What went wrong?

I had built a 505 stroker. here is the list of parts:
440 bored .30
505 stroker kit from Ohio Crankshaft
84cc Edelbrock heads with stock rocker arms
Edelbrock Torker 2 intake
Holley 850 carb
HYDRAULIC − Serious street and bracket
race cam.
10:1 compression, lower gears,
headers and 3500+ stall.
Hyd. Hyd. 3000 to 6500 21-229-428
Single-Bolt
XE295HL 295 307 251 257.564.564 110°
Dougs 3" headers

Took it to the dyno and it only put out 231 hp and 286 torque.
I lost probably about half the horse power somewhere.

Did you degree the cam

Are those rear wheel HP and TQ numbers?

Yes

Stock rocker arms? Is that meaning stamped steel? If so get rid of them and get some adjustable's. That's a pretty decent hyd cam should make over 600 hp easily. Degree the cam? Break in the cam with proper lube?

Rear wheel

Yes,stamped steel rockers.
Broke the motor in with Joe Gibbs oil.
We did degree the cam.
Hot rod magizine built a 573 hp and used stamped steel rockers so I doubt that would make me lose that much hp and tq.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1412-how-you-can-build-a-stout-537hp-street-440/

What did you degree the cam into

I don't see any problems with that parts list so I'm guessing the tune is way off. Do the standard checks and see what you find.

Spark plug wires connected? Plug wires in the correct order? Compression check? Look at plugs, look at ports, etc. Vacuum leaks? Air Fuel ratio? Ignition timing? etc.

That sounds like half throttle or less results
Did you verify that you have the carb opened all the way with you in the car with the gas pedal on the floor? If not try that
Let us know what you find to fix this

Does the car run and drive like a 230hp engine or what it should be over 500hp ?. With numbers that low, but the car runs strong, I might have to question the dyno itself.

I hate the intake for that combo, I hate the convertor choice for that combo, did you check for total timing in the 32-36 range for a start. Did you check for proper preload on those non adjustable rockers.

They did change the plugs and upped the jets to 88 and 90. They reset the timing to 34 degrees. I have the dyno sheet at home and I’ll post it when I get there. It’s a very well Mopar place in Michigan that ran it on the Dyno and he can’t figure it out. Very disappointing

I had it dyno’d at Jake’s. He’s a Mopar guy so I don’t think it’s the dyno

Wondering what you used for push rods and lifter preload?


Do ya got a vid of this dyno session or of the car running, id think it probably dont sound well when running either.

I do have a video but have no idea how to post it here

I had my car checked at Jakes also... did you
ask him what might be your issue(if he throught
there was)

Something going on besides the jetting or the timing being off a few numbers. Compression test, leak it, get the timing cover off and check the cam timing. Cut the oil filter apart and check it. Exhaust blocked. Transmission OK. Has to run and sound bad when it's being driven.

I did and he had no idea. He was going to ask his buddy at Modern to see if he had anything and get back with me.
I believe I'm going to pull the motor and dissect it and maybe something will show up.

Did all that. Did the compession check and leak down and everything looked great. Trans is good. I just dont know. I sank and boat load of money in this thing and my Ford Focus has more power!

https://youtu.be/0TVC1dn6SwI

I really think your cam timing is retarted..
check the crank zero mark first.. I wouldnt
pull the engine yet.. pull the timing cover
and check the cam timing again

Very nice car!!!!!!!!!!

Would that make me lose half the hp? I was thinking cam lobe's or something. To lose that much hp, it has to be affecting all the cylinders.

Thanks

A retarted cam will act just like that.. I check
the cam 3-4 times when I put them in and it'll
be slow reving

Are you sure it's getting full throttle ?

Yes. It gets to around 4600 rpm and drops like a rock

If you missed it, what are you using for pushrods?

check to see if your balancer timing mark is right.

i have to agree with Mike, sounds like its laboring untill it get's up so then it liven's up after that.

Had them made. 3/8 chromemoly

Here are the dyno sheets. First one is before they changed the jets. Second is what the car sits now.

Could you hear the engine surging

No. The only way they knew the jets were off is by the laptop.

There is a lot of ups and downs in the pulls

There was then he changed the primary jets and it cleaned it up.
The last sheet is after the jet change. Was at Jakes for 5 hrs trying to figure this out.

If it won't pull past 4000 rpm then I'd suspect that it is a valve train issue. Lifters are probably collapsing. Put a solid flat tappet cam in it and it will probably pull hard to 6500 rpm and give you 500+ hp.

FWIW, the graph looks like the car has a throttle stop on it! I agree with Andy and others that the valves aren't opening or at the wrong time. If you're going to go solid lifter, make it a solid roller.

Nothing wrong w/ the parts list IMO. Definitely something stupid holding it back. The lifters could be an issue, but there's no reason a hydraulic shouldn't pull to 6k+ rpm. Might need different lifters if those are bleeding down. A solid roller would be my choice too, but the hydraulic you have should work.

Check things like where the cam is in at, verify the TDC mark on the balancer is where it should be, verify you don't have lobes going flat, etc.

FWIW...my old stock stroke 440, 10:1, basically stock 906 heads w/ the 509/292 purpleshaft (w/ stock stamped rockers and stock pushrods) made 340 hp on the chassis dyno and ran 11.80s at 112 mph at 3700 lbs.

loose torque converters (especially with hi-torque engines) and chassis dynos aren't always a good mix. stock rockers can give too much preload on the tappets and I don't think those edelbrock springs are up to snuff for that cam. you probably have a coupe of, if not more, issues to look at.

Are you using the valve springs that came with the heads? I had a problems and after trying so many things I pulled off all the valve spring and had them checked. I had at least 4 that were really weak. You might want to check valve springs and if weak go with a better set recommended for the cam you are running.

It can very well be the springs.. when I dynoed
my engine it had about 6 weak springs.. I changed
them and got my power and rpms back... and I checked
a few before I put the engine together.. but the ones
I checked were OK

His converter isn't too loose. If anything it's too tight.

I just watched a video of monza from street outlaws with his car on a wheel dyno. You can hear it go up on the converter.

High torque and chassis dynos are done all the time. It's not the dynos fault.

I am putting one of those kit together right now. They used a 1.865 ch piston, and a 6.700 rod. I had to take .040 off the block to get to 0 deck. If you are .040 in the hole and have 80+ cc heads your compression could be way off. What was the parts used in your kit? What was your assembled c.h.? Example 10 cc for the deck vol. 8 cc for the pockets 10 cc for the gasket and 84cc for the heads =112cc at tdc. 1035cc swept vol.
1147/112 = 10.24cr. ok still seems down on power. What is the intake close at .050. Could way down on dynamic compression.

Are you shore that you have the cam were it is surpose to be.... it must be of ! A classic mistake is to degree it on the ext lobe ! Just my 2 cent if the cam is made corekt and i hope you sort it out.

That graph/chart shows what valve float looks like on the dyno. IF you are using the Edelbrock springs they are NOT suited to that camshaft. The Comp XE grinds are really aggressive and need a pretty serious spring. I know, I know that they are supposed to be good for 600 lift. Horse puckey. I have a 5 gallon bucket full of them that we only use on really mild stuff (like 480 and under lift). That cam is 564 lift. I would use a Comp 925 with the right retainers and locks. Not a huge fan of the super big hyd cams either for this and other reasons. I would also advise against a cam like this as a single bolt cam either. Comp will grind the same (or any) single bolt cam as a 3 bolt (you just have to order it like that). Hey the Hemi and factory six pack motors are three bolts for a reason. Now please send all the "i have ran single bolts and edelbrock springs for years" posts to someone else. Also of note is what part number lifter are you using? 822-16 or 867-16? It matters. Also stock rockers on this cam profile will most likely lead to pushrods being pushed through the sockets in the rockers in the not so distant future. Pull the valve covers and have a looky loo. Pop one or two springs off and look at the bottom of the retainers and the locks. Are they shiny? Are the locks already showing wear? The eddies do not use a great lock. Upgrade to some 10 degree stuff if you change the springs.
Todd

Either valve springs or a fuel delivery issue.

I had pulled the motor today just to dissect to find the problem. I’m going to send the heads out to have the springs and valves checked. While it’s out I believe I’m going to change the cam to a solid. Any recommendations on a cam? It’s just disheartening to have high expectations from this motor and my wife’s car has more power than mine.

You don't need a very big cam for what you are trying to accomplish. The old Mopar .528 solid will work fine or use something similar from your favorite cam vendor. Comp has a 294S or a XS282S. I'm sure Hughes has some cams that will work just fine. If you want to go custom then call Porter Racing Heads and have Dwayne spec you a cam, lifters and valve spring combo.

Honestly there is nothing the matter with the cam you have... if anything it probably needs more valve spring, but it will make power just fine.

Double check everything, including the rocker to spring clearance, and rocker pattern.

On the dyno you looked at o2, so fuel starvation is out because it would show up going lean. You double checked the timing (although the balancer could be way off), so sort of ruled that out. It could have weak springs on it, but even if they are weak, I would have expected it to run clean a lot higher RPM then it did (but you'll double check that now).

Honestly though... That being said, if the motor sounded like it ran good (no ticking or anything crazy), I wouldn't be surprised if the coil was junk (new or not).

Are you going to do all the checking you can on this motor now?
If so please recheck the cam timing to make sure EXACTLY where the intake lobe center is
I've used the same Comp Cams grind in more than one pump gas street motor, stock stroke and 4.25 stroke motors, all of them did good on the engine dyno and in the car
I do use adjustable rocker arms also on any of my halfway serious motor, especially on hydraulic lifter motors to get the lifter preload correct
I set the heads up with between 140 to 165 Lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 360 Lbs. open pressures
I use to know John Deanna(SP?), Hot Rod, Car Craft, Motor trend writer and publisher a long time ago, and buy parts from him. I have seen many articles written buy other writers at Pertersen Publishing in those magazines that where dead wrong on a lot of the details and parts use on cars they did articles on some of my friends race cars Same thing on technical build articles that some of shops fed them bad info to test how smart the writers where
My message is do NOT believe every thing you see in print or pictures
Please let us know what you find on this problem, YOU can find it

you never answered if you were using the springs that came with the heads?
Sounds like you're doing way to much when you could of taken off all the valve springs and had them checked while the engine was together and still in the car. Sounds too late though but if you haven't taken the engine apart yet, that's what I would do.

Yes, I did not change the springs. From box to motor. I took it out because I want to check everything and it’s a lot easier when it’s out. Besides I can put it on an engine dyno and check it when it’s all together.

Everyone is giving great recommendations here. That being said let me give my take on this. None of the parts are realy wrong but maybe just not right for combo. Maybe some not my choice but should have still made way more power than it did. when the veh was brought in it was brought in mostly because he was having a spark knock issue so the first things checked was plugs and timing. found there was the wrong plugs in it. It had short reach j style plug when it needs long reach n style so plugs where changed timing was locked out at 34. Doing low speed runs found the carb was very lean so a jet change was made. Full pulls where found to be lean but not in the danger zone. Still my thoughts thou where the tuning was not going to make up for that much lose in power. Tried to add some jet and it went crazy and didnt like that at all. My thoughts are I would have done adjustable rockers and different springs. I have never had much faith in those springs that come with those heads. Also it seam like lifter preload may have been to tight without knowing what the adjustment really was when assembled with the none adjustable rockers. Also if cam was not degreed in just the power band would just been off not that much of a loss unless it was way off,but he said it was dot to dot. watching the graff the converter was going to about 3700 rpm so that wasn't way out. now that the motor is out I would get the heads set up get the rockers. Not a big fan on spending the money on new cam that cam is fine. On another note car was done very nice and the customer and his son and friend that where there where great to talk to

Was the exhaust open or closed? Did you check for excess back pressure? I had a muffler come apart once and partially blocked the exhaust. that car couldn't get out of it's own way.


Joe

Using advertised cam timing event your dynamic c.r. could be as low as 6.4 to 1 with excess lifter preload on a hydraulic would make it worse. mabe start with reducing preload to almost 0.

Ok
Red flag to check.
You cannot degree a cam by going dot to dot on the timing chain. It could be anywhere. You need a degree wheel and find true TDC. Just going off what I read here.

Bingo

Stamped rockers w/no adjustment might have too much preload and may keep the valves from sealing when you get into the rpm

That’s why I pulled the motor so I can check everything.

You have an awesome Challenger. I hope you can get it figured out.

Thank you

There is something crazy wrong here! It seems everyone has given some good insights. It could be a combination of probs, but I am going with the cam timing is off or the lifters are being crushed by too much preload {just a simple shimming of the rocker shafts would fix this}

with this statement, double check cam with degree wheel....also nice Challenger BTW...hope you can straighten this out, good luck!

any update on your findings?

Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. Set the heads off to be checked and replaced the lifters with roller rockers. I put the motor back in and its like night and day. Huge difference! Now i just have to get it back on the dyno to see the differemce. Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.

Everyone may be on to something with the cam timing.We had an engine that came in that had the cam lined dot to dot and wouldn't run.Came to find the dot to dot was the wrong refrence one dot was at the came gear and the other was at the crank keyway slot when it should have been at the crank gear tooth.The dot crank keyway was the designation for the retard tooth setting.Rest the crank gear tooth slot dot to the cam gear dot and it ran fine.There were 3 setting at the crank gear a retangle for retard a triangle for advance and a dot for straight up.The installer mistook the retangle for dot.Never use the mark at the keyway as a setting for the cam use it to position the related mark at the tooth area.This is worth investigating.

It sounds like he tried to go dot to dot the first time, missed that and cost you some bent valves. Then he really put in the effort and got it dot to dot on the second go?
Please. before bolting the heads on find out what the measured centerline is. Your guy probably can't do it. Find someone who can. Oops too late, well I guess it's running anyway.

Give me a call and I will see what I can do to get you in earlier Jake

Why didn't the motor "assembler" degree the cam?
Doug

Some of these "so called" engine builders scare the CRAP out of me.

A few lessons learned. There are parts guys that do more than just sell parts
Cams MUST be degreed with a wheel and dial indicator.

Even good engine builders can make a mistake,they ARE human.I hope he stepped up and took car of the expense you had to endure!

Cams and springs really need to be "matched" and checked for accuracy!
The right combo of cam & spring can make a huge difference

What's the A:F just after the torque drop-off?

Me too
The first solid roller cam I bought and installed in a customers 1958 392 (300 motor originally with dual AFB quads and adjustable rocker arms ) stock hemi boat motor in a 18 ft. flat bottom Stevens V drive. It had a solid lifter cam in it before and would rev a little over 6000 RPM in gear on the water according to the customer, not so with the new Sig Erson solid roller race boat camshaft
It wouldn't rev past 3000 RPM with that new cam install straight up dot to dot in the water in gear
It revved like crazy in the boat out of the water
I had my wife take that cam back to Sig Erson three times to have them check it, they swore up and down it was okay I had to wait 5 weeks for them to grind that cam as it was not a standard shelf cam they stock at their factory back then in 1971
They where not real helpful on solving the problem as long as I dealt with Sig Erson younger brother Babe Erson
I had that motor in and out of the boat fives times and apart before finding out that the cam had been ground 10 degrees retarded
I learned that from one of their older techs on the next to the last call to them when he taught me how to degree the cam on the lobe centers, it was a real eye opener
They swore it wasn't their special ground expensive brand new cam shaft, it had to be the timing set or the crankshaft key way being ground in the wrong location and so on and on.
They ended up giving me a set of offset cam and crankshaft keyways to get it installed where the lobe centers should have been instead of replacing it with another new one ground properly
It was off on the cam card on the lobes a little bit, 2 to 5 degrees at .020 checking it on both intake and exhaust lobes so that should have been a good indicator it was ground wrong from day one to me
That was my first experience with a solid roller cam and my last time I bought any Sig Erson products
I have learned since then most problems with engines or with other things, end up helping me become better

I agree with what several said, its a cam timing issue. I would do a cranking compression test and then a running compression test. You should have 160 to 180 lbs of compression at least, and then the running compression test should go to 80% of the cranking when you blip the throttle. If those numbers are low your cam is off. A quick way to tell is rotate the engine to the overlap at TDC, look at the valves one is opening and one is closing, if both vales are the same height your cam is in heads up, if intake is down its advanced, if exhaust is down its retarded. One bad things about a chassis dyno is lack of instrumentation, an engine dyno with exhaust temp sensors, fuel flow, pressure, etc. would really help diagnose the issue. Their is nothing really wrong with your parts, its something with how they were assembled.

He found the problem !!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You an try Full Throttle racing In Fraser,MI they have a chassis dyno.

Jeez, what a stupid mistake!

I've seen combos that don't run like they should and people always blame the cam. I always ask if they degreed it and 9 times out of 10 they say, "I made sure and lined up the dots!".

For you guys that struggle with degreeing in cams buy yourself this tool. It sure make the job a lot easier.



https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/cca-4926

Got it covered! Jake was awesome and fit me in sooner! 👍

Glad you got it squared away.. very nice ride

I got him coming in Thursday.

Make sure you LET him ring its tale

Just got home from the dyno at Jakes. First I have to say Gary at Jakes is awesome fortaking care of me. So now the numbers. For a Stroker motor that has only parts from out of the box I think it’s pretty good adding in the power train lose.
414 hp and 429 torque.

So about 484hp

Looks like there is more power to be had with further carb tuning. Did you get a chance to do any tuning when you had the car on the rollers?

Agree with Dave.
Was that with an air cleaner on it?

I cannot remember if this is a carb or efi?
Wondering if valve train is getting unstable at 5k and above as well.
Certainly seems really lean to me.

That tool is nice for checking cam centerline. I have seen it mis-used trying to set/measure opening and closing events or duration. The results will be slightly off because the follower diameter of the tool is smaller (0.841" is what mine measured) than a real MOPAR lifter (0.904".)
I don't know the radius used for the rounded follower used for roller cams? If I want to measure duration or opening and closing events, I use the actual lifter the engine will be using as the roller cam lifters may have different diameter rollers.

So, two things that I would consider pretty much “mandatory” for a build like this obviously didn’t get done.
Cam didn’t get degreed, and valve to piston clearance not verified.

I dynoed a very mild 505 last fall that was similar, but milder.
Stage 1 rpm heads, .483 lift hyd cam, original Torker, 850vs carb, 1-7/8” headers.

I told him it would make about 600ft/lbs and 500hp.
It made 628tq/515hp.

With an RPM intake and the OP’s cam I would have been looking for another 40-50hp.

Back in about 1990, on a 500hp 440 I tested an original Torker against a Torker II.
The Torker II had noticeably better top end power than the original Torker, which resulted in a peak gain of about 15hp, but at the top of the run it was more like a 30hp difference.
The original Torker had better bottom end and made about 15ft/lbs more peak tq.

The air cleaner was not on it. It is a 850 carb.

So do you think if I change the intake to a Edelbrock RPM I would gain some?

“Some”?
Sure...... but mostly in the lower part of the curve is what I’d expect.

Peak hp would likely be within 10.

Way more work involved, but I’d expect better results out of some head porting instead.

If the dyno operator has confidence in the AFR values posted in that dyno chart, you should be able to pick up some decent power jetting up on the carb. It looks pretty lean on those runs.

The timing might also be more optimized once the AFR was richer.

The jets at 80 primary 88 secondary.