stock stroke 360 low 10's?

i have a 77 RoadRunner drag car. 2700 lbs race ready. i would like to run low 10's with a stock stroke 360. ladder bar suspension, 4000 convertor, 4.86 gears, 727, 29.5/11.5 slicks

i need to buy a cam, (solid flat tappet) and heads. i'm thinking about the 220 CNC BPE heads. or can i get away with the 205 CNC BPE heads?

with the X heads that i had on, the compression was 11.8 at 74cc. BPE heads are at 70cc.

question is this, what solid flat tappet cam? big or small BPE heads?

It will take an honest 515 hp at a true race weight of 2700 lbs, with driver. That's only 1.4 hp per cube, so it shouldn't be too tough. Remember though, any altitude above sea level, and the hp numbers from a dyno will have to be higher, to meet the goal.
First off, the 4,000 converter is going to be tight for what you will be running to make that power. 4.86 gears could be too high, plan carefully. At 10.00, mph will be about 132. That shows ab out 7500 rpm, with some converter slip figured in.

I would say using your data that a 2700 car with 4.86/29.5 would run 10.0's at 133mph@7300rpm+verter slip, with just 520fwhp, at around 12:1CR with 205 BPE heads which I think would be adequate and save costs on rockers that is more than doable. The 7500 trap rpm would necessitate a suitable cam, something like a lunati> http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=5296&gid=247
I don't think you have enough converter for that so depending on how far into the low 10's you wanna run you could calm it down some and run in the 10.2's with a milder cam but your still going to push 7000+ at the traps and still be a bit weak on the verter with 4.86's, perhaps a drop in gearing to say 4.5's and it would calm it down some more to around 7k trap all in where your verter would work better with a milder cam....my 2 cents.

FWIW, I had a home built ladder bar 2x3 frame Challenger that weighed 2,850 w/driver. Normally aspirated stock stroke 360, OEM rods 11.5-1 compression, W-2 heads ported with the template kit (2.02/1.60 valves) Forgot what brand flat tappet cam, but it wasn't over .585" lift. (Cam Dynamics/Crower/Mopar Perf.) Harland Sharp 1.5 roller rockers. 727 w/standard gear, converter flashed at least 4,500 and a 5.13 Dana 60 w/14x32 slicks. Best ET was 10.22 @ 130+ mph. Intake was either a Holley Street Dominator or a Victor 340 (Probably a Holley) with a 750 DP. The cam and converter are the only parts I can't be more specific on. But it also had a best of 1.37 60'. Shifting around 6800 and I believe it went through at least that high.

If I knew then what I know now, I probably touched the 9's. Just switching to a 904 would have gotten me more than 1/2 way closer.

The sad part is that I ran 3 10.22's in a row. But the bottom came out of it before the finish line at Gainesville before the finish line on the 3rd one. I won the round, but obviously couldn't come back for the next one.

Our 71 Dart has gone 10.31 128 at Bakersfield with a DA 2100 ft.

With driver the car weight in at 2825 last weekend in Vegas..

360 stock 3.58 stroke crank..11.2 to 1 compression.
H beam rods 630 grams
wiseco flat top pistons 540 gram plus pin actually MP pistons cost 200 bucks.
Hughes 6064 cam flat tappet
Eddy CNC heads with Crane 1.6 rocker
Hooker 5204 headers
904 with TA converter..flashes 5200 rpm
Dana 60 with 4.56 gears
Hoosiers 10 x 29 tire
Quick Fuel 950 not really a 950 on E85

the track i race at is around 3200 above sea level.

i would like to run 10.20's but if i see 10.40's i won't be disappointed.

it would be nice if i could use the smaller BPE as it saves on buying the offset rockers.

i also have a victor 340 intake, and 950 holley hp

so far a cam in the 580-600 lift?

Not saying that a 360 could not turn 7300-7800 rpm's, but you that motor won't last that long. That will walk to some degree unless you have an R 4 bolt main block.I'd shoot for power between 6400-6800 rpms. At 2700 lbs. a W2 head and MP 590 cam, M1 intake and a 750 to 850 carb should get you there. Can't comment on the BPE head. Big ? is where it will start making power. 360's make torque. Pittsburgh Racer should chime in. He has a fast SB.

BPE has 2 versions. the smaller head is 205 cc and the bigger head is 220 cc.

the 220 cc heads requires an offset rocker.

i already have a set of standard LA rockers so if i can use the smaller 205 cc heads i will.

BPE 205's should be enough, summit rate that same Lunati cam at 3000-7200

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/lun-30230743/overview/

Run that with a 4.30 gear and your tyres and you get>

60 Foot E.T. : 1.40
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.37
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 106.67
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.10
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 132
1/4 Mile Trap RPM : 6,503+slip@3%?>>6700-6800
with 4.56's its 6896+slip@3%?>>7000>7100
Carb 850DP+...those numbers are a projection with a true on track 518fwhp needed + your altitude above.

Do the RIGHT cam, the first time.

Call Tim at Bullet and let them grind you a cam. You will not be disappointed!

according to wallace racing 1/4 mile stats, i need 480-500 hp to run 10.10's at 131. so it's fair to say i will need 500 hp to run 10.50's?

i can change my slicks to 14/32 if that would help my top end rpm.

i looked on Bullets website last night, are they also Ultradyne?

Myron, I remember talking with you about the cam way back when. IIRC it was a Reed camshaft.

Let me be the first to say that even though the car is light it's still a brick. Those calculators are pretty generous if you ask me. I had a W5 headed 360 in my 2750 pound, 2x3, 4 link Scamp that ran 10.40's at sea level with a 950 carb and big flat tappet, .672 lift with 1.6 rockers. 904 with a converter flashing to 5300 and 4.86 gears on 14.5x32's that was shifted at 7000 and went through the lights at about 6800. Now the short block had a lot of passes on it and the ring seal was not great but I still think those numbers are a bit unrealistic.

I would plan my build around the idea that it needed to make an honest 575+ corrected hp to run low 10's with that combo at 3200ft elevation.
DA is probably often solidly over 5500ft.

IMO, for what those 4" stroke cast cranks cost........ I'd just stroke it.

Hey wait! Where's quikmopardan (sp?)

He's been bottom 10's with a stock stroke 360 at more weight than the OP

There are those people that have their combos really sorted out well.
But that seems like it's not usually the case for "most" bracket cars.
If you're not saddled with a bunch of rules limiting the engine, it's generally less expensive to build a little extra hp into the motor from the start, than to try and make updates to the car after the thing is all together and running, if it falls short of the goal.

The OP says the track is at 3200ft elevation.... This is about 3 three tenths in ET.
So if you're targeting 10.10-10.20("low" 10's) for that elevation, you should be planning on a 9.80-9.90 sea level combo.

Saskatchewan International Raceway (the track i race at) is 1654 feet above sea level. it's usually around 3000-3500 feet in summer with the humidity.

just to compare, my buddy has a Daytona that's at 2600 lbs. he has a 540 dyno hp 360'' with w2 heads that runs 9.40's.

is it possible to make 500 hp with the smaller BPE head and 580-600 lift solid?

Elevation/altitude......... Not the same as "density altitude".

The 1600' track elevation is worth about a tenth and a half.

I have used this Wallace Calc for years for my cars when I was racing at S-Pod, it came out well to actual on track performance....but it is based on 0 altitude which SP is....DA is not normally an issue either.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/accel-calc.php

the numbers I get for your friends car are>
2600lbs/540fwhp
60 Foot E.T. : 1.37
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.21
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 109.52
1/4 Mile E.T. : 9.84
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 136
I guess a low Daytona will cut through the air better than most, don't know about 4/10ths though?.

I would agree that building yours to run in the high 9's (540hp) won't hurt. 14x32's with 4.86 and 540hp brings you back to 6870rpm trap+ slip.

On the moroso slide rule, 2600lbs/540hp = 9.65 @ 139.
Add .15 for the track elevation and you'd be at around 9.80.

9.40's/2600lbs = 580hp, as it sits in the car, including the reduction for weather and elevation.

That "should" be a 600+ hp motor.

Not having a Moroso slide and never used one it would be interesting to just ask, and a bit off topic apologies, but what hp numbers would you get for>

3000lbs and 10.7@125 and 9.96@133.9 if you don't mind.
thanks fast

Its really pathetic what this site has become. Dyno heads and slide-rule chemists. Put the damn thing together and go out and run low 10's for garsh sake's. its not that hard. Why worry so much about a dog-gone number.

Thanks. I forgot that I tried Reed for a while as well.

i don't care about the hp. all i said is it seems that 500 hp would get me into the 10's. all i want to do is run 10.50's and if it works out to run 10.20's i'll be a happy camper.

what i don't want to do is buy a set of heads and a cam to only run 11.50's. i asked if the BPE heads and a 580-600 lift solid would get me in the ballpark with the parts i already have.

so what parts do you think i need to run mid 10's?

What you said initially was:



if a customer came to me with that target goal, and a motor combo was built and installed in the car and it went 10.60's or so, that would be a "D-" on the report card.

It's not at all hard to get a 2700lb car to run 10's with a stock stroke 360........ but if you build the motor and it only has enough power for a high 10.... you may find yourself a looooong way from a "low-10".

I haven't had a situation occur yet where the customer wanted XX.XX ET, and the car ended up going a little quicker than that........ and the customer was unhappy about it.

Even though some feel building a combo "by the numbers" is the wrong way to do it, I find it's easier to come up with a plan that will achieve the goals set at the beginning if you have a good idea of what it's going to take to get there........based on the numbers.

My Sons 3150 pound 70 Duster runs 10.50's with a well worn (.040) over 360, stock crank, flat top 11.2 compression pistons, H beam rods, 520 lift Racer Brown solid lift cam, set of Edelbrock heads I ported with a 2.05 valve, 340 Victor I ported, 750 alcohol carb, 727 with 5600 stall convertor, 4.30 gear, 10-28 slicks, 1 7/8 headmen headers, shifteded at 6400 rpm. Nothing magical and probably the worse set of heads in our inventory ( app 290 max cfm if I remember right). Don't ask me how much horsepower because I don't know or care. The track tells the tale. Just to add this is at Keystone not some East coast super track

It seems like that's what you want to build........so build it.

If it's built properly, the converter works correctly, fuel system, carb, etc, are all good....it should run 10's no problem.

Thanks Jim

Wallace in contrast says 484hp at 10.7 and 600 at 9.96....thats quite a big difference to your numbers... I disagree this site is not just number crunchers at all as mentioned. I understand the put it together and see what it runs thing as that is what I did back in the day and what most still do over here. However if you have a specific goal you want to reach as asked by the OP there is already enough info out there concerning matched engine parts to be able to figure it out if you search enough, calcs can help you more thats all, they are not the be all and end all of building a car just a reasonably accurate projection tool of what your car needs hp wise to achieve your goals with a given weight assuming you have a good chassis and its only a part of the whole thing.

I have talked with BPE about his heads. I will call Tim at bullet on Monday and see what he has to say about the cam choice.

Talk to Richard at bullet if tims not available can not wait to see a set of rods heads on a motor to see how they work they sure look nice

Call Racer Brown and order a STX-21--106 ls. I went 10.30s at 3100#, with that cam with less than 11 to 1 CR and ported factory smog heads, 587 castings. At your weight it would have been a bit quicker. The stock crankshaft broke after 1400+ passes. Block survived with an align hone and another .020 overbore, now 371 c.i. Updated the porting and put the same cam back in it. Scat 3.58 stroke steel crank and I-beam rods. Rotating weight quite a bit less with the scat rods vs the probe h-beams that were in it. Will have a rear sump oil pan also now as car has alterktion front suspension. Car still weighs north of 3050#. 10teens???? That engine is in the dungeon waiting for a reason to put it in the car. Engine in car now has close to 2200 passes and still running strong. I looked at the BPE heads and you won't go wrong with them. I think for stock stroke the smaller version would be the better choice, unless you are planning a 4" stroke build later down the road.

i don't plan on going 4'' stroke. plans are to run this stock stroke 360'' for years and years. i usually only get out 4 times a season.

i'll call around to cam companies and see what they all recommend and go from there.

I run 9.80's / 9.70's on a stock stroke 360, solid flat tappet cam, stage 2 eddy heads with 1.6 rockers, cam is from hughes, 292 duration, 642 lift on intake 652 on exh, 103 center, car weighs 2650 with me in it, , 13.6:1 compression, on e98, trying a new converter this year so hopefully the numbers will go down, so its not hard to do, I think the 360 with a flat tappet cam is very under rated,

what gear and converter do you have now?

4.44 gears, the new converter is a 8" 5500 stall, the old one was a 10" 4000 stall, 31x12.5x15W tire.

with 4.44 gears, what's your top end RPM? must be close or over 7000?

Shifting at 7000, crossing about 7300