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SBM victor set up

Posted By: 420duster

SBM victor set up - 12/07/17 04:57 AM

Building a SB stroker over the winter and have some thoughts on using the new victors. My question is,what do i need to know ? Custom pistons,right ? What’s avail ? I’ve seen TTI headers,T&D rockers,what else ?! Thanks for any input
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/07/17 05:16 AM

I’m window shopping too but it probably won’t happen this Winter. It sounds like the big block mopar Harlan Sharp rockers may work on these heads if I’m reading right. See when you get from the info they have on the Jegs website as they must be the mininum offset needed. Custom pistons for sure and to make them worthwhile an R3 block should be used with a nice big roller cam
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/07/17 06:52 AM

Crower has custom rockers for the SV head... only engine I've heard of to date was one put together on a Ritter block. Member here had the build posted. Was done at Sherman Racing Engines in Pasadena TX. Seems there was another member here out of Florida that was doing a build.
Posted By: scottb

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/07/17 03:36 PM

Brett Miller is working on that head also go over to facebook page mopar W7 8-9 page and ask around also
Posted By: CJD AUTOMOTIVE

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/07/17 03:59 PM

I had Crower make the rockers for this head and Eddy offers a PN with pedestals milled.




Posted By: B1MAXX

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/07/17 07:21 PM

Looking at the photos, couldn't you run stud style rockers?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/08/17 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By B1MAXX
Looking at the photos, couldn't you run stud style rockers?

Why would you want to run a stud style rocker on any motor that is going to rev over 5000 RPM? confused
Posted By: B1MAXX

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/08/17 07:30 PM

Chevy's seem to do ok. Regardless, looks like that's what it was set up for, just wondering if it was? work
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 08:31 AM

Yes he is he has our original stuff from the Sherman build. Long story and I will start a post when we get closer to getting everything worked out it's been a long road kinda sucks being the first but it's gonna be worth it... I hope lol

As for parts anyone interested in building a victor head please PM me we have parts were no longer using that got used for a very short time and are like brand new.

Thanks , Jason Buckner
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 09:17 AM

The SB Chevy where the first to need and use a stud girdle due to the severe flexing of the individual studs walking around with race springs and high RPM, not good down work
The paired shaft or individual shaft rockers used today are way better for racing, especially high RPM, with high (above 700 Lbs.) spring pressures opened use today up scope
Posted By: B1MAXX

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
The SB Chevy where the first to need and use a stud girdle due to the severe flexing of the individual studs walking around with race springs and high RPM, not good down work
The paired shaft or individual shaft rockers used today are way better for racing, especially high RPM, with high (above 700 Lbs.) spring pressures opened use today up scope


I agree with all the above iagree .
However I have built several Chevy's with the inferior valve train whiney and some go relatively well, and sing a pretty high song whistling .
How ever you are correct beer the higher end stuff that I have built ( Big Duke/Chief) has individual shaft rockers.
My main reason for asking was I wonder how many more sets would sell boogie if in fact you could run 300$ set of Harland Sharp's or the like.
While very nice and top of the line the bill for those rockers had to be quite substantial eek up
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By Jason B
Yes he is he has our original stuff from the Sherman build. Long story and I will start a post when we get closer to getting everything worked out it's been a long road kinda sucks being the first but it's gonna be worth it... I hope lol

As for parts anyone interested in building a victor head please PM me we have parts were no longer using that got used for a very short time and are like brand new.

Thanks , Jason Buckner


hope it came apart because you wanted it apart.... Has the block been holding up? that seems to be the $1mil dollar question.
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 09:54 PM

I wish I could say it did.... trust me!!! The Sherman build lasted about 15 passes before we started having major bearing issues and having an issue with the motor not sealing up.
So.... we decided to go another direction and took it to another builder to put a fresh set of eyes on everything....

Just FYI I am not going to get on here and bash or talk S. about anyone me and my dad just decided that it was best to go elsewhere now with that said here's what happened in a readers digest version because trust me I'd have to write a novel...

Put motor on Dyno...Took engine apart bearing looked like hell checked everything replaced all bearings went over the oiling system. Swapped valve train to TD 1.6 with .650 offset. Had a new camshaft ground. Put back together, back on Dyno and picked up 90 peak HP over the Sherman build. Keep in mind different dyno but motor was dynoed prior to and after rebuild.

Went racing all was looking good car went a best of 9.01 at 148 in 3500' of soupy humid air so to say the least we were very happy. Went to next race in Dallas made 3 qualifying passes car slowed way down and on the 4th pass it chunked a rod out of the oil pan!

So did some assessments and determined that we had a hair line crack in the crankshaft we didn't know about that was effects from whatever happened with the Sherman build so .... fast forward 8 months till today... oh and NO issues with the Ritter block all looks good.

Brett Miller has put one of his port designs in our head and we are currently working out valve train issues due to this being a 59* build y'all know the challenges!! So when Brett finishes his part they go to Jesel for a custom setup as this currently seems the only way to make it work with a big port blown in this head! We had a custom sheet metal intake built by TRE and another camshaft spec ground so ...... oh and new rods, new crank, external oil system setup..... ANYONE KNOW A SPONSOR IM BROKE... lol

ARE YALL AS EXCITED AS WE ARE I HOPE!!! We shall see what happens projections are to have this thing back on the dyno hopefully by end of January!
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 11:39 PM

Wholly crap!!!!!!!!!! After reading that I think I will do a freshen job on my engine, upgrade it to a roller cam, and button it back up. If I pick up .20 and it goes 9.20's be happy.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/09/17 11:49 PM

dang.... not what anybody wanted to hear Jason. If it had nothing to do with the block it sure seems a lil black cloud follows wherever they go. I'd be so nervous at that point I'd be pulling covers and the pan after the first few passes.... for a few events until my comfort level was out of the red. Sure was hauling the mail. It would be fun to have 8-10 more mph on mine, but it sure has been trouble free "as is" (9.37@142 best)
Posted By: W5DART66

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 12:32 AM

Posted By: W5DART66

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 12:34 AM







Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 12:55 AM

Lol and there you Brett just posted the new motor PORN pictures LOL....

Guys people need to start working on this stuff we will never get anything made for us if nobody starts buying these heads. What else can you buy and run 9.0s with out of the box heads unported with a cast intake. Nothing wrong with heads or block it just needs someone to pay attention to detail.

We decided to take it this far just because nobody else has and someone needs to see what we have so now that I'm doing all the RD lets get some projects going!

You take a 408" motor mild cam with these heads out of the box cast intake in my opinion will make enough HP to take a 3000lb car 9.50s so I'm not sure why no one is doing this because we now have something similar to the Chevy guys. You can buy everything off the shelf and go race. We have already figured everything out for y'all so if you have any questions just ask!

All that just my opinion guys I just want to see more projects going we are looking forward to making good power with these bad ass Brett Miller heads
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By Jason B
Lol and there you Brett just posted the new motor PORN pictures LOL....

Guys people need to start working on this stuff we will never get anything made for us if nobody starts buying these heads. What else can you buy and run 9.0s with out of the box heads unported with a cast intake. Nothing wrong with heads or block it just needs someone to pay attention to detail.

We decided to take it this far just because nobody else has and someone needs to see what we have so now that I'm doing all the RD lets get some projects going!

You take a 408" motor mild cam with these heads out of the box cast intake in my opinion will make enough HP to take a 3000lb car 9.50s so I'm not sure why no one is doing this because we now have something similar to the Chevy guys. You can buy everything off the shelf and go race. We have already figured everything out for y'all so if you have any questions just ask!

All that just my opinion guys I just want to see more projects going we are looking forward to making good power with these bad ass Brett Miller heads



Frankly, it isnt hard at 3000 pounds to run 9.50's with even W5 or Indy heads and a non . Radical cam.What i think is scaring people is the buy in to get these things up and running for what thus far at least are unproven results.
Posted By: Dadodgekid

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 03:46 AM

Do the SB victors oil through the head or pushrod oiling?
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 04:25 AM

Originally Posted By Jason B
Lol and there you Brett just posted the new motor PORN pictures LOL....

Guys people need to start working on this stuff we will never get anything made for us if nobody starts buying these heads. What else can you buy and run 9.0s with out of the box heads unported with a cast intake. Nothing wrong with heads or block it just needs someone to pay attention to detail.

We decided to take it this far just because nobody else has and someone needs to see what we have so now that I'm doing all the RD lets get some projects going!

You take a 408" motor mild cam with these heads out of the box cast intake in my opinion will make enough HP to take a 3000lb car 9.50s so I'm not sure why no one is doing this because we now have something similar to the Chevy guys. You can buy everything off the shelf and go race. We have already figured everything out for y'all so if you have any questions just ask!

All that just my opinion guys I just want to see more projects going we are looking forward to making good power with these bad ass Brett Miller heads
unfortunately I killed probably 10 sets of bearings.. and a bunch of other good parts on the way.. the issue with mine was 100% the blocks fault.. finally was able to get it squared away.. have approximately 24 passes in all or oil filters are beautiful.. before I was replacing bearings at 10 to 12 runs.. and never found a good oil filter.. there's another guy running around here with a Ritter block that is killing bearings to.. i
Posted By: scottb

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 05:51 AM

Maybe the guy over on W7-8-9 can get Mopar to give him the ok to start making some blocks soon
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:18 AM

I agree on the 9.50 comment.. but as far as the heads being unproven I have to disagree. We no more took them out of the box put what cam we thought might work and used that BS intake Edelbrock provides for them and went 9.20s. Then we beat on it a little more and go 9.0s so I'm not sure how that's unproven we I am the only one trying to make them work. They flow better than any out of the box head that has ever been available to us and all everyone has done so far is complain about the price. It is what it is it's not cheap to race we all know this! Nobody says you have to use a Ritter block somebody take a R3 or hell even a stock block and put a set on see what happens. Unless people start working on the combination we will never know. We did it the way we thought was best so someone else needs to try another road.
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:19 AM

Are you still using a Ritter block..
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By scottb
Maybe the guy over on W7-8-9 can get Mopar to give him the ok to start making some blocks soon
Kent will do everything in his power to keep that R3 right where it's at.. if they were reproduce.it would hurt his investment.. and he knows people.. not a proven fact just a suspicion of mind..
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:23 AM

I feel your pain brother I pray like hell its not the block... man we have looked in every place we can think of for any issues and can't find anything to say it's the block. The oiling system has been looked over more than a truck stop hooker lol..

Hopefully all goes well with this new direction we're going with the external oil pump custome pan and new crank. BTW way man love your car good looking ride and it hauls ass!! Keep beating on that thing those are some great numbers!!
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:24 AM

Yes sir kinda married to it ...
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:28 AM

As far as Ritter is concerned he has always been very nice and offered to help in anyway possible my engine builder has been on the phone with him more than once discussing the oiling system making sure they were doing everything correct. So as far as I'm concerned he's ok in my book at least the guys trying to give us something good to use
Posted By: Dadodgekid

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 06:57 AM

Steve D from engine masters has Set of Victors on a pump gas 410 SB right now. Im watching it closely to see what they make on a street setup. He is even trying an RPM air gap manifold on them!! killer R&D if you ask me!!
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By Jason B
I agree on the 9.50 comment.. but as far as the heads being unproven I have to disagree. We no more took them out of the box put what cam we thought might work and used that BS intake Edelbrock provides for them and went 9.20s. Then we beat on it a little more and go 9.0s so I'm not sure how that's unproven we I am the only one trying to make them work. They flow better than any out of the box head that has ever been available to us and all everyone has done so far is complain about the price. It is what it is it's not cheap to race we all know this! Nobody says you have to use a Ritter block somebody take a R3 or hell even a stock block and put a set on see what happens. Unless people start working on the combination we will never know. We did it the way we thought was best so someone else needs to try another road.


Good to see that you are making good power with these heads and i sure agree about all the complaints,its almost funny how people are complaining about the cost of a set of heads only to go and buy a head that is worse out of the box then spending more money on porting,correcting and changing other hardware than it would have cost in the first place to go with the "right" head..
Posted By: 420duster

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 03:37 PM

Steve D from engine masters has Set of Victors on a pump gas 410 SB right now. Im watching it closely to see what they make on a street setup. He is even trying an RPM air gap manifold on them!! killer R&D if you ask me!!

I can’t seem to find this anywhere ?! Any link ?
Posted By: 420duster

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 03:38 PM

Thanks for all the info so far guys,keep it coming !
Posted By: Dadodgekid

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/10/17 08:05 PM

Its on Instagram. They are making an episode of enginemaster soon with it
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 02:04 AM

We'll be using one of Peterson fluid's 2 or 3 stage external pump on our 434...the block needs to be carefully looked at for restrictions in the galleys.
I have no doubt the Victors OOTB are damn good, but I know they can also be better.
Very good casting though...
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 02:26 AM

Where are you guys bringing in the oil at on the Ritter block.. China wall or Factory location
Posted By: scottb

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 04:55 AM

The head differently can make some good power I’ve looked at the numbers Brett has posted the 1 thing I see holding them back is if your looking at a head swap there not just bolt them on and go your going to build a new short block due to the valve angle I looked at them before I did my W9 heads the W9 are hard to beat for the cost of the casting compared to the victors either way your looking at a 1200-1700 rocket set up to due it the right way
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By scottb
The head differently can make some good power I’ve looked at the numbers Brett has posted the 1 thing I see holding them back is if your looking at a head swap there not just bolt them on and go your going to build a new short block due to the valve angle I looked at them before I did my W9 heads the W9 are hard to beat for the cost of the casting compared to the victors either way your looking at a 1200-1700 rocket set up to due it the right way


Yep. Headers are very expensive too. Only TTI currently makes a set and they are proud of them.
Then the lousy super victor most would run on these heads needs lots of work to make it any good.
By the time you figure almost 4 grand for a bare pair of heads, expensive rocker gear, headers, different pistons required, etc, its worth taking a good look at W8/9 which probably have more potential and might well be cheaper in the whole scheme of things.
Guys spouting off about people complaining should probably take a look at what ALL is involved here cost wise. I am far from a cheap skate, just have yet to see the " value for dollar" with these at the current price point
And yes, Indy head motor would be be WAY cheaper to do and not a real big difference in potential for what most guys would use the motor for.

I am seriously contemplating the new trick flow small block heads to stick on the 418 shortblock i have sitting around. Those LOOK like a good bang for the buck head. they will probably do what i am hoping they will. Until worthwhile blocks are ever built again, all this stuff is gonna be ultra low amount of guys anyhow.
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 05:27 AM

The pump just came in the other day we haven't decided yet.. we have talked about feeding it through the oil filter location and moving the filter up to the front. Nothing set in stone yet, the china wall option is a good one also I'll keep ya posted on what we do.
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 06:03 AM

Full well aware of the cost involved bud. Fact remains they flow better than any out of the box head EVER offered. so say what you want I went 9.0s with unported heads and that lousy unported super Victor intake pretty damn good in my book.

And this was very early in our testing at 3500' completely gutted air!

Attached picture IMG_0011.JPG
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 06:08 AM

Great pass
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 06:09 AM

I sent you a PM
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 06:19 AM

Nice pass Jason. Whats your car weigh? What tranny?
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 06:37 AM

2800 ready to race with me in it. At that time it was a 904 but we had issues with tire spin that night it was a test n tune night and there was little to no track prep. The 60 should have been much better.

This new combination going together is gonna be a complete new animal we swapped to a glide so we shall see how that goes
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Great pass


I agree! I believe the China wall will be a far better place to bring the oil in from what I've seen on our cast iron block...assuming yours is the same.
Where are you bringing in oil on yours Shiloh?
Posted By: BradH

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 09:49 PM

Originally Posted By CJD AUTOMOTIVE
I had Crower make the rockers for this head and Eddy offers a PN with pedestals milled.

drool

I wonder if those could be adapted to work on a BB? What are the offsets and fulcrum lengths, if you have that info? And do they use a stock diameter shaft, or something specific to those rockers since they're paired?
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/11/17 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By ou812
Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Great pass


I agree! I believe the China wall will be a far better place to bring the oil in from what I've seen on our cast iron block...assuming yours is the same.
Where are you bringing in oil on yours Shiloh?
bringing it in the China wall.. Brian you can always call me anytime if you would like to compare notes...
Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 12:04 AM

Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Originally Posted By ou812
Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Great pass


I agree! I believe the China wall will be a far better place to bring the oil in from what I've seen on our cast iron block...assuming yours is the same.
Where are you bringing in oil on yours Shiloh?
bringing it in the China wall.. Brian you can always call me anytime if you would like to compare notes...


I will do that when I start working on it again....prolly Feb.
Thank you!
Posted By: dvw

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 12:44 AM

Originally Posted By WHITEDART
the issue with mine was 100% the blocks fault.. finally was able to get it squared away.. have approximately 24 passes in all or oil filters are beautiful.. before I was replacing bearings at 10 to 12 runs.. and never found a good oil filter.. there's another guy running around here with a Ritter block that is killing bearings to.. i

So what was the block issue? How did you fix your bearing problem?
Doug
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 01:21 AM

This image is looking at the front of the block

Attached picture Screenshot_20171213-151923.jpg
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 01:22 AM

The top plug is the lifter galley.. the bottom plug is the main feed.. don't pay any attention to the one that has the milk running out of it that's the cam tunnel drain
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 01:24 AM

This picture is taken with the main feed plug out looking up towards the lifter galley... the one with the light coming through it was down size to 5/16.. just before it got to the main feed which was clearly not enough oil to feed all the rods and mains

Attached picture 20171213_151819.png
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 01:29 AM

This picture was taken looking down from the top of the China wall it was drilled short approximately 1in of hitting the main feed... I upsized the drill bit one at a time until until I was happy with the size.. and yes in the top photo there was water in the oil because of porosity in the Block in the cam tunnel area just in case you were wondering what that white stuff was... essentially cutting our Dyno day short
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 01:30 AM

Last photo

Attached picture 20171213_151857.png
Posted By: scottb

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 03:43 AM

That block has had nothing but problems since the day it hit the market can not believe Kent has not gotten all these problems fixed he could sell them as fast as he could build them if he was to get the machine work straightened out
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 04:03 AM

Scott trust me he knows that I've talked to him a few times he's a one man show I believe he's doing what he can he has fought several issues with the foundries making the blocks. Last I spoke to him he was going to a new foundry with high hopes not sure if he's had any luck. But as I said before at least he's trying
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 04:05 AM

Oh and keep in mind if jump on to some of these threads with guys talking about the aftermarket big blocks World, KB, Indy they ALL have issues so we're not the only ones fighting problems finding good blocks.
Posted By: B3422W5

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 04:42 AM

Originally Posted By Jason B
Scott trust me he knows that I've talked to him a few times he's a one man show I believe he's doing what he can he has fought several issues with the foundries making the blocks. Last I spoke to him he was going to a new foundry with high hopes not sure if he's had any luck. But as I said before at least he's trying


Your a good and patient man. Kent should be skinned alive for taking money for such junk
Posted By: scottb

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 04:53 AM

Kent could have talked with maskin about doing his block and I’m sure we would not be talking about quality control instead he chose to go the cheaper route now the block has nothing but bad press
Posted By: Jason B

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 12:48 PM

Lol Scott I have no other choice than to be patient.... it's all we to use, so we have to either figure it out or be stuck with what we can find on EBay! I agree he had many other options why he chose to go the route he did is unknown. In the meantime I just hope and pray that the information Shiloh shared will fix our issues we have on ours. I'll keep everyone posted but hopefully we're back on the dyno with the new setup by the end of January.

GOOD LUCK GUYS AND MERRY CHRISTMAS

JASON
Posted By: 69 lawndart

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 04:40 PM

At this point in time the aluminum Ritter block in mine has been great, no problems. WhiteDart are you feeding the oil into the motor on the front China wall? I drilled and taped the hole between the upper and lower oil gallies and put a restricter in to slow the oil down going to the top end. I am feeding mine through the back of the block.
Posted By: scottb

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 06:57 PM

I wish you guys all the best of luck with that Ritter block its not a money matter Kent has plenty of that he has all the connection to make a good block he just chose a cheaper way out Ryan from Shady Dell has a couple of those blocks running you might want to talk with Ryan
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/14/17 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By 69 lawndart
At this point in time the aluminum Ritter block in mine has been great, no problems. WhiteDart are you feeding the oil into the motor on the front China wall? I drilled and taped the hole between the upper and lower oil gallies and put a restricter in to slow the oil down going to the top end. I am feeding mine through the back of the block.
when you say at this point in time.. is that because you have had bearing issues also??.. how many passes has it been happy.. mine is restricted at the bushing.. I thought you were running bushings as well
Posted By: 69 lawndart

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/15/17 06:10 AM

Yes sir I did have some bearing issues with bearings. I do not blame the block, I will take the blame for that mistake. There is 17 passes and about 1800 miles on it. Yes I did put bushings it. Please understand I'm not saying the block is perfect but it is usable, the first R3 block I got wasn't perfect either I had to do a lot of work to it.
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: SBM victor set up - 12/15/17 07:23 AM

That is great news..how fast has it went .. the aluminum block has my interest unfortunately I can't give him any more of my money..
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