440 source balance job

any good or should i have my machine shop just do it instead? my shop charges 250.00, so price is the same. opinions please. thinking of getting 383/496 kit for wagon. just had 543 in stock block go boom boom. i realize that it is same thing with 383/496 as it was with 440/543. size 10 foot in size 7 shoe. thanks in advance.

I don't know one way or the other. I do know that I like Source's argument that they do a bunch of them and nothing else. Seems pretty logical that by practicing the same thing over and over again that you are likely to get pretty good at it.

My semi local shop is $175 but if im getting the kit from one that sells alot like Source does I pay the extra. Cant think of a good reason not to.

I was considering just that, a 543 in a stock block (street). what happened to your deal?

Take one bite at the apple. S/F...Ken M

I can say I bought a 440Source 4.15 crank kit thats in my 493. I checked the pistons with pins and rods using my brothers tools and they were all very close. So close I went with their balance on the kit and crank since I knew mine was a street eng that I would not be running hard that much and it has worked fine. Its been in my car since 2011 and no vibration at all at any rpm that I can notice. Course if I was going to be twisting it hard every weekend I would want to have it checked to be sure. Ron

It will be fine--I have run a balancer for a Long time on all those spin and drill jobs --they are easy as pie and you would be surprised how far off they can be and still run smooth as silk It is EASY to get them done well Easy! So why fool around just get it done by them
These days rods and pistons are so close I never touch them--the folks that do and take a gram here and there are fooling themselves and just making grit to clean off It does not have to be that close

Its nice to see all these positive comments but rest assured that given time the naysayers will chime in !!! And then you'll be left alone with the dilemma. When it come to buying stuff or services from 440Source people should "just do it". Getting opinions just confounds the issue !!

They have a digital Hines balancer--and same guy runs it all day long--it will be on the $$ the Hines does not quit until it has done the job within the weight of a small paperclip--guy just drills until green light comes on then Tadaaa!!!

Ask your shop which they prefer. Some shops are okay using a balanced kit, others will want to balance it themselves. If your engine builder is going to recheck everything then you'll end up paying twice.

We've balanced over 3500 big inch Big Block Mopars Most any local shop would be lucky if they've got even one or two percent of that kind of experience with BB Mopar strokers.

You can check out our balancing operation here:

http://www.440source.com/balancing.htm

The only thing I can add is if the builder (or parts owner) finds there are sizing or taper issues w/ the crank journals that don't pass muster, then the initial balance job's cost isn't adding value to the package price.

I noticed that the subject company posted above shortly before me. Can he/they please explain how that situation would be handled, should it occur? Thanks! - Brad

Grinding the crank wouldn't affect the balance enough to matter.

You remove some material off the crank...... And add it to the bearing shells.

It's basically a wash.

If you really want to go deep into the weeds on theory think about the amount of oil on any rotating part in the bottom end at slow RPM with cold or lukewarm oil temps and then think about how much oil gets slung off at higher RPM with hot oil or a thinner weight oil

Nope, not really.

Works for me.

Just for reference I bought an Eagle rotating assembly for a 511 RB - my machinist insisted on checking the balance - the balance was within 1 gram on a 2180 total balance weight - I would say that is within a negligible error - so I paid essentially for two balance jobs in the end!

I used one shop twice and they charged me $200 to balance. The last shop I used charged me $250. The 1st shop there was no indication of any "adjustments" to the rods or pistons, just made the crank what it needed to be. The 2nd shop you could see where they "adjusted" the rods and pistons. He even put a wrist pin with a specific piston to make sure that all 8 were identical. I know the 2nd machinist if he has similar builds going on with identical parts (Say 2 builds with Scat rods) he will take all 16 rods and weigh them all and make the 2 sets of 8 as close before "adjusting" them.

To me if your paying to have it balance they should make it close as they can and make sure all the rods and pistons/pin are identical, that's what your paying them for IMO.

my experience with 440 was dead on................. we always check to verify someone else's work . it was spot on.

It was because I could train a monkey to operate a modern balancer in two days --it is EASY to be near perfect with a $60K machine the balancers they used in WWII were near as good it ain't hard to balance an engine and proof that it can be three miles off and still run perfect is Chryslers factory balance jobs that were in many cases AWFUL

hey Source I stood up for ya!!!

Oil schmoil!! Everybody guesses at 4-5 grams and that is just for argument nobody knows and ...It don't matter!!

I am telling you within 30 grams and you can't tell--most jobs are within a gram or two no matter who does it

and uh 3500 jobs that guy should get a Gold medal from someone!! he done know his stuff!!!

Unless you are balancing it your self you are just taking someones word that they did it usally after holding it hostage.I have used 5 440 source kits with their balance jobs with no issues and they tell me when I will have it before I hang up the phone.

IMHO:
There are a lot of very good answers here. Let us go back to basics. Of the Big Three, Chrysler balance jobs were by far the worst. That wasn't by accident. Chrysler engineers put a lot of thought into the difference between good and good enough. They knew how far out things could be without getting complaints from the consumer. They were, of course, building cars to sell. They were not building exotic pieces of engineering art or future collectibles. Never once in my childhood did I hear Mopar engines described as rough running.

Now stop and think of the hundreds of millions of engines rebuilt with "stock replacement" parts. Do you think they got balanced? Not on your life. Yet we don't hear about rough running rebuilt shortblocks.

So what if one rod throw is tapered and needs to be taken down 0.010"? Change in weight would be 19.4 grams, minus the extra weight of the thicker bearing shells. It would indeed be inconsequential. If all the rod throws were reground it'd be even less of a change.

Any tiny amount of metal that might need to be removed for fitting is well within modern tolerances, and the factory tolerances are much larger. Modern balance jobs are probably to 1/10 the tolerance of the factory balance job.

If I bought a 440Source rotating kit I'd pay to have it balanced. If my engine assembler wanted to do it again it'd have to be on his nickel.

Finally, we act as if the formula for balancing the rotating/reciprocating assembly of a V8 was handed down by God Almighty. It wasn't. There is no mathematical derivation from which the formula was developed. The formula is based on empirical data. If it was based on analysis, such things as overbalancing or underbalancing the engine would not exist.

Best Regards,
R.

If a shop insists on doing the job, 9 times out of 10 its because they want the $$.

The engine shop I use do everything except grind and polish cranks and balance assemblies so while they do have shops they prefer to use for this work they have no issue using balanced assemblies customers supply.

Since setting rod clearances involves some material removal, its very likely that there isn't a single perfectly balanced engine out there other than perhaps a Nascar motor or similar. Achieving perfection is something most people couldn't afford and certainly don't need. For 99.99% of the motors out there, close is good enough. And as my builder explained it to me, modern manufacturing methods ensure parts are "very" close in weight. Additional quality control checks to ensure sets are within a given tolerance. The bottom line ... you could take the heaviest rod/piston assembly versus the lightest and they'd still be close enough not to be a concern.

All the better balancing shops in SO CA all claimed that they balanced all the rotating parts within + or- 1 gram
I ended up buying a Haus (SP?) brand triple beam gram scale and I mock up the rods to try and get them suspended half way up the lengths of the rods to check end weights, I've never had to send any parts back to a good balance shop due to weight differences in between the rods, pistons and so on All of them did say to not mixed the wrist pins though
I have not bought any balanced engine assemblies from 440 Source, yet, so I can't comment on their balancing

I have use two 440 source kits, had them both checked. They were right on. Never had any problems with the short block kits.

Just curious, several of you have mentioned that you have had 440 Sources work " checked" and it was dead nuts on.( it should be with the balancer they use) So, you pay $250 for Source to balance, then have your shop balance it again? So now you have a $500 balance job ( ?) when you could have A) Trusted the Source, since you had them do it in the first place, or B), just ordered it unbalanced and had your shop do it for the $250 anyhow? What am I missing here? There is no way to " check " a balance job, without weighing every component, and then setting up the bob weights and spinning the crank.

My machine shop bought the unbalanced 440 source 432 kit

He insisted on balancing it himself

Then I got to watch him weigh / spin the crank / drill / spin the crank

Something like that LOL

Does the harmonic Balancer and flexplate need to be part of the equation to obtain a proper balance? I’m guessing since nobody mentioned having to send theirs to the shop doing the balance job, No. but it was a thought I had.

Shouldn’t need it on an internally balanced engine but I know for sure you need it to balance an external balanced assembly

I send the balancers and flywheels in on all the rotating assemblies I have balanced, not the flexplates though

Watch the 440 source balancing video, then go down and see what kind of balancing machine your machine shop has. That should tell you who gets the job. On balancer and flywheels. The aftermarket ones should be neutral balanced . If they modify them for this particular engine build , every engine after that you want to use them on will have to be balanced also. Balancers and flywheels are costly enough you just don't toss them in the scrap heap.

I paid three times. Bought the 440 source balanced kit, new machine guy said he should check/balance the crank, put it together and had vibration, took apart and had trusted shop take out the weight the other shop put in to get it back to where it was originally....

After that, on my next stroker, I bought a nice scale and rod holding fixture and checked all the weights myself and they were very close, within a gram, so I used the kit as delivered and no problems with vibration, it is nice and smooth.

Who did you buy the rod fixture from? I want one

Cab make your own. $9.95 HF digital scale (which is just as accurate as my buddys high dollar one). level the rod untill the big/small end holes, their "centers" are the same height above the table & I dont think it needs to be dead on (iirc from talking to my shop). make a mark on the center of the scale platform to dead center/repeat where you set it where it contacts the rod bolt nut (when weighing the big end). make 2 magic marker "tic" marks on the rod on top where the dental floss comes up and around & touches the top side of the rod so you can duplicate that position each time. A magic mark on the horizontle rod so the dental floss stays put (or a touch of super glue). Get a weight then take the rod off & repeat & if you get the same weight or within a gram or two you are good. Dont even need the horizontle fixture I just happened to have it handy otherwise I would have tied the floss to the kitchen cabinet handle. The shop I go to weighs either the small or the big end then subtracts the one of those that they use from the total rod weight to get the weight of the other end (that reminds me to ask them again) but it might be beneficial to weigh both (& the total).

It reminds me of when people want their Front End Alignment checked ? Oh know I dont want to pay for an alignment I just want it checked ? Course I have to tell them to check it you have to put it on the machine which means you are paying for an alignment. Now after we check it we can adjust it if needed which is included. LoL Ron

So you have $700 + just in balancing? The second shop must of had a trainee working that day or some pretty crapy equipment.

I’m supprised 440 source hasn’t came out with aftermarket blocks for our cars. I think it would be cool to purchase an aftermarket 512 short block already assembled that’d be good for a 1,000 hp lol. Maybe the money just isn’t there.

Many have tried and failed BUT with bare used blocks now getting up there in price its not a bad idea. Make the block sufficient to take their 540 kit !!

I was on the list many many years ago for two blocks when Brandon(440source) was hoping to have a block cast. It was and still is a good idea but because of my age i officially give up my spot in line to a younger member

Years ago he was planning on coming out with a block. If memory serves the project died because the foundries he was working with wanted him to put in a minimum order for like 10,000 engine blocks and that was like decades worth of stock for 440source to eat. I can understand from the factory's point of view needing that many to make back tooling costs and to offer them for any kind of a reasonable price. Anyway, after that I think the idea was dead in the water.

"The Block" still appears that it is a viable option. They have had some learning pains with some bad machining, but the hope is that it is getting straightened out. There are blocks that are trickling out.