Chinese head choice for Blown/Turbo Smallblock

Ive been looking at ebay heads for about a month.
Victors seem to be a little big and very pricey.
Speedmaster 190cc heads would be perfect but Ive read quality is sketchy.
After reading the below thread It appears the promaxx heads are about perfect for my application BUT the exhaust flow #'s leave me feeling congested. (pun intended)

board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2114443/1.html

What does bell shape mean when increasing exhaust flow?
Can I do this myself?

Widen the floor?
Widen the runner?
Raise the roof?
Deshroud chamber?
Radius valve head?

Would those easy procedures do the trick or is it something more complex.

This just about maxx's out my budget.
http://www.jegs.com/i/ProMaxx-Performance/723/9360/10002/-1

So far for the bottom end Ive got diamond dish pistons, eagle rods, TS 1/16 rings, main studs, Comp blower cam with .512 lift/114lsa and may get a girdle.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/371660576728
$179

Ill also have to buy rockers and maybe pushrods but that's it.

Why not look at the edelbrock rpm heads the cost is the same as the over sea heads

Appears the ProMaxx 9360's are $200 less and according to Pittsburghracer they flow 20cfm more.

I guess I could go with the EQ Iron heads but they are like $500 ea, heavy, and I'd have to do lots of porting I assume to match the ProMaxx heads.

I'm lost on all this but have $1400 burning a hole in my pocket.
LOL

My chinese knockoff mag iron heads, the intake holes are way higher than normal EQ heads. Might also be porosity issues (blowing combustion into the cooling system) tho in fairness that might be my head gasket fiasco (ain't got to the bottom of it yet). they were supposed to be legit EQ heads & I would put his dealer name out there but the last time I did it got deleted.

The ProMaxx heads jumped "way up" in price since my Friend bought them for 1050.00 I would have to think twice about buying them now but we are set pretty good with lots of Edelbrock heads. LOL. They do offer CNC'd heads now too. (ProMaxx)

So being $300 more than a couple years ago they are not worth that?
You've played with many of these heads. Which do you think would be best run close to ootb?

I have a set of factory magnums in hand but they would need the full workup and I'm not sure I have a week to spare.
And really no way to verify what I've done is legit except for track mph.
This is about all the time I had to work on the project this weekend because of POTTY time/baby sitting.

I personally would not run ant head out of the box but its nice being able to do your own work. An Edelbrock head out of the box is now a piece of CRAP!!!!!!!!! After checking out the ProMaxx heads I'm betting I could have a set ready to both on in under 2 hours time checking things over, (guides, valve job, spring pressure< ect) I didn't check every guide or spring pressures for my Friend as it was a quick, fast FREE-be. Quality and flow numbers were both better than the new set of Edelbrock heads I have sitting here for a project of mine.

I've been searching but cannot find promaxx heads for sbm that are cnc'd.
Only the 190cc procomps which cost $600+ more than the standard 171cc heads.

Got a link?

It's insane how cheap these BB mopar heads are at 210cc's.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Chrysler-B...d-/291722416620

And even these @265cc's. Dang.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Renegade-11983B-...r-/281836875265

I guess they aren't any good if your not a machinist though.
Hmmmmm

Makes me want to ditch the sb and stuff my forged 440 crank into my 400 block.

I gotta finish this task though so after tuning and having some fun I can give the sb to my 14yo son.

Uugh.

I'm about to add these dad gum things to my cart and hope for the best.

http://www.jegs.com/i/ProMaxx-Performance/723/93605/10002/-1

I have had some personal PM's and emails because of my post and some have been in touch with Jason at ProMaxx. If they want to step into the conversation they can provide more info. This is a part of one of the PM's.


""We have multiple spring options. Cnc heads are 185cc runner looking at $1400 loaded for as cast, and $1900 loaded for cnc ported.


I also have flow charts but like I said they were from private PM's so I don't feel at ease posting them. If in dought call and ask for Jason at ProMaxx. They are kinda out of my price range right now and my next purchase will probably be a set of W7's for an R block I bought and a set of the new Victor heads.

Here's a link to my old post.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2113121/1.html

Flow charts and CFM don't mean the same with boost.

,,

Why is that?
It would seem to just amplify the efficiency.
I would also assume that slightly bigger and lazier port wouldnt effect low end as much with artificial velocity.

I want to call Promaxx tomorrow and see if they would cnc the exhaust only.

STOCK Ls1 heads flow 238/203 @600. with 205cc port volume.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1012-ultimate-chevrolet-ls-cylinder-head-test/

Works pretty good under boost.
1000+ HP to the tires.

Bone stock heads, rods, pistons etc.



Me thinks the 190cc Speedmasters or 185cc ProMaxx may not be too big for a 367cu mopar with blower.

For a turbo car, I would look at getting bare heads and having a head specialist install seats and valve that can handle the higher temperatures the turbo cars generate. Might also want to plumb a cooling line between the center exhaust ports.

Still dreaming and searching>

Hmmmmmmm
Anyone have flow #'s for these?

So your saying for a turbo application that these may be better?
Stronger and more reliable.

Jason at Promaxx emailed me the two flow charts on the Mopar SB heads. Here they are for reference.

More boost will make up for poor head flow... but it doesn't mean more headflow won't make more power. As an example I went 10.08@136 on home ported iron heads at 20psi. I've been 9.80's@136mph on 17~18psi with CNC ported Eddy's with basically the same combo. A bit of that ET is 60ft, but you can see that it took less boost to go the same MPH.

Reading through this thread, I don't see anywhere that you've stated what your goals are for this project. I assume by your screenname that you're going procharged? If so how big of a blower, and how big is the motor it's going on?

If you're looking for budget 600hp, you don't need a whole lot of head. If you want 2000hp that's a different story.

General rule of thumb #1, If the blower is big enough, and you have enough fuel octane to run some decent boost... you can definitely err on the small side with the head and get away with it.

General rule of thumb #2, If the blower/turbo is small... or you're fuel quality limited... it would be wise to get as much out of the motor as you can N/A with your head choice.

Very much appreciated for those flow files.
Thankyou.

My lust for flow says buy the 185's.
My wallet says to buy the 171's.

I do not see the ported versions online for sale from someplace like Jegs or Ebay as my paypal credit could easily change my mind.

I can't seem to find ProMaxx website.
What is their phone #?

Thanks for posting those up for the guys. I didn't want to grab credit for your work.

Pro:
I found a link on FB. Jason is who sent me the files.
https://www.facebook.com/PromaxxPerformance/

Pitts:
No problem. I would not have minded at all.

Todd Marsh is doing a lot with the bigblock versions of these heads. It is important to understand that the ProMaxx and the Sidewinder bigblock heads come out of the same molds in the same factory. They are given names by whoever is selling them.
http://www.mopartsracing.com/tmc/ Possibly the same for smallblock heads.

The "I have heard" monster is lurking in this thread. The newest version of ProComp also known as Speedmaster heads has received good reviews from Pittburghracer and the guy who used to call himself Dr. J, Bryce Mulvey. Possibly working with Bryce the PCheads have more meat in the short turn so the short turn radius can be worked on more without hitting water. I suspect that is what the heads pictured above are.

R.

Whoa whoa WHOA. I never gave Procomp or Speedmaster good reviews. I never even had a set in my hands (and NEVER will) ProMAXX yes I have in in my hands and on my Flowbench and from what I've seen, I LIKE. They are 10 times nicer than Edelbrock heads and after talking to Mark at ProMaxx I would buy a set tomorrow over an Edelbrock heads if I needed a set. But I don't. I will never buy a procomp now called Speedmaster head. I would continue to FIX Edelbrock heads if it came to that. I can do them in my sleep. LOL

I am not recommending a type/brand/model of head, just recommending upgrading the materials/quality of the seats and valves.
It depends on what your boost and temps will be.
The heads you are looking at might be OK for 7 lbs of boost, but how will you know? What happens if you drop a valve seat or burn a valve. I'm saying your application may be beyond what the machining and components of the heads are designed for (regardless of price.)

Here is what I'm doing.
Building a P600B (675hp max potential) blown sb just because I have the short block parts already.

After watching the latest RoadKill garage episode I was convinced to get the best heads I could afford.

This engine will go in my 71ply B body to start.
Later I will put it in my daily driver 73 Dart swinger.

My heart would really like to be building my BB 431/451 Stroker as I know it has a stronger bottom end than the sb.

So basically I want to push the sb to max power possible out of a stock block.
Even if I have to buy this.
http://www.vsracing.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=1375



I think my biggest hurdle will be a trans that can handle the power without breaking the bank.

Kinda stinks I can buy a used Lsx and 4L80e for $1500ish with accessories and not have to worry about any of this. 900hp potential easy.
Drop in, tune, and go.

I hope it is not a cast crank engine. My neighbor (about 2 blocks from my house) has/had a 360 stroker with a 6-71 blower that broke the cast stroker crank and destroyed the 360 block. New engine has a forged crank, and a custom crank pulley support? Not exactly what the term would be for the support, but it has a bracket that connects to the front of the block and has a bearing in front of the crank pulley to support the front crank/pulley assembly. It's a cool piece.

I haven't built a boosted engine, but was thinking of doing the 6.1L Hemi and was reading about the valve seats falling out?
And after I broke the intake valve on the B1-B/S heads, I replaced them with Manley Severe Duty valves which can also take higher temperatures than standard stainless valves.

I wouldn't worry about a cast 360 crank at 675hp... mine has a cast crank in it (has never even been turned) and makes somewhere in the 850hp range.

Obviously there is some difference between the blower and the turbo... but if mine will make 850hp, your's can make 675hp.

If you're talking 100% stock short block... you'd be pushing it REAL hard to go to 675hp. I'd say 500~550hp on cast pistons with a good tune is about the limit (we're just about finished with a 100% stock magnum 318 with a 69mm turbo going in a Demon... so we'll see).

If you're talking about main studs, rod bolts, and forged pistons... you should be able to make 675hp as long as the tuneup is good, and you have the proper fuel for the boost numbers you're talking about.

Mine with a stock 1/2 filled block, stock crank, main studs, ARP rod bolts, and off the shelf forged pistons made over 700hp. That was the point I put good rods and better pistons in it.

My guess is you'd be able to max that blower with a good intercooler and good fuel before it ever broke the block. Especially if it's partial filled.

Wow, great news from the voice of experience. Always somebody busting through the glass ceiling.

I was looking into partial filling my block 15yrs ago before I took a hiatus from muscle cars.

So you are saying filling is much more important than a girdle as long as studs are used?

As stated earlier I do have diamond forged pistons, the cheezy version of eagle rods, ARP main studs were acquired recently, etc.
Bought this stuff over a decade ago.




Going to take my CAST crank to get it turned down to 2.1 rod throws and .010 off the mains to clean it up.


I'm head hunting now.
Having trouble deciding on the 171cc or 185-190cc heads. Going back and forth.

I know for a fact I will buy the victor equivalents when I build my BB.
265cc range.
Got a forged crank for it already and chevy rods are cheap. Biggest durability expense will be the pistons I"d suppose.

Personally I'd pass on a cast crank. Even our low powered iron head 360 combo developed cracks in the factory cast piece. Glad we caught it. Forged piece in it now.

got yourself in some pretty good company there John

Ha, Never say never.
What's your address?

Unlisted. LOL

I'm shopping around for heads too, and found this place.

PIE Performance Injection Equipment


I can't decide on iron or aluminum though.

My apologies to Pittsburgracer. I am going to have to look back to see how I could have come to that mistaken conclusion.

R.

Every dog has it's day....it's just not today

Yup. It was the Promaxx smallblock heads he was all over.

MoparBilly and Streetwize have said they're happy with the Airwolf versions of the ProComp heads they are running.

The horror stories have abated and its time to look at the ProComps especially for other engines with little head choice, like Oldsmobiles.

R.

No big deal but I've heard some horror stories about ProCOMP, (Speedmaster) and wouldn't take the risk. Doctor J or whatever his name was has disappeared. lol

Those do look like some nice iron heads for blown applications.
After all these years being out of the game I want something shiny, and LIGHT.

Also something I can more easily repair when it blows up. lol

My point was that higher CFM isn't a reliable indicator of superior boosted flow. The infamous 2JZ-GTE Supra factory twin turbo head needs no mods, not even a valve job, to produce 700 hp from 183" on high boost. The extremely similar (by flow and mean cross-sectional area) RB26, 7M, etc. are down by hundreds of hp under the same conditions.
Why is the GTE head so superior? Toyota doesn't know, the port locations were compromised to allow larger water jackets (the N/A GE head has better ports, but only NA). It was an accident.

This is sort of the point I was questioning. With a boosted engine, it may be of importance to remove heat from the valves with wider seat margins on the valve job, and run valve seats that conduct heat better than to chase a few extra CFM with a narrow seat margin valve job, and inexpensive iron valve seats in the heads?

I think so, but how much will it cost (CU/BE = $$$) and what's it worth???
I might also mention the fact that the JZ is an iron block which needs almost no attention at these same 700 HP level, and that many serious boosted LS engines are 4.9 and 5.3 iron blocks (giving up displacement, bore size, and port flow for solid base).
There appears to be no reliable way to determine in advance how much block rigidity (and ring seal) is lost with an alloy block. AFAIK all those 2,000 HP Supra engines use the original 1992 280 HP block...

,,That is very interesting and I did not know that.
I don't keep up with Japanese performance.
Id suspect it has something to do with the lack of low lift exhaust flow, port velocity, and cam profile.

Is this a race car build or street car?

He talks some about the difference in blowers and turbos here.

Camshaft and heads




Is bigger always better??

I would like to push the stock 76' block to the limit with the parts I have using forced induction. Blower first, then turbo.

My guess is 7-800whp. But I don't know.
Get the thing running with the procharger and 600 tire.
Then add a turbo and turn it up.

Yes, I may have to use a 4l80e and ford rear but I'll cross that road when I get to it.

Heads first.

I've gotten a few emails from Todd Marsh.
Tried calling him yesterday and couldn't connect. Got a couple more questions about what I actually get for my $$ and which Level I'd like to go with.

Also have one more lead to check on and then it's whip out the card time.

My main concern is getting the exhaust flow maximized first using the blower.
Then if I have to send the heads back to have the intakes done later that is ok too.

With the larger exhaust flow I may have to get the valve angles changed to decrease low lift flow or compensate for the increased flow on exhaust side with the cam once the turbo goes on.

Heck, I'm overthinking this as usual.
Being I want aluminum, no reason in particular, I just need to buy some dang heads bolt em on and boost it.

I know for sure a cam swap will take place with the turbo as the current setup is for a blower. It has longer exhaust duration which aint too snappy with a turbo.......

When I was working in Japan, I saw tons of 2JZ cars tuned along with tons of RB26 cars, many running the same single turbo kits, and there never was "hundreds" of horsepower between those engines when running similar setups..,The 2JZ and the RB26 almost have identical power curves, its just shifted downward in the RPM band because of the added stroke, the 2JZ just acts like an RB with a stroker crank. There are lots of bone stock RB26's over 700rwhp running around Japan, the guy I worked with over there had an RB26 Stagea wagon with a HKS T51r, 750rwhp on an unopened N1 Rb26 motor..

I guess it's time for a 2JZ powered 73 Dart to hit the streets............
NOT

LOL

No not at all, but it's a good path to follow to build a turbo small block... I met a guy over there about 10 years ago that was doing cylinder head work for all out 2jz/Rb/Sr turbo motor, I remember him saying that as you dropped compression for turbo use, you had to go to work on the exhaust side more, as the motor mass flow rate increase, and motors are highly intake biased to start with.
I was more interested in Rotary when I was over there, and I met a lot of people who are/were pretty famous in the import circles, I kinda wish I paid more attention to the piston motor side of it now, those guys spend tons of time on R&D testing...

I agree,
The best bet is to enlist the help of those who are doing it in a big way.
I'm sure the guy I bought my supercharger from 15+ years ago can help.

He's still in business and I see lots of his customers make boatloads of power.
I just don't want to spend boatloads of cash. ;-)

The head selection and quality that is available today is insane compared to 20 yrs ago.

Based on the builds I audited, the RB26 etc. comes close to 2JZ... except for the amount of prep.
The RB has larger valves, minor dome tweaks, more cam duration, larger intake plenum, blah.
The JZ is stock X stock X stock X stock, blah.
Heads up, stock engine with zero zero mods except for boost, the JZ walks away.

I don't know about that, it depends on the builder/tuner. There is way more RB knowledge and experience in Japan then there is elsewhere, just like the rotary. It's blasphemy in north America to talk about 400+ rwhp on pump gas from a rotary, while over there it had been common place to go past 500 rwhp on straight pump gas since the late 80's all on stock parts, without moronic mods like dowel pinning and depleted uranium apex seals.

Which engine is beside the point, which is pretty simple: the head with the better CFM flow may do something, nothing, or less than nothing when boosted, and there's no reliable way to predict this except empirically: what worked before will work again.
Another comparison: the LSX cathedral head (smaller port, now considered obsolete vs. the rectangle) appears not to matter at all in a small bore engine such as the 4.9 liter.
If I had to draw a conclusion: don't experiment with boost on the basis of comparative NA flow or dyno results.

So your saying add boost and see what happens.
Then open up the flow through the engine and see what happens.

If the right things don't happen, call someone who has made it happen.

I re-read your whole thread, going blower is different than going turbo, since your are going blower, and your HP goals aren't that crazy, you should be able to do it without something too exotic bolted onto the block. Other than flows, what are your piston specs for CR with what size chamber? Thats going to dictate your choice as well.

I will change cams and turbo it after I max out the blower.

Currently has
Diamonds with 5cc dish.
Cam is 230/240 504/504 114lsa
3.58 stroke
6.125 rod length
Head gasket thickness will be determined after I pick heads.
Have stock magnums but I'm giving those to my 14yo son for his mild 318 build.

He gets the engine I'm building after he drives one year.

Sent an email to SDCE so depending on their response I will buy from them or Todd at Marsh Performance.

I see Jason @ Promaxx used Headbytes to help them do R n D on their head port design/CnC program a couple years ago.

Wonder what happen to Tony Seizemore.

You should watch the engine masters camshaft episode, its got some good advice on cylinder heads, and also the boost episode....

I've watched all of those a couple times, what did I miss? (pertinent points)

I was very surprised by the "fan" episode.
Never installing my viscous unit again, want to buy it? LOL

Just watched the one with 5/64 or 1.2mm thin piston rings on youtube.
Steve Bruhle' (sp) picked the power increase to the HP and had never done the test before. Hmmmmm

My takeaways from the videos are most likely the obvious to you, buy the best possible head you can, and the off the shelf edelbrock heads for the SB mopar need help, it doesn't even breath that well for a stock displacement motor, let alone a stroker, the Chev has it easy when it comes to heads..And of course the heads are key to the motor, the only real difference between the small blocks they compared was the heads, and the ones on the Chev breathe better, enough that they could use all their cam effectively..
Gen 3 is so tempting, big flow in bone stock form...

2017 Engine masters Challenge had a spec blower catagory for newer engine like the gen III hemi, but I did not see any entries for the blower catagory?

going blower is different than going turbo
^that

Switching from one boost method to another (generally, and assuming the same boost level) keeps a few things, such as:
1. intake manifold (probably)
2. ignition (but not the actual advance or curve)
3. oil system (except as needed for turbo supply/drain)
4. rods, pistons including CR (no, everyone doesn't agree)
5. crank
6. main caps
7. block
8. head bolts/stud quality

But a few things will definitely change:
1. cam duration, split, lobe height
2. head flow
3. in/ex flow bias
4. the entire exhaust system, including primary tube diameter
5. rocker in/ex bias
6. stall speed

There will also be differences between centrifugal (Vortech, Pro Charger) and positive (GMC, Kobelco, Autorotor, Sprintex), especially stall speed

With turbo:
cam? equal or less exhaust duration?
Head flow? Increase intake to match exhaust?
Exhaust? Hapel makes over 1000hp with 2.5" hot side and straight dump out of turbo
Flow bias?
Rockers? 1.6 intake/1.5 exhaust?
stall? Have to deal with what I got. NOS off line if need be.

How far off am I by guessing

I looked at a set of Pro comp small block heads just today at a guys shop whom I know. They were actually pretty nice castings. WAY better than the last Edelbrock junk I looked at! Only real issues was the valve spring height and the VJ was a bit inconsistent. A quick VJ and they went 245 @ .500, 248 @ .600. Just an FYI...

When I buy Big Block heads they will most likely be Speedmasters.
265cc versions are 400 a pop bare.
210cc versions I've seen for right at 300ea. bare.


Blowing my wod on these sb heads though.
Left Todd a message telling him I decided to go full workup on the exhaust side of the heads.
Wait another week and I may give in and go all out on both sides. LOL

I really, really don't need to though if I'd just pony up $500 for a turbo instead of the supercharger.

Why else did I pay $599 for a Chinese Mig/tig/arc combo welder a few month's ago, and now it sits?
This one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIG-180-Amp-Weld...g-/152420938829

I did order these a couple days ago for my 73 Ford F100 and both have shipped......
Sniper EFI master kit and Fi-tech fuel command center(800hp fuel flow).
I plan to turbo it in the next couple years.

Only cost $200 more for the sniper which is good to 650hp and power adder/ignition control ready instead of the 400hp version of Fi-tech which can't be upgraded according to their tech line.

Don't be totally anti overlap when you go turbo...

True, it's the intake part of OL that hurts, Vizard has recommended some really short intake durations with none.

Turbine sizing will play a big part in camshaft pick.. A guy from TF racing said to me once, remember that your engine is naturally aspirated until the turbo supplies more air than the engine can use..

I wonder what opening up the throat, blending the seats, and de-shrouding/blending the combustion chamber would net?

Simple mods for anyone.

Be VERY careful opening the throat. Its a percentage of the valve size to keep the VENTURI EFFECT and if opened to big can trash a set of heads real quick.


google it.


http://sciphile.org/lessons/bernoullis-principle-and-venturi-tube

Couple notes on many of the above posts.

When we're talking ideal blower cam, vs. ideal turbo cam... it's not to say that the same can't work pretty well for both. A lot of the turbo cam has to do with the exhaust turbine wheel size, the A/R ratio of the housing, and foot print (T4/T6). So it's hard to just speak in generalitys to know if you have a "good turbo cam". My first custom turbo cam had 4 degree's less exhaust duration then intake. My second custom turbo cam has 5 more degree's exhaust then intake. Just different school's of thought on what works, from two different people.

What's funny is the cam he has listed above is not all that far off from my custom turbo grind. (Same intake duration, 5 deg. of exhaust, and 2 degree's of lobe sep.) I would NEVER spend the money on a new turbo cam if I already had that in possession in a blower motor that was being converted. If you were building a heads up world record competing machine... then yes... worry about it. If you're just trying to make a bunch of boosted power... then you're in the ball park.

As for the heads, remember that a boosted motor deals with a lot higher pressure ratios then a N/A head. Both pressure coming in the intake, and pressures to help the exhaust side out. Now a turbo motor really gets plugged up with the turbine itself, so making a killer exhaust port really isn't a big concern because it's not your bottle neck. The blower motor can get it out and benefit from a good exhaust port.

A good port speed 300cfm head will make LESS power then a lazy port speed 300cfm head when both are boosted (within reason of course). But that is because the airspeed is through the roof on the small port when you throw a bunch of boost at it and gets choked up. The lazy port will get the airspeed more in line where it should be when you throw boost at it.

My motor has a 230@.050" / .540 cam in it. Literally the lower I shift it... the quicker the car is. Even though it has CNC ported EDDY heads on it that flow 300cfm, they were designed for N/A with good port speed, and just don't want to go a lot of RPM. I have the shift light set around 5800rpm on my car. Any lower then that and the converter flash just keeps the light on the entire run... LOL

The bottom line is... you're thinking into this way too much. Buy a cheap set of heads... put good valves in it so they don't get warped/beat up, and if you're not happy with the performance on the first day... just turn the knob up... a good sized turbo will break that block no problem... what do you care if the motor comes apart at 25psi or 30psi. Either way it's probably going to ruin the set of heads no matter how much you pay for them.

Air speed goes down with boost. Air speed is highest with less density. Intake to exhaust pressure ratios are what you base overlap on. Duration is defined by operating range(rpm)

I talked to Todd again today.
I'm going full port work on exhaust.

Off Topic:
Didnt know but he can get a turner from mopar for a decent price that lets us tune Gen 3's
kinda like the chevy guys tune ls engines.

That throws a wrench in my next build which was going to be a big block. lol

Back on topic:
What about this quote?

Some may question why you would want to spend the cash for porting when the supercharger can just use pressure to feed the same amount of air into the engine. The simple answer is that the amount of air moved by a supercharger is usually measured in pounds per square inch (psi) of boost. But this boost number is actually an indication of resistance to flow. By reducing the restriction to the inlet side by porting the heads, this immediately reduces the restriction to flow. This increases the volume of air the engine can ingest and power improves while at the same time reducing the actual boost in the manifold. Plus, reducing the boost demands on the supercharger also reduces the amount of work the supercharger has to produce, which reduces heat. The net effect is that moving 500 pounds per hour (lb/hr) of air at 10 psi requires less work than moving the same 500 lb/hr at 18 psi. The net result is more power.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.hotrod.com/articles/blown-gen-iii-hemi-centrifugal-wind/amp/

Thanks for the link.

I was only talking about blending the sharp edge into runner and into seat.
Not really reshaping or re-sizing much being the heads are pretty good it appears ootb.

BTW, I was studying all that stuff back when I was building a home made flow bench.

Had a guy from russia make me a script to calculate flow rates with a manometer.

dude, I had forgot all about doing that!!!!!

I agree obviously less dense air at the same pressure would have higher airspeed (fluid is "thinner").

But in the case of boost I don't really see it. I mean even a simple example of blowing out birthday candles. Purse your lips and blow softly doesn't get much airspeed, but push hard with your lungs/diaphragm and obviously the airspeed picks up. Bigger pressure differential = more air speed. Density and airspeed are not inversly proportional. In turbos it's multiplied together to get mass flow right? Density x speed = mass air flow rate.





The quote above is absolutely true. Like I mentioned before... when I had home ported 308 iron heads on mine vs. the CNC ported EDDY's, it took LESS boost with the eddy's to make the same power. That totally supports what was written above.... and if you were trying to optimize a world record holder on a blower/turbo limited class it would make sense.


In the case of your undersized little blower... the head will matter. No doubt. If you're interested in getting every last hp out of it... the porting will count.

But, In the case of a properly sized blower/turbo... there is no reason to spend money on the head.

I'll share some real world results on how boost is so much more powerful of a tool then anything. My buddy ran my car the last time we had it out after I had made some passes on a test and tune night. I had run the car hard at 23psi of boost. He hadn't had any time in the car so we started him off slow. Turned the turbo down to ~7psi so he could get used to driving/shifting the push button.

The difference between 7psi and 23psi was 12.40@110 to 9.55@142mph Same night, same track, same head, same cam, just add boost... for free.

My point is... if you took the money you're spending on porting the heads, and put it toward the turbo... you're going to be WAY further ahead bang for the buck. Scrap that little blower project, and just put the proper turbo on it from the start (or even proper sized blower... either one would work)... You'll be WAY happier with the results for the money, rather then spending it on porting.

I agree obviously less dense air at the same pressure would have higher airspeed (fluid is "thinner").

But in the case of boost I don't really see it. I mean even a simple example of blowing out birthday candles. Purse your lips and blow softly doesn't get much airspeed, but push hard with your lungs/diaphragm and obviously the airspeed picks up. Bigger pressure differential = more air speed. Density and airspeed are not inversly proportional. In turbos it's multiplied together to get mass flow right? Density x speed = mass air flow rate.

I will use your car as my example...
Where is the pressure differential? Your exhaust pressure is higher than your intake pressure, so the combustion chamber never "sees" this blowing effect as your simplified example suggests. A turbo merely changes charge density. There is no "positive" change in air speed with increased boost pressure.

Density and air speed are not linearly proportional, but, given a fixed area of flow, have direct effects on each other. The more contact surface/flow area, the greater the effect.

Your mass flow equation is leaving out quite a few more details as it relates to what I was describing. I believe you are equating compressor map math to port speed. It's not that simple. Compressor maps are basically telling you the efficiency of the wheel as a centrifuge(speed in rpm) as it relates to inlet mass.

Yes, a bit off topic, but not really.

And I whole heartedly agree with you in your advice to O.P. Much better off cash wise spending the budget on the turbo than on heads.

I mostly agree.
I've been thinking more and more about going straight to the turbo route and what you say makes sense. Would also make me some cents too.

I've already committed to the sidewinder heads and the port work.
I'm not going to go back on my word even if he doesn't have the heads quite yet from the manufacture. Told the guy I wanted a pair ported, that's what I'm going to get if he is able and willing.

Just think. In 20 yrs when I'm sitting at some car show with my road kill I can say..... "These heads were ported by a Daytona 500 winning engine builder"

My next option is to forgo the blower. I can give it to my son for whom we are building a magnum headed 318. Would be about perfect for that motor. He still has to drive it a while without it so he doesn't get into trouble right out of the box. He's only 14 but will have his permit in 6 months.

I've got my eye on the billet 78/75 from VS racing. Right at $500.
That's cheap.
Dudes with LS motors are laying down close to 800hp at the tire with that turbo.
They also just released an 80mm too.

The more I think about these Chinese Sidewinders, the more I like the idea of getting them.

Now, If I hadn't bought the box of toys (diamond pistons/TS rings/rods/etc.) 15yrs ago we would be talking about BIG BLOCK heads in this thread instead.

You know the saying.....chasing good money after bad. ;-)

I did buy a single bare Big Block 210cc procomp head off a guy on ebay for $120 + $34 shipping. He accepted offer.

[img]https://goo.gl/photos/qtBwY9Ak95PvnsM46[/img]

Lets see if it actually arrives.
Gonna use it to do some practice porting and possibly cut it up with the band saw.

Are those chinese turbos? The Chinese ones that went through the rotary world, turned out to be total garbage...
I wanted to add this, in regards to overlap, the most power I ever made with a rotary was running a port with huge overlap, a bridgeport is like runner cam with 300 deg at .50...Works great with a big turbine wheel.
I got the parts in for my next 2 rotor, its peripheral port turbo motor, in effect the intake and the exhaust never close. Its really interesting, the intakes are milled in, but the exhaust is bone stock, because Mazda incorporates an anti-reversion step in the exhaust port for turbo motors... Most rotary builders grind it out, not having the faintest of clues of why its there or what its for, but they see it as flow restriction so out it goes, and the power band gets cut down..
You've given me some inspiration though, when i am done moving house and shop at the end of summer, I am going to embark on a twin turbo D-150 build with a big block...

HAHA
Ive got a few big blocks laying around.
Mopower for my ford f100?
Id like to stick the turbo in the bed and use a scavenge pump to send the oil back to the pan.

Chinese turbos have stepped up their game JUST LIKE THE CYLINDER HEAD castings have done.

Custom orders from people who know what they are doing bringing them to the forefront.

Look what came in the mail yesterday.
Procomp BB head, the one I paid $120 for off ebay.
I'm gonna have some fun with this one.


Spark plug boss is sticking way out into the chamber with super sharp edges.



Sure looks pretty.



Very sharp short side turns both intake and exhaust.



At least they barely touched the runners with a carbide and didn't touch the bowls at all. Make it easier to blend for the DIYer.




Last one.

Speaking of china.

I ordered this stuff for my SB in the weeee hrs of the morning.

that head looks pretty interesting ! please keep us up to date with your work on that. those look like something i can afford to play with on my own after i pay the docs and hospital every month. what kind of torque [which i am mainly interested in, letting hp fall where it may] and hp are you looking at achieving, and what application ?

Hey I got a free shirt when I bought 3500.00 worth of nitrous stuff two years ago. At least I got some use out of the shirt. By time I get my car running with the nitrous I will have the shirt worn out. Lol

Does any one know if there is a Chinese version
of a alum W-2 head.... the only alum W-2 that I
know of is from Indy at over $2000

Hahaha,
that's funny.
sounds like a few of my projects over the years.


I talked to Todd again today. He has the heads in.
I chose to step it up.
Going for the $1000 full port workup from his head guru over at Flow Tech 2 on fb.

I will have a couple serious questions to pose to a few of you that can make a stockish shortblock stay together at higher HP levels.
Might be getting myself in a little deep with all these new parts.

Guess I need to make a new thread for that.

Also, a few pics don't do justice to the speedmaster head.
I'll have to make a video.

One thing I noticed the $260 bare ebay version looks like straight plug and these are angled.
Also the ones off ebay do not have any intake/exhaust entrance port work done to them. Not even sure what I bought for $120.

The guy said he has had the head for a year supposedly.
Maybe it is an older version of the procomp?????

Need to take some measurements of seats and cc the runners.

I was planning to get some chinese heads, blend the bowls, match intake, and install the P600b procharger.
Looking for 500-600hp

Now I've got these 300/230cfm ish heads coming down the pipe along with a 78/75 billet T4 96.ar which I've seen on Youtube make 750whp.

So I have no idea. 650-700whp?
All depends on what transmission I end up with. Lock up or not.
And whether or not it will stay together.

Hmmmmm,

I just checked the description and the Guy I bought the BB chrysler head from said this was the exact item
he bought a year ago.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Chrysler-BB-361-440-210cc-70cc-Straight-Plug-Aluminum-Wedge-Cylinder-Head-/291722416620?hash=item43ec02d1ec:g:vooAAOSwuspY-brS&vxp=mtr

are you building a small or Big block ?

Small block, Diamond dish pistons, eagle rods, TS piston rings, main studs, and
stock cast crank balanced for new parts.
Did a calculation yesterday of my bobweight and came up with 1923grams.

We'll see how far off I am when I get it back from the balance shop.

Found the proper head description after taking some measurements.
This is actually the link.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/351582057596
Angled plug head. 210cc/70cc


Weird thing is it says 2.10/1.81 valve size.
Im measuring 2.07ish/1.78

May have to buy me a propper sized set of these. 😳
https://www.ebay.com/itm/322162725680


What is the advantage/disadvantage of angled or straight plugs?

I'd like to one day use my stock 68-70 hp manifolds flipped for a TT setup.
Guess I need to run down and grab them to see if it's feesable.

Thanks for all the positive input from dizuster and others for this project.
I just re-read this thread and there is a lot of good info I breezed by the first time through.

Very Inspiring!!

Angle or straight plug?

The first time I heard of this was in the early '70s when the Trans-Am series was big and American V8s were racing in camaros and firebirds and mustangs. There was a lot of factory support and people like Smokey Yunick consulted with the factories, so there was a lot of dyno work done. One of the areas being looked into was the combustion chamber. I don't know if it was always known, but there was power to be gained by moving the spark plug closer to the exhaust valve. Given the layout of the smallblock chevy, the only way to get the plug closer to the exhaust valve was to put the plugs in at an angle. People were actually machining cast iron plugs to press or furnace braze into the plug hole, then drilling a new plug hole with a milling machine. I think the angle plug was worth about 25hp on a 5 liter chevy. At some point chevy high perf heads were available over the counter with angled plugs.

How this applies to Mopar heads I don't know. Smallblocks already have angled plugs. Bigblocks were designed with straight plugs. When Edelbrock brought out their head the plugs were angled. While this probably made a power improvement, it also made some clearance problems when used with headers designed for straight plugs. Some in the Mopar community breathed a sigh of relief when MP's version of the Edelbrock head came with straight plugs.

R.

Did a quick video on the angled plug head for use with stock
68-70 HP manifolds.
Not gonna work.

Criepy's, no sound,
first time to add video directly from youtube app.
That didn't work either.




Made another WITH SOUND.

Here is a port/casting overview of the speedmaster Chinese 210cc angled plug head.
Closer look.

This guy is talking about a 200cc ProMaxx heads top quality combustion chamber design. (chevy)

It looks about the same as the above Speedmaster to me.
Nothing impeding the flow straight out of the valves other than a very small ridge, plug hole protrusion, and possible deshrouding depending on head gasket size.

Question to @atracingworld-usa on ebay:

I bought this just to check valve concentricity and/or to widen seats on the exhaust side. Maybe it will actually work for a valve job.
2.14/1.81 sizes.
Seems legit, or not. lol

https://www.ebay.com/itm/322567142651

80 hrs labor on some Promaxx heads.
Valve guides super tight.


I'm almost done watching every video this guy has posted.
Taken me a few months to get through them all.

Google- Headbytes Porting reviews -the guy that did the videos you posted.

yeah, Yeah.
Everybody's got problems.

There was lots of good info disseminated sparsely throughout.
Truth is truth.

You ever watch any of these excellent videos?
https://www.youtube.com/user/PROJustinSane

Dude got busted for drugs and sexual assault charges.
Doesn't mean the info presented isn't some of the best on youtube that I've found for DIY turbo builds.

Cars run pretty good too and shows how he did it step by step.

This headbyte guy's a fraud and a cheat...ask a real head Porter about his work...the laughing never stops.

He's so successful he works out of a garden shed.

How many of his videos have you watched?

Give a couple specific things that he says or does that are totally false and would hurt power production instead of make it.

Just because he is a broke a$$ and sucks at running a business doesn't mean everything he says or does is totally worthless.

Lets see>
For example.
Deshrouding a valve in the head and rolling back the combustion chamber while at the same time removing all machinist ridges from the valve seat area is a waste of time?

Who here has an objection to the above statement?

Or how about getting your valve guide clearances setup to within X ten thousands of an inch and almost 0 out of round or taper?

Not a good idea to do? LOL

Ok.