THE DEBATE OF NHRA PRO STOCK'S FUTURE CONTINUES

http://competitionplus.com/drag-racing/news/the-debate-of-nhra-pro-stocks-future-continues

I just read that. Here's the deal. NHRA is trying to not repeat with Pro Stock what it did to Pro Stock Truck and end up with a law suit. They are letting it die on the vine so when they kill it they can say the class just lost interest.


As I said when they went to EFI and no hood scoops it was over. EFI isn't the savior of the world. Plus, the performance just isn't there. Warren Johnson was dead wrong on his theory removing the hood scoop, or the big stupid mail box as he called it was worth 2 MPH. It wasn't.

You can save the class easily. Without much cost. It's just that is not what NHRA wants.

For those who think Pro Mod is the answer...it's not. Give them a 24 race schedule npand in 2 seasons it will be jus like PS.

Want to fix the class?

No more 4 door conversion cars. EVER. If you can't make a 2 door then don't run Pro Stock. That would mean mustangs and Challengers would be legal. Drop the body templates. It's a run what you bring body.

500 CID max. 5 forward gears max. 2 carbs or EFI who cares? Whatever intake you can get to work. Hood scoop or no hood scoop. It's up to the team.

Racing gasoline. Eliminate the RPM limit.

Increase the payout by trimming the dead wood out of the NHRA staff. The bloated parasites have had enough time to feast. Cut the staff and up the payouts.

Fixed. Done and done. Of course, it would require someone with balls to do it. The neutered sissies running NHRA are more worried about their pensions than they are keeping NHRA viable.

I kind of agree to some degree with Johnny Gray's assessment...... Pro stock out spent itself.

The class is too expensive to run vs what it pays and the amount of air time it gets(to attract sponsors).

It's not a viable business model.

NHRA has out spent it's self. That's why there are low car counts. It cost a ton of money to run a pro car in the NHRA. A corporate sponsor is a must.

The way I read the news from Light was he don't care about brand and I have news for him, without brand (Ford, Mopar, Chevy) the interest will not be there. I don't think they compete on the speed factor, NITRO is king there, but brand loyalty is huge so why not bring it back?

Who want's to watch carbon fiber replica's? I say steel bodies, roof, quarters, ect..., exact front ends and then work on engine packages, once again BRAND. Mopar runs Mopar ect...

I think the interest will come right back.

Back to win on Sunday sell on Monday.

Replace pro stock with pro street, when a national event comes to town televise the pro street cars of that area, oh dang, its been done and people come, race and watch.

Maybe if all these old guys with yellow teeth were not working for a paycheck off the backs of others things would be different.

Never a shortage of cars or money or people at our weekly street races in the sticks and the racers are the ones who take the money home... hard to find fault in that.

I see guys her post pics of a 1k check, thats great but a tough pill to swallow on some levels when weekly the top guy here takes home min. 2-4k cash.

Even the hole in the wall outlaw tracks prosper weekly when people who do little are not trying to make a living off of it.

Well IMO the entire sport is dying a slow death. The problem as I see it is how do you get the next generation involved? Sure the Jr programs help but those are already racing families to begin with. They need to find a way to get kids who are NOT already in racing families involved too. Even in racing families I think participation of the next group is at an all time low..

Well IMO the entire sport is dying a slow death. The problem as I see it is how do you get the next generation involved?

Al I know your big into it and I have alot of respect for you and the guys that spend big money to do so but the sport is not dying, just the professional side of it, ive never seen street racing hotter then it is today.

Yes it is a subset of the "sport".

The cars being sold off the dealer lot today are not being bought by 70 year old grandmas.

By definition sport is....an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment

Your version and the NHRA has the big $$$$$$ factor of the Professional sports label and there is where the problem lays... the money factor.

Make it cheaper to run, put more money in the pockets of the racers and it would flourish.

"Increase the payout by trimming the dead wood out of the NHRA staff."

NHRA has been cutting staff. They've been reducing the tech department. Getting rid of senior people who know and care about Stock and Super Stock. People who enforce the rules and ensure the integrity of those classes. At the same time, they're adding marketing, broadcast, PR, social media, and sales staff. It's becoming more about an entertainment product they can sell and less about racing.

Pro Stock is a great class with a lot of history, but it needs help. I don't know the answers. Perhaps they should ask the teams and racers for their opinion instead of having a bunch of stuffed suits and marketing "experts" try to micro manage the whole deal and dictate what the specs will be.

Brand fills the stands and gives purpose to the whole shebang.

People need a beacon to attach themselves to and take that leap of faith at the line and sigh at the stripe.
That beacon is brand.
Like said, steel bodies, brand motors, midnight tinkering just like the boys did at the Woodward garage and in Dearborn.

Mopar, GM, Ford, .......... even off shore brands if they have a two door sedan and drive train to command a stand. Bring it as they say, since this is a global market and mind set. If not, stay put and enjoy the scenery.
In other words, a movie is only as good as the audiences emotional investment in the central characters. The central characters have to present themselves in all their strengths and weaknesses. That's what makes them identifiable to the viewer. Plot, special effects and feast is boring with out the carriers of the voice.

I came up thru the Jr program right when it first came out. Most of the kids I raced against either their parent or grandparents raced and that's the reason they got into the sport. Maybe half the those kids moved up into big cars for a few years, but very few still race anymore due to having kids, mortgages, etc. The sport def isn't cheap. The kids that run in the Jr program at my local track very few of their parents ever raced and when most age out, they don't continue on. Most seem to think that if you raced a 7.90 Jr for years you NEED a 7 sec 1/4 mile dragster to run in super and most aren't satisfied with a 11-12 sec door car and don't race again...

Have the racers ever bucked up to the NHRA and said we want this, we want that or were done, your free ride is over?

If its all about the racing, whats the difference of going to a "Pretty" track vs a track with a gate, a nice field and two safe lanes?

If the NHRA died today, 99% of the people who race in this country would still race in one fashion or another. So why do people let them control so much of it.

I wont continue to beat this horse here, but look at nascrap... times are hard for them as well as they have strayed away from where the started for the dollar bill, same with the NHRA.

To paraphrase what I recall when certain teams were asked about what to do:
- Warren Johnson was asking the NHRA to go FI 15 years ago, so they obviously didn't take his advice in any timely manner. When they did finally switch, it was basically a poorly thought out knee-jerk type of change where they didn't give teams sufficient time to transition

- Allen Johnson said something like: "I don't know what the fix is, but there's definitely a problem." Maybe that's the perspective from someone too deep in the Pro Stock woods to be able to stand back and evaluate the situation better.

It's been my favorite class traditionally, but maybe it's simply run its course. Oh, wait, I already said that on another thread about pretty much the same thing.

If you try to copy from a loser (NASCAR) what do we you expect to happen. If you are going to copy, at least copy from a winner.

AJ has been interviewed in Hot Rod talking about what he and his dad suggested, including moving to a more drag pak car. NHRA didn't go that way.

The MP racers gave NHRA an ultimatum and NHRA dissolved the class. You can't beat the big machine. The south has the ticket for fans and racers and everything else is just OK. NHRA allowed some 275 cars compete at a national event. They are looking to cherry pick the sport in general. I don't think the ADRL has much of a chance to expand into a national market. NMCA is the best hope but they are very regional. NSS,S/SS alternatives, NPS, NFC, nostalgia in general, and all those outlaw classes is what brings the racer, vendors and fans to the track. Too many things vying for your money.

150% CORRECT. If you're not already in a racing family to begin with, you don't even know that Jr. dragsters exist.

The cost of an entry level jr dragster...

http://mikeboschassiscraft.com/jr%20dragster%20cars&price.htm

Say $4500, looks like no motor either?

I dont think the costs vs the future return is very reflective of even the middle/middle class of Americans.

Factor in the costs to and from, the parents time...

Umm what happened to starting out at 16-17 in a beater bracket car that might run 9.0 in the 1/8 or are kids just too spoiled these days.

It seems even the children of the big dogs of our era struggle to stay afloat.

Dont blame it all on the kids.

Most of the Jr's running 7.90's parents have close to 15K in them. Once they turn 18 they can no longer race them and the resell value on Jr is pennies on the dollar, why? Because alot of parents want the best for their kids so they might buy a used jr to start with to get the kids feet wet, but then they have to buy a new one so THEIR kid has the latest and greatest... Put 15K in a big car and you can drive it for a very long time....

I don't have the answer for the class, but IMHO it left anything to do with "stock" decades ago. So why call it "Pro Stock"? Why not call it what it is, the "Pro Millionaires Playground"? Run it as a sideline show or at limited events like Pro Mod. Then feature the new Challenger, Camaro and Mustang SS cars. This way at least the new car you see racing on TV looks like the one you see in the showroom.

IASCAR was the most spectated sport in the WORLD. Don't know about now. It's still probably pretty high on the list. NHRA did try to incorporate some of IASCAR's ideas (countdown, etc,) and has done a fair job of it. The big factor with NHRA is TV. It doesn't film well and TV coverage is nothing like being at the race. TV does not show how ridiculously quick and violent the cars are. Even the TV show one minute 1/8 mile runs with all the added tire squealing sounds doesn't come close to actually seeing the cars run. Add in the smells and sounds that are non existent on TV and you have a real loser. Sponsors are getting a tax write off and that's it. They are still spending the money but in no way is it a viable marketing venture. I have been to the Sonoma Nat. event, since it's inception, as a spectator or a participant and can tell you that fan participation when Pro Stock comes up has decreased steadily over that nearly 30 year time span. Fuel classes come up and the stands fill, fuel classes over and the stands empty. I have participated the last 4 or 5 years in Phoenix and Seattle and the yo-yo grandstand effect isn't nearly as noticeable as Sonoma. Fans pack the Utah Rocky Mountain Raceways Division 7 event. I don't know what the difference is besides locale. It seems to me that Pro Stock is not really the issue here as fuel fields are rarely full this year. Lose Force or Schumacher Racing and you've got a HUGE problem. My only thought is to maybe get some type of WiFi interaction with the head in my phone crowd. Apps for betting and fantasy drag racing and video and chicks and on and on... TV is NOT the answer, it seriously doesn't translate. I think it has to start with a renewed interest in the sport instead of the same old same old... Generally people are not interested in things that they can't afford to participate in. This steady decline has been going on for years and started with the imported car in the driveway and the closing of all the speed shops. I don't know about you but I can't stand the sight of Toyota emblems on a fuel car injector. Did that company actually do ANY r&d or engineering on ONE bolt of that engine? NHRA Pro's are whores, just like our US government personnel. To be honest, the thrill has waned for me too and I am just not interested in an imported commuter box turned race car. Camry! Let's Go Places!!! How about back to fukken JAPAN!!!

Whats lost in all of this is, What do the fans,who ultimately pay all the bills, want to see? I would only watch NHRA or go to an event to see the outcome of PS and some of the Super Stock classes. I would not go now if given free tickets to watch a bunch of NA funny car Camaros. In the old days of Pro Stock it was pure excitement and a war between brands and brand loyalty and usually standing room only at National events. Why leave these decisions up to clowns who are a scab on the back of inventive smart Racers and Multi Million dollar Race Teams that have a distorted view of what is needed. As in any other entertainment Venue such as Movies or sports, if the fans don't like what they see they don't go anymore. If NHRA sent a Questionnaire to its Membership, I would almost guarantee most of us would want stock body cars with stock engine blocks at equal weight and have at it. Just my 2 pennies

Been there done that so I know the sounds and the smells. Like football I now enjoy it more from home. No lines no 4.00 for a small bottle of water, no mile walk from the parking lot, fast forward on All Access for 99.00 a year and watch what I want when I want. I would love to go to Norwalk this weekend to watch the fastest heads up cars in the country but hopefully I can participate in at least the 8.50 class out there next year

It's not only the National Events either.

In Div 1, there used to be a reasonable turn out for a divisional race or national open.
Now, the stands are pretty much vacant.

The interest just isn't there.

Just announced. Top fuel harly will be at 10 events next year.

Rather watch them then pro stock.

It's a money thing, as has already been mentioned, the millionaires like Ken Black have essentially killed the class. It's their playground, they'll keep playing, even if no one else is watching.

Al Alguire,
I agree with your statement. But what I see the NHRA has done is taken the keys out of the hands of the common blue collar guy. If I want to go race at a competitive level its at least $500 a weekend. that figures in the costs of everything. Most guys don't have that liquid cash laying around. Most of us don't have a chassis cert that should be required for weekend bracket racing. I really think if the NHRA did something with weight like they do with the Pro Stock Bikes with Pro Stock maybe, just maybe the Mopar and ford guys can compete. I have done everything in my Power to keep my son in the hobby. he has a 67 Belvedere and is restoring to his liking nobody else's. I think its cool. another thing is the NHRA brand is gone, very few young folks know what that is. I had a young kid come up to me at Milan this last weekend saying that he appreciates me being a NRA member. I have a NHRA sticker on my rear window?? NHRA is doing a very poor job educating and selling the sport. I have applied to the nhra but haven't been hired, maybe next year. it tough to get hired to run the operation the way you feel it should be run.

it did seem to run better when it was race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

If I am out of line I am sorry.

Kids are the future, take a kid to a car show and they are hooked, take a Kid to a NHRA event and they think its cool?

Crazy

My take only. Match races. Get the cars, fuel, pro stock, anything out to the smaller tracks and venues. Start at the grassroots, advertise it and people will come. I grew up watching match racing and watching small events. The testing rules have really derailed expanding the product. Just my opinion but I remember watching these cars / teams as a kid and pretty tough to see the sport and what I thought it was whither.

The next generation (20's),and even the generation behind them (teens / kids) are heavily interested, but they are still in their infancy and are absolutely not interested in NHRA type stuff besides fuel cars for the wow factor. Go peruse the comment section of any 1320 video and the like and you'll see what I mean.

From what I gather: They love street racing / outlaw stuff, dislike LS swaps into everything, enjoy variety of cars/engines, not particularly brand loyal, don't know the difference between a wrench and a starter.

Its a start.

I hear you! When Camry's & other econoboxes started racing it killed it for me too. Even in TF/FC, it turns my stomach to watch a bunch of clone bodies with a sticker kit go at it with essentially the same hardware. I'd much rather watch bracket or Nostalgia classes. I used to be an avid Nascar fan too, not any more, same reason. Then there's the stupid "playoffs" or "Chase" or whatever. Its like the more they try to commercialize and mainstream the sport the worse it gets. The only motorsports that I find remotely interesting on TV these days is IMSA, MotoGP, and Supercross. Strong brand loyalty, strong semblance of showroom PERFORMANCE machines, and production-based bodies/motors. A lot of the young guys these days are into Drift and Rally, what do you suppose the common theme is there?

Its not hard, NASCAR and NHRA had it figured out 50 years ago, they just went stupid with "new" ideas.

Originally Posted By Dave Hall
. To be honest, the thrill has waned for me too and I am just not interested in an imported commuter box turned race car. Camry! Let's Go Places!!! How about back to fukken JAPAN!!!

Thats gonna go over well.

I hope it goes over like a turd in the punch bowl and wakes someone up. Toyota in NHRA and NASCAR. What a freaking farce! Why not BMW, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai??? It's all fake and everyone knows it. THIS is the problem.

No prep, radial, and outlaw races are immensely popular, to the point where tracks have to turn people away at the gate...
And you can only see them by being there, or live stream...
Big payouts, and big car counts, and big spectator draw.

The sport isn't dying. The nhra is.
And there is more to drag racing than the nhra.

life isnt fair, neither is NHRA or NASCAR

X3

Brand loyalty...... And drifting?

You mean like when they put an LS motor in a BMW or Nissan 200SX?

There's definitely less brand loyalty these days.

Couldn't have said it better... Went to the U.S. Nationals in Indy again, took the last couple years off. Sad to see the track about 1/3 empty on a Friday.

X4.
Pro stock died when it became a GM competitive only class. It just took 15 years to throw dirt on the grave. Not enough cars to fill 16 car fields.
No rule change for pro stock now will have any large impact on crowd or viewer size. That ship sailed and sunk.

Long term, NHRA can either add classes that younger people want to see, or close it's doors. I will give Clifford credit, he is at least trying new ideas. So maybe there is hope.

I've said for years that they have too many national events. Add in better tv coverage than in the old days, and many just don't need/want to go anymore.

When there were only 4 or 5 national events a year it was special to go to one. Now, not so much.

Why do you think grudge racing is so popular although some cars are damn near pro-mods but still a blast to watch AND sometimes unpredictable.......For me to cage and suit up in a mid 9-second car like mine is a joke, then the seat-belts every other years is nuts but I'm a humble low buck guy so street racing for me after my final 1/8 mile pass.........

The grudge/heads ups racing has been around for years with different levels of popularity. The NSCA type stuff was great to race in and watch, but crowds were not huge.
I think the big rise in crowd and tv ratings and car counts has to be attributed to the street outlaws tv show.

I am in the same boat you are car wise. I have a top sportsman challenger 4130 chassis car, that I will be lucky to run high 7's in when finished. Need to be in 7:10 range or better to be sure of qualifying for T/S.
I hate 9:90, or 8:90 gas racing.
I love heads up racing, but that's not in the budget, at least for 3 years.

Also, with the popularity of street outlaws, that has attracted even more new big money, 25k plus races all over the country. The new races attracts even more cars and crowds, and then add in social media to bring it all together. Just a perfect storm of needed parts to attract big crowds, cars, and even tv.

I think Moetown nailed it. Any marketable item has to be advertised. Street outlaws is basically a advertisement for that style of drag and it shows at the strip. I couldn't get in to the last shootout I tried to attend because of the crowd. I remember when every week the popular radio stations had advertisements for the local drags, don't hear them anymore. Perhaps the NHRA should hook up some way with one of the many car related tv shows.

One thing I remember, is almost every town had a track, now tracks are shutting down everywhere, and you have to drive a distance, and pay a ransom to watch a race.

Especially here in So Cal.............

I for sure picked the wrong time to move to AZ and then buy a race only car.

I remember when Sox, Roy Hill or Glidden would be booked at the local tracks in my area. Place was standing room only and no more than $10.00 to get in. The cars they had looked no different than the average bracket car of today. A steel body with a 9.90 cage. You could relate to those cars, not the one off space shuttles of today, knowing you could never have something like them. I'm building a 340 Duster for NHRA stock racing, entry fee for just a divisional race is $270, then you might spend half a day getting torn down, and you're there 3 days. A football game last 3 hours, a baseball game maybe 3 hours, a NASCAR race 4-5 hours, an NHRA national event last 5 DAYS. Most kids and adults have short attention spans, the reason those match races, SO races are-were popular, over in one afternoon or nite. It's all about the time.

I know when I was a teenager in the late 60's and early 70's everyone I hung with liked cars. And we all were brand loyal as some loved the 427 Vette's and some the Hemi Roadrunner and some the 428 SCJ Stang. But it gave all of us an interest in going to the track to see them cars racing each other. And we could relate so much to that. And in 1970 Pro Stock was the perfect class for the time and us young car nuts. The match racing was awesome when you could see the Pro racers at your local track going at it. And they ran the same eng as the car brand. 426 Hemi Cuda's Duster's and so on against 427 Camaro's and Nova's against 427 and 429 Mustang's and Maverick's. The sport just dont have that today in many if any classes. They need to have the young kids getting interest in it by racing cars they can relate to. It was great to see a car racing that looked just like the car you drive and had an eng made by that brand manufactor. Heck the Pro Stock engines of today are all generic and mostly the same. I dont know the real answer but I feel they need a class to run the new Challenger , Camaro and Mustang heads up. In the old days they had so many different cars to race where today its pretty much just them three from the US manufactors. Myself I love the Nostalgia Super Stock racing and the FAST and Pure Stock racing and thats because its all the 60's and 70's muscle cars I can relate to. Ron

There are the Factory Stock and Factory SS classes. My engine guy and I went to the Gators on Thursday this spring and there was a pretty good crowd there. The announcer called it "Hardcore Thursday" with a better than anticipated turnout, but the once-in-a-lifetime conditions (~-2900' DA) didn't produce record times since most shutoff around 1000' to avoid the HP hit. It doesn't seem like NHRA wants to promote the classes much. The shootout races are heads-up but are eight car fields from what I've seen. I think there are enough cars out there to make a 16 car field.

The trouble with these classes is MOST of their passes are made early in the event before most of the weekend spectators show up.

I think Pro Stock is boring now. I understand how it got there but I think the end result is boring. I know that those cars have a boat load of cash and technology and R&D time in them. I understand how much work it takes to build those cars and to run them. I get it - but the end result is BORING.

I loved the class back in the days before computer controlled air shocks and all of that turned the races into a slot car contest. I know that is what they have to do to get down the track clean and fast and safe but it is to dull to watch so I just ignore it.

I used to love walking thru the pits back with Glidden and Grumpy and watch those guys working on real production based engines in cars that actually had VIN tags.

NASCAR suffered the same fate. They built so much technology into the cars that it became boring and silly. (at least to me)

Allen made a very nice hit during first round yesterday but got beat on a hole shot. I fast forward through the class after that

I'm going to SGMP for No Mercy, and they pay 50k to win Radial vs the world. Plus 10k for multiple classes. Can't wait, gonna be packed!

Too bad the best minds in drag racing are almost sidelined.

What I'd like to see before it gets cut, is a one time 2 year event. Just the raw materials to build a car. Tubing, a spec body, spec electric, bare un machined engine castings ect. Only one person is allowed to touch the materials,and build the entire car, and that is the same person that has to drive it. One man show, open to anyone who can purchase the spec pile, and they all work in a supervised shop with each competitor have the same access to the same tools, machines ect.

Would be interesting to see the spread.

I agree with Andy the class is boring and Ron is also correct they should run the Challenger , Camaro and Mustang heads up.
Make them 3/4 chassis cars with a 400 CID limit. Take them to a wind tunnel and even out the aero.
My favorite classes used to be modified production and pro stock. It was impressive to see stock bodied cars run that fast.

No mercy is on my to do list. Huge race.
SGMP has a lot of big races.

Look at the attendance to the Yellow Bullet Nats.Over 500 cars racing 'till midnight.This and the events like lights out and such PACK them in.

True,but start having one every other weekend and see what happens.

Make the payout big enough, and it'll continue to draw.

I was again quite surprised at how few people were in the stands at Charlotte....... For all the pro catagories.

It won't survive long like that.

There is a big money street/heads up race just about every other week it seems. Hard to keep track of them all.

I for one would love to see Super Stock and Stock cars running in a race together, no classes just dial it in and not be worried about going to fast for a HP hit. 1990 and earlier cars, run what you brung. Stockers still run on 9 inch tires. No bracket cars, no rails. All done in one day with a big payout. Do this once or twice a month and they might say to hell with NHRA.

So it's a bracket race again except both classes run together. If so that would be very boring to most

wasnt that what Michael Beard , Loose Rocker Promotions , tried a year or so ago ? Didn't pan out if I recall .

Tex

It depends on what you're there for, just to see a win light or two nice cars going down the track. Hate to breake the news but NHRA is bracket racing with an occasional class race where the biggest wallet wins.

How many true heads-up classes aren't dominated by the biggest wallet?

All of them, top to bottom. And a little help from the HP factor

Sad, but true... It's like watching paint dry at 200+ MPH.

Pro stock cars look like the same banana with decals for identification. I like hearing the engines scream, but to the average guy, they want races that are unpredictable.
It doesn't matter the class, some guys will just try to outspend their competitors, like we've seen in Pro Stock with Ken Black.
That said, some guys just work harder and smarter, like the Bruder Brothers.

Watched Pro Stock qualifying from the finish line yesterday. Enjoyed it. I'm not ready to stick a fork in it just yet.

Compared to how the stands have looked recently....... There seemed to be a pretty good crowd for Friday qualifying at the Grove.

PA and ohio usually have a pretty good turn-out.

BIG crowd for Friday. I got there before 8 and they were rolling in. Stands were full, 4 and 5 deep on the fence for the second fuel session. Better than I've seen in many years. Maple Grove and a great weather forecast on the same weekend doesn't happen very often.

Once again Pro Stock has more entries than Top Fuel and Funny Car. Everybody seems to be focused on the low car counts in Pro Stock, but fuel cars are hurting also. Just not enough incentive for any independents to race outside there region. In Chicagoland we have three funny cars and two top fuel teams that only race at 2-5 events a year. Zizzo shows up and qualifies in the top half of the field and only races three times per year.

Nhra needs to give the Pro classes an increase in purse and more teams will show up more often. I raced two National events this year and can tell you us Sportsman racers pay a big chunk of the events. Heck I had to pay $100 just for insurance at each race to nhra.