Rear main seal leak 8^(

Despite my best effort at a leak-free rear main seal installation (Viton seal, Mancini billet holder w/ the dual o-ring side seals [and is a square-shaped rubber strip still considering an "o" ring?], Hylomar behind the seals), the pig still leaked on the dyno.

I freakin' hate leaks.

Suggestions for the next attempt?
- Rope seal? (I have one on order)
- One-piece seal?
- 2-piece Viton like before, but re-orienting it differently? (I had the ends offset slightly)

FWIW, it's got an Eagle crank with the knurled seal area (and W-T-F would they DO that?).

I'm all ears.

EDIT: I'll save my rant for the oil pan leaking after doing "all the right things with all the right stuff" until I've verified that it's NOT wet because of the rear main seal or the fuel-pump block-off plate leaks I know about already.

The knurled area is probably a carry over from the days of the rope seals (Before the Viton/rubber 2 piece seals we have now). And I have No clue what the knurled section does to stop oil leaks with a rope seal.

we recently had a 383 that just about drove us crazy--ordered a new rope from Best gasket--followed directions--stopped the problem but you can't do it in the car she really needs to come apart
FWIW I have way better luck with stock type seal holders--we put it on block with no crank--line it up perfectly--then mark it so we can duplicate that when we put it together--that has helped a lot--we just use RTV on the sides I hate those blue rubbers--even if you get good at Ramming them in they still push on retainer and may not allow it to line up correctly--common sense
Have never seen any advantage to offsetting--makes sense that it will aid line up of two halves but you run the risk of getting some RTV on the actual seal which is a sure leak IMO
Bottom line if crank seal area is OK and OD has not been reduced by over polishing etc--it is still a Crapshoot these days--can't say if it is the seals we get or what but I am getting to the point of hating big blocks for that reason
we went for over 30 years never ever had one leak and many were assembled after too many cool ones back in those days--now...it is just a sick feeling every time I do one because no matter what you do or whose directions you follow it can bite even the most seasoned Mopar guy
I have seen all kinds of issues with the billet holders--IMO they are $$ tossed away
Best Gasket rope seal comes with template to cut so .015 sticks up from block and same for cap--they say lube with red assem lube--it worked and was not that hard to turn so........

I honestly have had WAY better luck with the stock retainers and just a good seal with sealer on the sides. I have used the SuperFormance one on the last couple and no leaks...

I have probably 5 billet ones we have tried, Mopar, Mancini etc etc never had great luck

the billet holder is usually the source of problem - it a 50-50 bet it will leak - you can try the Monte method - it usually works. I always use just grey silicone on the side seals seams to work.

I used the rubber sides with a rope seal and it was a pita to put together, and it leaks. Going to use a regular seal and just fill the sides with RTV. It seems cheesy but it seems like that is the best method. I think the key is to have the retainer apply even pressure to a seal that is centered around the crank, tighten the retainer down, and THEN seal the sides. I think those rubber sides cause issues with keeping the retainer centered around the crank. The tolerance on the sides of the block skirts were probably not designed to center the retainer on the crank, since the original method used the fiber boards that you tapped in after. Just my theory, we'll see how I make out when I take mine apart in a few weeks. I HATE leaks too, especially on a fresh engine...

Brad,

this is from a thread a few weeks ago.




You can rotate the seal around the clock till your purple. That most certainly helps but it does not assure the 2 halfs are allighned. When the 2 halfs are out of alighnment the edge of the seal can actually grab oil and channel it to the outer shell of the seal retainer and drip, drip, drip and drip. When you rotate the seal to 6:00/12:00 you are solely relying on the upper and lower seals to alighn themselves as you lower the retainer into the seal register in the block. You have NO WAY of knowing if there is ANY torsional twist where the upper and lower seals meet because you cannot see them.

How could this happen argue

If you place the seal retainer in the block with just the retainer bolts you will see there is play in that retainer forward and back. If the seal retainer is installed and is ever so slightly cocked, guess what? Drip, drip, drip, drip. This was not a concern coming out of Trenton engine assembly back in the day because Chrysler used rope seals. It did not matter if the upper and lower halfs were aligned.

Since none of us install rope seals it is of the upmost importance the the upper and lower lips of the seals are aligned with each other because that lip on the seal is way way way wayyyyy thinner than a rope seal.

How do you do this??????

With the crank out of the block place the upper half of the seal in the block and the lower in the seal retainer.

Place the seal retainer into the block and tighten the retainer bolts to 5 ft pounds.

Look at where the lips of the seals are and tap the seal retainer housing till the seal lips on both sides are aligned.

* On most aftermarket seal retainers material will have to be removed off the seal retainer in order to achieve perfect alignenment. This is due to interference with the #5 main studs


Tighten the seal retainer to spec and recheck alignment.

Take a straightedge and scribe a line across the bottom of the seal retainer and pan rails of the block.

Remove seal retainer

You now know the position the seal retainer needs to be in by aligning your scribe marks as you preform the final install of the rear main seal. Once you know where the seal retainer needs to be you can clock the seal to your hearts desire.


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I had a rear main seal leak on my 508 with an Ohio Crank when I first put it together. The 3rd time around I went with a Fast Fish one piece seal and ultra black in place of the side seals. Dry as a bone after that.

Interesting -- even if sometimes contradictory -- info being posted.

I should also ask... which approach(es) is viable without having to remove the crank?

I do it with the seal in the block and holder--line those lips up and mark as described by others here--that has been our best luck deal
I do not use billet holders anymore--

I'm putting a stock stroke 440 motor together today, I used a rear main seal kit from SCE and installed the seals like stock, no rotation I do put a thin stripe of adhesive silicone sealer on the edge of the lip on the seals that goes into the stock seal holder and block, I also use a real thin layer on the ends of the seals and a real thin layer on the seal holder bottom that is tighten onto the block and then once it is tighten into place I use a thin blade screw driver to seal the bottom edge of the seal holder to the block and fill both sides of the seal holder to the block to ensure no leaks
Works good, last a long time
No leaks in a long time since I started doing it this way

Crikey! Still sounds like a total crap-shoot on whether it'll leak or not.

I've used the Best gasket rope seal twice now with good results. I like the looks of the Fast Fish but never tried it.

I checked out their web site, looks like the way to go. Wonder how hard it would b to install with the crank in the block?

Brad the 470 with your victor heads had a bad leak , had to pull motor and replace seal. A 464 I built this summer has a minor leak also. It is very frustrating. Like mentioned earlier I have been building 383/440 for over 30 years, and the last 5 motors have had leak issues. give me a call I have identified some potential issues with the billet retainers I use, also the seals have some issues. I have the 470 going on the run stand right now as the test for all these tweaks so jury is still out as to if this will be successful.

Make sure the retainer isn't hitting against any main studs or nuts like mine was. Makes for a helluva leak.

There is now way to know if the upper and lower half’s of the seal are aligned unless the crank comes out. You have to weigh out the pain of drip drip drip all over the driveway and garage floor for the next few years vs pulling the crank and aligning the seal. Your other option is to spend big bucks on that seal in this thread that is a one piece. YUCK!

Think about what is going on around the rear main seal and seal holder, there is no oil pressure (crankcase pressure only) trying to force the oil out of the seal, only splash oil, correct?
That being the case where is the oil leaking from, the seal, the oil pan gasket, the side seals or exactly what
To fix it you have to know where it is leaking from first, correct
If the seal is working like designed then the oil is coming from some where else

I've heard that the typical billet retainer's design may not allow for adequate drainage away from the seal. The one that Best Machine used to sell (I don't believe they have them now) was supposed to have been machined to reduce this problem, but I can't find any pics to see what they did.

I'm not adverse to modifying mine... just need to see an example of what works.

Hmmm... so what you're saying is:
1. Remove timing chain cover
2. Remove timing chain assembly
3. Remove caps from 8 rods
4. Remove 5 main caps, which includes 3 cross-bolted caps that are a big PITA to get to come out cuz they fit tightly in the block
5. Remove seal retainer
6. Remove crankshaft
7. Replace seal
8. Reassemble everything listed above

OR:
1. Purchase an extremely expensive (overpriced?) 1-piece seal
2. Remove seal retainer
3. Replace seal
4. Install seal retainer

IF people are having good results using the 1-piece seal, the cost is far less of a factor than the level of effort to pull the crank.

This dude wins the Internet for today^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well done and said sir. I went to never having leaks in about 20 years of building them to 1 in 4 or about 25% chance of a goddamn leaker. Im also starting to hate building bigblocks for this reason. Which sucks because I really love big blocks. J.Rob

Brad if you found my thread you would see why I was almost suicidal.

If that one piece seal works then it is NOT overpriced.

The billet retainers are complete junk and are overpriced because they don't address the issue which is alignment.

Clock the seals at 12 and 6 o'clock, hog out retainer bolt holes to allow the retainer to float and index on the seal. Bolt down the retainer. Get a new sealant nozzle and cut tip very small--Jam tube tip in retainer side hole and squeeze. It will fill. J.Rob

Just add me to the list of guys who went from never having one leak a drop in around 20 years(and not doing anything special to get those results), to now having to pray to the dry seal Gods and hoping I'm heard.

I agree - I used to be able to change a rear main seal & put new bearings in while under the car and never have it leak - now its like you have to assemble it like your building something for NASA!

I have at least one, possibly two, OEM seal retainers. The one I know for sure I have had the cap trimmed a bit to improve the fit (per Muscle Motors' old recommendation). That's the one I removed from my last build. I used a 2-piece Viton seal, the orange side seals (which did NOT want to slide in worth a bleep), and plenty of sealant. And to be honest, I can't recall if that one leaked or not. If it did, that was the least of my worries when I yanked the engine back out.

Then I saw the the Indy billet retainers w/ the o-ring side seals and bought one. Before I ever tried it, I saw posts from people saying those weren't working well. Still got that one in the box. Crap.

Then I saw the Mancini billet retainer, which appeared to be an improved version of the ICH part. And, some folks on here like Andy said they'd had good results with them. I bought one for the RB 452 build we just dynoed, and a 2nd one for the backup RB 451 short block I've been collecting parts for. I remember comparing the ICH w/ the Mancini retainers and thinking "something" about the ICH looked "wrong" in comparison (even took some pictures that are around somewhere).

Now I hear that the Mancini retainers aren't working as advertised... and all I know right at the moment is that I used one w/ this build and it's leaking. Crap, part deux.

I haven't made ANY decisions on what approach I'll take when I pull off the pan to see what's going on. But it's pretty obvious I find the idea of having to pull the crank back out to be on the verge of unacceptable.

So... I'll keep reading people's feedback & suggestions (and will dig up Jesse's suicidal rant from his experience) and go from there. And I'll post the results -- good or bad -- when the engine's back in the car and running again. Thanks - Brad

I've actually had decent results with both the Indy retainer(and there have been a few variations of it), and the Mancini retainer.

I had one of the Indy ones leak while I was priming the motor(yeh, I was thrilled with that).

I ended up grinding some channels in it where it was next to the main cap, to give the oil that collects around the seal a place to go.
I also had a normal black seal in it at first, then swapped to the orange seal.

In that instance......those changes worked.

Have any of you guys experienced a rear main leak after changing to full synthetic oil ? I have had this happen in a low mileage 351 Ford engine. I switched back to conventional oil and the leak has all but completely stopped !
I had a perfect record on my BBM rear seals using the stock retainer and sealing the sides with silicone. MY Hemi has been sitting for two years now, and when I recently started it for some testing it looks like the main is leaking! I have to investigate further to see for sure. It had never leaked before, and I have switched oil weight and brands.
Mark

Yep;

I guess I would buy the 79 dollar seal as well. This leaking stuff drives me nuts because these engines we build don’t leak when the cheap seals with stock retainers are used if the seals are aligned properly.

Just went through this myself.. I "had" a 440 source retainer on my 520 stroker. It leaked bad. I tried all the suggestions on here. Indexed seal halves in different spots, rtv in all the right places, main stud clearance, cut a oil drain path in the retainer. Still leaked. I took that thing off and tossed it in my scrap pile. I pulled out an old crusty factory 400 retainer, cleaned it up put it in and no leaks. I called Jim Hale up and he told me he never had any luck with those billet pieces..

I'm glad to hear that Jim Hale is still with us, THANKS for the info

Yeah no problem. I have to say he is a good guy. He has always been more than willing to help me out. And it's always been fun for me to visit and check out his projects. I look up to him and it's to bad these guys won't be around for ever..

I have the Mancini retainer and zero drips

I just did a friends 383 stroker this past summer on my back with the engine in the car

I clock the black fel pro seals at 12 and 6 around the crank and then I install the Mancini retainer dry using the alignment studs that where supplied then I mark the block and retainer and see how everything looks

Leave the alignment studs in place and pull the retainer back off

Then install the side o rings and black rtv down the sides in between the o rings and a dap on each top corner of retainer

Slide the retainer back over the alignment studs , clean up the excess black rtv

Pull the alignment studs out , install the factory bolts and torque them down making sure your previous marks line up still on retainer and block

Let dry 24 hours

If it still has a small leak, it is still leaking. Synthetic oil just has higher capillary action and will find and display leaks to a higher extent. It will not cause leaks. You still need to fix the leak.

Hughes engine has there own instructions

http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/prod...onsJune2006.pdf

Put my 432 together

I mocked up both the Mancini Retainer and Factory Retainer

Just slid them both over the alignment studs for reference to see where I was at with alignment of the seals at parting line

First the slop in the factory retainer , or movement back and forth over the studs was way way way worse with the factory piece then with the Mancini piece

Anyways both retainers in short needed to bee pushed towards the inside of block for proper alignment

Got everything marked up top

nice pics!thx.

Ok I know this is NOT the way we wish it would go, but if it is a slow leak and you can come to terms with this "fix" it is something to consider. I made a sheet metal cover that bolts to the inspection plate holes on the bottom of the bell housing. Goes up about an inch upwards and turns 90 degs runs back along the bottom of the bell housing 3 inches. It holds a pig mat folded over about 3/4 inch thick with the bolts going through the pig mat. Change it once a season. Not ideal but after chasing your tail for weeks,it starts to look pretty attractive.

Finally !!!!!!!

I have never had a rear main seal leak when I have aligned the seal retainer with the crank out. It's nice to see someone else does it this way as well..

I did the same thing!!!wow how funny.

It's one of those embarrasing "fixes" I'm ashamed to admit to. Just like clearancing cam bearings with an old slotted cam, but if it works.

Better than leaking on the track!

Seems to me after reading this that we are using the wrong seals.
If we can buy the correct bearings, rings, gaskets and other parts, why can't we get the correct seals.
Just can't see a mechanic or dealership putting up with this crap back in the day.
Never had a problem with the rope seal and white side seals as the engines were designed for.

believe it or not, after the seals started to leak "back in the day", it was just like some guys say about harleys : "they are just marking their territory".