Super Sniper install

Got the new Super Sniper throttle body setup for my Coronet and have starting to install it. In theory they just bolt on with a few connections but this one isn't going on so easily. One wiring harness was missing out of the package and the secondary linkage is missing off of the throttle body. Holley must be making these things so fast that they are forgetting to put all the parts in the box.

The Sniper is wider than a carb so the throttle cable doesn't line up. That could be a problem with a lot of existing throttle brackets. I'm just going to make a new set of brackets that are offset an inch and see how that works.

It looks like your bracket is 2 pieces, maybe unbolt and turn it to the out side?

My standard sniper that I put on my 73 F100 still doesn't have the trans kickdown/servo lever hooked up.

I need to make a bracket for it.

The install was definitely MORE than a 4 wire hookup. LOL

Fuel system was the biggest pita but also had to do an air cleaner mod.

Looks like that would work!

The front fuel inlets on the Sniper body are mounted really high so the fittings will run into the air cleaner base. The instructions don't mention it, but Holley sells a special Sniper air filter base. Not sure why the instructions don't point it out, seems like it could help guys out with a problem.

I bought one of the Sniper air cleaner bases but I don't think I'll use it. I decided to use the fuel fittings on the back of the throttle body rather than the front ones. The Sniper base if kind of flat while my old K&N base seemed to have a better shape to it for air flow. I haven't tested either one but the K&N just looks better so I'm going to use it.

Watching with extreme enthusiasm Andy. I'm about to install the same setup on my Charger along with the Holley Dual Sync I purchased from you. I knew about the air cleaner for the throttle body. Lot's more info on the Holley forums and sites. I do read about quite a few IAC issues on the Holley Sniper forums on FB as well. I've installed a FiTech, an Edelbrock on customers cars, however never a Holley so my car will be the ginny pig.

The dual sync distributor should work well with the Sniper. I'm waiting for the new Hyperspark ignition stuff from Holley to start showing up. The Hyperspark is all designed to plug and play with the Sniper so it will be a clean install. The dual sync is a pretty clean install though and it is Hall effect so that is better than trying to use a MSD distributor.

Sounds great Andy. Looking forward to seeing how you address the throttle linkage.

I had to cut off my throttle arm and reverse
it and weld it back on to get my cable to line
up correctly.. was about 1 1/4" off.. ths was
on my HP throttle body.. minor issue when you
build the whole car

Hey Andy, who makes the black water neck/sensor piece?

I made that. I made a few extras, haven't decided to put them on the website or not.

Damn that's sweet. PM me about a price Andy.

Thanks. You can get water neck spacers from Summit but sometimes the quality isn't super high. I've tried a few different brands in the past and sometimes they don't work with a thermostat or else there isn't enough wall thickness for the sensor threads.

I will take one. I like it. Very clean. I can run my EFI temp off it like you did. Then run my Mercedes fan controller off the other. Very trick Andy.

I kinda figured that, and it looked like something you'd do. Pm me a price if they're not all spoken for already.

For what it's worth I've got the same throttle bracket and the 4 injector model lines up just a hair off center.

I'm a buyer Andy if you decide to make any.

Referencing of course the thermostat adapter.

For that little bit I would just bend the linkage bracket
a bit to line it up... just up from the intake

Yeah looks like your throttle linkage lines up a bit better. You can probably tweak the lower bracket over a bit and get things lined up even better.

Andy, do you plan on testing the Super Sniper 4500 at any time?

No, I do not have any plans to run the Sniper 4500. I'm a little over committed on projects right now so I'm not looking to take on anything else.

Apologies for the hijack here but what studs are you using on the water pump to block? I've had a gasket go behind the motor plate at the track before, this set up would make it a bit easier.
TIA

I built a bracket to hold the digital dash screen where the radio used to be in my Coronet. I'll give this a try to see how it works. I'm sure I'll change the design over time but this was quick and easy to build for now.

Awesome Andy. Would like to see some more pics of your car.

Just an old Coronet. It was a street racer back in the 80's and then I was going to drag race it in the 90's but I never really got serious about it. Now I'm slowly piecing it back together and trying to fix it up a little. It is a little too loud and uncomfortable to be a daily driver. I think the EFI will tone it down a little but I might need to change the cam or do something else. I'll probably down size the exhaust from 3 inch to 2.5 inch over the winter to see if that makes it better.

Beautiful car Andy!!

put me down for one of the thermostat housing adapters as well!

The one I got has the sensor sticking too far into the thermostat well, interfering with my hi-flow t-stat...

Beautiful car and wheels! What type of wheels if you don't mind?

Fikse wheels, Porsche brakes.

nice car Andy.....put me down for one of the thermostat housing adapters as well!

Just curious why you stuck with the throttle body type system here and didn't go with sequential/multi port like we've seen on your other projects?

Keeping it simple or...?

Are TB systems getting more precise?

That is an interesting question, I had to think for awhile on the answer. I guess it boils down to wanting to have actual hands on experience with as many different flavors of EFI as possible. I'm trying to develop some expertise on the subject and the only way to do that is to actually get my hands dirty with multiple installs and to tune different engines with different systems.

I think the Super Sniper is good enough for what I want to do with the Coronet but we'll see. I won't know unless I try.

I got the car fired up with the Super Sniper and took it for a drive. It runs better with the Sniper than it did with a carb that is for sure. Starts easier and warms up without having to pump the throttle or hold it at a higher speed.

I rolled into the throttle a little bit during the drive and the car just took off. Way more throttle response than the carb ever had. I think it is because the Sniper has 1:1 throttle linkage while carbs usually have a progressive linkage. That 1:1 linkage might be too much with an engine like this so I'll see if I can switch over to a progressive linkage.

The FITech has 1:1 linkage also... It took a little getting used to pulling away from a light without the car jumping on the converter.

I did notice my lean limit before I run into surge is leaner than the carb, and I attributed that to more uniform air and fuel distribution between the cylinders. But I haven't verified that with 8 WRO2s, haha.

I'm going to switch over to a progressive linkage. I think the 1:1 is unsafe on the street with a big engine. I did some data logging and at 4000 rpm I'm only at 25% throttle opening. 4000 rpm with a 512 inch engine is starting to make some noise and is really moving the car along so it is crazy that it is only 25% throttle opening. That means my street driving is confined to just a tiny bit of throttle travel. The 1:1 might work okay at the track but it is way too sensitive in my car for street driving.

Is the software compatible with a progressive throttle? You need to be able to tell it at what throttle position value the secondary blades come into play so it can fire the rear injectors and also to shut them off below that throttle position.

Kevin

Yes, it will handle progressive linkage.

I've been doing some tuning today. The data logging feature is really nice. I took the car for a 20 minute drive around town and on the freeway and left the data logger on the whole time. That allowed me to look at a bunch of test points to see how the car is running. Everything looks pretty good except for AFR at idle. It was a little rich so I leaned it out and now we'll see how she runs.

Cold start up is really nice but hot start up isn't. Not sure if it is too rich at hot start up or what so I need to see if I can figure that out.

I think this setup would work pretty well on a 500 to 600 hp bracket car. The data logging would be a nice feature to have on most cars and the closed loop tuning would also be nice for a lot of cars.

I wouldn't get get too excited about idle AFR if your cam has any serious overlap.

Make it idle happy and let the AFR land where it lands.

My stone age 950 Commander TBI wouldn't idle consistently closed loop with an MP509. It would idles nice and clean and the next time you started it, it would barely run. We had to run it A/N to 1800 and have it switch to make it behave. Apples to oranges maybe compared to the new stuff but it just could not deal with low speed reversion.

I think this might be slightly less of an issue with port injection.

Kevin

The cam I have isn't too big, it is around 240 @ 050 hyd roller and it idles with about 12 inches of vacuum. I manually adjusted the AFR at idle from 12.5 to 14.5 and the engine didn't seem to care. I adjusted the fuel map to set the idle at 13.5 and then turned closed loop and learn off below 1200 rpm. So I think that will work but I'm sure I'll need to keep an eye on it.

I've been out for a few drives with the data logger turned on. It is interesting to get back to the shop and then look at the log on the computer and see how the AFR responds to the throttle position. I can watch the fuel pump pressure drop after I hit the throttle and then see it come back up over time. The coolant temp gets up to 180 and then drops a bit when the thermostat opens. Seeing all of this stuff sure helps to sort out any issues.

That's awesome. Hopefully, some day, I can put all of that on my hotrod!

The data logger is built into the Sniper so you get data logging and EFI for $1000.

I built a new throttle bracket from stainless steel to line up with the wider Sniper body. It came out pretty good. Everything lines up and I can get full throttle with the stock cable.

Here is a picture of one of the data logging screens that is built into the Sniper EFI. If you are really interested in tuning engines this is a fast way to see what is going on. I think EFI gives a person a good chance to really learn tuning since you can change things so quickly and see exactly what happens.

Andy do you think would there be any discernible difference in data between a manual trans and an automatic?

I can't think why it would matter. If you hook up a driveshaft rpm sensor you could watch converter slip on the data logger.

Andy,

Are you able to assess whether the Super Sniper on a dual plane is susceptible to more distribution issues than carb? There have been comments that TBI and DP are not a good match, I suspect based on at least that Engine Masters episode.

I don't have any scientific way to measure that. I think you would need 8 O2 sensors to verify distribution issues and I'm not setup with that kind of test gear.

I had a little bit of a hot start issue but Mopar Rich told me how to solve it. Short story is that the Sniper was set up too rich out of the box for hot starting. Rich told me to lean out the hot start so it is the same as idle and to open up the IAC for more air since I have a big engine.

After I made the changes I can turn the key and start the engine when hot with my feet on the floor. Just like a new car.

Not sure about the intake part, but I have noticed on the FiTech form where some people have had injectors that were not flowing the same. A few of the problems were related to debris plugging the injectors, and leaking injector "O"-rings.
After I plumb the fuel system, I connect the fuel supply line to the return line where they would normally connect to the fuel rail, and then run the EFI pump for a minute to make sure any debris in the lines is flushed back to the fuel tank. Last time I did this, I used one of the cheap Summit filters with the -6 AN connectors on each end and the small disc screen filter in it. This way i was able to inspect the screen filter to see if any junk was in the supply line (which there was a small piece of rubber hose.)
This is the filter I used to "loop" the supply and return lines.
I had the filter from my old carbed truck.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-230101/overview/

I would not use the filter above in EFI application, and there is not much filter area in the screen. This is a link to the replacement screen filter if you want to see what it looks like.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-230110

NO TBI EFI system will like a dual plane manifold. Dual planes were designed to generate a "signal" for a carb. TBI EFI wants to inject into an open plenum. If you must use a dual plane manifold then cut the divider out and add at least a 1" open spacer.

I'm running a Performer RPM with a one inch spacer at the moment. I'll most likely end up swapping intakes later this summer as a test just to see how she works with a single plane intake.

The engine runs like a beast with the Performer RPM but I don't have 8 02 sensors so I can't tell you if I'm having distribution problems or not. It will spin the tires as long as I stay in the gas and that is with 13 inch tires out back and a 50/50 weight distribution.

Are
There any good resources out there for these tbi setups?
I have the ez efi on my duster and I'm not happy with it. I would like to think it can be improved. As it sits it doesn't work well with manual trans.

The Sniper can be tuned with a laptop but some of the other TBI systems cannot. If you can't tune the system and it isn't working right then there isn't much you can do about it. With the Sniper you can plug in a laptop and fix the problem, or find a tuner who can help you.

That's definitely a nice option

This is what I do!
fastmanefi.com

Hey Rich, Any chance Holley dose a dual 02 sensor Sniper in the future. Like to see 02's for each collector. Or would it not be of any benefit with a TBI setup.

All two wide-bands would do with TBI is verify that each side of the engine is ok, which you should already know.

look at all eight spark plugs now before changing the intake, they will talk to you
Isn't to much power almost just right

I switched over to a progressive throttle linkage. The progressive setup has the fronts open up to 33% before the rears start to open. I think it is the way to go but it really changes the tune. The Sniper software comes with a check box that allows you to change over to progressive linkage but the check box doesn't seem to actually reprogram the fuel tables. So I'm guessing that this new feature is a "work in progress".

I think I can get my Sniper tuned to work with progressive linkage but we'll see. I started off by cutting the AE tables in half. I figured that since I'm only opening the throttle blades by half, the fuel should be cut in half. We'll see how that works........

If the sniper is anything like the hp/ avenger/dominator, SUPPOSEDLY checking that box makes changes in the background that doesn’t require any changes to your maps.
Hp/ dominator check box also allows throttle percentage changes to coincide with injector cut in/ cut out.
I’ve personally used progresive linkage on a basically stock engine, worked real nice. I never switched from one version of linkage to another on the same engine to see if it does what it is designed to do though.

I exchanged emails with Holley tech on this subject and they do not recommend using progressive linkage with the Sniper. It sounds to me like the software isn't really ready for users to check that box.

Checking the progressive linkage box on my Sniper didn't appear to make any changes to the underlying tables. I went thru the tune after changing to progressive linkage and I do not see any changes to the tables. I might have missed something somewhere but I can pull the before and after tunes up and look them over and nothing jumps out to me.

The sniper must really rely on the TPS like maybe it has some Alpha N mixed into its program. If it was speed density then it wouldn't matter much other than accell enrichment strategy maybe.

I cut the AE tables by a bunch and the car seems to drive okay with the progressive linkage. On my setup the secondaries start to open at 33% on the TPS. You can adjust that number a little bit by changing the length of the link.

It cruises down the freeway at around 15% TPS so it doesn't really need the rear throttle blades most of the time. Only issue I can think of with progressive linkage is that the rear injectors aren't doing anything much of the time so they might have a problem long term. It would seem better if the rear injectors were firing at a very reduced rate below the 33% throttle position just to keep the fuel fresh and to keep everything working.

The guy I talked to at Holley strongly recommended against using progressive linkage. I'm going to drive it for awhile and then switch back to 1:1 just to get a good feel for both.

Progressive linkage is not ideal with TBI because the injectors go all the way around. The injectors feed all four ports equally. Closed throttle plates would not have the same atomization air flow.

Checking the box with a dominator/ hp/ avenger ECU effectively switches the ecu to staged injection if wired correctly. The primary(front) injectors will be on at all times. The rears will ramp in at the tps position selected in the software.
I found the factory setting on the avenger system to be pretty dang close to what it needed to be. I decreased the secondary value just a small amount to clean up a lean spot that you could see in logs, but not actually feel.
I have not dealt with a sniper system. Does it use an hp ecu or is it something else?

The Sniper has its own ECU that is mounted in the throttle body. It uses the same basic software as the HP systems which is why there is a check box for progressive linkage.

From what I can figure, when you check the box the rear injectors are turned off until the TPS % is hit. The problem is, the AE tables are not modified when you switch to progressive so now you get about 2x the fuel that you need below the cut in point. (30% TPS used to open up all four throttle blades 30% but not it only opens the front throttle blades 30%.)

I reduced the AE and that solved the bog off idle. So now it runs okay with progressive linkage but I wouldn't say it runs perfect. There are still some spikes in the AFR plot and off idle performance is a little iffy.

The issue that the Holley guy has is that on a street car the rear injectors will be turned off most of the time since you can do a lot of street driving without ever needing more than 30% throttle position. I think they are worried about the injector life if it just sits there and doesn't do anything.

Since progressive linkage is unsupported on the Sniper he basically told me I was on my own. He said they don't recommend it, it shouldn't be used and it is unsupported. But he also said it makes sense to have progressive throttle on cars like mine with a large engine so perhaps they'll add the feature (and support it) sometime down the road.

Ok didn’t know anything about the sniper system. My suspicion would be that they use the same software, but there are probably not configurable injector drivers in the control unit.
My advice to you is follow what Holley recommends.

Does this software have the capability to save multiple tunes stored in the ECU or is it one and done? Or can you import tunes from a laptop?

It would seem to me that the mapping between progressive and one to one would be completely different.

You can save multiple tunes on the SD card that is in the hand held monitor. The SD card will also hold 100+ data logs depending on how big they are. The SD card pops out of the hand held and you can plug it into a desktop or laptop computer for tuning.

Most people talk about laptop tuning but you really don't need a laptop unless you are tuning at the track. I just pop the SD card out of the hand held and go in the house and use my desktop computer for tuning since the monitor is a lot bigger.

I'm not so sure the tunes need to be much different between progressive and 1:1 since it is all based on RPM and MAP. The only difference I've seen so far is the AE vs. TPS table since the TPS has to move a lot more with progressive.

Thanks for the info Andy, I've never played with that system to know. Interesting as I assumed that you would get to similar rpm numbers with different throttle body area combined with a different TPS position thus requiring a different tune. Please keep us informed on what you discover and thanks a lot for the data share!

I hooked up the Holley digital dash. This is a pretty slick setup that has a bunch of built in dash configurations as well as the ability to build your own dashboard. I'm sure I'll be playing with this for a long time.........

I switched back to 1:1 linkage and took it for a drive. I'm not sure I can really tell the difference. Progressive linkage has a softer feel down low while 1:1 is a little more abrupt, but once you get past the tip in point they feel roughly the same.

I pulled onto the freeway to do a little testing and there was a Mercedes SLR McLaren in the next lane. I rolled into the throttle to see how the tune was working the SLR decided to see if he could take me. Pretty much a dead heat which isn't surprising. The SLR is 600 hp and 4000 lbs which is basically the same as my '65. He had a passenger in the car so he was probably 200 lbs heavier. Not a real race, we just rolled from 60 to 100 then I backed off to take the next exit. Too much traffic to really jump on it hard.

Police have been notified and are on their way.

Yeah I don't think it would take the police too long to find a '65 Dodge Coronet in the local area! Probably take all of 3 seconds to search the DMV files for '65 Coronets.

Not sure what the guy driving the McLaren thought when he saw the grille of a '65 Dodge gaining on him in the rear mirror. Might still be trying to figure it out.

I once had an LS6 Vette pull up beside my 800 HP EFI HEMI 64 Dodge. I smoked that guy so bad I think he pulled off into a bar for a drink. People should know better with Mopars.

Holley has released a whole boatload of Hyperspark products including some Mopar stuff: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/sniper_efi/hyperspark_ignition/

I'm going to pick up the complete package for my car and do the conversion. This will allow me to "plug and play" an ignition system which is controlled by the Sniper.

SNIPER Hyperspark distributors do not generate a cam signal because TBI doesn't need it. So you still need the dual-sync distributors for the HP and Dominator.

Yes, you would need a dual sync distributor for sequential. Batch fire might work with the Sniper distributor but I don't think I need to try that combination.

I just ordered the Sniper distributor so I should have it in a few days. I think it is smaller than the dual sync so it should fit and work with most valve covers. I'll post pictures when it shows up.

Stupid question, do you still need the cd box with the sniper efi?

You can run it old school with a points distributor and a coil if you want but I think most people would want to use a CD box.

I have an old Crane CD box in my car but I'm switching to the new Holley Hyperspark CD box.

Rich I have been waiting for the dual sniper system to be available to install on my 426 hemi. It has a Stage V manifold. Is the equalization port enough of an opening to balance the throttle plates?

I'm lucky enough to know and live within an hour of Matt Bell of redline motor sports to help set the tune.

Thanks Mike

The Sniper will work fine with the Stage-V manifold.

A dual Sniper would be a trick to do since the ECU is in the throttle body and the cables are hard wired. I have no idea if Holley is going to ship a dual Sniper or not. I think you can do dual Terminators with some home brew engineering. Dual throttle bodies with port injection should be easy but expensive. The Stage V can be ordered with port injection or it might be better to use the Edelbrock EFI intake.

I wasn't sure if when they say, these set ups can also control
Ignition, if that eliminated the need to run an Ignition box

No. It allows control of ignition timing but a CD box and coil are still required.

Did Holley make a new dual sync distributor that fits better than the previous dual sync for BBM? I'm thinking I could clean up the wiring even further with this Holley ignition Hyper Spark setup juxtaposed to my MSD CD box and coil.

The new Hyperspark distributor from Holley is smaller than the dual sync so it fits better. It fits the Trick Flow heads without grinding and it fits cast iron heads if the casting flash is removed. It rubs on Edelbrock RPM heads so some minor grinding is required if you have RPM heads.

I ran the Super Sniper on my 470 with the Trick Flow 270 heads. That engine made 730 hp with my Dominator and then 710 with the Sniper. I had to use a 4500 to 4150 adapter which kills some power. The Sniper is a tad small for this engine which also kills some power but 710 isn't bad for a low cost throttle body system.

The Super Sniper is rated at 650 hp but there is some margin in that number. My engine was using 85% duty cycle on the injectors at 7000 rpm so there was still a bit left. The airflow was about maxed out though based on the pressure drop across the throttle. The Sniper has a nice data logger so after a dyno run you can just play it all back and look at the manifold pressure, fuel pressure, fuel flow, air fuel ratio, etc. and see what the engine was doing.

Here is a picture of the Sniper on the dyno. I'll get a video posted up later on tonight and maybe a screen shot of the data log.

Thanks for the info.I know it's your money spent but, do you think the dominator Sniper would make more on this engine ?

The Sniper 4500 is for engines making over 800 hp. One of those would work on this engine on the dyno but it might not drive very nice. It might not even idle since it has twice the injector area that this engine needs.

The perfect throttle body for this engine would be a Sniper 4500 with eight 60 lb injectors. That would give me the larger throttle body but the injectors would be the correct size for the engine. At the moment Holley doesn't offer a "build it yourself" Sniper setup. Maybe they will in the future.

Here is the Hyperspark ignition kit with the new Mopar distributor. Nice looking distributor, has the new black cap from MSD. The ignition box is a nice shape, has a little bit of curve to it rather than the boxy MSD design.

Ask Rich about it, if it was port injection those large injectors would be a problem, I dont think it would be a problem on a TBI, Fast & Fitech have them & they work on lower HP engines.

In theory a throttle body setup could shut off some of the injectors to avoid the low duty cycle issue but I don't think Holley has that feature in the Sniper line. The Sniper 4500 throttle body is advertised as "not for engines making less than 800 hp". So if they could shut off the injectors at low speed they wouldn't need to advertise it that way.

I do agree, if the software was smart enough to disable half of the injectors at idle then the Sniper 4500 would work on this engine and would most likely make more power.

8 EGT's would also work and are a lot easier to install....Tim

Here is a link to the start up video: https://youtu.be/cGljNs28Yp8

Here is a partial video from a dyno pull. The video started in the middle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGsLjqRCRnc

Shot of the data log for a dyno pull. The green line is the throttle position, the red is RPM. Pink wavy line is the actual air fuel ratio. The blue is manifold pressure and if you look close you can see that it drops slightly as the rpm goes up which shows that the throttle body is a bit of a restriction.

Andy have you tried or done any step testing while on the dyno?

Did you try pulling back some timing after peak torque?

No, I'm not controlling timing with the Sniper.

No, I have never done any step testing.

what is "Step Testing"

Step testing is process used in EFI tuning. You use the dyno to load the engine. You work you way through the KPA and RPM grid and go through your Auto Tune. You can a mess with different AFRs and Timing. For something like the Sniper. Probably set your timing and AFR. Then just Dyno through the Auto Tune. Will use 3500 RPM as a Example. Bring the engine up to 3500 put some load on the engine hold it say 3-4 sec 30 KPA@ 3500 RPM. Then back it back down each time then roll up to the next KPA@ 3500. Say it's 35 KPA@ 3500 RPM then 40@ 3500 45 50 55 60 KPA@ 3500 so on. Of course the dyno Op will have to keep applying load to reach the upper KPAs. Thats whats nice with a dyno and a Auto Tune feature or what ever Holley calls thiers. You can go through the Auto Tune in a few hours. Where it would take days or weeks for the engine to see all areas of the map. Way Safer too. I probably didn't explain as well as someone else could. but that's ballpark explanation. Anyone wanting to read some good stuff on EFI. Highly recommend the EFI books by Greg Banish. Helped me alot with doing EFI on Harleys.

The Holley system learns fast enough that you don't need to do all of that. Just bolt it on and let it rip. It helps if the fuel map is close. In this case the learn table was mostly single digits at WOT. We fired the engine up and let it warm up then started to make dyno pulls. The Sniper learned as we went. No need for step testing.

The nice thing about step testing is it finds out the 'best' values for the entire table in one session.
Auto-learning only 'fills' the cells in the table the engine has just used.

Similar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35bZTekQGE8&list=LLtrx_z3PXNJYuLEui9O-hkg&t=0s&index=9

But it isn't necessary with a system that learns quickly like the Holley unit. All you really need are just a few points in the map and then you can interpolate the rest. That gets you close enough that learn can handle the rest.

For this 470 engine I started with a known good map so I didn't even have to bother with any of that. Just loaded the map in, warmed up the engine and starting the dyno pulls. These days there should be enough known good maps floating around that you wouldn't need to do a step test unless you were working with a very odd engine combination.

It kind of is in my opinion. The "auto tune" only tunes to the AFR it is told. Doing step testing would let you know what AFR the engine is the happiest at. After that you can set your auto tune to those values so in the event a change is made it can tune back to those AFRs.

I agree with Andy, seems pointless to do that since it will learn under real-world driving conditions. Furthermore, those 'real world' driving scenarios would likely not be the same as a dyno cell so you'd be muddying the waters before you even put the thing in a car. An engine dyno can't simulate differences in driveline frictional losses, weather, car weight, aerodynamics etc. A chassis dyno might be better suited to that type of testing if you were trying to establish a specific fuel map since you can simulate load better. But like he said, if you have a known 'good' curve' to plug in, it accomplishes the same thing (establishes a baseline) and the auto learn would adjust appropriately as you drive it.

With a Speed Density system like the Sniper. The KPA is the engine load in the map. So if Andy had the engine on the dyno and loaded the engine to hit will say. 30 40 50 60 KPA at 4000 RPM an be at 13.2 AFR. When he put it in the car and got to those KPA points and RPM. It will be 13.2 AFR. The system don't care if it's running through the tranny and rear end. It just knows at this KPA and RPM it's got a target AFR 13.2 in that cell of the map. I was just wondering since he had it on the dyno if he had done any step testing. To try different AFRs at different KPAs & RPMs to see what makes the best HP & TQ. What he has now is what is called a Canned Map. Or a known good map. From there to me while on the dyno he had a chance to fine tune the Map. Theres is NO magical AFR for every KPA & RPM. Every engine demands something a little different. I've seen half a AFR point pick up 3 HP. That's why you can't put the same carb on a different engine. Sure it maybe close. But you still tune it to the engine it's on. EFI no different.

I'll most likely do some optimization of freeway cruise once I get the car running again. I think it would be fairly simple to try some different air fuel ratios at cruise and see what happens with fuel economy, engine temp, etc.

I think it is better to do that testing in the car rather than on the dyno since I don't know what the dyno settings should be to duplicate freeway driving.

That will work Andy. Fast Man EFI. Has a excellent Holley EFI Tuning module online for 75 bucks. Highly recommended. For those who have Holley EFI or looking to maybe go Holley EFI.

Okay. Where do I send the donut and the beer?
http://www.fastmanefi.com/classes

I installed the Trick Flow intake and the Hyperspark ignition system. Just need to button up the wiring and then she'll be ready to go again.

Notice any difference going to single plan intake?

Andy, would you say the Sniper is on par now with a multi port system as far as drivability? Of course it's apples to oranges between the two types of systems but all things being equal - are you leaving anything on the table by not going to a full multi port system?

I don't know an answer to that question. Port injection is going to have some advantages but I don't know if you can really feel the difference on a street car.

That looks like a pretty clean install.

One thing that favors EFI is the lack of anti-vapor lock additives in new fuels.
Since the whole system is under high pressure until it’s discharged by the injectors, less weird fuel related hot weather issues to deal with.

There is still heat related issues, most of which is getting the whole load of fuel hot on long drives. Using a 600HP fuel pump to cruise around town causes lots of return from the hot fuel rails. The drag week people fight it the most, you see fuel coolers, ice packed fuel cells, etc on hot days.

I asked my question because of the additional pieces involved with going MPI - fuel rails/injectors, controllers etc. Guessing any noticeable difference would probably be more related to finite tuning ability of MPI vs throttle body.

However, it seems like you could save yourself some headaches by not going to individual injectors. Point being if the Sniper provides decent enough results then there is probably less reason to choose MPI.

I guess I was “assuming” the sniper type throttle body systems were dead head from the pump to the throttle body........ no return....... which would help curtail the hot fuel issue bad340 is talking about.

I’m likely assuming this incorrectly though...... I do see two lines in the upper left corner of Andy’s last pic.

Fuel system:
All efi fuel systems should be a return type.

TBI vs mpi
Multiport helps with cold start because the manifold is dry. It also eliminates distribution issues. Allows individual cylinder adjustments. Gains hood clearance because MPI TBs are shorter. Almost required for high boost applications. But in most cases there is very little difference in a street car.

Andy does the flat hood on your 65 work with your trick flow intake?

Yes, the flat hood works just fine with the Trick Flow intake. No problems closing the hood. Plenty of clearance for the air cleaner as you can see.

Looks like it almost works. Lol how thick is the filter?

Andy, what fuel pump did you use with this system? Holley now offers direct fit fuel tank kits (made by Tanks, Inc.) that come with a Walbro (I think) 255 lph drop in pump. They claim the 255 pump will support up to 550 hp. I know you are making more steam than that. They have a 400 lph pump as well. Did you use something like this or did you go another route?

Holley/Tanks Inc. '68-'70 B body EFI tank kit

Holley 400 lph fuel pump

I used the Aeromotive Phantom pump which is only 200 lph. 200 lph is 53 gph or 318 lbs/hour which is enough fuel for more than 600 hp.

The important thing is the flow rating at 60 psi. For a 600 hp engine you need 50 gallons per hour at 60 psi.

I'll have to see how the pump does on the chassis dyno. On the street it holds pressure just fine even at WOT on the freeway. The 400 lph pump would also work in my car but would be overkill.

If the 255 pump will put out 255 lph at 60 psi then it is good for 800 hp. I wouldn't have any problem using one of those in a hot street car.

Holley doesn't list specs on the pump so you have to go to the Tanks Inc website. Tanks Inc does an excellent job listing specs and even shows a flow vs. pressure chart with different voltage and amp draws.

The GPA-4 which is the 255 lph pump will deliver 65 gph at 60 psi if the alternator is working (13.5 volt system).

65 gph is 390 lbs/hour which is enough fuel for 800 hp. So I don't see any reason to use anything bigger than the 255 lph pump for the normal Mopar stroker engine. You would need to be running a monster of an engine on the street to need the 400 lph pump.

I run a Racetronix 255lph, no issues with fuel pressure, system runs at 58psi. I can control PWM and slow it down at idle and cruise, but fuel still heats up. Not enough to cause issues though.

Even ran the 255 when my car was carb'd regulated down to 6psi.

This is a little off topic...who's valve covers are those Andy?Very clean look. Also, any decision on the water neck/sending unit piece?Would like one for sure.

Good info on the fuel pumps, thanks. It's easy to get sucked in to thinking you need more flow capability.

Looking at the GPA-4 flow chart, the difference in pressure between 12V and 13.5V is something to consider though. Like you said Andy the alternator needs to be doing it's job.

I actually run 2 Walboro 255LPH Pumps. One runs all the time and the other comes on over 3500RPM if throttle is greater than 70%. At maybe 600HP I can live on one pump but the extra doesn't hurt. It has also come in handy when I had a pump die on the road, I just moved my fuel pump relay wire and I was back in business in less than a minute.

Same here, 2 pumps in the cell, one 340LPH that I switch to when I spray it. Having a spare was the main driver though.

I made the valve covers. Just start with a big chunk of aluminum and whittle away at it until it looks like a valve cover!

I'm going to get more of the water neck spacers built. I sent a CAD file out for quotes so I should have parts on my website in a few weeks.

Yep, having a good alternator really helps. If you look at flow vs. amps you'll see that running the system at 13.5 volts increases pump flow significantly but doesn't require much more current.

The new stuff with PWM really helps. The Sniper can't deal with PWM (as far as I know) but the higher end EFI systems can control the pump in a smart way. That way you don't need to have the pump on full bore all the time.

I'm going to get more of the water neck spacers built. I sent a CAD file out for quotes so I should have parts on my website in a few weeks. [/quote]

Great Andy I'll take one.

Mike

Yep, I want one too Andy.

Good deal! I'll have to keep an eye on the site and place an order.

Can the base sniper efi be upgraded to the Super Sniper 650 with just a software program update to use it with nitrous or blow through?

Thanks

Car Craft article: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/super-sniper-efi-sees-powerful-improvements-data-logging/

Still creating a list for water neck spacers Andy? I'll take one.

Thanks!

I'm in for a spacer too Andy, keep us posted.

Was just looking at the Holley website, and the description for the Super Sniper 650 indicates "Progressive or Non-Progressive control strategies". Did they already add this feature for progressive throttle plates since the article was written/published, and have you tried a software update?

I think that description on the website refers to nitrous control.

Holley marketing was very specific with me when I wrote the article. They do not want people using a progressive linkage on the Sniper.

Doh! Guess it was too much wishful thinking...

I got the impression that support for a progressive throttle linkage will be coming along in a future release. Holley had progressive linkage on an earlier throttle body so they know how to do it, I guess they just left it off the first version of the Sniper.

Current Terminator throttle body use progressive linkage. I assume that price point, and limited space with the Sniper system are a few reasons for limited abilities.
If the sniper had all of the capabilities of the Terminator, no one would buy the higher end systems.

I have the engine running with the Hyperspark ignition and so far it seems like an excellent upgrade over the MSD distributor that I had in there.

The Hyperspark ignition has full computer control so I can dial in whatever advance curve the engine needs. Idle performance and low speed driving really improved by adding a little more timing. With the MSD distributor I was limited to 16 degrees initial and 18 in the can for a total of 34. By getting rid of the mechanical setup now I can dial in whatever I want. I started off with 20 degrees at idle and kept the 34 at WOT. The few extra degrees at idle and low speed really smoothed the engine out. Manifold vacuum increased from 12 to 14 inches and the engine is using less fuel with the extra advance.

I still have a bunch more tuning to do but so far I'd say it is a major step forward.

I've been out on the freeway driving the car and it is amazing how much less fuel the engine uses with the extra ignition timing. The MSD distributor that I had before did not have vacuum advance so I was limited to 34 degrees total going down the road. Now with 40+ degrees at cruise speed the fuel consumption is reduced by 30%. That is a big savings in gas. It was using around 40 lbs/hr at 75 mph and now it has dropped below 30 lbs/hr at the same speed. It isn't going to be a fuel economy star but now I should be able to take it somewhere without always having to look for a gas station. If I can get 15 mpg on the freeway I'd be happy. I typically don't drive it more than 30 or 40 miles anyway but maybe if the mpg is better I might take it on longer drives.

Andy, since there is no vacuum pod with the Hyperspark distributor I'd guess you manually add the extra timing for cruise? Or, are there a pre-determined curves built in for various situations? How is timing handled in general?

There is a timing table in the software which you can edit. Basically I have 19 at idle, 34 at WOT and 42 for freeway cruising and then smoothed out between those areas.

If you want to get really tricky with it you should be able to set up a lean burn timing/fuel curve scenario for light throttle cruising.

Kevin

I added the digital dash and built a new console panel for analog gauges. Most of this is temporary, I'll figure out what I want long term in the car some other time. But for now I can watch the EFI sensors with the digital dash and I have duplicate analog gauges for the important stuff.

Got some runs on the chassis dyno today. Made 485 rwhp and 525 ft-lbs. Not bad for pump gas, hyd roller cam and cast iron exhaust manifolds.

Everything ran great on the dyno but there is some room for improvement. The AF ratio goes off at the start of the run so I need to work on the enrichment table.

Video of one of the chassis dyno pulls: https://youtu.be/xG3-_YJGdZ8

That will be a fun car especially with the stick shift. After cruising my Duster for a few years now I'm definitely thinking I need to do something about my crappy gas mileage if I want to cruise further.

The switch to the Sniper system and the Sniper ignition setup appears to be about a 30% increase in miles/gallon at freeway speeds. The engine also runs much better than it did with any of the carbs I had on there.

Do you have a dyno comparison carb to Sniper on this engine ?

Not on this engine but I've done it with other engines. There isn't much difference in power on the dyno, but the drivability difference is huge.

Good reading. thx for the thread.

I can also attest to the ignition control improvement on these F.I. systems. I installed an Edelbrock E-Street 2 on an Eddy headed 440 Cuda for one of my customers and oh what a difference! I saw massive low end torque improvements in driveability when we added this feature on the Edelbrock system.

Andy, sorry if I missed this further up in the thread. Could you have locked out the MSD distributor and let the Sniper control timing that way?

Yes you can but it isn't recommended. The MSD uses an inductive pickup and EFI systems really prefer a nice square wave trigger. So all of the EFI vendors recommend using Hall effect triggers. The Hyperspark has a Hall effect pickup in it and it is already locked out.

I sold my MSD to a guy who wanted a MSD billet distributor and took the cash and bought the Hyperspark. The Hyperspark distributor is fairly inexpensive since it is just a housing with a spinning target wheel and a trigger pickup.

If you have a MSD I'd recommend doing the same thing. Sell it rather than try to convert it and buy the Hyperspark.

Yeah, I've got an MSD Pro Billet on the motor now. Never attempted wiring the Holley for timing control yet. $250 isn't bad at all. Should be able to make most of that back in selling the MSD.

Would you see any issue in running it with an old analog MSD 6AL box? You're running a roller cam too, right? Did you have to swap out the iron gear?

Thanks Andy.

Exactly, the MSD pro billet distributors are $330 new so you can usually sell them for $200 pretty easily. Your MSD box should work okay. Just study the wiring diagrams in the Holley instructions to make sure you can hook it up. I think you just use the points wire to trigger the MSD box.

Yeah pretty sure it is the white wire.. love this
injection stuff

I sent a data log file to Rich and he noticed that the engine gets a little unhappy past 6500 rpm. I couldn't hear it or feel it on the dyno but the RPM and MAP traces both get a little jiggy up there. Could be a slight misfire or perhaps the hyd roller lifters are bleeding down a little bit. The power doesn't fall off very quickly but the RPM trace is skipping around enough that it sure looks like something is up. I'll have to keep an eye on it. I don't really need to wind it out that hard. 6000 rpm is 125 mph in forth gear and the car won't run 125 in the quarter.

Here is the article in Hot Rod magazine: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/holley-hyperspark-install-tune/

The water neck spacer for the coolant sensor is now in production. I have them in stock so you should be able to order them from any of the dealers who carry my stuff.

http://arengineering.com/products/thermostat-spacer-with-efi-sensor-port/

That looks nice!

Thanks. Here is an installed picture.

I would love to have this answer also

Not a big mystery. Just ARP studs.

Hey Andy

Your water neck adapter is really good looking and aims the sensor in a way that the wiring would be real clean. On mine I have two senders in the water pump where you have blue anodized plugs- one for the autometer in my dash and one for the holley ecu. Is there any reason you didn’t use these? Mine read pretty dead on together and the factory sender was already using the outboard port on my donor 400 motor.

It’s funny- while I already had an innovate wideband and autometer water temp installed I was about to put in a vacuum gauge too- duh! MAP sensor is the same thing once I learned to read kpa! I do enjoy the redundant gauges though since the 3.5” screen is too small to watch much and I have it inside my glovebox door.

The sniper & hyperspark has been awesome so far- best $ I spent after the 512 stroker kit. Thanks for all your time on the different forums we’re on!

You have enough room in there to mount the Holley Digital Dash. Just need to build a bracket and hook it up. The Digital Dash works great with the Sniper and it will allow you to add a bunch of other inputs also.

Wow, great thread. Thanks for all the info Andy!

No problem. The Sniper seems to becoming fairly popular. I'm supposed to help tune two 505 Mopar engines on the dyno this week and both have Sniper systems. One is a 550 hp street engine and the other is a 650 hp street/strip engine.