Cooling woes race motor

So i finally got my 520 stroker 440 up and running. It is in a 1970 duster bracket car... I fired it up this last weekend to break the camshaft in and had a few problems maybe yall can give me some pointers on.

Cooling system rundown: small crossflow aluminum radiator w/ dual electric fans, 16psi radiator cap, remote electric water pump (durango remote heater pump), shogun manifold, 5/8 heater hose for lines, temp probe in radiator, normal coolant flow direction not reverse flow.

I know that this type of system isn't for extended run times, but I was only able to get 5 minute runs in at a time before the temp would get up 210 degrees and above. It would start puking when it got to 200 degrees. I overfilled it to start with and i ended up using a clear jug for the overflow to monitor it. I noticed it would puke a quart or so then when it cooled it would suck it back in (everytime). It am pretty sure i got all the air out of the system jacking front and rear of car running pump etc..

Am i doing something wrong here or is thus just how its going to be? I recall seeing restrictor holes in the shogun manifold just cant remember if they were on the top or bottom holes. Is the shogun manifold meant to be used in reverse coolant flow? If so can i just drill the restrictor holes out? I don't really want to run reverse cooling.

Forgot to add the timing is set at 35 degrees btdc and were running it from 1500-2500 rpms up and down. Thank you

how is it all plumbed- where is the pump in relation to radiator and engine? Where is the cap located? The cap needs to be on the suction side of the pump.

I don't think you can drill out the restrictors easily. I think they're located where the fittings are welded so would require some cutting/welding to modify them. I think it's in the top tube.

I'm not familiar with the Durango pump. How much does it flow? Is it wired through a relay so you're getting good power to the pump?

Your questions may answer a whole more here, but I'm curious how 5/8" line(s) figure into this set-up.

The pump is mounted under the radiator on the right frame rail in front of the k-frame. I thought I read somewhere it flowed like 20 gpm. It is set up on a relay. The top inlet of the radiator is plumbed to the cap and then to the top passages on the block, and the bottom outlet of the radiator to the pump and then to the bottom passages on the block. I will try to get some images posted today..

THIS.

what heads are you running? 35 deg seems like a lot of timing for a big bracket engine.
I would use a IR temp gun and test to see if you are getting the same temps out of both heads.

you have run it long enough, what do the plugs look like? Are you idling rich on lean?

Joe

With that little pump and those little lines, I would speculate that there is not enough flow. The heads are way hotter than the radiator. It's boiling in the heads, since it's puking at only 200 degrees in the rad. The boiling point of H20 at 16 psi is 260F. So the heads are at least 60 degrees hotter than the radiator.

This is my first build and experience with something like this so it feels like trial and error at this point. Excuse my ignorance. I bought the car from some people that had deaths in the family. The motor was in pieces and components to put things back were not all complete.. It had the radiator and the shogun manifold and that was all for the cooling system. It has big valve ported 906 iron heads on it. I bumped the timing up to 35 for the cam break in from reading others advice on here. Plugs look good to me tan/gray straps and electrodes with white/ light gray porcelain. My reasoning on the 5/8 hose was the shogun manifold and fittings etc. is only so big so flow would be restricted there anyway. 5/8 is internal diameter of the hose I used..

Hemi Joel I think you are right on with the low flow problem. Think I will try larger lines and pump see if that nets anything. Is there any reason I would need to restrict or keep the welded in restrictors in that shogun manifold? Is there a pump yall would recommend? I seen some around hear using one from Harbor Freight with good success..

[img]<a href="http://imgur.com/sO5OkPN"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/sO5OkPN.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>[/img]

I run the same manifold with a school bus booster pump. Don't get the HF pump, when it heats up it will spin the center out of the rubber impeller. (ask me how I know)(not designed for hot water)

So you can only run 5 mins before it overheats, how long are these bracket races that you plan to be in? I am pretty sure I could run 5 mins without overheating (I run methanol), but I would run out of fuel 1st. seriously, I can't imagine it taking 5 mins of total run time to make a pass and get back to the pits.

How quick can you cool it down after it gets hot?

a couple of pumps
https://www.apartswarehouse.com/Product/Show/503/groco-booster-pump-12-inout

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/50952/10002/-1

Joe

I don't have pictures on my home computer. But I run a Shogun manifold with a Shogun Z water pump. I run "AN" lines close in size to 5/8" inside diameter. I forget what size "AN" lines they are. 35* of timing. My car runs cool and cools down quickly. I run on 112 octane fuel, a little over 14 to 1 compression. I usually stage at 135 to 140*., and cross the traps at 150* ,and at my trailer it is 160* to 165*.

Next week I can get pictures of my set up. I am off to the track in a few minutes, for Friday night racing, and Saturday and sunday points racing.

When I bought my car back in 2004. It used to run hot. It had a Dodge Omni 4 cylinder radiator in it. It used to hit 220 to 240* by the time I hit the return road. I had a custom built radiator, electric fan and shroud built by Be-Cool Radiator, in summer of 2004, Now I have no more cooling problems...

Yeah I don't see it taking 5 mins of run time to make a run and get back to pits.. I just want to be squared away mechanically and expectation wise before I take it out. I don't want to screw it up because of something I could have prevented.

It cools off to 140-150 in 5-10 mins after running it. Which I thought was pretty quick. You guys are awesome thanks a lot!

I would definitely be interested in seeing your setup. Hope you have a good weekend at the track.

A quick review of the pics of what stands out:
1. I don't see any advantage of using 5/8" Line (AN #10) vs a line matching the size of the radiator connections, unless you have a monster pump
2. Your fan shroud is bypassing I would bet 15-20%? of your radiator, not good
3. You have too many/large of an opening on the front side of radiator where it mounts, which lets escape/bypass any moving/pressurized air at speed, not good.

Not sure if any of above would solve your issues, but it does leave a lot on the table

not enough airflow and or not enough water flow or retarded timing or vac leak or not enough radiator or slight combustion leak (into the cooling system).

For sure inadequate cooling system, but I'd cut the oil filter open, and make sure something isn't causing it to get hot. Never hurts to look.

I'm not a fan of those little sirocco style rads. I had one a long time ago, with a small block in the car and it was un-raceable. By the time I drove to the staging lane, pulled up with 50-60 other cars, did a burn out, staged the car, made a run, drove to the ticket shack, then drove to the pits. It would severely overheat.. Back then I fixed that with a stock rad out of a 70's dodge truck. I now have a multiple tube core aluminum rad. I think those rads you have is something like a single tube core at 13" by 20". not enough rad is my Restrictors in the manifold probably don't help either. Could you drill them from the fitting end?

That pump was never designed to flow enough coolant to cool the engine. That was designed as an auxiliary pump to circulate hot coolant through the heater core. My first step would be to replace that pump.

I ran a Omni/Horizon radiator in my SB for
a number of years.. was OK but heated up on
the return road.. on yours the biggest factor
is the small fittings going to and from the
block.. you can change the to copper so they
are smoother on the ID

Like Dartsport540, I ran the ShoGun system on my old car with -10 lines and I could let that car run in the heat of Vegas for a long time. For a bracket car I expect it to sit and run for however long and not have any cooling probs. You go rounds and they start running you back to back.... you gotta be ready. I did run the ShoGun "bilge" pump and my Mirada had a radiator similar to an A body replacement piece. Dodge Dynasty electric fan with shroud.

I used to have one of those Durango pumps at work, but never got a chance to put it in a bucket and see how much fluid it would move. It was noisy, but still worked. I was kind of curious as I've heard of people using them on race cars.

Pics of cooling system. I have ran this system since 2004. Friday night at the track , I had to change the remote water pump. It started getting noisy. I did have another Shogun Z pump in my trailer . Works Good again...

Nice thank you very much.

Check out the stewart EMP inline water pump. One serious bad mofo of a pump. I had a CSR on a hot running motor once. Didn't want to get a bigger radiator, or do much else for that matter. I put one of those emp inlines on and dropped 25 degrees, just from increased water flow.

So instead of screwing around with that scirocco radiatior i went ahead and ordered a lightweight 26"x19" two row dual pass griffin with AN inlet and outlet. For pump i got a allstar 20-25gpm pump and i am going to use -12an lines.

I am going to pull that shogun manifold and drill out the restrictor in it. Should have good enough restriction with the dual pass radiator.. I will just have to come up with a good fan setup for it. Will probably hit up junk yard and find something.

Note, the Dual pass is not a plus for cooling in your application, and if possible, you may want to reconsider, ie, for one, it doubles the radiator water flow restriction vs a single pass, almost like taking two steps forward, and one backwards, IMO

I would like to hear some discussion on that subject. If anyone has input or discussion on dual pass radiators.. Worst case I can return the radiator i have coming. It was a shelf radiator not special made for me. Another reason I chose the dual pass was the inlet outlet would be on the driver side. Which would make things nicer looking and less crowded.