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Torque Converter Questions.

Posted By: Crabra

Torque Converter Questions. - 06/28/17 09:09 PM

I am bracket racing and want to install a 3000 stall torque converter.
My set up is 72 duster with a 318 engine 727 trans and 3.55 8 3/4 suregrip.When the car was built I got a mopar performance 145k converter.
I should not have done that.Car will only rev up to 2000 rpm's at starting line.Can someone please explain the difference in 9,10 and 11 inch converters.I know a 3000 stall would help my ET.Best time now is 15.64 in the 1/4 mile.I have a lockup converter in it now.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/28/17 09:34 PM

How high do you want it to stall?
Based on info provided - 145K and current stall of 2000, your engine is making 190 lbs. ft. Of torque.
Posted By: Crabra

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/28/17 09:36 PM

I want to leave at 3000 rpm.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/28/17 10:47 PM

You would need a converter with a k factor of around 215. Your torque sounds low - what's been done to the engine?
Posted By: Crabra

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/28/17 11:13 PM

Stock bottom end. J heads 188 intake 160 exhaust eddy performer 750 eddy carb.
Posted By: Crabra

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/28/17 11:17 PM

If you understand k factor please explain it.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 12:43 AM

K factor is how we measure converter stall and efficiency and one of the things we use to compare one converter to another. I'm sure you know that as you increase input torque you raise stall speed. Saying you have a 3000 stall (assuming you tested it behind an engine) means nothing to the next guy that has more or less torque. K factor on the other hand is a measure of a particular converter that is found on a convertor dynamometer with a certain input torque level while monitoring temperature, oil pressure and oil flow. A standard 318 appears to be rated at more torque than you are putting out - that's why I asked what was done to the engine. Sounds like you might be down on power. Timing, elevation, engine mods will affect your stall speed.
Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 12:30 PM

Not to high jack this thread, but I sent my 11" Hughes to PTC for tightening. I make 640lb' of torque on an engine dyno, run a 3.54 gear with Gear Vendor in a 4100lb car on the street. I wanted crisper response and less slip on the freeway.
The converter came back with a 250 K factor?
How tight is a factory converter? How high can a K factor be in a non lock up 11"?
Posted By: Spaceman Spiff

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 12:43 PM

Why do you want to leave at 3000rpm?
Stock cam? Headers?
Your engine probably stops making power before 5,000 rpm, a 3,000 isn't going to
help, especially with 3.55 gears and a 318.
What's your MPH? That will help determine how much power you are making.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 02:34 PM

“K” factor: RPM = K × (T^.5)
Posted By: Crabra

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 02:53 PM

Mile per hour in the 1/4 mile anywhere from 86 to 89 mph
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 03:35 PM

K factor is not specific to lockup or non-lockup. As for what factory k factors are - depends on application. Mopar diesel was 95 k from early 90's to 2007, then we went to 105, 115. Old converters in 727 were usually around 145. The new 8 speed is around 175. NAG has two different k's depending on engine. With your torque rating and if truly 250 k you should stall up to 6300+ -
250 k out of an eleven inch sounds pretty stout - what stall are you getting? As you go larger on a converter it's harder to get higher stall. Think large prop versus small on a boat. Larger usually is more efficient than smaller.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 04:43 PM

Old school shoot from the hip analysis.......

-318 with j heads...... Unless a bunch of milling was done, it lost some compression, and now has bigger runners with lower port velocity in the rpm range where the stall is happening. (Depending on what vintage the short block is/which pistons it has, it could easily end up under 8:1cr.)

-750 carb...... Way too big for this application

-cam??

More than likely it would take a tight 10" to be able to get a true 3000rpm flash stall behind that motor....... And even that converter might require a few tweaks to the motor before seeing all of 3000.

Then the question becomes...... Is a 3000 stall converter what that motor combo really needs?
Posted By: Crabra

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 06:34 PM

If carb is too big why is car faster than when I had a 600 eddy carb?
Posted By: Roughbird72

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 07:38 PM

What's your total timing?
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/29/17 08:32 PM

Using the Moroso calculator, 89mph in 1/4 is 18.5 lbs/hp.

So, 189hp @3500lbs.

A 318 can easily make over 250hp, so even if the car combo is far enough off to use up 10% of the available power, that would still put you at 225hp, as it sits in the car.
That would show about 94mph at 3500lbs. These numbers will vary depending where you're racing at, obviously.

Perhaps addressing the apparent low-ish power output might help make the converter act more like you want it to.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 02:06 AM

why is car faster than when I had a 600 eddy carb

Fuel curve closer to what the engine wanted, very common. 750 was less wrong than 600.
Posted By: Hemi ragtop

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 02:06 AM

Sorry, I am not a math guru, explain K factor equasion?
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 02:36 AM

Originally Posted By Hemi ragtop
Sorry, I am not a math guru, explain K factor equasion?
yeah me too, I sucked at algebra.
Posted By: Blusmbl

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 03:13 AM

This is a nice simplified description:

http://kennedysdynotune.com/torque-converter-tech-tips-selection/

Quote:
Labeling a converter as having a specific stall without reference to the motor it is behind is misleading and naive. That stock converter, which stalls at ~1,500rpm behind a stock motor, might stall at 3,000rpm or more behind a blown big block, if it didn’t blow up first! To elaborate a bit: stall speed is not just a function of the converter. It is also a function of engine torque. This can be relatively easily described by defining the “K” factor. K is simply the constant in the equation K = rpm/sqrt{torque}. The equation describes the observed behavior of the converter behind a specific engine. What this allows us to do is determine what the stall speed of a given converter will be if we put it behind a different engine.

For example, if a motor has 400 ft-lbs. of torque and stalls a particular converter at 3,000rpm, K = 3,000/sqrt{400} = 150. Since we know K = 150, we can predict the new stall speed if torque is increased to say 500 ft-lbs by rearranging the equation to rpm = K*sqrt{torque}. In this case, the new stall would be rpm = 150*sqrt{500} = 3350. This formula isn’t perfect. It won’t work if the engines have wildly different torque curve, for example. And it won’t tell if a particular converter will hold together under markedly increased torque. But it gives a decent ballpark estimate and serves to illustrate a basic aspect of torque converter function. For most street and street/strip, you probably want a stall in the 2,500-3,500rpm range. But do not buy an off the shelf converter thinking it will give you the advertised stall unless it has been proven to do so on an identical setup. Speak to the manufacturer first to be sure you are getting what you need for your particular combo.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 03:07 PM

There's no "explanation".
You just do it, like you do sales tax.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 03:08 PM

Ok - so everyone should now have all they need to figure out k factor. For the op - if you are going to continue to race this car - you may want to consider going to a 998/999 trans with the factory low gear set and a production high stall converter with lockup. Dime a dozen on converters - lockup when you want it (using the electronic lockup feature), low gear set to get you off the line. This package should get you a couple tenths easy. It will all bolt in - just need to change the prop shaft length.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Torque Converter Questions. - 06/30/17 04:34 PM

This is an important aspect, but not always talked about with regard to k factor:
Quote:
This formula isn’t perfect. It won’t work if the engines have wildly different torque curve, for example.


In order for the k factor to be able to predict how a converter will respond to two different combos that have different amounts of peak tq, the peaks would have to be occurring at very similar rpm's.

For example, if one motor had 425ft/lbs peak at 3200 rpm, and another had 525ft/lbs peak at 4800rpm...... Depending on the converter, and what the lower end of the power curve looks like on the 525 combo....... It could actually end up having less stall than the 425 combo.

If the converter was only 3000 stall behind the 425 combo, and the shape of the lower end of the curve for the 525 combo was showing it made less tq at 3000 than the 425 combo...... the converter would have less stall behind it.

So, in order to be able to effectively use the k factor to predict the stall change resulting from a motor change, you need to compare the tq output of the two motors at near stall speed.
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