Header building Never again!!

Just finished doing a set for a friend of mine way too many hours and frustration to do this any more let more talent people do this.
His car was a hard one to fit the tubes into.

I get looked at cross eyed when I say I wouldn't do it for 2 grand lol. I had 1/2 that much in material

I built my own, I would do it again in a second. Loved it.

Brutal tight area and 2 1/8" primaries, I made spike collectors and equal length tubes, fit like a glove!

Nice welds though!

I like doing them... sometimes its a bit more
time to get them as close to equal length as
possible

I know of dyno tests that indicate equal length is unimportant. I wouldn't spend my time trying to make them equal length. Make the bends as smooth as possible, that is more important.

JD, those headers you built are art!

Equal length is like port timing.. I try to get
it as close as I can.. I seen it on the dyno..
on my W-9 set is within .1 in length.. but what
do I know

More than me, you've been there, done that. My friend Jay Brown was meticulous about always building equal length. Then someone told him smooth bends are more important than equal length. He didn't really believe it. He has his own dyno, so he did back to back tests. He reports to me that equal length didn't make any more power. But you have your own experience, go with what you know.

Smooth bends are a standard.. you have to do
them if you want any decent header.. but equal
length is important also
EDIT
Also if you can you want large radius bends.. but
number 1 thing is they have to fit in the car

Never again? That would be a shame. Looks like you did a nice job.

I agree,very nice,but I also understand the "never again" feeling on a project!

I agree... he knows how and nice welds

I still like my JD LT's...

If I were doing them for a living there's a plastic tubing kit where there's a ton of curves and straights that snap together and make each tube (all four at one time). They come in different size tubes and allow for any bend and really look like a header when all snaped together, infinitely adjustable. They start at $245 and go up, no more guessing and trial fitting.

Isn't that the kit that you send in to have the pipes bent to there shape?

Look's Good to me something to be proud of... If there is a next time it will go faster and pay better people who understand the process will pay.........

Yea and no. Stainless Header Co. has jointed pipe kit you can use for a model so they can make make a header to your design. I suspect if you had the ICE kit they'ld be fine with that too.

But you can buy the ICE blocks for your own projects too. My impression is that they can be helpful but are not magic. It probably depends on the builder and the specific situation. Brian Slowe built me a set of headers last year and in this case he did not use them (even though he has them).
Here's a post about them over in Speedtalk.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41836&p=565969#p565969
BTW That's a great thread to read in general for anyone interested in headers, at least the first 5 plus pages anyway. Lots of points about building as well as design and theory all mixed in.

Hot rod did a test (is a you tube videos of it) where they did back to pulls on a set of headers. Then took a hammer and beat a dent into a tube ....made a pull...more dents...a lot of dents. And I think was like a 6 or 7 hp loss. And the headers looked like junk

Looking good Jess

I watched that some time back.. I do have a
couple of questions on it.. first.. if a bented
up set of headers works just as well.. doesnt
that give you the idea that the area of those
were to large to start with.. second.. if that
held true.. why arent all the pro stocks beating
up there headers.. my opinion on that vid is they
were too big to start with.. but a lot of people
use to big

Ice engine works
"Dramatically simplify header and turbo manifold design and fabrication with these modeling blocks from Icengineworks! These blocks simply snap together to form header primaries that can then be duplicated by cutting and welding commonly available prebent U-bends and J-bends.
Included with each kit are both straight and curved blocks in a variety of radii. Each block represents a 1 inch arc length of tubing. Blocks of different sizes can also be connected to simulate stepped headers. Each block is molded with a series of markings and index points to make the transition to metal as easy as possible."

Hemi Joel is right. I worked with Schoenfeld when I made my headers and he regularly makes race-application only headers for small time groups like NASCAR & World of Outlaws. He has his own dyno and has proven that unequal length is often better. On one engine, he had runners that varied by more than a foot and it gave the best H.P. numbers on the dyno. He prescribes by the theory that rather than an engine being a set of cylinders working together, they are really a series of individual single cylinder engines working individually. Yes, you want them to work the same but equal length doesn't always equate to that. Bends are more critical. -EM

Very nice!

Exactly. Its like cylinderhead porting. Its takes time and alot of work. Some people just dont get it.

Thank you and every one else for the kind words.

This felt more like a job and I wasn't enjoying it. Nobody will pay all the hours we have into making them.
Welding alone was 9hrs
Last set I made for mine had 2 to 3 welds per tube but being a chassis car was easy

They did a follow up episode, because so many people made that same argument. The Header Bash episode and the follow up Pick the Right Exhaust Header The results were interesting

Those headers look awesome! You have more patience than I.

That is the Ice Engine works kit. Their full kit for one diameter size is around $1,500. That includes the $700 cutting jig.
http://www.icengineworks.com/

http://www.icengineworks.com/product-category/series/1750-series/

Yea, I was way off on the price, but I imagine they would make it easy for fitting in a tight chassis (440 in an a-body). There's a company that makes stainless steel headers for class cars and they start at $3500

I just finished a set of ss B1-SB step headers for my brother. It's a lot of work, especiallly keeping all the stock front end stuff and working around a 4-speed setup in an a body. Came out nice and are at QC coatings getting done right now.

My brother and I still laugh because he bought a "builder kit" from Columbia river and they said was enough to build a set. I think I got through 2-1/2 tubes.lol. It takes much more material then you think and I didn't waste a single bend. We debated on an ice kit, then just put the Tig and chop saw to work.

Cutting and piecing together is the easy part, you just have to know how to cut angles. I made a angle chart on a piece of aluminum from 90 ,45 and 22 1/2 degree's, marked the angle I needed and cut.

I built a set for my small block D50. And there is not much room at all under the hood of it and it has inner fenders. I would probably be faster if someone that knows what they were doing built me some. This was my first set I have built. I ordered flanges from TTI and 2 header kits for a small block Chevy from Summit.

Yeah lots of work, you have done a great job, just don't tell anyone . I made my own fenderwells, that was a lot easier than dealing with starters, torsion bars and inner guards.

Header building is definitely an art.... Greg Holman at REF Unlimited in Kingman AZ builds them in a day. Make the appt, drop the car off in the am, by 2 to 4 in the afternoon he calls you to pick up your car. He does incredible work. Both of my engines have his pipe.

Tell someone 2.5K for a nice set of headers and they often look at you like you have 3 heads. Quality material and parts, keep them equal length within .5", make them fit, make them reasonable to get on and off, the handwork of the collectors and the inside of the tubes at the flanges, etc., etc. Any less and you are just doing it for a hobby.

there are some very impressive skills floating around this place, in spite of the slight differences of opinion...mighty fine handiwork shown here.

My turbo headers I built followed by my A body Big Block headers.

I'm going to try building my first set for the Jensen. I actually bought the 1-3/4" Ice Engine kit, as I'm fairly sure I will be doing some for a few other cars.

If you seen my other posts, I'm looking at a tri-y setup, and right now, looking to make my own 2-1 "y" merges as the pre-built ones are sort of pricy. Hopefully the Ice kit will help reduce the amount of waste. It is supposed to help in ordering the number and type of bends?

I'll need some scrap to practice on. I want to try some with pulsed tig vs. regular tig.

We may to build a set also for a 392 Hemi first gen in a 57 Desoto Firesweep.

I struggled with headers on mine and was ready to load up and take my pile to Arizona but I found a local guy that did some header work. The headers I had made for a low deck big block a body which was a challenge especially made as I wanted. I absolutely did not want in chassis headers which limits any header builder especially with 2 1/8 stepped to 2 1/4 primary. I notched my firewall to give him clearance and came out awesome but a little long which he said run them and we can shorten them if it hurts the HP. So far I've gained 60 foot and lost 1 mph.

Frustration: finding out that the equal-to-within-one-RCH, perfect fit and radius set you made produces 5 hp less than the coat-hangar J. C. Whitney setup your friend has. 50 years ago Mickey Thompson did a demo in which he heated up the primaries with the engine running, and pulled them up and out 60 degrees. Result: +50 hp.

It's not science yet, there's too much random and unknown to know what works. Read Gordon Blair on exactly how many waves are present inside the primary = there's constant traffic in both directions.

Been there done that. I know make the trip to Kingman and Greg Hollman at REF. He gets them done in less than a day and they look great. Best part is cost is not much more than I pay for materials to do them from SPD, which is who he uses as well.

I would LOVE to watch these guys in action. Craftsmen at work.

These were done in 4 hours, collectors and all.

Lol. It took me over 8 hours to modify 2 tubes last year to get a diaper on my black duster. And it has lots of room

Some people don't take coffee breaks and are already five steps ahead in their mind. That equates to knowing what you're doing, no hesitation, no second questing. Ever do drywall? Took me a week what the pro did in an hour.

Well the only thing they do at REF is build headers. So that defeintly helps for sure. We have done a few sets and seems to take forever and the cost of materials is really high. So from now on it is REF or Performance Welding for me.

We ran into the same thing at ATI were I was a Millwright at the time for 30 years. They forced a 1.00 an hour raise on us and instead of just Millwright work they sent us to limited schooling to become welders, hydraulic repair, carpenters, pipefitters, diesel mechanics, riggers, and railroad car rebuilders. Everyone was out of there element and I retired 3 years later. A skilled craft is one thing but to master 9 crafts is impossible in such a short time period.