511 project hp falls short of target

Just ran my 511 build numbers thru Dynomation5. 654hp/627tq. I think that's probably real close by the feel of it compared to my 590hp 408 I had. This program was real close with my SB build. Was hoping to get 700+ on pump gas. Looks like compression and more cam will be in order. 511 with E victor max wedge heads with solid flat tappet currently.

You are gonna have to take it to the track & tune 1st

The track always shows you what you have. I think it would be lucky to run a 10.50 the way it sits.

Put a roller in it

Read your post quickly and I'm just gonna rattle off what came to mind:
1. F**k those dyno software programs. I own four of them, ranging from cheapo to "Professional" level and NONE of them give results that match what I've found in the real world without my gaming the inputs significantly to tweak the results.

2. How much does your car weigh with driver?

3. Is it a stick car or an automatic? If auto, what type of converter?

4. How much gear do you run and with what size & type of tires?

5. What are you running for fuel? Have you tested different timing settings?

6. What's your performance goal? I don't mean "700 HP on pump gas", I mean an ET goal. If the car ran 9.99, would it be legal at the track vs. only going 10.00?

7. "Seat of the pants" testing on the street is next to worthless. Too many variables, too little traction, etc. I've done things in the past that I'd swear would show up as improvements on the track that didn't, but my "butt dyno" told me it would.

8. Until you either pull the engine and put it on a reputable engine dyno OR spend a solid day at track working on the tune, so that you can get some real-world #s, you have no idea beyond an educated guess what that engine's making.

what are you putting it in ?
my 505 makes maybe 615 and has gone 10.53 @ around 3660lbs .
I only have cnc 440 source heads and 4150 carb.
until you run it you are only second guessing .

Tex

Gonna get the intake ported for now and run it. I think what would really wake this thing up would be to shave the heads .030" which would put static at 12:1 and install a roller like the one Dom runs. Something like 276/281.

I agree with all of that. Been there done that. If i think its same performance as my small block then its probably slower. The track always humbles me. 9.99 or quicker has been the goal. I figured 700hp would get me there. Race weight is 3380.

Wallace calc says 654hp with 3380 weight at best should run 10.07.

With a few tweeks you didnt make your smallblock would have run 9's. Lots of very similar combos out there doing so

If it would of stayed together it would been in the 9.90's im sure. Those indys were maxed out per Dwayne Welder and it was 13:1 compression and 80# lighter. I like the BB though. Ill get it figured out. Its all just time and money right now. I think most would love the way it runs, alot of fun to street drive. My goals are usually lofty thats all.

Smallish cam, smallish numbers. You want big numbers? Put a cam in it and run it to 7,800. I know from my "butt" experience that that big block is gonna feel way different than a 408.

Didnt you run 10.30's with it?

10.35 was its best run. Solid 10.40's last season i ran it . it went 8 season street/strip.

I agree. But really not day night difference like i expected.

Have you put the engine in the car yet? I ran a buddy of mines Dart with a 414 that runs about the same e.t. as my Challenger and it was night and day different. The small block felt like it was going 10 grand down there and not pulling at all compared to my car.

Yeah. The 511 been in a couple months now. Been tuning on it with a wideband with what little time i have. Runs good, just not as good as i expected. I can feel more torque over the SB. Breaks the hoosiers loose at 35 in 2nd gear. SB couldnt do that. Guess i was expecting something i might be afraid of. Not afraid at all.

Bigger heads, bigger carb. will make more power and go faster
My old 518 C.I. 400 pump gas stroker(4.375x4.300 stroke) ran 10.30 with the ported Eddy RPM and the low deck six pack at 127.+ MPH a bunch of times. Swap heads to a set of Indy SR M.W. ports and a 400-3 intake with a single 1050 dominator and it ran low tens at 134.+ MPH, same cam, a little more compression, 84 CC heads to 76 CC heads, 10.29 to 1 to 10.76 to 1 comp ratio
That car weighed 3450 Lbs. with me in it, it ran that through the 3.0 inch full exhaust system to the rear bumper and the air cleaners on both set ups

Not far off from this 511 cab. Like said earlier. Bump compression to 12:1 and stick the same solid roller in it that Dom uses.

Without dyno testing it, you'll never know what it really makes....... Period.

You want 700hp...... For sure?
Put it on the dyno and start swapping parts til you get there.
Then put it in the car and see what it runs.

The time slip is a report card on how well the entire combination works..... Not just how good the motor is, or how much power it makes.

I've seen first hand both ends of the spectrum on that.
Cars that actually exceed the performance of the calculators, and cars that don't even come close.

I just had a motor on the dyno about a month ago..... Made 443hp.
Two weeks ago it was in the car at the track for a test n tune.
Went 11.34@117, at 3600lbs.
Shows 445 on the Moroso chart.

I know if I had that pile of parts for your 511 on the dyno, I'd be expecting more than 650hp.

Like BradH said, those computer programs are a joke. Take it to the track and run it.

well, my last experience with the engine was not a good one, so engine dynos are out. chassis dyno maybe, now my plan is to get it out to the track next year. it still needs an alignment and gear change. I think my good weather is gone for the season as well. I agree, a time slip is always the best.

Like Dwayne said, sometimes those programs are real close. My 408 was off by 12hp.

Definitely not what I said.

Several years ago I ported a set of SB rpm heads and sold a roller cam to a Moparts member for his bracket race challenger with a 419 stroker in it.
He was looking to improve his combo to run solid 10's.
He messed with it for a full season...... Never got his 10.
Converter changes, gear changes, all kinds of small stuff..... Car was stuck in the low 11's.
Motor hadn't been dyno tested....... No telling what it actually made.
He was thinking of making some pretty significant motor combo changes in his quest for 10's.

I told him that his motor combo should be making 575hp.
But without knowing the quality of the machine work, etc...... Perhaps it wasn't making what it should.
He was convinced the motor was just not making the power it needed to for him to get into the 10's.
I suggested that before he pulls it all apart, to just take the motor out and have it tested, so at least he could see what it had, and how the car was running compared to what it "should" run.

He couldn't find anyone near him who was set up to test a Mopar, so he crated it up and shipped it to me.
He sent his headers, carbs, timing light, etc.

I put it on the dyno, warmed it up, set the timing with his light to where he said it worked best....... And made a pull.
576hp

There was nothing wrong with the motor, he had things that needed sorting out in the car.

Armed with that info, he approached the lack of performance as a "car" issue, not a motor issue.

New converter over the winter, trans redone, wiring, fuel system upgrades, etc.

Put the motor back in just as it was when he pulled it out.
10.80's off the trailer......... Ultimately that combo ran 10.60's.

Later on, a little more porting, bigger intake valves, and a more aggressive cam had it running 10.40's at around 3450lbs.

Not really what I said there either.

I use the power/speed charts and calculators to gauge how good or bad the car is at making use of the available power.

If you don't know what the power is to begin with, then they aren't all that useful
IMO.

From what I've seen, the "typical" street/strip or bracket car should be able to run within 10% of what the Moroso chart shows for power and weight.

If the motor makes 500hp, the car should be at least able to show 450hp on the Moroso chart.
Really good cars will be much closer to 100%...... And once in a while a combo will show better than 100%.
But, without dyno numbers....... You don't know where you really are.
Is your combination 100%, 90%, 80% efficient?

Isky has my cam card on file and I will shoot ya my specs later.......run it no matter what anyone says and enjoy what I do daily..........haulin ass, docile on the street and easy 9's..........

You think another 50hp is going to change that?
I wouldn't count on it.

If you want to be scared, better start formulating a plan for around 850-900hp.
Start saving for that turbo kit.

I'll admit that when I first test drove my hemi, it shocked me. It makes somewhere around 825-850 hp...the 440 it replaced made a little over 600 hp. That was a big jump.

If an engine is going to let loose, it's going to do it in the car just as easily as on an engine dyno.

Did you trace your engine dyno incident back to the root cause? Such as:
1. Dyno operator not experienced and/or did something stoopid that hurt the engine like over-heating it
2. Engine built properly, but had a legitimately unexpected parts failure on the dyno
3. Engine not built properly and that reared its ugly head on the dyno

I've done four engine dyno sessions over the last 20 years. A couple of them encountered no issues at all. One in particular definitely helped identify some issues with the valve train that would have been far less "convenient" to have run into driving the car miles from home.

You've run faster than I have by a couple of tenths, so I'm sure you'll figure it out. However, some of the things you said -- like the above comment on engine dynos -- leave me scratching my head.

LOL! yur probably right. After riding sport bikes, it would be tough.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

thanks Dom

Dont forget, Doms car runs in the 9's but its considerably lighter than yours is.
You add on that weight its no guarantee yours would.
Before i ran a cam somebody with a different car/ combo/ weight runs i would give that more thought.
Its all about YOUR combo and what it might like.

No I never did. It was my 5th engine I have put together. not a pro engine builder, but I built it with more attention to detail than any of the previous motors. I still don't think it was my fault, but who knows. The shop owner and I do not get along after he charged me for flowing some heads that had flow numbers the matched the indy flow sheet perfectly, every number at each lift.I get along with his son who runs the shop and is a good tuner I thought. I dropped the engine off 3 days ahead of time so he could get it hooked up. Fired it up and had to shut it down because a plate he had between crank and output shaft was rattling. don't know how long it ran like that before I got there. fired back up 80# oil pressure once hot, made 5 pulls and it cam apart.
https://youtu.be/hgoORq5ryWw
I now understand they blow up a lot of motor on that dyno.

well, I currently have a cam it that was spec'ed for the motor.

I've done four engine dyno sessions over the last 20 years. A couple of them encountered no issues at all. One in particular definitely helped identify some issues with the valve train that would have been far less "convenient" to have run into driving the car miles from home.

I had the same thing happen to me, and I was very glad it was on the dyno.
My Hemi is not living up to my expectations using the ET / MPH calculators ,so it will be going on the dyno .

Mark

True so let's see a chassis dyno w/it as is then try my cam and I was 3200+ went I went my first 9.79 at 135.59 lean as hell............I like to lead not follow............

well, that's about 180# difference. Your motor would run circles around this 511. I think your cam and more compression is the answer.

I had it ground for me by me and couldn't be happier and generally when someone suggest a cam for you, they fall short on duration and lift imo and NEVER say street driven...........MOPAR's like fuel, compression and go faster 99% of the time IF you have the right gear and converter then there's the carbs........More is usually better as well and no 4150's on Big Blocks either............

I'm sure that 276/281 roller would really spike up the cranking pressure numbers.

Not sure on that Fast cos I only have 175 cc but may need to check again and may even add some timing since the RPM's have a crappy stock-like chamber...........

Dave,

What are the specs of the SFT cam in it now?

What is your calculated CR?

Thanks - Brad

Dyno numbers can be influence with the same things as track performance such as weather, bad batch of pump fuel, bad timing lights and so on
Torque converters, bad or half bad, can really influence the cars performance, fuel system, traction, drivers technique and the list goes on until you get all of them perfect from the front bumper bolts to the rear bumper bolts

Sometimes you just have to work on a combo to get it dialed in. I had 85 dyno pulls on my 470 engine. It started off at 620 hp and we picked up 100 hp to 720. Took us some time, changed cams, rocker arms, intakes, carbs, etc. Finally figured out what the engine wanted.

here's the card. static 11.26:1

yes it does.

If I'm reading that cam card correctly:
302/308 at .020"
270/276 at .050"
110 LSA installed on (105?)
.600+" lift

Doesn't sound unreasonable for a 511 w/ that much compression that's expected to run on straight 93.

What type of rings & gaps did you use? And what sort of block prep?

If you go 12:1, you know your days of being able to run straight 93 w/o blending some good stuff when you really romp on it are most likely gone, right? That's especially so if you decide to tighten up the LSA that'll bump up even more cylinder pressure than the CR change alone.

I'm still of the opinion that until you take it to the track (if an engine dyno session isn't in your future) and get a chance to actually tune it, you're still in the Twilight Zone as far as knowing what it can do.

Regardless, good luck with it. I can only stand on the sidelines and see how this develops from here on out.

I had a stock stroke 440 with about the same compression the best is in my signature so you should be close if not better. Like everyone else said take that car to the track and run it

Good luck with the tuning

On the dyno, where did you have your timing at? And refresh my memory, what compression and what cam?

I can tell you, my 512's like timing on pump gas...AND, depending on whether its E10 or Ethanol free, my jetting can be as much as +4 jet sizes different.

You have to tune for this, its not somthing you buy a carb and get it right out of the box..Same with timing, you have to try it to know.

i am curious about the springs on the card,120/360..is that the seat and open pressure. it seems low?

I agree, my solid FT is much smaller & required 155/390

I'm not sure what I wrote there, but its not my spring pressure. The pressures are 145/410. Gonna run my current combo next season to get a baseline, then shave heads about .030". This will get about 11.9/12:1 compression with Doms cam which is a 274/280@50 on a 108 and .440/.427 lobes. That should push it to close to 700hp or over and into the 9.90's I would think.

I believe they were total seal 1/16 moly rings. If the cam has enough overlap 93 shouldn't be a problem for cruising. Dom does it. I have been thru ever circuit in this Dominator. Every circuit I drilled and set screws added with a precision hole that I drilled. Been tuning on this Dominator for awhile with Doms help. I think its there or very close. I will try more timing because I think that what it probably wants.

At your weight 650 will easily get you in the 9's. Definately dont need anywhere near 700
My W5 car weighed almost exactly what yours does( 3350), ran 9.80's and made maybe 650 at the most. More like probably 640
The new owner" hopped it up" and made 700 with it, and ran 9.62@ 140 with it, good bit more more MPH than i ever ran. This was dynoed at Best Machine and made 708. Dyno and ET line up.

This is going to be a long winter with you thinking about this but you should be mentally prepared in the spring when it is time to go to the track.Good luck.

MoparRich built and dyno tuned my Edelbrock headed 493 and it made 650 something. Comp. 308blahblah roller. I ran 9.24 at 145 with it in great air at Sonoma. The car was 2,600 lbs. though. 727, 5,900 stall, 4.29 gear.

The cam and compression increase is just a secondary plan. I will send the intake out for now and work around this flat tappet first. Once to the track and decide from there.

The 276-282 is after tightening up the recommended .028 lash to .020 hot and Isky and others say that brings the duration up in the process so that's why I've used those numbers...........I've been saying 276-281 forever so who knows........ This cam has gentle lobes and has been awesome for many years plus your cubes will eat a bit of duration as well so maybe BIGGER is even better..........

Im not afraid of that roller. If i were picking cams from catalog your cam is the one id pick. Even with a street car i would still want something on a 108 and a bit more lift. Your cam fits the bill in my opinion.

From the sounds of it, and by the title of this post....... You've already made up your mind that combo isn't what you want.
Might as well just start buying the new parts now........ You'll have all winter to change it over.

Yep. No sense wasting time trying to find a hundred HP with tune up stuff. Jus buy what you want and get it back together and then on a dyno.

Overlap doesn't have anything to do with cylinder pressure. The intake valve closing point determines that. I believe Dom lives in at a higher altitude where octane is less important, too.

How much timing are you talking about? What type of heads and compression ratio?

And why not.........it's "REAL WORLD" not dyno proven, hauls the mail, has gentle lobes and will spit out a 6.0 here very soon. This is no different than everyone offering their opinions but I guess mine mean very little which is funny as hell as I test more than most and run respectably......... Who want's to sit in a dyno all day or days and test when SOME of us already know what the results will be to a point I know I don't and never have other than some chassis stuff which is closer to reality than a dyno cell but whatever works I guess........You will fly Dave and the street manners will blow all "theory" outta the water I promise you..........

I think it just needs a little tweeking to get there. Its got cubic inches and great heads. It might surprise me at the track as is, but the only suprises i ever get at the track is that your car isnt as fast as your thought it was.

Iv ran it from 31 to 36. Compression is 11.26 and heads are victor max wedge heads with 76cc cnc chambers.

I bet it runs faster at the track w/ 36 or more.

On pump gas, maybe not OP, your butt dyno has probably now acclimated to the new motor
Shredding the tires at will in second gear now makes it faster than the old motor

Ain't that the truth^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ha ha ha ha...'atta boy Brad!

Car is good to 10.00, but I only need to run a 9.99 1 time. I'm just about done with this track stuff and will be selling my trailer soon. Car is an auto and I use hoosier QTP with a 4.30 gear which will be switched out next yr for my 4.10. Again, the track is the best dyno and the most fun.

If you have so much fun at the track why are you giving it up?

Why not schedule a day on a chassis dyno and tune it before you start changing parts?

I was just tryin to keep it real, bro.

$$$$$$

Well, chassis dynos are a fun day as well, but every time I tune on a chassis dyno I have to retune the carb when I get to the track.

I disagree. Testing on my streets with a wideband is definitely worth something. This dominator has some very good street manners now thanks to the wideband and the help of Dom.

Testing for streetability, sure. Testing for max power...nope.

The last 3 engines....... well the same engine with a different combo were engine dyno’d then stuck in the car. Everytime we have used the Moroso slide calculator the car ran almost the exact MPH the calculator told us, but the ET was off a couple tenths on each build suggesting I have some chassis issues or a combo that is slightly off.
However at a Line weight of 4100 I am quite happy with a 10 teen ET.
My last build peaked at 838 HP. Average HP was 776.
The calculator says a perfect run is 9.95 at my weight which is 2/10 off where I am at.
The car runs a consistent number and that makes me happy. I could mess with a few things but I’m close to that 10.0 range already and the one track I run at does not take kindly to sub 10 runs without the safety equipment.
This winter will Be weight reduction if anything just to take stress off everything. Would like to get to 3900 if possible.

Then you are doing something wrong. If you consider a jet change or air bleed a retune then that's different.

It's not unusual to make minor tune up changes after dyno with a crank or a wheel dyno. The difference is you aren't guessing at what you have.

Like someone mentioned above, I worked with a chassis dyno for years. When something came off they dyno I was usually within 1-2 MPH of what the car should do.

MPH is HP and ET is hook. So if it runs the MPH for the dyno HP then the numbers are valid.

I get BOTH but it takes time, patience and KNOWLEDGE but the end results are well worth it........I agree about hittin the track(forget the dyno)and seeing what ya got at that point then change what's necessary to meet your goal IF it doesn't already..........

Yep hit the track then you get to do the chassis tune at the same time.

Well then i have to disagree. My experience with chassis dyno tuning has been i always had to rejet at the track after a chassis dyno tune. I cant remember which way but i think it was richer to achieve max mph. This has happened every time and my car has been on a chassis dyno aleast 8 times. I will agree that i would find best timing on a chassis dyno, but why not just go to the track and find both?

dyno is ease of repeatability and quickness of getting result . I have only used a chassis dyno but found an hour or two is a good thing . Timing loop and AF settings . Really I only depend on the AF number , if that is correct after timing loop then its time to run it down the strip .
and yes the dyno can occasionally throw you a curve ball .

Tex

Yep, you can find best timing on the chassis dyno.

The car on a chassis dyno compared to the same car at the track has two different condition it is dealing with, just like the engine on a engine dyno compared to at the track
On the chassis dyno no moving air is affecting the carb. air inlet temps and no oil is sloshing around in the crankcase, same thing on the engine dyno
Hence the old adage about we don't race dyno, do we

YOU get it but you should after ALL of those years of racing..........

Yep. Your exactly right Cab. The air is all different hence the reason for the jetting changes.

Dave...I have been watching this. I am going to be honest and tell ya that I wouldn't spend another dime till I put it down the track a few times. Good luck!

The season is just about over for me. 40* and rains just about everyday now. Still gonna do the intake and double adj. Shocks on front. Oh, needs the 4.10 gear too. Something else i'm thinking about is the hp deficit the milodon oil pump with 20/50 oil and the mechanical water pump with flex fan is causing. May be 40-50hp right there. I dont always take the easy road. I built this combo trying to make 700+hp without all the electrical components and on pump gas.

Yeah, how many times have you seen engines making 550hp on the engine dyno and put 350 to the tire on the chassis dyno (in street trim). Easy to lose well over 100hp from simple accessories. Check out the recent engine masters air-cleaner shootout. Well over 100hp loss on a 650hp engine by choosing an incorrect air cleaner. Jaguar clutch fan mod is a great choice for most of us if you have clearance issues, other than running a mechanical which will cost 25-30hp alone. Good luck on your build.

I went to Dragway42 last Friday night, got one pass in before it poured rain, hoping to go this Saturday but there's some rain in the forecast again. I agree that you just need to get it to a track, and if the season is over then maybe a chassis dyno session or wait til early spring for a track day. I've raced my whole life and I've never ever used an engine dyno or a chassis dyno. I set the timing at 34 and jet the carb with some homework. Make some passes jetting up and down, then make some passes moving the timing up and down. Then test some shift points etc.

Every car I've switched over to an electric water pump has dropped 1.5 tenths in the 1/4. I'm currently running a mechanical water pump and flex fan and already have the desire to try an electric water pump, but it's a 10 second street car driven to the track so I like my mechanical setup.

this build was intended to be mostly street as well. Gonna run it with all the mechanical components first. I'll get there, just running out of time this yr.

Pretty much what i have always done. I have swapped to electric fan and pump on two cars and seen right around a tenth both times.
Saw a little more gain swapping out bias tires for radials, actually about .013

I like this topic, I have some experience with dyno numbers and track results. Not all dynos are created equal. When I first built my big motor I ran it on a local dyno. I got some great results, 830ish HP. I put it in my car and couldn't get it to run the number. The carb was dead lean and I ran a good 2 or 3/10's off what it should have ran. I was in the 9.20-.40 range and should have been in the 9.oh's @ 2900 lbs. I had little help with carb tuning and the dyno day was a long day to only get 4 pulls.

Over the next winter I carted the motor up to Dwayne and we spent a day dialing the carb in. After his tuning, his results showed 750-775ish HP. We made a lot of pulls, I recall it was close to 20. I had added a little weight in the car by the time it got back to the track. The car ran exactly what it should have run with the power it had. It ran consistent 9.20's with a best of 9.16 with 100 lbs more in the car. I never touched a thing on the carb at the track. The next winter I ironed out a few deficiencies in my combo. We dyno'd again and picked up close to 100 HP. Now I really was in the 830-850ish HP range. Again, I put it in the car and ran exactly what it should have for the power it had. Consistent 9.oh's and a best of 8.94 @ 3000lbs

Track tuning you have changing conditions. If your chassis doesn't hook every time and show a change in ET form a tuning change, the chassis may need tuning too. If you spin your MPH numbers will be higher than if you dead hook. The DA could change 400 feet in a day if it's a few hours between runs. It could change more than that on different days. There is no substitute for good engine data. The whole combo needs to work together if you are chasing ET.

Butt dyno on the street does not work when you spin the tires in any gear.

Yep, the time slip is the best dyno. No two cars of the same RWHP level will ET/MPH the same.

Okay what would be a good type or style water pump to run and be able to keep from losing power

My Moroso has been good to me with factory housing but they also make a remote with the same pump.

The moroso is a drop in electric. It will be i get if need be to get to 9's

I got the NEW Moroso drop in black pump and it rocks and is more efficent and lighter than the old blue pump I ran for years...........