BB Street heads for mild 505

Current combo is a 10-1 505 with box stock stealth heads and comp xe hydraulic flat tappet 240/246 507/510 110 and 850 carb. Assuming I wanted to keep this cam but open to the idea of changing heads to gain more power (provided the gains would be fairly substantial)....Which heads would you recommend? It's a street car with a 4 speed 3.55's.

Just in the idea phase and no ideas are bad ones right now

Thanks!

Sell the Stealths and look into buying a set of Trickflow heads.

Send the Stealths to Modern Cylinder head for CNC porting.

Sell the Stealths and step up to a max wedge port size or bigger
My old pump gas Duster ran high 10.60s with ported big valve 906, ran 10.30 with CNC ported eddy RPM and ran 9.993 with a set of Indy SR M.W. size intake ports non CNC ported
I did dyno test a set of CNC ported 440-1 on that motor and they where 50 HP better than the SR M.W. heads, I put the ported 440-1 on my bracket race 526 C.I. high deck 440 motor to sell it
Bottom line is more air, more fuel, more power

Assuming you want to keep the same cam, what is the usable rpm range of that cam and valvetrain ? If the motor would be limited to say 6,000 rpm, a smaller port head MIGHT be a wise choice, especially with a 3.55 and 4 speed. A comparison of dyno sheets would be nice to see between small and large port heads on a +500 inch motor

I am torn between STD and MW ports for my 493 re-fresh

A bigger carb would help[1050],IMO.See if you can borrow 1 1st.

That's close to the 505 combination in my Coronet. 440 source kit with 17cc dished pistons. My stealth heads have been slightly ported, cleaned-up, and multi-angle valve job and now flow a true 290+ cfm with pretty good lower lift flow numbers. They can be ported even more, but I'm running a mild Hydraulic roller cam, Comp XR286HR-10, with HS 1.6:1 rocker arms.

I bought the Trick Flow 240s (TFS-6161T784-C00) for another 505 engine. They are pretty nice, and flowed as advertised out of the box. They recommend a slightly different version of the Harlan Sharpe rocker arms S70016KE, but I haven't compared the two sets to see what the difference is? The smaller chamber would raise your compression ratio also. For this new 505, I am using the 27cc dish pistons to keep compression down for junk gas, but using a slightly larger solid roller cam, Lunati Voodoo 40230732LK, 243/249 @ 0.050".

If your looking to build a wilder, higher HP engine, then start with the larger Max Wedge sized port heads (Trick Flow 270) and intake, and get a larger cam.

I don't expect to spin this past 6 grand.

Great ideas. I'm also curious to know if Max wedge ports would be beneficial in a lower rpm set up like this? So if I wanted to run trick flows, I would need special 1000 dollar rockers? Makes them not such a great bargain. I guess if you need rockers anyway...

Good info, Cab. The 906 to CNC eddys is probably the type of switch I'd be looking at. That picked up quite a bit. Just head swap and no other changes?

I would hate to see you dump 1000.00 more into a set of Stealth heads having them ported and then crack like another member recently posted. The Stealths have their place for many and can easily flow 300 cfm but and I’ll leave it at but.

I agree!

I was thinking the same thing ^,
the stealth heads are nice for a milder stuff, but if you are going to port them to flow high numbers, it seems much more effective to just buy the trickflow heads.

I wouldn't put more money into them.

on your port size, it's a big motor, I'd be considering MW port heads...you ever think you might step up the cam size???

Change the cam when the new or updated heads go on.

I had my stealth mildly ported 2 years ago. Gains were minimal. (Maybe 1/2 tenth in the 1/4). Last fall I bought a set of TF 240s and picked up 3 1/2 tenths. (Not a total apples to apples comparison as I did go to a smaller cam, smaller tube headers and up my compression by about 1/2 pt).

If I had to do over again, I would never had the stealths ported, I would have just bought the TF 240..

I agree. My 500 loved my old 690 lift cam and the springs lasted forever. May not be what you are looking for but hey, we are good at spending others guys money. Lol.

The ootb stealth vs RPM vs ported vs ootb TF 240 on a pretty hot street 505 type build would be an interesting and fun dyno thrash.

Oh sure, next thing you know it's a race car!

Is there anything else.

While we are on the subject of the Trickflow heads...

The softest springs in the Trickflow heads are probably good for all Hydraulic cams?

Are they OK for any mild Solid lifter cams or would the best thing to do is the mid level springs?

That might be something the OP wants to look since he can get either spring package in those heads for basically the same price.

Yes, yes it would!

Could you get right on that for us?

Eddys and Stealths are the same head internally as the same CNC program is used on both, correct? It would be interesting to see CNC Stealth/Eddy vs. TF 240 as the flow numbers I've seen look very similar. Granted, flow is never the whole story..

Agreed that would be awesome, Dwayne...ahem

Are Indy EZs not even in this conversation?

Another vote for trick flow 240 for your combo.
Hoping to hit the 9's when air turns better so far best 10.04 with mine

If I did the test(which isn’t likely), the stealths and rpms would only get mildly ported.
The cnc stealths cost the same as the TF 240’s, so for that price which head to buy is a no brainer(to me).
To buy some rpms and have them cnc’d, it’s even more expensive than the TF heads..... so again, a no brainer.

Power wise, I think a prepped EZ would be in the hunt, but they would be even more expensive.

For me the question I’d be looking to have answered is...... for “x” amount of additional dollars spent over the cost of ootb Stealths or RPM’s, or even when updating the heads with some mild porting, vs the ootb TF240’s..... how much extra power do you get for your $$?

I’d have it where all the heads had the same chamber volume to eliminate that variable, and build the long block with the intention of making 600-625hp with the mildly reworked RPM heads, then see how the other heads compare at that power level.

Both sets of those heads had 84.0 CC so no other changes on that swap, it had 9.25 to 1 compression ratio
The next change I did was to swap the crankshaft from the 4.250 stroke to 4.300 stroke to raise the pistons up so I got 10.3 to 1 compression the next winter Every time I swapped parts on that motor the car got quicker and faster, lots of fun

Exactly the info I would love to see. I'll wait for your results before firing up the credit card!

It's fun making changes and seeing the improvements at the track!

If you’re going to wait for those results to come from me, your credit card is plenty safe.

I haven't done a back to back test with Stealth or RPM heads vs. the Trick Flow heads but I've built a few engines with each. The Trick Flow heads make more power that OOTB Edelbrock heads that is for sure. I'd say around 50 hp more with a street cam and up to 100 hp more with a race cam. Which makes sense when you look at the flow charts and use the old 2 hp per cfm rule.

My pump gas 470 makes 700 hp with the 240 heads. If I put OOTB Edelbrock heads on there I'm sure it would drop it down into the low 600 range. I've tested enough 600 hp Edelbrock engines to know about where they end up on the dyno.

For Tony's engine I'd predict about 50 hp increase with the TF heads with a modest performance cam. I like the Mopar .528 solid in an engine like that or something similar. Mild enough to drive on the street without beating you to death but has just enough area under the curve to pull hard to 6000 rpm and make 550 or 600 hp.

I would go mid level

Tex

yes that was a bummer
BUT
these heads were great for a number of years on 2 motors . They were the best bang for buck at the time . The TF now kills them , unless you want stock look

Tex

3 years, 4700 miles and zero issues with Stealths. Would probably purchase Trickflows today, though...

Flying under the radar is cool, though.

Thanks Andy. It seems like starting from scratch, the tf240's are the way to go, hands down. If you need rockers, pushrods and a head capable of 700+ hp. I'm sure it would not make great sense for me to shell out 3 grand to gain 50 hp. If my crane Gold rockers could work and then I sell the stealths, it makes a little more sense. And I'm not totally opposed to cam change for bigger gains.

The Crane golds will work on the TF heads but you will need a few longer head bolts, longer pushrods, and some longer rocker shaft hold down screws. Cam choice for a street car depends on driver preference. It all depends on how you like the cam you have now or if you can live with something a little bigger.

Assuming this is a heavy street car with a 3.55 gear and a wide ratio 4 speed, torque on the bottom half of each gear is going to be VERY important. That is the first thing that came to mind; which head will give you killer torque down low and still be respectable from say 5000 rpm on up. The second is, is that cam a good grind for bigger heads?

I am talking 5 years or so at 6-8000mls per year plus monthly bracket racing


Tex

I kept hearing you need special Harland sharps, its good to know that my golds can work. Pushrods and bolts are no biggie. Thanks Andy

What is the cars current performance, and where do you want it to be?
I think the 0.507"/0.510" lift cam is going to limit the heads flow.
I think if you clean-up the stealth ports and bowl area a bit and have a multi-angle valve job done it will help the port flow better in the lower lift areas below 0.500" lift, and should not cost too much if you can do some hand porting? I would gasket match the ports and intake manifold. Not sure what manifold your using? If the performance is ok, and just looking for a bit more, I don't see the value of spending thousands of dollars to change up the combination?

All very sound advice! It really makes no sense that I'm looking into new heads for a car I havnt even raced yet, and will most likely only race a handful of times. I guess I just like to have as much at my disposal as possible. That's where my judgement sometimes gets clouded!

Currently I have a torker 11 intake. That's going too! I like the cam because it has very nice street manners, and it actually makes pretty good power. It's not the first time I've put something together that only made sense to me

The Trick Flow heads need short rocker arms. The typical HS rocker arms are too long so they made shorter ones to fit the TF heads. But Crane rockers are short to start with so they fit.

I'm not sure how accurate this info is on the stealth head flow numbers out of the box, but I found this Hot Rod article where max flow was only 158.5 @ 0.500"
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-1205-big-block-cylinder-head-testing-flow-charts/

This is what my stealth heads flowed with just a bit of hand porting (gasket match, bowl blending, and valve job.) Not a huge improvement like CNC porting, but basically just cost me some time and the money for the valve job (and extra to flow the head just to see where it was at.)

Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" / 82 / 81
0.200" / 157 / 127
0.300" / 221 / 151
0.400" / 260 / 174
0.500" / 278 / 190
0.600" / 283 / 200
0.700" / 289 / 211
0.800" / 289 / 215

I posted this way back in Jan, 2013 when I was putting the engine together.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1024402

That's good info. Do the stealths really flow that poorly at .500?? That's really bad, even on the exhaust side.

The flow bench that my heads were flowed on is an older SF-110 model. I think the cylinder bore size was only 4.25". Not sure what entry radius, if any was used?
I have had 4 heads flowed on that machine, so I just compare what the different heads flowed, and the last 3 seemed reasonable, if not a bit low. The last head flowed at that shop were the Trick Flow 240's and the results were all messed up, not sure if something was going wrong with the test or machine, but the numbers were way low. Took the heads to another shop with a newer SF-1020 flow bench and the flow results were very close to the advertised ratings from Trick Flow.

I am curious as since I put my eng in my 63 together in 2011 I have not looked hard at bigblock heads. And I was curious if the Trick Flows use raised exh ports or standard height exh ports ? I really have not looked into them as I have no plans to change anything big on my car. I do know in 2011 when I bought aluminum heads I went with the basic Indy SEZ heads I bought from Dwayne Porter and he sold them to me for a good reasonable price. There was no Trick Flow heads in 2011 when I built my 493. Dwayne opened up the intake ports to max wedge size as I figured why not in case I want to step it up some later. But I liked the fact the SEZ heads have standard exh ports and I did not need to buy offset rockers or did not need to use external oiling to the heads and could use standard headers. I wanted to keep my eng build very basic and simple since I drive it a lot on the street. I am curious as to how the Indy SEZ heads compare to the Trick flows in performance and price today ? I don't seem to here as much about the Indy SEZ and EZ heads since the Trick Flows came out. Ron

Ootb stealth from a few months ago vs valve job, back cut, bowl blend.

28”, 4.375 bore, radius inlet plate, no tube on ex

Ootb:
Lift——in/ex
.100—65.7/51.8
.200–134.8/101.2
.300–197.2/135.4
.400–241.2/159.0
.450–248.7/167.1
.500–254.3/174.4
.550–256.1/179.8
.600–256.9/184.2

2 mins(or less) in the intake bowl will get it into the 260’s

Cut seats, back cut valves, blend bowls:
Lift——in/ex
.100—72.1/59.1
.200–147.6/112.2
.300–210.4/144.4
.400–254.3/166.4
.450–267.4/176.1
.500–273.7/185.9
.550–277.5/193.2
.600–280.5/198.1

So, if the theory of 1cfm per 2hp is correct, that small amount of head work may equal a 40hp improvement ?? That's money well spent

Ron - I don't think you could have put together a better working combination for the money. Well done!

On a build where the hp/ci is about 1.1, I don’t think you’d see 2hp/cfm gain.

whats the cost of back cut, valve job and bowl blend?

Starting with new** stealth heads........
-disassemble
-measure guides *
-machine and finish grind seats
-back cut valves
-blend bowls
-flow test one cylinder
-jet wash heads
-test springs
-reassemble heads
——————
$450

*if guides need honing it will be an extra charge

**Used heads will need to be jet washed and bead blasted prior to the seats being cut and bowls blended, and the valves will also need to be cleaned, bead blasted, and refaced..... all of which will add $150 to the total.

Thank you Tony. Ron

I know they are a performace based stock upgrade,but where would the Edelbrock E-Street heads fall in power production here? What are their power to cubic inch levels and limitations? Would they be better for the anticipated street torque levels and driveability with the high axle gear ratio? ...sorry for all the questions!

Power potential wise, the E street is the same as the RPM.
It’s the same casting.

Is it just a smaller chamber ?

They come in 75 or 84 cc versions.

May have been said but why not just cnc your heads and maybe some 1.6 rockers(intake anyway) if you are happy with what you have?

Pulled the trigger on the TF 240's. Man they look nice! Note to self: remember, stay the course, this is not a race car

Even with a mild cam those heads will make the car feel like a race car when you put your foot into it. They really work.

Looking forward to getting it going!

They look good Tony. Very nice choice and good luck with it. Ron

If I were building another BB, it would most certainly get Trickflows.

Planning on a 3rd gen HEMI for the next engine, though...

383man - Thanks Ron!

Gy3 - yeah, the TFs seem like a great choice for anything between mild stock replacement and full race, but your car is running great as is. I like the Gen3 hemi stuff too. I'd like to do an A body with that.

Glad to here you picked the 240s. Since you have a street (read,, heavy) car, 3.55 gears and a 4 spd, i definately think that is the right choice.

I do not like the cam but would only change one thing at a time
High velocity for the heads on a street car
you are only 15% bigger than stock and not revving past 6000 I do not think you need MW ports
check the width of the stripe of a sharpie on the tip of your valve stem and let's see how your current geometry is
time to get it spot on with the change
posted at the end of pg one I'll read the rest

Congrats! Definitely a nice choice there.

I agree,Greg. Thanks

Thanks Wyrmrider. I know a hydraulic roller (or solid) will make more power, but the xe284 is already in and running. That aside, I do think the "size" is about right for my intended purpose.

Thanks Zippy!

All in all, for a street driven car, especially geared the way yours is, torque is king! I have a somewhat similar situation; 2.97 low stick, 3.55 gears, 3800 lb car. Most of the fun driving is in the lower half of each gear. It may not have the ultimate combo for best ET, but it is the best "fun" combo for street IMHO!!

So funny. I just read through the rest of the thread, I'm definitely going to steal that..."story of my life"

"It's not a race car. It's not a race car."
We keep telling ourselves that. And yet..........

My "voice of experience" says that you could spend a week on the dyno testing cams only to discover that the XE284 is roughly correct for your application. You might find cams that made more peak power, or ones with more bottom end torque, but I'd be surprised if you found a cam that made a lot more power at every point in the curve.

What are you drivin, Greg?

We're both nuts

You would know. Your cam comparo with the mopar 528, racer brown, comp hydraulic, etc. proved that. Not exactly apples to apples w my combo, but iirc, those cams were all fairly close to one another in terms of power.

It is an 06 Mustang GT with a blower, making about 500 hp. The gears and torque curve are well suited to a street car. Lots of low rpm punch, and i don't have to rev it real high to step out smartly.

sweet!

I was looking at this same sort of deal last year, and can offer what my experience was. I penciled out selling my 7 year old Stealths and getting into something new. But my math suggested it was still much more budget friendly to send my Stealths to Modern. About $400 still in my pocket is what I figured. Funds that could go to something else. They may or may not be equal to a set of TF240’s (I know... they arent), But they’re real close and I have the reassurance of knowing they’ve been prepped by one of the best head shops in the country.

I picked up a solid 2-1/2 tenths with the work and no other changes. My plans are to go to 1.6 rockers soon to make better use of the heads potential. My cam is .573 gross / .555 net lift with the current 1.5 rockers. The heads max out at a little over .600, so math suggests I may be leaving a little flow on the table.

I’m sure I’d be happy with new 240’s as well, but I’m cheap and the portwork was more within my budget. I also like the stock look of the Stealth head. It fits the stock vibe of my car, as I still run stock rocker covers, a dual plane intake, and all stock belt driven accessories, all painted up to look factory correct.

BTW: Count me in the camp that would LOVE to see the Dyno test described by Dwayne earlier in this thread!

I think you got a pretty good gain from the cnc port work. I thought about porting my stealths too, but I figured cost wise, I'll just sell the stealths to offset the TF cost. I also wasnt as concerned about stock appearance, which is not typically the case for me. Not caring about stock appearance is actually freeing in a way...

Well, after thinking about it, I did decide to change the cam. I figured as long as Im changing rockers and need new pushrods (and the winter is long), I may as well try to optimize this combo. After speaking w Dwayne about my goals and driving needs, we ordered up a solid FT Comp cam. Here is a quick comparo of the new vs old grind:

Old - Hydraulic ft: 240/246@.050, .507/.510, 110lsa

New - Solid ft - 248/252@.050, .538/.544, 110lsa

So, not a ton different, but should make more power and take better advantage of the TF 240's.

Also, picked up a sweet 950 carb from BradH (to replace the 830 QF elec choke carb). Brads carb looks amazing and nicely baselined for my combo. He also Included a detailed build sheet and even some extras for tuning. He knows his stuff! Can't wait to get this engine running again. For now, it's just a deep freeze.

Factoring in lash, they look almost identical. I too would always lean toward a soild.

No other changes other than removing a set of CAT brand 1/6 ratio rockers to a set of Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio rockers due to the CAT eating up their shafts both sets of heads had 84.0 CC so the motor kept same the 9.25 to 1 compression ratio

Thanks, but please hold off on the praise until you're happy with how it's working.

yeah, I like solids too. After having to replace 2 hydraulic rollers in my last engine, and never having an issue w 3 previous engines that had solid FT's, I decided to go w the solid. Also a change from my previous self, I asked for the size smaller than the original cam recommendation. Formerly, would have asked for the next size up . I've definitely gone soft.

Fair enough. So far you're 10 for 10 in 2 of the 3 categories

Cool, a little progress.

That's sort of a race carburetor isn't it?

(Edited my signature to reflect the sentiment posted earlier)

Hmmmm...
Bang for the buck = 10
Shiny factor = 10
Performance = TBD

Actually, I guess you're 3 for 4 then. I'll rate you a 10 in customer service as well.

I thought the shiny/billet factor counted twice.

I forgot, Shiny and Billet are two separate scoring categories... silly me.

Finished the trick flow 240 and cam swap and so far I am extremely happy. No dyno numbers but mash the pedal and smiles appear .
Still need to try out my new Brad H carb, but also need to install some stickier tires. I'll try to upload a vid clip as well. Love the sound w/ the new comp cam solid. All in all, I am happy I made the changes.

Great update, looks fantastic. Looking forward to the video.

yeah, never posted a video and not really sure how.. I tried uploading on photobucket and it keeps failing. I suppose I could figure out youtube like the billions of other people

Just upload to YouTube and then copy the link here and it will work. Have some 8 year old kid in the neighborhood show you how to upload to YouTube!

I was hoping to hear you were running the new carb already...

Looks sweet, regardless.

Sweet honey barbecue! That is gorgeous!

Ok turns out I'm as smart as an 8 year old . Here's a little comparo of the 2 combos.

505 w TF 240s and comp 248@.050 solid ft
https://youtu.be/YaUWBji1674

505 w stealths and comp xe 284 240@.050 hydraulic ft
https://youtu.be/6bj5dsdibzI

very nice.

I know you cheated. I saw a second grader sitting at your computer earlier.

On a somewhat related note, I've dyno tested two 500 inch Mopar big blocks this week with Trick Flow 240 heads and hyd roller cams. Both engines required a bunch of fuel and timing at cruise to keep from burning up the exhaust. The big problem was right around 2000 rpm with a slight load. Roughly equal to driving down a flat freeway at 70 mph. The tune file that was working in my Coronet last summer would not work in either of these engines. The EGTs would go skyhigh and the engine would shut down. We ended up adding a bunch of timing (35 to 40 degrees) and adding some fuel and then they were happy.

I do not know what is going on but I suspect it has to do with how well the Trick Flow 240 heads flow at low lift. Perhaps the intake charge is getting sucked into the exhaust or something like that. Anyway, just keep an eye on your engine if you are out cruising on the freeway. Your carb might fat enough already but I really doubt you have much ignition advance at 2000 rpm since you don't have vacuum advance on that MSD. So you are probably running low to mid 30's and you don't have any way to get more advance than that.

i think the tf240 with the solid cam sounds better...

would spreading the LSA on the cam help with that cruise quirk??

Sounds great Tony!!

Looks great too........ luv the painted wheels on it!!

Absolutely bad ass. I love the exhaust note.

Nice car, Tony....very cool indeed

That's great info Andy. I did change the advance bushing in the dist should give me about 20 degrees initial at 36 total. Also swapped out the springs to lighter ones. Funny you say this because on initial startup for cam break in, ( although it started up perfectly on my initial dist setting), the header tubes started to glow after a couple minutes. It was running great so my buddy wasnt quick on the timing light. Once he noticed the headers glowing I just shut it down. Started back up and and saw the timing was at 30. Bumped it up to 34 and glowing stopped and was fine for the remainder of cam break in. Not sure where jetting is at, but I'll definitely keep an eye on that too. I only drove it a couple miles and no freeway time yet. All i know is it feels much faster than the old set up.

Thanks Zippy, Brad, GY3, BSB67, Krautrock, MarkM and Fast68 for the nice words. A special thanks to Dwayne for the custom Comp cam and also for your great technical advice .

As for the exhaust tone, I also agree the new set up sounds better. Hard to tell from the videos, but the solid ft is not much noisier at all. The car overall is louder, but I am OK with that .

When are you planning to do the carb swap?

Maybe this weekend or Monday, if weather cooperates. I'm looking forward to it! I'll definitely keep you posted.

Got an early start on installing the new Brad H carb. It was just about dead on out of the box! Havnt road tested yet, but so far works nice, and looks sweet too!



I think these will work better than the radial ta's

Tony - Are you sending the carb back for a refund or what?

No way, Brad. Running great ootb, but I do appreciate the extra tuning parts you uncluded w the carb. See, here's video proof of it running with the Brad950...it's been road tested too and pulls strong w no stumbles or hesitation

https://youtu.be/BaOzBbh5YNg

I greatly prefer that idle quality and rpm to the other two
But I tend to like it on the faster side.

Here is a link to my pile-0-Krap
(Brad helped me out as well, with calibration advice)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB34vRlCKtQ

Yeah, the other videos were taken a little prematurely when the car was cold. Brad also reminded me
I should try to keep the idle up at least 1k to try to keep as much oil splashing on the solid ft cam. Your car sounds awesome! Definitely something serious under the hood

Cold explains alot of it, then.

Agree 100% for oiling, and thanks...just thought it'd be fun to compare, I clicked back and forth
between yours/mine a couple times

I just tried that too. Your car sounds better IMO. Its got a little more chop to it, which I like. Car looks sweet too, a classic mopar street beast! Checking the gas station for victims ...

Ah, it's probably just smaller CI and bigger (duration) cam.

The body is pretty bad. ...It looks best in the dark

But thank you just the same

I've heard the same thing about my body as well...…...and the car too

Just a quick update. I ordered a set of advance bushings for my MSD pro billet so I could run 20* initial and 34 total. The biggest bushing in the kit that comes w the dist is 18* and only allows for 16 initial, if u need 34 total. Anyhow, board member crackedback makes a 10* and 14* advance bushing, and I can confirm that his 14 is dead on. 22 bucks for both and very quick shipping. Another Moparts member coming through with a nice product