727 slow 2-3 shift, Guru help please!!!

i have a later 727 i believe out of an 89 power ram?
since i got it its had a slow 2-3 shift when moved manually
it has been completely rebuilt, clutches bands springs etc,
received a tf-2 kit and some valve body modifications.
b and m shifter, b and m hole-shot 2100 stall torque convert, b and m extended pan.



all clutches, belts. valves, springs, are all new and hopefully adjusted properly.
park, reverse, neutral, drive, 2 and 1 all work beautifully.

1-2 is rock solid and grabs perfectly.
2-3 at part or mid throttle is fine. WOT revs up as if in neutral then grabs 3rd. (kickdown/overlap/pressure? issue?)
putting it in drive/3rd goes through up and down gears perfectly fine even WOT.

i do not have a kick down or throttle leavers.
they are just at a stationary spot. possibly one of my issues.

i do believe the torque converter is full and level is ok as dips in neutral show fine.




it is however intercooled, and i routed it to keep fluid in it at all times but didnt bleed it (thinking pressure will push it through) and may have air in system/torque converter.

is band out of adjust? do i have to adjust the pressure? need guru help!

pictures of what my the trans and leavers look like.





can i externally adjust the overlap from the external kickdown adjuster stud to 72 ft-lbs then back it off 2.5 turns?, or perhaps this requires adjustment of the throttle shaft?
or whatever lingo is proper for either of these.

and yes. it was rebuilt in 2005. put into vehicle in 2008 and first drove a month ago.



me breaking in the trans and trying to burp it.

it has about 100 miles on the rebuild.
had 700 miles on it when it was pulled.

total life 800 miles.
i dont remember all the kit names for the rebuild since it was well over 12 years ago.
i do remember everything inside was brand new but i redid everything and added better and additional clutches.

(for obvious torque reasons)

hi
a tf-2 kit requires throttle preasure to be full back at wot !

So the nob above the shifter leaver should be turned all the way counter clockwise?
Keep in mind I don't have a throttle cable to the trans.

You either need to block that all the way back or put KD linkage/cable on it before you knock 2nd gear out altogether.

You need either the throttle pressure lever hooked up correctly or a manual valve body before anything else. Transmissions don't need to bled. Any air in the servos or clutch pistons will work out after a few applications.

However running it without the proper throttle pressure will burn the front clutches.

will it cause any issue running it at full pressure?
i hardly ever put it in drive/3 and put around i manual shift down and up.
next time i have the pan open i will upgrade it to a full manual valve body. anyone have suggestions?

also i remember the rebuild kit company i used was TCI.
so i guess im partial to picking their valve body kit unless someone suggests otherwise.

For what your doing you would be better off just
pulling the pan right now and changing the valve
body otherwise your gona have issues with the
trans... the one thing that might cause you
a problem is the front vent.. in a M/V trans you
need to move the vent to the tail shaft and plug
the stock vent.. or it tends to spit fluid out..
on whos to use... there are plenty to pick from..
I have a turbo action in my junk.... OR just set
up a throttle arm with the proper ratio on the arm
to give you the pressure you need.. its simple

Do you want manual only or do you want auto shifts? Either way can be done, but as suggested above, you do need to change the way you have the throttle lever set up now.

On my last blower car which was primarily a street car, I started with a cable kick down which worked okay. But changed to a forward manual valve body. I usually like to shift the car manually anyway and the tranny just reacts quicker and more consistently with the manual valve body.

I even had A&A build a manual valve body for the 518 in my current Cuda street car. They softened the 1-2 shift and the reverse engagement so that they weren't banging all the time. It makes for a good combination on a street car.

Plenty of choices for you once you make the decision on which way you want to go.

i am perfectly fine running manual shifts only. looks like revised throttle bodies arent too expensive about $300. i may look into it for the new season. for now i just want it driveable. it hasnt moved in a decade and half. like i said everything works just annoying to have to back off throttle to have 2-3 shift nicer.

ill try running it at max pressure always. unless that will hurt things? the extended pan and cooler shouldn't let the system overheat. and technically shouldn't be any issue running full pressure?

i might get lucky and have money for a trans-brake version.

If you don't have proportionate shift strength, the car will be a PITA on wet pavement. I have full throttle pressure all the time (not 727) even though I have auto upshift, and the car will loop if the steering wheel is turned when it shifts.

so if i am correct it needs to go counter clockwise, should i make a leaver on it and tie it off. or will it stay where i put it?

Tieing the lever back will solve your full throttle upshift flare but as soon as you slow down below governor speed the trans will downshift to second automatically.

A manual valve body is your only option if you don't want the hassle of a kickdown cable setup. Doing neither is a guaranteed transmission rebuild in the fairly immediate future.

Kevin.

You can't just tie the throttle lever back because it won't shift until the RPM hits the governor shift point and then (as mentioned) will down shift way soon, too, In other words, you won't have much control over when the thing shifts.

Only 3 choices; a properly adjusted kick down, a manual valve body, or risk hurting the tranny.

Just put a KD on it.. you can get a Locar cable
and the rest of the stuff from them.. then it
might take a little time to get it right for
you.. then you can shift it or let it do its
job for you.. took me a little time to get mine
adjusted where I like it... that way you wont
tear up your trans.. all those soft shifts are
cooking the trans

ok ill pick up a lokar cable set.
where the hell can i find an actual lever?

I used this kit on my Dart project.

http://bouchillonperformance.com/inc/sdetail/589

Be prepared for some fabrication to make it all work right. If you don't find any levers close by, I think I have 1 or 2 lying around. There are different length levers which will affect how the ratios interact between the carb and tranny. I drilled extra holes in the lever till I got the correct action between the carb and tranny.

im trying to procure a lokar cable kit.
i do need a lower lever arm
one really cool guy offered to send me one.
if it cant be done ill take you up on your offer.

sadly im in the igloo country of canadah.
i am in no rush as the engine is down due to lifter retainer wire failure.

discussion about that is located here
board.moparts.org re-lifter-ok-to-re-assemble-or-should-i-replace

The upper arm is the throttle pressure. Try to get the shortest one you can (like the upper row in the pic below) for use with the Lokar.

Any chance of part numbers or manufacturer?

so i pulled her out of storage, fired up instantly
was very impressed, threw it in neutral let it all get warm
when i went to put it in drive. i had nothing.
reverse is instant and nice like how its always been.

giving her some rev engages forward motion.
almost as if its not getting proper pressure.
trans level is good. but i drained the oil anyways.
nothing on the magnetic drain plug. filled it back up.

reverse is strong, forward feels like a burnt out clutch on a manual.
requiring some revs to make it engage.
i decided to take her for a small spin, after the initial "slip"
or lack of engagement in first seemed to be ok and goes to second.
then feels like going neutral to drive etc as if it was out of fluid.
third does the same.

its only got about 40 hours of driving on the rebuild and was fine at the end of last season.

i would assume one of the bands are out of spec?
would it be the exterior adjuster or the one in the pan?
or am i looking and pulling it out again and redoing seals/clutches etc?

another note cooler gets warm and the fluid never got hot enough to burn me.
(180F or under) always feels like a hot oil change.

sounds like the forward clutch to me, that is the one that is engaged in all the forward gears except for neutral and park, could be a worn out set of clutches or a piston sealing ring blow out,, as far as the 2-3 shift the band is what accomplishes that and the adjuster is the one on the outside of the case, low reverse is the inner one.

can the TCI
(super pro or master race kit i forget which it was)
burn off that quick?
also wouldnt there be debris in the pan/magnet?

there was no indication of slip
(feels more like lazy to engage or needs more pressure)
until i pulled it out of storage
haven't even had any serious burnouts
aside from the baby ones linked above
not even any hard launches.

ill try the band before pulling it out.
***unless someone suggests not to bother and just pull it***
its never been adjusted since its rebuild
sat for 12 years and only done about 500 miles.

prior to changing everything out to the TCI
it was on stock internals for a lot of abuse.
about 5 years, millions of burnouts and launches.

can the TCI
(super pro or master race kit i forget which it was)
burn off that quick?
It can if run with improper pressure. Did you not run this previously with no throttle pressure linkage attached? Complain of soft 2/3? Adjusting the intermediate band will do nothing. It is used for 2nd gear only. My bet is you've wounded the rear clutch for sure, probable more.
Doug

yeah i've always ran the trans at full pressure no linkage attached.
and always had the 2-3 shift softness, i learned to let off and let it engage.
or if i was putting around town id leave it in D and let it do its thing.
i did notice i down shift to first a lot now then before.
but it grabs fine on downshifts not sure if the 727 likes that.

im guessing just a bad seal. i never smelled anything like a clutch burning.
it does grab and pull till it doesn't and feels like gone to neutral, as if starving for fluid.
will even pulse like pump was finally getting fluid/pressure then losing it over and over.

only reason why i freshened up everything was because it was already out.
whats the best way to test? pull pan and do the air test?

for a minute or two. it was stuck in only forward. gave no neutral. it done this as i was parking it for the winter,
i didn't think of it because it was so brief, i passed it off to possibly melting the shift cable.

it did it again for me the other day when i pulled it out.
but once i got it to go in reverse/neutral again. symptoms came back.
being slow forward engagement and i guess slipping when giving it extra power.
while it was stuck in forward mode. it would go through all gears perfectly.

ill have it on the hoist next month and pull the pan down.
suggestions and pointers what to check first before i commit to yanking it.
does give me an excuse to go through the whole motor too.
as its much easier for me to pull both out at once.

engine stand been alone in the corner for 12 years.

You can pull the pan and do a pressure test but
get ready to pull the trans.. I'm sure you cooked
the clutch

Classic symptoms of a rear clutch failure; fairly common after mods that raise the line pressure and/or accumulator mods.

No sense wasting time on air checks, pull it out.

any recommended rebuilt kit and manual valve body?

its very odd ran it like this for years.
after a rebuild i'm having the issue.
i hope its something stupid like a failed seal.

starting to wish i went manual (clutch peddle is still in the car)

how are 904s? i think i had one in my 2001 5.9 diesel cummins.
and i put it through hell. 600hp 1000+ torque. pulled, burnouts in 4x4 etc. put 423,000 km on it without a single issue.

After this last post I'm calling BS on the whole post.

904s are great, but if you had one in your diesel truck it was sliding around in the bed.

I agree with that, that truck had a 48re if I remember correct, my 93 diesel has a 618 which is a off shoot of the 727, it go's back to what I said earlier, fried clutch's or a blown sealing ring at the apply piston, the intermediate band can affect the shift quality of 2-3 shift.

Lots of things can effect the 2-3 shift. His issue sounds like a forward clutch problem at least. Time to take it out and take it apart and look at it.

that is my opinion also and why I mentioned it first.

here is a video i made for when it was up for sale.
the entire mod list was in the window.



sorry for thinking it was a 904, the post even says i think i had one in the truck.

the transmission did very well though. all it got was a torque converter upgrade.

ive seen 4L60E (chevy) hold up in turbo 6.0 vehicles.
but id hate to put in a chevy trans but i do have a spare one.

what is so bs about the entire post?
the car was on the road 2001 to 2005.
taken apart then reassembled to its current state last year.
everything is shown in my tare down buildup and assembly links.

transmissions previous life, no kickdown/throttle cable


it pulled out


after rebuild (old clutches showed nothing serious)


after sos pads and some high temp clear coat


as you can see none of the photos even have the arm for the kick down/throttle cable and was run at near wide open

dont get me wrong ive never done any work to auto transmissions.
i prefer manuals but i had the 727 and was young and had low income on the first build.
and everyone tells me how great the 727 is so i kept it.
im just sad that if it was something i did or just a bad component.

i cant see my brief shifting habits last season being worse then how i drove it years ago and it did the same 2-3 shifts then as it did now.

The kick down isn't really just a kick down device. It varies the transmission pressure. More throttle, more pressure holding the the bands and clutches. When you add power you need enough pressure to keep the components clamped to keep them from slipping. You added power and it slipped. Pretty simple. Take it out, you'll find damage. I'd suggest a manual valve body in your application. That way there is no throttle pressure linkage or cable.
Doug

Alright. I'll post results when I have it out