New roll bar installed. Gonna cut it back out.

After getting referrals from no fewer than 4 local racers in the Central TN / KY area, I dropped my '69 Barracuda off with a reputable builder about 10 days ago for an NHRA +9.99 roll bar install. The examples I found online of this guy's work appeared to be well-engineered with very nice welds.

Unfortunately I am less than impressed with his work on my Barracuda. Am I being too picky?


For starters the main hoop is just plain weird-shaped. It is 51" wide at the floor, 54" wide at the crossbar, and probably another 3"-4" wider at the bottom of the windows - leaving very little room for the interior panels.











I told him I was running stock interior, but I've got zero room for armrests on the front doors, as seen here looking straight down the passenger door.



So... the main hoop is "funky" and the front bars need to be moved. Now let's check out the rear bars. For starters, neither rear bar is even close to being square to the floor, especially the right side.






.... which results in both bars leaning very noticeably to the left, causing them to also be off center. At the point where the bars bend forward, the right bar measures nearly 1-1/2" inches further from the same interior measuring point as the left one.





Wasn't able to get a good side shot through the back glass, but the rear bars also don't follow the lines of the car whatsoever. Kinda looks like someone just tossed a set of crooked monkey bars in the back of a fastback Barracuda.

The welds are also nothing like I had seen in his other work. I know - not all good welds are pretty and not all pretty welds are good. But this is not the quality I was looking for. There are holes big enough to hang a pencil in them.

[img]http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r796/SRTinc/20170130_201724_resized_zps3hiyo0ef.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r796/SRTinc/20170129_190115_resized_zpsji3gpykn.jpg[/img]


There's no way I'm gonna start a nice street car build with a foundation like this, so I'm cutting it all back out.

The guy has agreed over the phone to give me a refund. To be fair I don't expect a 100% refund because some of the floor work and braces under the floor will probably stay, but I don't think anyone would be happy with this kind of work.

A frustrating setback, for sure.

Yeah those welds are horrible looking.

On my cage the bars were wedged in with a hammer with a tight fit before being TIG welded in.


If you do decide to get your cage re-done it will be a pain to cut everything out.

Yeah, my main hoop started out close to that. I took it back out and bent a new one. Then, I had to change out my funny car hoop. Maybe a good idea would have been to leave some of the interior components with him for test fitting before final welding. Sometimes on a custom build there is a lot of throw away, I know first hand.

The fit in the above picture is pretty loose.

I won't say much about the welding.

Yeah, but I'm not real comfortable with dropping the car off and leaving it for HIM to cut it out. I've had visions of picking it up with big torch holes everywhere.

I talked with B&B Race Cars in Hohenwald TN today, and I put the Barracuda on their waiting list. More time and more money, but hopefully the end result will be a lot better.

Terrible craftsmanship.

I offered to bring him the seats or anything else he might need but he said he didn't need them. He's been doing this stuff for over 40 years so I didn't argue.

My thoughts exactly.

Darren at B&B is one of the best......good choice

I would be ashamed to let that out of my shop, at the very least get the bars straight, square.

40 years??? Maybe retirement is in order. That was a HACK job!

But hats off to him for agreeing to a refund. That's unheard of these days.

Sorry to see this, definitely not great work. At least he is willing to make it right. Maybe a new employee proble. As stated B&B is one of the best out there.

What shop did the work? PM me if you don't want to post it please. I'm going to be in the market for a roll bar soon.

Dennis

My S&W kit was way better fit than that. Also my guy builds dragster chassis and wanted my seats for trial fit.

PM sent.

Been there done that....Cut it out.

I am not liking those welds. I worked for a speed shop for a few years and welded in cages back in my early 20's and with 3 years of welding experience I was laying beads a lot nicer than that.

Not tooting my own horn, and we all know looks aren't everything when it comes to welds, but some of those welds appear to be structurally flawed and you'd think with that much experience he'd get them looking a lot better than that.

Also please don't tell me the pic that Rylispro posted is from your cage. If it is, I wouldn't go near that guy again for any welding work. Nothing should ever leave a shop looking like that.

Unfortunately that pic IS one of welds, in the area right behind the driver's seat.

All I can say is Wow!

If a shop can't fit and weld like these pics go fin someone else!

I didn't get one. I'll PM you so you can reply to mine.

Dennis

One reason I chose this shop was because of the quality of this Mustang he built a few years ago. He built the wing, rear end housing, complete rear suspension, roll cage... everything. One man shop. Hard to believe the same guy who built this car botched my Barracuda this bad.

I'm stumped...

Something is wrong. You can see a complete difference in the welds. Your cage could not have been done by the same person.

The pics of that Mustang were taken in the exact same spot, in the exact same shop where I dropped off my car, and in a thread on a Mustang site the guy given credit for the work on the Mustang is the exact same guy I handed my cash to...

Granted, that car was built in 2009 - about 8 years ago. But I was shocked, to say the least.

Is that TIGed? Is he losing his eyesight? Not being funny. The strength of my readers have become stronger over the last few years. Happens when you get older. Personal problems? Divorce? Something happened to the guy. If he gave your money back, I would let it go. I know it's a PIA to cut it all out, but the guy has to have something really bad going on in his life for that to happen. You don't just forget how or get up one day and not give a $&!t anymore.

It's the shits when you get old and can't see.

Yes, I have been a steel fabricator for 35 years, my sons are better welders than me now because they can just see better. These days I tack stuff up and let them weld it for me.

Are you 100% sure that he built the Mustang himself? I've encountered more than a few bull$h1tters who claim they have "built" cars from the ground up when in reality couldn't be further from the truth. Any way, there is no way the same person that did that Mustang also did your bar.
How long is the wait for B&B? There are a few other good shops within reasonable distance for you if B&B has a really long wait list
Jessie's Garage
Bivins Race Cars
Fast Chassis

I'm not 100% sure because I wasn't there when he built it, but the Mustang's owner claimed he built everything on the car. The shop is at the guy's house where he has lived since the 1970s.

The builder is also a racer and he DID mention that he only races for fun these days because his eyes are getting too bad for him to be competitive.

So...it might just be his vision getting bad. If that's the case I feel bad for him, but maybe its time to transition to less ambitious projects.

I'm going to call him today and tell him I'm cutting it out myself and just bringing the bars back. Like I said, I'm not comfortable with just leaving the car for him to do it. Hopefully he'll be true to his word about a refund.

I'm thinking the same thing. That's one reason I haven't posted his name, I don't want to flame the guy out just because his eyes have gotten too bad to do it anymore.

As long as I get some funds back to get it done right, I'll just chalk it up as a learning experience.

Now that more info has come out I feel the same, I'm more inclined to say physical problems (mini stroke). Sometimes the glory days just slip away so slowly we don't realize till to late (a reason he's giving your money back) I feel badly for the guy, sorry for my earlier comment.

I will say that some guys, for whatever reason are ashamed to wear glasses. Especially if you never had to have them and one day you can no longer read a mic.

I've had prescription glasses since 2010. On January 16 I got trifocals, with the lines. I had bifocals with no lines and they were making me fall down, catch my body on things I normally wouldn't, all kinds of bad stuff. My new glasses stopped all that. And a new eye doctor who wasn't in love with those lineless glasses.

It could be he needs glasses and won't admit it.

Not to hijack the thread but did you get a quote from B&B? Curious what they get for a 8.50 cage.

For my NHRA legal 9.99 roll bar they're saying around $1800. Not sure where they'd be on an 8.50 cage.

They're quite a bit higher than the first guy but they come highly recommended and have won several NHRA Best Engineered awards.

I'd rather pay good money for a good job than have any more issues.

I've worked with a lot of guys like that. Might be they just don't want to admit they are getting old.

I've had bifocals for almost 15 years already. I'm finding more and more stuff I do I can't see through either the top or bottom of my glasses. Pretty sure tri's are in my future this year too.

Just got off the phone, now he is acting like he wants another shot at it.

NOT gonna happen.

I told him I would just cut the bars out myself and bring the stuff back to his shop, but he is insisting that HE needs to cut it out.

I hate to burn up an entire day, but the only way I'll let him take it out is if he does it while I'm standing right there watching.

So tomorrow I'll be making the third trip down there with the trailer...

Some of those welds look like he has the gas turned off !!

That's a bummer. Is he worried you're going to waste the bars getting them out or what? We are talking less the 500 dollars aren't we?

Is this a condition of getting a refund? Maybe offer to deduct the scrap value of the steel from the refund. If it goes back, I agree, watch it being done. If he is actually a schmuck, he's liable to cut the car all up trying to save the thing. And maybe insist on the refund cash (yes, cash) being in your pocket before he fires up the sawzall.

As it turns out I'm gonna be able to take it down this afternoon, gonna load it up now.

Anxious to see how it goes once I get there...

Show him the pictures of that Mustang then ask why yours didn't look that good.

He might need a set of 3.0 glasses now days
versus a set of 2.0.. its that simple.. I didnt
wear any glasses until 40 years old.. then I got
a set of 2.0s then put 2.0s cheater lenses in my
helmet.. but I dont care for the style of his main
hoop.. I prefer the main hoop to land on the sill
and the out rigger to land on the sub frame

This is what I think. But some guys won't admit or, maybe he doesn't realize it. I woke up one day and couldn't read a mic anymore. It was an overnight deal. I now know why it happened but at first it was just weird.

To be honest... I can use a 2.5 now days..
its getting a bit harder to see the weld
puddle with 2.0s

I was going to just cut it out with a Sawzall but he insisted I bring it to his shop. When I got there I could tell he was pretty hot under the collar, but he barely said a word. He cut it out with a torch, and some slag burned a spot on the inside of my right quarter window in the process. I guess that's on me for not taking the glass out.

When he was finished he handed me the same 14 hundred dollar bills I had paid him with.

I guess you can't get much more fair than that.

Lesson learned.

Did he look at the mess? Bad welds are one thing but the bends where terrible.

I am impressed that he gave your money back, that is RARE !

Did you ask about the work that was did on the stang?

Well all in all he did give you the money back! So IMO it's could of been much worse.
Apply what you got to the new shop and move on.
Funny how everyone mentioned the bad welds which COULD be good. Probably not and not worth taking a chance, especially when the whole cage is sub par.
Post some pics of the other guy when done please.
Matt

Will be sure to update when the new one's finished.

Yeah, he said "When you've built 400-500 cars you'll eventually find somebody who isn't happy with one."

Maybe 399 of them were dirt track cars.

Could be the picture but the wishbone looks crooked

When you went to pick it up the first time why did you pay for it and accept it if you were not satisfied? Just curious.
Doug

This^^^

Tread Lightly...

Sometimes you just have to shrug your shoulders and walk away.

I saw stuff off the bat that didn't seem right, but I had a limited amount of time to pick up the car.

At a gas stop on the way home I began to see more that I didn't like, and after I got it home and started measuring and seeing what a mess it was, I called him to tell him about it.

It might've been salvageable if at least part of it was up to par. But as it was, everything - the welds, the bends, the floor reinforcement, the bar fit, the bar placement- would need to be done over to make it right.

Money well spent. They do a great job.

My life experience is people become the most upset when having to deal with their own pointed out shortcomings. Other then berating himself in front of you, he did what he said he would to resolve the issue with no malice, and he returned you the money in full. Granted you both lost out on this deal in time, materials, gas, etc Nothing indicates to me he is a bad guy, just one who made a mistake, and was willing to pay the price. There are a lot worse out there. Both he and Op can learn from this.

IMO it was a stand up move for him to cut the cage out and give the money back. Integrity is a rare quality these days.

I agree with the last two posts.

Although I probably won't do business with him again, I respect him for the way he handled the situation.

I cant beleive some of what's being said.

$1,400 hundred for a tigged cm cage? That should steer you away.

Great points made on vision. My welds had gotten awesome. Then started getting where table work was the only good work I could do. A 200 cheater lense and bam doing a lot better. But, laying on your back in places you can barely reach a cheater lense is junk.

I have started a job and just couldn't beleive the bad results. Then realize I forgot to vent the tube. Or wash the tube, or a had the wrong tungsten. I see people commenting on welds sometimes that couldn't lay a mig bead on 1/4" plate straight. Thin wall tubing can be tough. But, if you can't quit and find out why.

Stand up thing to give your money back.The hoop looked OK. But definitely a heat and contamination problem. The bar to subframe says it all. When the weld ran away from joint. It's a vision problem. Getting old sucks.

It's MS not CM

Getting old sucks. Found the same with cheaters. I now have trifocals I wear all the time and damn I see much better. Hoping this helps with my welding some.

It is unfortunate but the guy really sounds like a stand up business person and yes getting older sucks, I needed bi lenses last time and pushed it off, should of accepted getting older and got them.

Help me out here, I have the 2.0s in helmet and 2.0 glasses but it's hard to see the joint, too dark. Never had this problem before, adjustment problem of the hat or time to get a new one? Thought about using a halogen light but does that mess with auto-dimmer? Ready to weld up the car and don't want a mess.

"Visual acuity alone is not a good predictor of a person's degree of visual difficulty. Someone with relatively good acuity (e.g., 20/40) can have difficulty functioning, while someone with worse acuity (e.g., 20/100) might not experience any significant functional problems. Other visual factors, such as poor depth perception, limited side vision, extreme sensitivity to lights and glare, and reduced color perception, can also limit a person's ability to do everyday tasks."

http://www.aoa.org/patients-and-public/g...rs-of-age?sso=y


Nearing retirement age, I am surprised how positive a daily multi vitamin improves matters ( Vitamin A?). I have read that by age 40, the average person has lost nearly 50% of their night vision, but it happens very slowly, and we adjust, and I think that is a factor seeing in welding between the bright light and darker areas when welding.

Thought about using a halogen light but does that mess with auto-dimmer?

You can actually burn your eyes just being close to the halogen light even if you dont look at it....dont ask me how I know.

If you have an auto darkening helmet, you can adjust it down so that it stays a bit lighter. I have mine set usually around 10+/-.

I have adjusted between 9 & 12 but not much difference
Might try a 100 watt shop light, standard incandescent
I'm using the newer tungsten electrode (can't remember the name) thought that might be the problem
Of course it might just be me.

I think the age issue is mainly about relative contrast, so a bright light that lightens the relatively dark areas when welding can only help. No matter what, the only downside to extra lighting is the helmet darkens, with no harm to eyes. You do have to be careful in keeping spill light from getting to inside of helmet lens, as then you are just looking at a bright reflection, with no gain.

edit: changing the lens darkness setting does not adjust what I think is the age culprit, too much contrast.

I've seen clip on lights for Mig torches. I wonder if the same will work for Tig torches.

The fact that he gave you a complete refund is admirable, slightly weird he wanted to cut it out himself though. Anyway, here's some advice from someone who has built a cage himself. I bought a S&W cage kit for an e-body. The stuff was cut and bent very nicely. Make sure to have the door and rear interior panels installed along with door handles and window cranks. Also seat needs to be installed because according to rule books, the side bar has to be installed pretty accurately based on driver location. I don't see how anyone can do that without the seats......but I don't do this for a living.

He claimed he didn't need the seats or anything, but you can bet I'm taking everything with the car when it goes to B&B Race Cars later this month...

I also thought it was weird that he wanted to cut it out himself. He was more of a butt before another customer showed up (a guy who turned out to be a mutual acquaintance) than he was afterward - when he pretty much just kept to himself and cut it out. I was kinda glad the other guy showed up, it probably kept the situation a little more civil.

Gotta give him credit for the refund, which he also gave me after the other customer got there. Very awkward for all involved, to say the least.

Probably wanted to keep the evidence of poor quality work from being passed around. Very good that he gave you a refund, and he did save you some work.

^^^ with this ^^^the guy's rep. was on the line.

He can reuse the moly and get a little $$ back.
I'm glad it worked out.