Before I pull the transmission out again Question ?

Hey guys I have a built race transmission in my car but it started leaking pretty bad from the front pump seal so I pulled it out and sent it to my friend for a check out and quick once over. He adjusted the clearances and fixed a leak on the valve body. Found the front pump bushing had slid forward and cut the pump gasket. Okay got the transmission back and it worked really good. Just noticed it kind of seemed to hesitate shifting into 2nd gear but it hit hard when it did. Drive the car around the neighborhood and it worked good. Went to the track yesterday backed it off the trailer and went to tech. Worked fine. Got ready to make a pass and nothing !!! Every gear is like a netural unless you rev it up and it bumps into gear but drops right out when you let off the loud pedal. I had no problem before this and yes it has plenty of fluid and the adjustment in the shifter is working. Any ideas before I pull this heavy thing back out ?? Thanks !!!

I have a question, what kind of transmission is this?

Regardless, i would get a pressure reading from the front pressure port.


Joe

something I'd look at quick is checking the fluid level in P and N.... if the level doesn't change, I'd be thinking the pump. you could pull a cooler line and have someone start it up in N and observe fluid flow. The "leak in the valve body" is kind of concerning though...

Thanks for the reply. The leak was the screws on the vb came loose and the pressure plunger was sticking out a little. The transmission itself is a 727 rollerized with aluminum front clutch hub with a ton of a/m race parts ..

not trying to hi-jackthis thread ,but i have a 727,you go like ten feet in 1st,then it acts like the trans brakes on,doesnt do it in 2nd,take it out of first,go back into first,still does it

Hey Guys I still need some advice. I pulled the transmission out and had the transmission man install a new A and A reverse manual valve body and check the transmission out again. The transmission looked fine inside and I reinstalled it. Still nothing unless I rev it up a little in forward gears and I really have to rev it in reverse while sitting on the jack stands. I called PTC and asked about the converter and they stated that a converter won't come and go ?? I am at a loss here and so darn tired of pulling this transmission out. Any ideas ?? Thanks

Also I unhooked the cooler lines and it was pumping a steady stream out in netural so I guess the pump is working .

I'm not sure you can, I don't think anything in the trans changes other than the valve body when going to rev/man, but can you put the old valve body back in and see what it does? If it works then you know it's the new valve body. You can also air check the servos with the valve body off.

Also flow of fluid might not equate to adequate pressure. Sorry didn't see the first string of posts.

I can't help with your issue but this guy can. Hutch gives out LOTS of free info everyday if you post up your questions.


http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Thanks I will try and contact him.

I hate to say this but your converter may be the problem, was there any noticeable debris or foreign broken parts in the pan this time?
If so maybe it is time to have the torque converter looked at
The last simple thing I can think of that could cause this problem is the shift linkage, I set mine by starting in neutral and adjust the cable end so it drops into the hole in the shift arm easily, no resistance, once I have it adjusted for neutral I then check it in all the other forwards gears, some shifter cables will not allow you enough slack in the cable in reverse to have the end slide in and out of the arm easily
Let us know what you find out please

Does the car try to go forward in neutral? Nevermind I just read your first post. Problem is probably in the pump.

Thanks guys , The pump was looked at twice and it checked out fine. Cab there was really very little in the pan and the filter was clean. No signs of something coming apart.

Good simple info right here. Do it and save time.
Doug

Okay how do I go about getting that reading ? Would it be the line coming off off the cooler ?

You can get pressure reading off of the servos on the passenger side of the tranny, remove the small pipe plug on top and get the proper pressure gauge, I don't remember which servo has the low pressure and which one has the higher pressure and take the readings from there

Thanks Cab , What type of pressure gauge do I need ?

Call your tranny guy or use that link to find what the readings should be
I think the front servo in neutral or in gear, CRS should be above 140 lbs and I think the other readings are lower than 100 lbs, but I'm not sure
Maybe the different valve body have different readings

Middle plug on the passenger side is line pressure. Should have pressure in all forward gears. Front plug is front servo and should only have pressure in third gear on both manual and auto valve bodies. Rear plug is for manual low and reverse. Standard line pressures are around 55 at idle and go up to approx. 85-90 lbs. with the kick down lever all the way back. Manual shift valve bodies usually have around 90 and up at idle for line. That should get you started on your tests.

So I can fab up a standard oil pressure gauge to check these ? Thanks..

I would use a gauge with 300 lbs. capacity. Adapt the line to fit the case.
In your situation notonly are you looking for pressure in each gear but how it responds when you lose gears. If it ran for a while after the rebuild you likely have a cut seal or a broken metal seal. Check pressures in each gear and report your findings if you need help deciphering them.

What year trans is this.

I had my local hydraulic shop make up my line and its long enough to reach in my car because I work by myself. VERY nice tool to have laying around.

I thank you for the replies . I am at a darn loss here for sure. I will see what I can do about getting a gauge and line to check the pressure. This has been a couple of years of throwing money at the car and still not making many passes..

Man I know the feeling!I got a 2' high psi hose made and got a cheep gauge to read 250 psi for about 40$

Some RMVB's won't supply line pressure to the accumulator (middle) test port, in that case you'll have to check the pressure at the front or rear port. Rear in Reverse and front in 3rd.

Thanks !!!!

Okay guys just an update on my junk. I checked the pressure in the front servo in high gear and it was around 145lbs. So I guess the pump is working. I will be pulling the transmission back out and sending my converter to Shawn at Dynamic Converters in De. I hope he finds out what the heck happened. Thanks again for all your help..

I hope all goes well. I pulled my transmission 6 times by myself this year on the floor fighting issues so I know how you feel. The good part of the story is I can now do my own transmissions and not have to count on others. I didn't enjoy pulling transmissions 40 years ago and I like it even less now at 61 years old. Good-luck.

Brother I know how you feel , 61 here too and feel like a darn turtle on his back trying to get up and down. Cold concrete hurts them joints too.

I would place the gauge on the rear servo port and place the trans in manual low. You said it engages then falls out of gear when you tip out of the throttle. This is when you should be monitoring tha gauge - when it falls out of gear. I doubt you will find anything wrong with the converter based on your opening post.

Assuming you have a rear band apply valve body. You won't know until you try it.

I don't have a low band apply valve body and the pressure come up on the front servo as soon as I shifted it into high. The wheels won't turning 1st 2nd or 3rd gear. What other ports should I check ??

do the wheels turn in reverse?

No not unless I really rev it up. That is the only way I can get the wheels to turn at all. Forward or reverse just a little harder in reverse.

I would take it back to your friend and have him pull it down.

I did and he checked it out again and installed the new valve body for me. He swears it checks out good and has done many many transmissions before

Does this unit have a roller low reverse drum?

Did he air check it after he was done???

Could be a missing hard part in the gear train. Don't ask how I know.
Doug

1. no trash in pan
2. fluid not burnt
3. have pressure in high gear at idle
4. only moves when revved up in all gears.

= converter is broken

Joe

one more question, do you have a stock dipstick or a "custom" dipstick?


Joe

Fluid is in perfect condition , Have pressure in high gear and only moves when revved up.
I hope you are right because I am so damn tired of pulling this thing out. LOL Sending Converter to Dynamic Converters Monday !!! Fingers crossed it don't cost me an arm and a leg.. I am broke..

The dipstick is a locking type for NHRA . But it was wayyyyy overful of fluid.,

If you installed the normal amount of fluid as usual and now you show too much on the stick then the converter is not full. The torque converter conteol valve fills the converter but you said you installed another valve body. And you said you had good cooler flow earlier in your post.

If you pull the trans check the converter. It's probably partially full - will give you exactly the condition you complain of.

Something's being missed, things are not adding up.

I did put way more than the amount of fluid the transmission calls for and it was way overfull. When I pulled the transmission out and turned the converter over a lot of fluid came out. Don't know how much the converter holds but it had a lot of fluid in it.

Again, rollerized low reverse drum?

I am sorry for not answering eariler , but yes rollerized alum drum..

Thanks for clarifying. Have your transmission tech, check for the seals on the rollerized componets. The leakage causes the symptoms you are describing.

Thank you for your reply but wouldn't that have been an issue as soon as I tried to move the car ? I had put about 5 or better miles on it and it was working fine and when I went to make a pass it would move at all until I revved it up.Just all of a sudden nothing ??

There is an area of the output shaft, that needs to be champfered, or the seal lip gets damaged. I suppose it's possible that cold atf is viscous enough to slow the leak. Since the trans is out, it's free to look. Hope you get it figured out!

I sure will check it out again to make sure !!! Thanks , this thing is driving me crazy. LOL

If you lived nearby I would be over there to at least give you moral support. And maybe hold the light for you. LOL. Been there done that and have pictures to prove it, just as a reminder of how much I love racing.

Thank you my brother , us old dudes know how bad crawling under a car for years and years can feel. LOL. It's funny though , for all the crap these cars give us I have never thought of giving up. Just suck it up and hopefully get another pass or two..

Most roller supports don't have seals and leakage at the lube system wouldn't account for the normal line pressure tested at the front servo.

ATI

Support seal

Note the word "most". Always exceptions.

I have only installed seal included output shaft supports for customers using roller low reverse drums, hence, I can't comment on other types of designs. A racer friend called me, telling me that he had to apply more than usual throttle, to get the car to creep forward. I wasn't involved with the build, so we went through the flow chart. Knowing he is anal, I started wondering what we missing. The answer was unsealed torringtons. Once corrected, the trans was fine. Since I wasn't there, I have no idea what test pressures were, or weren't showing at the servos.

Another 400.00 shot in the butt over a converter that checked out fine. The guy at Dynamic said to check the reaction shaft behind the pump to see if the plugs came out ???? What the heck is that ? Help !!!

There are balls pressed in the reaction shaft support housing to seal the oil galleys. I would assume they are describing these. I would just swap entire reaction shaft,support assembly if that was suspect.

The "plugs" are ball bearings driven into the support and staked in place; never seen one come out. However, if a lockup support was installed in a non-lockup trans............

How much pressure? How about in gear? I'm assuming the converter is turning the input shaft (and it should since it checked out). If there is sufficient pressure either reverse or at least one forward gear should function. I doubt if both servos and both clutch pistons are all leaking enough for none of them to function. The valve body and converter should be out of the equation so lets focus on whats left. There could be a massive internal leak. The only time I've seen that was when the reaction support was loose against the front pump. Maybe it's tight but fits poorly? maybe a mismatch of parts? Again that should show in a pressure check. Are the rear clutch hub splines stripped on the input? Or is the hub cracked? Does the valve body set flush on the case? There isn't a accumulator blocker rod holding the accumulator piston just high enough to hold the VB away from the case slightly? My opinion is if it has good pressure there is a hard part failure. If the pressure is low you may have to do individual air checks while dissembled to find the leak.
Doug

Hey thanks again everybody. I checked the front servo in high gear before I pulled the transmission out and it had a touch over 140 lbs on it. The converter said that was plenty. I just pulled the transmission back apart and all the balls are in the support. This darn thing did this to me all of a sudden. Was moving and shifting fine and then nothing ? I did notice after getting it back from the transmission gut the first time that it seemed to hold onto 2nd gear a little after I shifted into 2nd. All gears worked fine though.

If it has 140lbs it has to have a hard part failure. How does the input shaft feel when slid into the converter by itself? Disassemble the rear clutch and inspect where the shaft fits the clutch hub, make sure it didn't crack in the center. I'd take a good look at the back half as well. planets, sun shell, etc.
Doug

I pulled it apart but didn't check the clutch packs. The planets seem to be fine. I will check the input shaft. I will try and upload a couple of pictures of my support after I unbolted it .

Does this look okay, I know a little fuzzy but how about the wear ?

Take better pictures - can't tell how bad the support face is where the rotors ride. Also there are 4 balls pressed in to the perimeter of the support. They are visible in Kunkels picture. Your bottom image shows one for reference - it's at 11 o'clock - there should be 4 total. Plus maybe it's the picture but the end of the reaction shaft seems pretty shiny - it shouldn't be.

I will try and take some more. How about the cracks in the surface ?? Are they supposed to look like that ?

The two "cracks" should be small "V" cuts if you look closely. They are there by design. Those appear in your image at 2 and 8 o'clock.

Hey guy's still working on this darn thing.
Could the pump still be faulty if it had 140lbs of line pressure on the high gear servo ? The fluid was coming out of the cooler lines pretty good also. I am running out of options with this thing. I know it is not the valve body or converter now. I have pulled it apart quite a few times and no mechanical damages to any of the hard parts.

Have you checked to see if the cooler is plugged?

Yes , I have even bypassed the cooler to make sure.. I did notice that my converter had very little fluid in it the past couple of times I pulled it out..

I ran into a similar issue with my 727 recently. The seal rings on the input shaft were blown out and the transmission acted as if it was bound up. Car didn’t want to go into reverse and with throttle application it would try to move by would just creep. Did the same in forward gears but not as bad. I bought the trans complete from a very reputable torqueflite specialist and when it was put together it had a lock up input shaft in it. The input shaft diameter was smaller in the seal area then the stator and kept blowing the seal out. Both pieces were replaced by a different shop after he found the issue and transmission is Golden now. I too noticed a small amount of fluid in the converter and was told the seal leakage from being blown was directing the converter charge elsewhere in the trans. Guy told me that the blown seals was causing the bands to be constantly applied essentially binding up the transmission.

Can't seem to get a consistent answer from you - previously you mentioned when you pulled the converter it had plenty of fluid. Now you say it had little fluid the last "few times pulled". Which one is it ?

A partially filled converter will get you EXACTLY the issue you have. You did not reply as to if you checked to see if the perimeter balls were in place on the support. You can have normal line pressures but if the converter circuit is open you will get a slipping feeling. One of the balls on the perimeter is for the converter charge circuit.

Also you say you have good cooler flow - but have you measured it? With a normal 3/8" line disconnected at the return - rear fitting at the trans you should get at least a quart of fluid at idle in about 10-12 seconds.

I appreciate all replies and , yes the converter seemed like it had plenty of fluid in it to begin with but since I started checking it it seems really low on fluid. The perimeter balls are in the right location and not missing. I tried the cooler flow it it was pumping really good. Just a couple of seconds started filling my drain pan very well.

Sprayed 416 I will check the seal rings too. Thanks !!

I know from watching a kid pull a 727 out of a B van about 5 times that if you put a lock up reaction support in a non lock up transmission the converter will not fill.

Thanks

Mentioned 17 posts up - see Kunkels image. Hopefully the op checked for it - 👀

Thanks but it was checked out and was running and moving just fine for a few miles and then nothing.. That is the same support that has been with the transmission for a long time. None of the balls were missing . Thanks

I have a good friend that said he would sell me his John Cope built transmission. I may be selling all of the parts out of this one if I can't find the darn problem.

That’s exactly what my transmission did with the blown input shaft seals. Drove car and put 10 miles or so the first time and about 15-20 the second time it happened. Was fine and then jumped in it the next day to go for a cruise and nothing.

I looked at the shaft seals and they seem fine. could you see the damage to yours ?

have you checked the case it self for cracks at the valve body ports? could be causing an internal leak across two ports.

I have looked at it some but not really inspected. I will do that tomorrow.

Yeah, the first go around one of the seals was gone completely. Second time the seal was Teflon, and was flattened and distorted. And as far as your friend with the Cope transmission, he’s the original builder of mine....

just throwing this out there but the small thrust washer on the output shaft somehow didn't make it on one of my builds and it acted a lot like what you are describing.

Are you talking about the two teflon seals on the pump or the steel seals on the input shaft ?

The bronze thrust washer on the end of the output shaft ? Yes mine is there but thanks..

The seals were on the input shaft, there’s 2 of them. The replacement seals were Teflon on my trans. They are in the pump area so I would say that they are the pump seals. Honestly, I don’t know anything about transmissions, just sharing what I was told to be wrong with mine as it sounds as you are having the same issue. But yeah, the seals were Teflon on the input shaft and was told when taken apart by original builder that he must of accidentally damaged the seal when installing the pump.

Thanks for the info. I know just enough about transmissions to understand how they are supposed to work and mine don't LOL

Update to anybody still reading this long story. Last ditch effort went ahead bought a new reaction support and oil pump for this thing. I also had A&A send me some new seal rings too. They should be here tomorrow. The case is not cracked but we did find the front alum drum with some groves in it from the seals. I was told that if anything it would cause a little problem shifting into high gear but wouldn't cause all my problems. Hopefully the reaction support and oil pump will fix this darn thing.

If it fixes it take a good clear picture of the inside of the reaction shaft - the "tube" that's pressed in to the reaction shaft support. There are holes inside - take a few good pictures showing these holes and make sure you show the outside of the support too.

Will do !!

Well the new pump did not fix it. I replace the complete pump asy and front sealing rings. No difference at all. I did check line pressure and found maybe 20 lbs of pressure in 1st gear , around 90 lbs in second and around 130 in high gear. I checked the rear servo and in reverse it had around 150. I turned the pressure up on the valve body but no change in my line pressure. Any ideas ?? The car will move if I rev it up but not good. " yes Mark I am still screwing with it " LOL

Any update on this one?
I have a TF that acted the same way the last time it was in a car & has not been fixed.

The question I'd be asking is why is there only 20 psi in 1st. The only component applied in 1st is the rear clutch. Why does the pressure rise in all the other gear selections? The pump must supply even more volume to additional components that are applied in every other gear other than 1st. If there was an internal leak beyond the valve body 2nd and 3rd pressures should be even lower than 1st. Think on that.
Doug

What tap did you check to get 20 in 1st, 90 in 2nd and 130 in 3rd. Be specific and accurate.

I am no trans guy,but I had a similar problem and it was the diverter valve that puts fluid to the converter

Hey guys it's been a little while since I have been on here. Sorry for not replying . I figured out how to fix it. LOL
I bought a pretty new CRT Pro Race transmission from a good friend of mine. Works like a champ now.
On a serious note I never did figure out why the transmission just stopped pulling. Merry Christmas. !!!

You know you can't stop now, way to much effort and work invested into fixing it, finish the job now!
It's mechanical, not magic

When you run into an issue like this as we get older it takes the fun right out of the sport. Working on the floor by yourself is even harder yet. I updated to an ATI case for my powerglide and started building my own transmissions and that fixed mine. You made the right decision and now can get back to enjoying the sport instead of looking at the bottom of your car. I hope all goes well for you in 2018. Have FUN.

I do hate something that completely whips my azz. LOL But sometimes you really have to throw up the white flag. That transmission was haunted. LOL Merry Christmas everybody !!!

i will bet their are a number of trans guys that would love to have your 727 on their bench,to give it a try and solve.

merry christmas

Find yourself a known good case and transfer all the internals - at your leisure. If it fixes it then you know the case is an issue. If it doesn't then something internal that you brought from the infected unit.


If it doesn't fix it - and If you have any desire to find out what's going on -
Take a known good pump, front and rear clutch assembly and install in this case.


And so on.

That's what I finally did with my 727 that would back out of the shop in neutral. It was out three times and had three local transmission guys look at it, no one found anything. As a last resort I put everything in a different case, problem solved. I'm lucky this way.

Would you like to have a spare trans.? If so send that one in to a good shop, maybe CRT,ATI or your best choice, and have them go through yours and make sure they know what problems it has now
Good luck

I pulled the known good parts out of the transmission and sold them to a transmission guy in Il . He got the parts in and said it should have worked ?
I still have the case and a few parts but I was glad to see that darn thing go away.
Side note , I know my converter is good now. Almost 500.00 later to get checked out new bearings installed and welded back together.

I don't think I've ever let anything whip me. I've had transmissions that would burn up a clutch pack out of the blue for seemingly no reason, engines that refused to have issues corrected, even after having "experts" do their magic, brakes that refused to work, you name it. If it turned out to be unfixable, a casting flaw, a design mistake, a machining error, I may have had to scrap something, but I knew why. PITA and frustrating at times? Yes, but I couldn't let it beat me and I always learned something, sometimes many things in the process. It's never wasted effort. Knowing what doesn't work is sometimes more important than knowing what does.

I would have liked to get my hands in that transmission.

I agree. Had a 904 that burned up the kick down band & rear clutch twice. Got rid of the turboaction v/b & bought a transact v/b. Trans worked flawlessly for yrs.

I agree 100% , I never let crap kick my butt , this one dove too darn deep in my wallet to continue though. I spent a ton of money on it and a lot of labor and still nothing. It still eats at me not knowing but my car moves again. Yea !!!!

It took me 5-6 tries to get to the bottom of my powerglide issues this year and a professional builder spotted the issue being the case. Tired a new case and it cracked on its 7th pass in a spot that they are known to crack. I updated to an ATI case and all is well. Like I said before as you age it gets harder. Harder to get something done and harder for it to beat you. It’s one thing to pull a transmission by yourself on a lift and another if you are working on the ground. In my eyes you did the right thing and can now move on. For some of us our track days are dwindling away so we gotta make hay while the sun shines.

The wife and I were just talking about that a while ago. Time waits for no man.

had the same issues with a 904 with a TA transbrake VB,,,untill I talked to Rick Allison from A@A and he sold me a new line pressure regulator spring and gave me the length dimention to install it at and all my troubles went away, and the TA worked perfect from that day on.

I talked with everybody at A&A so much they didn't want to answer the phone anymore . LOL

I know this is not the place to ask but my buddy that sold me the CRT Transmission also included the 9.5"PTC Converter that only has about 3 hours of time on it. Not Sure of stall though. What should I ask for it to help recoop some of my money ?