HEMI oil consumption?

I love to read car magazines, I have a collection that includes the first "Super Stock and Drag Illustrated" that I bought in 1968. Reading articles on original, often brand new HEMI cars is interesting.
One item that is mentioned in at least four original articles is oil consumption, lots of it! The worst case was the Ray Brock article in 65' about the single four barrel, 4 speed "rally" car that Chrysler loaned him. With a 4:30 gear, a quart of oil every 150 miles!
Another, on a 69 Charger with 3.54 gear, stated a quart every tank of gas, (200 miles?)
An article in a modern Muscle Cars, issue talks about a 66'Satelite 3.54 gear four speed that slowed? his consumption to a quart every 600 miles by using Royal Tritan straight 60 weight!
I have a HEMI that is strictly cruise/street car. It uses more oil than I like although all clearances, valve seals, intake sealing and spark plug tube, no compression washer on plugs, etc. has been done.
My question is, if you put MILES on your HEMI, have you noticed more oil consumption than a similar build wedge engine?
Or do any of you have any experience, or theory as to why this is? Just curious.
Another thought, If HEMI engines used this amount of oil, how did the early NASCAR teams deal with an engine that turned 7,500 rpm for 500 miles? Also, did the Ford and GM NASCAR engines have oil usage? Being built for this type of racing, I assume clearances etc. were optimized for the continuous high rpm, so as the HEMI was made "street able" in 66', did the "race" clearances/design that caused oil consumption just come along to the street version?
I have found MANY comments about oil consumption being one of the high cost/high maintenance reasons that so few were purchased. The word was out, buy a HEMI and have it worked on all the time and add oil all the time!
Your thoughts, experiances?

I have only had 2 Hemis and both sucked oil through the intake gaskets. Never had that problem on any of my wedges. I have fought it and fought it on both Hemis. On the first one, I slowed it down a bit but never got it stopped.

Paper gaskets will let oil wix through them. The Superformance gaskets helped mine a lot.

On my current one (World block, MP Eddy heads) I think I have it slowed to a crawl. Haven't added oil for about 600 miles. But I do notice blue puffs at cold start-up.

Check your intake ports in the heads for oil.

No oil consumption here! It does like gas though

Back in the 80's when I drove my Hemis quite a bit they seemed to like a quart about every 1,000 miles or so. Loose pistons, so-so gaskets and valve seals I imagine were the cause. No way I ever used a quart of oil per tank of gas however my friend Bruce had an LS7 crate engine in his 67 Corvette and it did use a quart of oil per tank of gas.

There's not much unique about a HEMI over any other RB. The intake gaskets can leak oil from the valley into the chambers but that's about it. The rest is as has been said: rings, valve guides and seals.

Straight bores with standard tension oil rings and good valve stem clearances with good oil seals and sealing up the intake gaskets with gaskets sealer should insure very low oil consumption
It has for me on most of the street hemi we drove on the street, both of them

When they were new back in the 60's, the street Hemi had low tension Dykes rings from the factory, as well forged pistons set up with a loose fit in the bore. That is a recipe for oil consumption, and Mopar stated as such.

A 426 Hemi with a modern set of rings will use no more oil that any similarly built forged piston, peformance engine.

My green 67 GTX, back when the engine was stock and pretty well worn out would go about 200-300 miles on a quart.

My blue 67 GTX convert that I drove about 5000 miles on the last 2 Drag Week event goes 1200 - 1500 miles on a quart.

Well I have the heads off and am looking at the bores. I have never seen bores with cross hatch in places and not in others!
It is obvious that the rings could not possibly seal. This was a new,,never run Siamese block, new Diamond pistons and Seal Power Molly rings.
So, it looks like I need to go to 4.375” with a proper bore/hone. Perhaps the block “seasoned” itself in the 8,000 miles of street driving and is now settled down.
I am looking at JE pistons with the high silicone for tight fitting. That will allow the new Edelbrock heads, and etc. So more power? If I am going to go through the whole engine, I might as well end up with more power!

Before you go into full panic mode, take the block to a machinist that is actually a machinist this time to measure the bores for taper and out of round. You might be able to just have it honed (properly this time) and reringed. After all it only has 8000 miles from new.

Hemi blocks or any others for that matter seem to be made of unobtanium so you don't want to use up the one you have any quicker than necessary.

Kevin

hi
have it honed with a torque plate for sure !

If it just needs a hone,you can have the pistons coated to adjust the piston to wall clearance within reason.

Where are you at in Tennessee?

Chattanooga

I was hoping you were closer. I'm 125 miles southwest of Memphis. If you feel so inclined you could bring your block, pistons, head gasket and head bolts/studs down here and we could find out where you are at. I have a Sunnen CV 616, Sunnen dial bore gage in tenths, Sunnen setting fixture, Mitutoyo profilometer and a torque plate. We could measure where you are now, then hone it until it's clean. Then we could decide if you need pistons or not. Hopefully not. Might have .001" more piston clearance but so what? The profilometer will tell you the surface finish is good. Then I have some Edelbrock heads here that we could put on there to check the intake to cylinder wall clearance. Your fix might all be very easy. And may not really cost you anything.

Thanks so much! That is very generous and yes I would take you up on it if I were closer. I do have a similar offer here that I am going to take.
There have been many opinions, One being that the 4.5” stroke could be contributing to the problem.
Working on getting the short block out to investigate further.

I had a friend suggest that the 4.5” stroke would make the engine harder to seal, also said that it promoted pre mature wear of the bores.
With a 6.86 rod, my engine has the same ratio as a 454 Chevy, do any of you have an opinion on stroke vs. longevity and oil consumption?
Thanks

To me, bore geometry and surface finish are way more important than what your friend is saying. I personally don't like to get the piston hanging out the bottom of the bore until you can see the oil ring, but if the ring belt isn't abhorrent and everything else is correct, your combo shouldn't be an issue.

I think most guys are still running too much piston to wall clearance. I've seen stuff come through the shop that was on it's first freshen and it would need to be taken to the next over to save it. Sometimes, you could coat the Pistons and save them for one rebuild.

Now, with the Line2line coating, you can save more stuff that's too loose. The L2L coating is a very good product. I've only seen it used once, but the results were better than expected.

OK so I have the engine out. The bores with crosshatch appear to be too big. I can see most of the top compression ring. Plus I have a crack or foundry error in #2.
So I will have a set of Diamond coated 4.350” pistons and Manley H beam 6.86” rods for sale.
Since I will have to bore the engine to clean up the cylenders, I will have to buy new pistons, might as well go to a 7.100 rod to ease the rod ratio with 4.5” crank.

You should be able to use Line2Line coatings on those pistons and save some money. Unless you want to change parts.

I think you need to sonic test that area that looks bad in that cylinder, maybe even have it pressure tested in that cylinder also

This is a Mega Block, the area in question is between #2 and #3, that area should be solid!

I would measure the piston skirts and bores before buying pistons, seeing the top ring means nothing to me as that part of the piston is smaller. From what I see is it possible the head gasket was seeping when the car sat, or do you see a crack for sure? If it was seeping with the rusting and the white corrosion I think you found your problem, rings are ruined. If that is a crack, and that block is siamese, you had better magnaflux at least that bore,and the bore beside it. I would do them all.

I'm thinking you must really mean 2 and 4. Or maybe 3 and 5.

Given the odd pattern of corrosion I wonder if the bores were straight from the get go. Although we will never know the answer, It's safe to say they're not going to be straight now. If the corrosion got to the rings, looks like there is a good chance of that, then safe to assume they're gone.

I suggest check ring side clearance and overall condition of the ring grooves before putting pistons up for sale or deciding selling price, (to avoid angry future customers). Good chance they are still OK but never hurts to make sure.

7.10 rod and 4.50 stroke is probably the path of least resistance in terms of not only known decent rod ratio (Same as a Pontiac 455, can't get much more conservative than that) and relatively quick/easy parts availability.

LOL, yes it is #2 and #4

As for needing longer rods to keep the scirt of the piston from coming out of the bore, How much improvement do you think it will make over this?
I also see a good crosshatch at the bottom of the bore, so I don’t think sideloading wore out the bottom of the bore.

I am also trying to identify the block and date of casting. The casting date appears to be 0815?

A good machine shop should get you squared away, also the 4.5 stroke should not be a factor...

Good chance I got it wrong but I believe it could be the 15th week of 2008.

The "MC" inside a shield indicates Motor Castings foundry.

Darned if I can remember the location of the stamped in machining code (not a direct date), but MP never required Cummins Recon to document it or provide the decoder ring for it anyway. The Cummins markings were for the most part useless during my time working with these gems.

After the megablock went away casting date wasn't tracked on the block any longer, only the machining date was tracked by a stamping in the front.

Thanks for the replies. Yes I think a GOOD bore/hone and new pistons will square it away. #2 wall will either clean up or be sleeved. I have an appointment to pressure test to be sure that it is not a crack.
The history on the short block is quite interesting and I have paperwork to prove most of it.
I bought the short block from a gentleman who grew up in Detroit. He bought the block as soon as Mancini had several to choose from. This one sonic tested the best.
The crank with standard Mopar journals was in a shipment from Callies to Scott Karlita. Not having the “special” journal size, Scott sold it.
The whole short block was sent to Diamond (early this century) where pistons were provided, Manley rods were purchased (standard Mopar length, journal and pin as they were on sale). The bore and finish hone and balance (Mallory metal) was done by none other than Butch Elkins before he passed away and Diamond closed the machine shop. This is reportedly one of the last engines that Butch did.

Found the problem, no wonder it used oil street driving! The oil rail is through the wristpin hole. Useless for a street engine!
I find this is common for a 4.5” stroke. So, a Callies 4340 billet crank balanced with Mallory metal, Diamond 3.50” pistons 10.8 cr at 0 deck, are all up for grabs.

A little history here, this was one of the last assembly’s done at the now defunct Diamond Racing. Crank is standard Mopar journals.
Fine for a race engine, this one was originally intended for boost, but not what I want for a street engine.

I've run the ring around the wrist pin many times. That's not why it's using oil. Unless I'm missing something, there is no reason to think that the oil ring passing around the wrist pin will cause an engine to use oil.

I'd keep looking.

Until you get everything measured properly there's no way of knowing what you have.

Right now my money is on you were sold a bill of goods.

Kevin

Granted, the bores are not what they should be but I have always understood that unsupported oil ring is a no no for the street. Even Rich in his blook says to stay away from it.

I'm sure it's said to stay away from it. Sometimes you can't. But oil consumption because the oil ring isn't supported 100% by aluminum but is supported 90% or even 80% by aluminum and the rest by steel doesn't affect oil control as I've seen it.

The biggest things for oil control are bore geometry, crankcase pressure and second ring design.

To me, oil ring placement is like connecting rod side clearance. It's been taught wrong for decades and sometimes still is. I suspect long after I'm dead someone will still go berserk because the side clearance was over .024 or some silly number such as that.

I'd hate to see you spend a bunch of time and money and not fix the issue. IMHO, your problem isn't in oil ring placement.

But I've been wrong before. Just ask my wife.


EDIT: I should add the biggest oil burner I've seen was a customer who did his own engine assembly. The engine was a mosquito killer and the blame went to me for my honing procedure.

When the customer finally got tired of bitching about how crappy my cylinder honing was, he pulled the engine to take it apart so it could have the bores "touched up" by a "real machinist" who understood "how to run an F'ing hone".

The bad thing was...once it was apart, he realized HE didn't install the oil ring spacer.

Of course, he didn't go back to the track for 4 consecutive weeks and tell everyone who would listen how stupid the engine assembler was.

I post that because 1. It's damn funny and 2. Because stuff happens. It's not always what is blatantly obvious that is the issue.

Nope, that's not why you're burning oil. That ring setup is NOT a no-no for the street. My hemi is like that and uses no oil.

Many(most?) 1.320 c/h pistons used in low deck 451/470/511 builds have the pin bore in the oil ring groove.

Same with lots of SBC stroker combos.

If the oil is coming past the rings(especially that much oil), the perimeter of the piston tops should be pretty much completely clean.

Try mesuring oil ring tension with a fish scale. Take top and second ring off piston. Install it upside down and pull it out with fish scale,you my do this a couple times to get a feel for it. Also you may find it to be ok tension wise,good luck.

All the low deck pump gas stroker motors I build have the wrist pin in the oil ring groove, no problem on any of them so far on oil consumption Those pistons come with a tool steel oil ring spacer to keep the oil ring seated against the spacer so the rings will rotate without getting hung up in the wrist pin bores, I'm assuming Maybe not
Knock on wood now so I don't jinxed myself

The picture the OP posted shows the spacer rail installed.

Again, that isn't the OP's issue and I hope he keeps looking so he doesn't go through this again.

Thanks for the replies. It seems all agree that the oil ring in the pin hole is not an issue. To back it up, I talked to three “name” piston manufacturers that agree with you guys.
I have found cylinder walls that I don’t like, and oily valve head/guides on the intake.
I have finally got the crank out and am waiting to get some measurements.
So, you guys don’t have a problem running a 4.5” stroke on the street?
After reading posts on here about cranks, I am a little hesitant to let my Callies go!

Like has been said many times already...the oil ring location isn't your problem, the 4.5" crank isn't a problem, and worn valve guides and/or valve seals won't cause as much oil consumption as you have.
If the above was an issue, then my 572" hemi would have guzzled oil (all 3 "problems"), but it never has.

I still believe your issue all along has been ring seal.

If the bores aren't completely FUBAR, you might get away with honing with an appropriate finish for whatever ring material you choose.

A freshen up will be less painful than a full rebuild.

Kevin

On your deal you need to measure all the bores with a torque plate mounted to see if the bores are round and straight before doing anything to fix the oil consumption problems

Just finished getting everything out of the block (working on it in evenings after work). Next step is getting it to a competent machine shop for measuring and evaluation.

Well good or bad, I a taking everything to a shop that “checks out” next week. I want everything measured, and a written estimate of what it will take to make it right. We will see how it goes.

I wouldn't be afraid to drive one day one way to take it to shop that is really high end. JMO.

Update. For all of you that said bore seal, you were right. Valve guide issues as well.
I spent a day in Greenville TN With Bob at Performance Automotive.
He did a lot of work on Allan Johnson’s Pro Stock project. The first thing he did was run a bore gauge in the cylinders. The block was bored and finished honed when I delivered it to the first shop. I have the receipts from Diamond Racing. The pistons (Diamond) were 8032 alloy, fit at .003-.0035.
So why was there an obvious cross hatch and a measurement of .007-.0075? The first shop obviously didn’t think there was enough clearance?
The intake guides were round, no taper and measured .0015-.0017. But the exhaust were round and straight but .006-.0065?
So, DOUBLE the ideal clearance on the pistons, causing ring failure. The extra clearance in the guides didn’t help either.

So on to the next question. I have a buyer for the original un ported aluminum MP heads. I think that I should go with the new Edelbrock head designed for larger stroked HEMI engines, (mine is 540cid and will be larger once the bores are round and true).
I hate to go to all this work and expense and not make an improvement!
Combo is 4.375? Bore with 4.5 stroke. 248/254 @ .050, .585” lift net on a solid roller.
I am running a Mopar “Marine” intake with two 750 Hollys.
This is a 4,175lb STREET car with 3.54 gear and Gear Vendor overdrive.
It made peak power (635) at 5,900 rpm with the MP heads.
What do you all think about going to the Edelbrock heads?

Which would net the best bang for the buck; a quality port job on the heads you have or buying new heads?

And how does that intake and carb combo compare to an Indy DP and Dominator? I'll bet that the DP and a big Thumper Dominator would find some missing ponies. And maybe some better street manners to boot.

I don't know of ANY ring that will seal with 100% or more clearance. Why guys don't believe what the piston manufacturer says for clearance isn't enough. I mean...if an extra .0005 (half a thou) doesn't keep the piston from sticking in the bore, nothing will.

That excess clearance is a ring seal killer. I still believe that a coating from Line 2 line would have fixed that issue.

And guides with a clearance like socks on a rooster won't help either.

Most of the time, the recommended clearance from the piston manufacturer is the minimum recommended clearance.

If that amount of oil was coming by the rings, the car should have been followed around by a continual cloud of blue smoke.

True, but he also said the exhaust guides were loose too. The piston may not have been loose enough to road fog everything, but ring seal was certainly compromised.

Porting the current MP heads is a better choice performance per dollar. Send them to MCH and have them CNC'd.

That much guide clearance definitely isn't a good thing, but it wasn't causing much, if any, of your oil consumption. Especially considering it was the exhausts and not the intakes that were worn.

I had a set of BB iron heads that had less than .0030 guide to valve clearances that had oil running down them onto the top of valves that I saw when removing the headers
That was back in the days when some racers didn't run valves seals on the exhausts, me included I started running them after that

Yes I saw oil on the valve stems. How tight can I set them? Considering everything, do you guys not think I would be better off with the Edelbrock head? After all, it flows way more at .600 lift than my MP heads. They were “designed for 500+ ci engines?

My understanding is the stock heads were to big for 426 inches and they work much better w/ another 100 inches. What would the flow be of ported stockers @ .600 vs. the flow of stock Edelbrocks?

I was told by a very competent Hemi engine builder, racer and machinest to run no more than .0010 on the intakes and no more than .002125 on the exhaust on a new pump gas street motor build

My understanding is stock ported flow about 330 vs the Edelbrock 400

Thanks Cab, that goes along with what I’ve been reading.

Go with the Edelbrocks

I ran across this in my travels/research. Maybe it will help you...hopefully it doesn't add to the confusion.

I know if I were deciding on what heads to use on my hemi, to put in my 4175lb strictly street car with 3.54’s and OD unit......... really big flow numbers would be right at the top of my list of “must haves”.

You neeeeeeeeeeed 400+cfm of flow available when you’re racing along at 2100rpm.

That’s the answer he’s looking for.

Ask and ye shall receive

Dang Dwayne, is that a bit of Yankee Christmas sarcasm!??!
My Mopar aluminum Hemi heads were CNC ported by Modern and by the sheet flowed 446 cfm on the intake, 261 on exhaust. Theoretically, they could support 1000 hp. Looking back, I could have met my goals with less flow and made the same hp at a lower rpm. I quit racing several years ago, so it's about a 99% street car now. Like most of us, sometimes you get carried away looking for max hp. If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know now, I would send them to Dwayne and have him port them to a level that is commensurate with your goals and use. Nothing wrong with the Mopar head, if your guides are good, porting and a good valve job and you are in business. If you just want the edelbrocks, by all means, get them. I sure never discourage anyone from spending money! I know I am good at it! Let us know what you do, this has been an interesting post!

Huh?whaaa??

Noooooo........ he wants to buy some new Edelbrock Victor heads(the series of heads they offer for race engines) for his strictly street car......... and I’m just being agreeable.
It’s his car, his build, his money...... his decision.
If those are what he wants....... he should just buy ‘em.

It’s certainly easier than boxing up your old stuff, shipping it out...... waiting for it to come back, etc.
One call to Summit and a couple days later...... boom..... new heads are at your door.

"If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know now, I would send them to Dwayne and have him port them to a level that is commensurate with your goals and use. Nothing wrong with the Mopar head, if your guides are good, porting and a good valve job and you are in business."

This is exactly what I did a few years ago when it was time to re do my 472 crate Hemi. Dwayne did his magic based on my needs for a strong street only cruiser (64 Sport Fury Conv, 4250 lbs. 5 spd). He easily squeezed 363 cfm @ .550 lift out of my iron heads and spec'ed a very satisfying solid lifter cam and EDM lifters for a very nice price. There is something special about having heads and cam customized to your purpose build. Good luck.

Ernesto

Really? Are you being serious? I value your opinion very much. I know that at cruising speed the air flow does’nt matter. But last year at our “Moparts” Mike Bucle asked me to race his HEMI Coronet just for fun. I would like to take him up on it next year!

Dewain, I have plenty of time. I am not opposed to sending you my heads, or having you do both the heads and new cam if you think I need it.’
I am posting to get advice, and I value yours.
After all the work, expense and time spent, I would like to improve what I have. At 63 years of age, I would like to put this engine together and enjoy it from now on.
I have waited nearly all my life to have a HEMI convertible that I could drive anywhere. So, what do you suggest?

Who is Dewain?

Pretty sure this may be the flow sheet from my heads I've posted here a few times. They are the normal MP aluminum street hemi heads CNC ported by MCH.
Make well over 800 hp on pump gas on my 572" hemi.

The OP's original question seems like a simple one to answer. He wants the best performing head. And although he didn't mention it, he probably wouldn't be opposed to the least cash outlay to get there.

I got the same flow chart that Zippy posted with my heads that MCH did a few years ago. It would be easy to price that port job today from them or from Dwayne.

Then somebody surely has a flow chart for the new Eddies. And pricing them is no problem.

Comparing flow to dollars should make the right choice clear.

And if it matters, the ported MPs on my 540 have great street manners. 250* cam, Indy dual plane intake and a Thumper Dominator top it off. It starts right up, has a steady idle, and drives with no bad habits. My point is that the 400ish flow is not a problem on the street.

I personally think that it is important to have a Hemi (even a Hemi that doesn't see much racing) to run like a Hemi is expected to run. Nothing is worse that to pull up beside a brand Xer and not be able leave him in the dust. The few times that I have had a race, my Hemi had upheld the Hemi tradition. That is worth the price of admission.

So, I say 'go for it', OP. Help that Hemi run like a Hemi! And when you can do it for a bit less money one way rather than another, and have good street manners, too....what's not to love?

I’m not really lobbying for the job......... and if I ported them they wouldn’t flow anywhere near as much as the flow sheet posted.

Since Dave has had such good results with his CNC ported heads from Modern on his mild combo, that’s probably the best bang for the buck for reusing the current heads.

Or sell em and buy the Victors.
The Victors flow right at about 400ootb.

Once a guy has that beast, I feel it had better be capable of running respectably hard, staying in context with the rest of the vehicle.

Yes that helps, thanks! So did it effect drivability?

That’s the kink of info that I was looking for, thanks!

Thanks Dewayne!

My apologies. Dwayne.

I agree with the sentiment that if you going to have a Hemi, it should run respectably! I always said that if I had a Hemi, it better be a ten second real street car to live up to the hype. I can't tell you how many times I was at Mopar car shows at the track and saw stock Hemis blowing rich black exhaust weezing down the track on a 15 second pass ! So much for the Legend! But those were show type cars with owners who could not tune, but it still made me resolve that if I ever got one, it would at least, not be an embarrasment.
My 528 runs solidly in the tens and could certainly run better if it were lightened, my B-body runs 4186 with 1/2 tank and my 225 lbs. While I retained the SS springs, the rest of the suspension is now geared for touring/handling to the detriment of dragstrip performance, my priorities have changed. Where I am going, the nearest strip will be 150 miles away.
Hemi ragtop, I have been where you are and feel your pain, if it is more economical to go with the Edelbrocks, do so. like I said, you cant go wrong having Dwayne rework your MP heads either, 360ish cfm is good for 700 hp or more. You would really need to cam up to take advantage of much more flow. I am running a Bullet solid roller 258/690, a bit small but such sweet street manners, I'm not changing it and you are not much different cam-wise.
Good Luck and keep us informed!
Lee.

Thanks Lee! I will post updated but I am afraid they will be a while coming. The shop is full of engines much more expensive and powerful than mine, and I am in line.