, he couldnt even make a quality R5 to 727 adapter plate, a nice $700 shot in the dark still hanging on my shop wall for the last maybe 8-9 years.

Look
I am routing for any manufacturer that is willing to step up to the plate with their time and money to build us parts. BUT having been in this business for almost 20 years, you can count the bad [censored] small blocks on one hand. Sure the 408 eddie Motors are pretty common but as far as W7,W8 or W9 dang few like one hand few. I have customers all over the planet and other than the Aussies there is dang little demand. Go to the tracks and look around. NOT the mopar only events> I can count the R blocks we sold on one hand and like has been noted most of those went to OZ. Roundy round, and some of the outlaw stuff was pretty hot when they ran but even the most ardent supporters all eventually threw in the towel. I hope they make it and heck build some BB and hemis to while your at it. Todd

If this block actually happens I will probably get one.

I'd just hope for a price under $4k. The Dart Big M and Little M blocks are $3k. Those are NICE blocks. Been running a big inch Little M in the Camaro for over 10 years.

I know a Dart dealer up here. He sells big and little M blocks that are blems for $1300/$1600 last i checked which was a few yrs ago.Maybe more now. Once they get some blems of the new Mopar blocks i'm sure he will have some. I'm thinking about building another SB in the future with w8's or even the new Edelbrock's.

I have been needing another block for years. I continue to look for R3's, but don't hold much hope. Ritter block? Nope. Anyone who would knowingly release blocks with known issues (this assumes he had a few machined to check Quality before releasing), or releases without doing any Quality Control, leaving it to the customers to figure out the problems, will never have my business. I'll wait for Dart.

Me three.

You couldn’t touch an R3 for $1900 10 years ago! Personally I think $3500+ is very realistic. Either way, I’ll be watching. Kind of makes me wish I didn’t buy that 9.0 deal, but oh well!

Myron,
You might be surprised (I was) the blocks that NHRA has approved for Stock Eliminator:

Chrysler Small Block Mopar P5153478AB
Ritter Racing Products XR-1
Ritter Racing Products XR-2

I don't know about the Ritter Blocks but the Mopar Block is a 340. The approval just says small block, no reference to engine size. I am pretty sure in Super Stock they don't care about bearing size, don't know for sure on Stock.

You would just have to check with NHRA to be sure.

Bill

stock per nhra rules is supposed to have the correct journal size, super stock is allowed any size journal, that being said yours may vary

If polys numbers are right and they can get em to $1999 they will have no problem selling 1000, the first two option he listed are right. Also I don't get the whole chevy volume thing, sure there may be a demand for 40 times more blocks but there are 40 blocks available RIGHT NOW and none for the SBM so one decent manufacturer should have no issue selling enough and it would be white noise to come up with another SBC block at this point. As far as the rough bore complaints go, you dont' hear the chevy guys complain about it because they CAN buy a finished block while the mopar guys had NO CHOICE to buy a finished or not block, all the chevy guys that want a finished block buy a finished block, the mopar guys who want a finished block buy an overpriced unfinished block and spend more money finishing it and waiting on the local machine shop pergatory to decide when its getting done. Sure charge us 10% 20% more but don't charge us double for an inferior product then call us tight wads for complaining or flat out not being able to afford it.

I never, ever had a Chevy guy buy a finished bore block. No engine builder with his head out of his ass would do that. You think I'm going to out my name on something I didn't have total control over? Fat chance.

Do we know if they'll be offering billet aluminum small blocks? THAT would be pretty kick-ass.

IMO the problem with a new block is what do you put on top of it?
W7 8 9s are going to cost you some serious $$$$$. Other than the W9, which are running dry, you need to find some cores. GOOD LUCK!!
Now I'm not saying the W series won't make power, they do but sorry guys ancient tech!
Need the update the series with some new casting. P5 come to mind but that is old also and requires a different block which is another problem.
Hard core racers = Limited sales.
Stock LA = Limited sales.
Matt

The new edelbrock head flows right up there with a W8 W9 heads so the heads are not a problem i would bet edelbrock is glad this block is coming out to support there new heads

This kind of news makes me want to build a smallblock again.

Ebrock Victor would fit this bill. I’m sure they’d love to see it happen. It also appears to me there are PLENTY of 8’s/9’s out there for sale. I’m also in belief that a person looking at this block is looking at spending some “serious” $$$.

A friend is currently putting two Victor headed engines together at the moment for customers, they're not going to be huge power things, as the customer doesn't need that. They are the 59* version, but you can see there is a lot of material in them. With blocks readily available, more heads will become available

I would bet i could do it for between $10,000-$14,000 complete.

I looked in the rulebook more and I agree:

BLUEPRINTING
Permitted per NHRA Specifications available from NHRA
Technical Services Department headquarters. Stock, factory
OEM components (unless otherwise specified) must be
retained and remain unaltered (i.e., connecting rods, pushrods,
crankshaft, etc.).

If I could get in the 425" NA and 2+HP/cu.in. range reliably, this would interest me. I know how to do that now, but I like LAs.

Per the NHRA Accepted products list under connecting rods:

360 Main Journal 2.81 Main Housing 3.003 Superceded 360 Block Main Journal 2.5 Main Housing 2.693

A little inconsistent, but I think they are saying 340 blocks are okay as a 360. Obviously if person wanted to do this they would need to check with NHRA.

My buddy scottb, who has posted in this thread has a 417 W8 motor that will easily make more than 800 horsepower that i think he built for within the above price range.
Its coming to life here in the next several days. Hopefully he sees this and comments on cost.

I have around 10k in my motor BPE crank scat rods ARP 2000 bolts JE pistons W9 heads done by Modern Cylinder Head all machine work done by Ryan at shady dell and ported intake by Ryan