Any slick new 440 recipes ? 500 HP stock appearing

Just pulled my original 440 off the shelf from my GTX and off to get sonic tested , was bored previous 30 over
We see how much it can be hogged out after test.
But tryin to figure out a budget

Will be Iron six pack
Will be Iron heads , I have any flavor ready to send for serious massaging.
Will be a Bob K solid cam .
Will be stock exh manifolds
Probably use cp pistons , not sure on rods
Want to be 10:1


I have a fresh stock crank that was machined by Nick at Compuflow, Id love to reuse it. God, I miss that guy.

I know it would be easy to stroke at this point.

But what can i do to get close to 500 without stroking.

does anyone have any new ideas , Cant seem to keep up on all new products .

Thanks In advance .

true 10:1, ported iron heads, "any of them really" a solid in the 240@.050 range the six pack I would think should make your 500 goal.

I don't know much about them but a fellow at the track was running I believe quick fuel 2barrels on his six pack. that car ran 9.90s it was a nice carb setup for sure

Im guessin his 6pk were a mechanical setup
That would be cool to see if not . Ill b heavy at 4000 lbs
Ot
Or if i lose some lbs .

Just picked up the guts - Literally all the junk is in trunk
At least there were some six pack rods
in the pile - not sure if its worth reworking the rods with new bolts
And resizing or using brand new rods ?

The first 6 pak motor I built with stock 906 heads and stock size valves and dyno tuned with a small cam for myself made right at 470 HP and more torque than HP on CA pump swill. Using the stock exhaust manifolds may make it very hard to achieve your goals, how about offset grinding that crank to 3.90 stroke for BB Chevy rods and lighter pistons
I started building a lot of stock stroke 440 motors after that and had a guy down the street mildy port the heads and added 2.14 intake valves and 1.81 exhaust, all of the those motors with bigger cams(both hydraulic and solid lifter cams), not solid roller race cams, made over 500 HP on CA pump swill with single 850 CFM carbs and different intakes
EDITED. I use the six pak rods once in a bracket motor, not this six pak build. this motor has LY rods in it, I will never use another set of 6 pak rods in any build, there way to heavy and limit the upper RPM

Why 10.0-1? It might run on pump gas if the cam is big enough, might not. Either make it pump gas friendly for sure or crank it up.
Doug

I guess thats why im postin lookin for ideas .
Valves will be 181/214.
Want to be pump gas happy .
Im buildin this so i dont need race gas, but i dont mind
blending to get better fuel .
Wish AL heads were in my plan, maybe ill get swayed.
Its pretty cool to run hi compression and still use pump furl- but i
Think ill be able to brag more if the engine has iron heads, and if i get a life
again id like the car to be fast or super legal

I'd leave the sixpak rods in the pile. By the time you resize them and buy good bolts, you have paid for most of a set of H beams that will lighten up your bobwieght a ton.

Another vote for a stroker. 511 cubes will hit your number by accident. If you are stuck on using iron heads I'd use 915's and build it zero deck for quench stroker or not.

A stroker with Stealth heads would do the deed at 9:1 on 87 regular.

Kevin

I'm at 10.4:1 with steel heads, cam is 250@.050. went 2 steps colder on plug than factory and running 36* timing locked out. 93 pump gas with some octane booster here and there. no ping and no aluminum on plugs

You'll have as much money in a set of rebuilt cast iron heads as you will a set of Stealths. They are easily upgraded with CNC porting as well without the worry of cracking. Stock look to boot.

By the time you mess around machining old, wore out stock junk like rods and crank, you might as well buy new and have it bolt together, be stronger and be lots lighter!

My motor looks very stock but, in the end, I threw away everything but the basic block, valve covers and timing cover!

A 4.25 crank with .030 makes 505" and there is zero downside and it falls in the block like it was originally put there.

The iron exhaust is a mistake, it seriously compromises what you can do with a cam - the exhaust needs to open earlier, but less overlap. You can make a much better non-tubular exhaust from weld-els, but it's a lot of work.
If you really need to run them have them ported by Brzezinski or Extrude-Honed (both $$), and add extra thick manifold flanges between the manifolds and the ports.

I don't care what someone thinks I have on my engine, because opening the hood at Dairy Queen isn't my purpose... but that's just me.

i have a true 69 440 six pac motor rebuilt using kb quench dome pistons for a true 9.7.1comp mp 484 cam everything else bone stock orig.dynoed the motor through the manifolds with air cleaner on just as if it where in the car and made 438hp/476ftlbs no tunning etc just a stock rebuilt.i think with porting better cam and playing with carbs and 10.1 would get you 500.

Paint some sidewinder or stealth heads and throw the MP .528(or something proven friendly to HP manifolds)in there and hang on.Ditch the factory rods too.

Our latest build was a +.040 426/440 stroker from 440Source....and stockish 916 heads with 2.14/1.81 valves and a solid cam. Makes just over 600hp on pump gas with a 1000cfm carb and went 6.96 in the 1/8th in a big heavy B-body. Its a street engine and does double duty.

Well prepared 915 heads to about 76-78cc. Zero deck with 12 or 13 cc dish pistons (Diamond, ICON... (Diamonds are lightest). Put a 750 gram rod in it. Solid lifter cam designed for manifolds. 2 1/2" mandrel bent exhaust with DynoMax UltraFlo mufflers. Get the tune right as rain, and you should be at a solid 475 hp.

Everyone I knew back in the day shunned the 6 pack rods. Too heavy and no benefit. Those that ran the 6 pack rods broker or spun bearings. H beams are a much better route to go. I agree with others on the quench idea. IF you go with iron heads and have to go with the 906 heads, then get pistons with popups in the quench area so you can run street gas and not worry about detonation. Keith Black has these pistons and I am sure other do as well.
I have a buddy that runs a 440 .030 over stock stroke, with 440 rods and upgraded rod bolts. He runs a MP cam and small shot of nitrous with an automatic and 3.90 rear gear. He routinely runs mid 6 range in a full body 70 Challenger street car. AVOID the 6 pack rods like the plague.
Just my 2 cents worth.
You can spend some time this winter and open the 906 heads up to flow some really good numbers.
Good luck with your build.
Jerry

Brag to who about it having iron heads? Nobody cares about that stuff..............the fastest so and so with iron heads, so and so valve and 6 pack rods. Truly nobody cares. So as already stated, sell the 6 pack anchors to some resto guy, don't waste the money on iron heads and paint the alum ones orange. More power AND cheaper in the long run

For performance, I agree. But you would be surprised at how many engine builds down at the shop we get for basically that almost exact request! Not to mention, some Nostalgia classes still require iron heads and blocks only. We have a guy that ports all the iron heads and Ron does the seats and new valves & decking followed by a vacuum seal check after the valve job.

Right now we have a blown 331 Hemi all iron in the works....The old style with the bell cast right into the block, and a really small Ford flat head in the hone....People still want the old stuff, and it pays the same either way. We generally get the most requests for a 440 stroker with iron heads. I think Ron built one with iron, and the last two with aluminum. But if its just a street car that never sees over 5800....

So as much as I like the go fast stuff, I would bet the better part of the rebuilds in our area are just this....But then again, they did ask this in the "Race Tech" section and Hemi blocks are tough to get right now.

Check with Jim LaRoy (IQ52). He has some serious ported iron heads 300+ CFM.

Quote from "forbbodiesonly.com":
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/flow-chart-906-heads.120185/#post-910540502
"These are different stages of port design we have done with the 906 head depending upon the effort extended. Some of these take weeks to do. It's why I recommend aluminum heads unless iron is required by the rules or for some personal reason you just must run iron. None of these have required welding or epoxy. We haven't done an all-out 906 head for 8-10 years. All of these are from our records on our flowbench.

Lift... stock I/E
.100......63/57......89/60......80/61......91/.....71/.....91/.....89/60
.200....137/103...168/124...161/126...157/...150/...165/...161/129
.300....187/145...218/170...219/175...217/...209/...219/...212/185
.400....216/168...249/200...262/201...250/...257/...272/...257/216
.500....224/176...260/217...280/215...276/...292/...299/...297/234
.600....232/183...258/228...297/221...290/...313/...325/...331/253
.700.....NA/NA....258/236...297/224...297/...321/...335/...347/264

Below was in 2011 using and old set of 906 we had done years before. If you scroll down to the La Roy Engines account you will get a brief description of what these heads can do on an engine that was blown up the day before because Comp Cams forgot to turn the water into the block before firing and running the engine. We ran the engine the following day with water back in the engine and 906 cylinder heads. We had 15 bent valves and 56% leak down in one cylinder. Those heads will still hold water to this day even after getting so hot the paint began burning off the cylinder heads because of no water in them.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-1203-the-amsoil-mopar-muscle-engine-challenge/

http://image.hotrod.com/f/35960380+...ngine-challenge+laroy-engines-group-photo.jpg
"

Thanks Cab , i know its not new news, but
The above is what i wanted to hear,
Noone ever said it would be easy and
noone is handing out buildsheets of how their running
Low 11's on a stock looking motor , and driving their cars on street.
Time and money is scarce.
i Cant r&d for a year to get the right combo. Everyone else already has , i just
need to figure out how to extract the right info.
I appreciate the opinions so far.

Compression is not an option-
I have a 700 horse hemi motor in my 71 gtx now, but its race gas only
and im afraid to find out how streetable its not. It sucks up the fuel like No tomorrow anyways . It is very cool though . For the most part the car does look stock.
And when i get teched - Everyone suspects somethings up.
The hemi needs to get detuned , compression lowered, and
maybe it will be enjoyable on the street. Thats a project for next year- low compression
big balls.
For whatever reason Id like to hover around 1150's and have fun, because noone is competing with The fastest FAST guys unless they have a designated race car.
And my 4000 lb pig is not the car for this.


I wanted to offset the crank, but with the expense ,
I may as well go with a stroker crank .
I agree with the better rods
Everyone has an opinion on which head is better.


Mr Monte-
I generally leave my hood closed at dairy queen.
But its always cool to know that you cleaned someones
clock with all iron parts after they just spent a zillion
bolting on a crapload of shiny stuff from Summit.
and you just did it with cleaned up factory parts.
Those are bragging rights , and its always fun to hear people
say , wow Whats this guy with polyglas tires thinking . Wheres his headers ?

Well if your dead set on stock stroke and manifolds I'd try to get the same cam Bob K put in Scott McKenzie's car, not sure if that's his regular grind or something else...

Yep , i asked Bob for that info ; and hes gotta cam
for me , however theres a little bit of new technology
Out there since Scotties build, i think - i gotta be a touch more
Hp - im heavier than the fatA12 car. But thats the goal .

"noone is handing out buildsheets of how their running
Low 11's on a stock looking motor , and driving their cars on street."

What do you want to know? My engine meets all these criteria save for the exhaust manifolds.

IMHO your best bet for the most hp on the cheap is offset the stock crank to 3.90 for 470 cubes. You said you didn't want to stroke it, but that is a great combo for a stock size port head! The extra stroke will help with a heavy car is a street strip type of setup because the motor will spend a lot of time in the lower rpms of the first half of each gear. Paint the right set of aluminum heads for the look, get good quench of .040 with a reverse dome piston, 7.10 H beams to help with lightening the rotating assembly. ANDYF really liked the Mopar 528 mechanical cam with stock manifolds, so something real close if not that cam. Research where the best gains are on reworking those stock exhaust manifolds. No experience with them here, but I am thinking it might be possible to get some gains by opening up the outlet area and using the right sized pipe for the full exhaus5 system, plus the right CFM flowing mufflers, cross over, etc to keep every Hp you build into the motor.

Hey Andy, Amazing how the time goes so fast.. The car was a purpose built 11 sec stock stroke A12 for street and some track
duties.. I don't know the whole recipe But as stated in the article above it has 11.97 comp, mild head work on 906's, good
internals and 60 over.. The cam is Bob's own not the usual grind.. The engine was never on a dyno I would estimate 525 to 535 hp.. My best et to date is 11.61@ 117.96 with a 172 sixty
on a stock bias ply tire and a 2600 converter..
Good luck with the build.. Scott..

I would run the aluminum 6 pack intake though

Andy, BTW This Last F.A.S.T. race at MIR young Brian with his
71 challenger 493 [pump gas]six pack, Dwayne porter heads.. Was running
low 11.70's almost 119 mph 182 sixty with a four speed.. I would
think with better sixty's should go fifty's..

Hi Scott
I miss drinkin beer with you , we will soon.

So if you had to do it all over , what would you do a little different ?
Bob doesnt remember exactly how he made up your mill.

When I grow up , Im gonna have a car just like yours .

Bragging rights because you spent $1500 on a pair of iron heads that you could have duplicated for $1000 in aluminum?

Oh, well, if that floats your boat.....Better get one of those Purple Shaft cams!

R.

The cam you use on a 12:1 CR motor might be different than what you would use on a 10:1 CR motor. I would think how you manage the blowdown of the exhaust on a 12:1 motor would be a different than on a 10:1 motor, and would be especially sensitive on an exhaust manifold motor.

Scott, what do the heads flow, weight of the car, and the DA at Martin (?), if you don't mind my asking?

Nice running car!

Thanks

Andy, Just call Dwayne... One stop shopping

Its almost like you already know the answer but you want to hear how others would spend your money.

This!

Long time no see Andy.. I wouldn't do anything different.. Very reliable, fast enough for me... I didn't want to go the stroke
route.. Wanted to keep it as real as I can...

Weight around 3900, Head flow? little cleaning good valve job?
DA= 2500 to -200 It will run 12.00 to 11.61 113.00 mph to 118.00..
Thanks..

Yep , just a refresher course and its fun lettin other people spend
the imaginery money on imaginery things.
I Talked to Duane, he can do what I need , just hope the whole combo
gets good results.
-And it doesnt sound like a boatload of cash.
Cheaper to learn from others mistakes if their willin to share.

With the iron heads you may need to cap CR around 9.5:1. If you're married to those iron heads, be sure they're ported well. I would do a MP 528 solid cam, hp manifolds and call it a day. Great street car.

Not quite 500hp, but the 426" in the fury made 458hp on the IMM engine dyno with 9.6:1 pistons.
Brian's port and valve job on stealth heads.
EX275HL hydraulic cam, performer rpm intake and 770 street avenger carb.
If we'd have painted the intake and heads it would look stock. Well, except for the chromed M/T valve covers.

426 Dyno Pull

I guess you dont understand , it was like Scott said
keepin it real .
In the early 70's they didnt have all the new crap and
Cheap stroker kits .
They did ok with the stock stuff .
Used some ingenuity - Lightened creatively and ran 11's.
I dont want to bolt on aftermarket on a real car
- ill do that on a restomod or a daily cruiser.

If i find the extra cash , i might still stroke it , because its a lotta bang .
4000 dollar build goes to 8 fast .

I don't understand the need to bash anyone for using cast iron heads over aluminum, hell I know guys that are hotrodding flatheads. I Would not use the valves, springs etc. that come with the cheaper heads, buy them bear and put good parts in. I personally like being told you can't make power with a set of 915s and you need to have bla bla aluminum heads, only to come up with 620 tq and 645 hp from 3000 to 6500, a great street motor that has and will run to 7K.
To each his own.

Shoot, my cuda ran 11.80s at 112 mph w/ stock untouched (other than a valvejob and new valvesprings) 906 heads on a 10:1 pump gas stock stroke 440 w/ the 509 MP purpleshaft. That was at 3700 lbs in full street trim.
A set of home ported 915s got it down to 11.40s at 117 mph.
It did have an edelbrock performer RPM intake and headers, but ran good for a bunch of junk.

I look at a lot of these aluminum headed strokers running in the 11s and think they're leaving a LOT on the table.

There are no tricks required to getting a stock stroke 440 powered b or e body to run solid 11's if you can do whatever you want to get there......meaning, traditional hot rod stuff.
Intake, headers, slicks, converter, etc.

But..... If you plan to compete in the FAST or F/S series, then the car must be built within the rules...... Meaning no headers or slicks or intake manifold(not a concern with a 6bbl).
It is more of a trick to run 11's with a stock stroke 440 in a b or e body when you have to run exhaust manifolds and bias ply re-pop tires.

Dwayne...By no means was I saying it's easy to go that fast w/ all the stock stuff like exhaust manifolds and what not. I was just referring to some folks that seem to think you need aluminum heads to run 11s in just a hot street car.
If you can rebuild them for a fair price, you can go pretty fast w/ unported iron.

Nobody was really bashing him, just pointing out that it makes no sense money wise, at least until he mentioned FAST racing a few posts later. To make iron heads as good as some of the out of the box alum heads will take a serious outlay of cash. You will end up with WAY more money in the iron heads and they still won't be as good or as reliable.

FAST racing is another animal all together and those heads will be REALLY expensive, plus the fact that max effort ported cast iron heads are prone to cracking.

Someone wants to sink money in ported iron heads, that's obviously their choice but it makes no financial sense in the HP vs money spent debate. Other than to claim you have stock castings. Which sure doesn't matter when you are getting outrun

I already know . Been there , a little.
The car i chose to put a killer hemi in is cool and can be real fast.
Between lack of time and scared to blow a big investment of an engine, - i havent run it
to its fullest potential.
So , if im gonna insure a car , i want to be able to drive it on street.
Id rather play with the fast guys at around 11:50 , thats where its most competitive. Imo.
i learned a little about cracked heads and tryin to hook , etc.
its also fun having a stock appearing car and beating people up at a non fast event.
Not many people see the class and are baffled.

And sorry , i thought i mentioned early enough my in post that
i didnt want super ralph holdin a magnet to my heads .

So what i was hoping this post would lead to was

We already know :
1) that good heads are key
2) 906's are awesome , but might crack
3) im thinkin bob k's cam is sorted out for max vacuum, max performance with stock manifolds.
my stroker i have now with his cam idles like a vw. And the six pack behaves well.
Its his mild cam . The 505 dynoed at 500. Its got stage 2 906's.



But :

Whats a great combo of parts that builds a great engine?
It will be par. decked , line honed , meticulously assembled glyptalled . , etc .

Whos got the best lightest least expensive rods
Whos got a great piston
Whats the best combo for low compression .
Quench , compression , etc etc is interesting.
Coating pistons and raising compression.
Any new info out there ?

Those are the opinions i was hoping to get.

I think that was exactly the opinion that I gave earlier. You are not going to get quench with a 906 unless you use those silly reverse dome things. If you have no choice they are what you should use, but you have options. The 12:1 CR guys are not using reverse domes, but you would have to. Diamond can get their 12 cc dish piston to about 620 grams. You should be able to get away with 10:1 CR, maybe a little more with what I suggested earlier considering on how late your intake closing will probably be.

You Did - so if thats max with stock crank - then i guess im thinkin thats a tad light .

This will be a numbers block , so no chinese rods/pistons
But The chinese crank might be ok .
Its too bad you lose stock pickup with 512 stroker - or NOt ?

With the 2.20 rods, you can still use the stock pickup with the 4.25 crank with no grinding in a 440. Not sure about 400. Get past the Chinese issue. Most are made there but you just need to make sure the quality is good. I suggest Molnar.

Just curious: what gear/converter/exhaust got this done? I'm trying to convert a young brand X guy who is convinced that we can't go 11's with (almost) stock junk.

IMO, a car running 11's with a stroked bb motor and "appropriate" gearing and a 3 speed auto trans doesn't have the motor accelerating at a fast enough rate to see any real benefits from using a rotating assy that has "extra light" parts in it.
I wouldn't spend any extra $$$ on getting parts that are lighter than whatever the std offerings are(which are still much lighter than the OE stuff).

Doing a better job of getting air in and out of the motor will pay off way more than a hundred grams of bob weight will.

Spend the money on a roller cam set up instead of having rotating assy parts made lighter.

While I agree with the above to a point, I am also not going to just ignore it either. In this type build, while I wouldn't go to the expense of billet and profiled milled super light pistons, I am sure not going to just put TRWs in it either. I am always going to do the things that in my mind "make good common sense". Those include a longer, better and probably lighter rod. A better, lighter piston. A smaller pin, better smaller ring packages, etc. That is if I have to BUY parts. Now if I have a garage full of stuff just lying around, sure, I might toss it together. But if I am buying, it's going to be better stuff.

4.10 gear, 28x10 tire, straight from the Summit catalog 10" TCI Street Fighter converter (around 3500 stall), 3" exhaust w/ 2 chamber (40 series) flowmasters. Running open headers never helped.
Had a cheap 830 holley annular double pumper on it, list 9381.

When it ran 11.80s it actually had a 3.91 gear and 26x10 tires. The ported heads caused traction issues (had SS springs then) so I moved up to the 28x10 tire and changed to the 4.10 gear the compensate. That made a HUGE difference in hooking the car up.

In my opinion, going 11s in mid 3000lb car with a mildy warmed over 440 is pretty damn easy. That's a cookie cutter combo as laid out here many times. If yours won't do it, you have something WAY off. I mean it only takes a shade over 400hp to go high 11s in a 3600lb car. That's childs play

I know a bunch of guys with 600 HP with 3200 pound cars running high 11's.


















That is sarcasm. It's hard to type sarcasm.

Agree completely. LOTS of high compression, large inch, alum headed motors out there in cars that won't get out of their own way. It's embarrassing

I did say "stroked", which almost by definition means you'll be using an aftermarket crank, pistons & rods.
What I meant was, I would just use whatever flavor of off the self crank, pistons and rods you liked, and not spend extra $$$ buying lighter versions, or having weight removal options done to them.
A set of Icon, Ross, Diamond, etc, off the shelf stroker pistons are hundreds of grams lighter than oem 440 pistons. Spending money to make them even lighter, in this type of build, will definitely not provide a very good return in ET improvement vs dollars spent.

Id love to have the thing rev as fast as a ferrari
But im not sure thats the ticket with skinny tires.
But maybe itll have lower torque, but more HP?
Sleeper car -- not dot drag radials ..

What is your budget?

That tough question -
Dont want ( shouldnt spend) a 10,000 dollar engine .
4k , i thought originally - nic assembly , machining .
But looks like i can quickly be 6-8 reluctantly

Are you against 440 source stealth heads?

Your biggest issue will be the exhaust manifolds.. spend
the money to have them extruded honed... look at good muffs
and make sure you use mandrel bent exhaust... dont know if
you can move the mufflers to the back bumper but the exhaust
is cooler that far back and is easier to get cooler exhaust
thru the muffs... also as far as FAST guys.. most of those
guys are running strokers..it only has to look stock.. if
you make TQ then you just need to control it... I would
rather have to control the TQ than not have it.... JMO

The exhaust manifolds and repop bias ply tires, and to some degree the iron heads, adds a significant amount to the build cost if the goal is mid-11's.

I always figure that what ever you think you will spend just double it and that will put you in the ballpark. Or at least it seems to always end up that way for me. I know I just bought a basic stroker kit that was $2k and then the full TTI exh was $600 without mufflers as I went with Dyno-Max Ultra-Flows as I knew I would not uncap my car and wanted a good flowing muffler. But the exh was close to $1000 and thats not including headers but you will be using manifolds. When I added in my heads and flat tappet cam which I got for a very good fair price from Dwayne Porter its easy to spend up near or over 6K before all the little things are bought. I bought aluminum heads but if you have iron heads worked for what you want to run you will spend a chunk to have a good set of iron heads. Even if you build your own eng its easy to spend 6k or over just in parts for a mild stroker using a basic kit. Good luck with it and hope you can keep the cost within your budget so you can enjoy it. Ron

I wouldn't want to spend the $$$ to get a set of max ported 906s that would turn into expensive door stops when they developed cracks.

Assuming all you have on hand is a rebuildable 440 core, the complete 6-pak set up, and the correct tin and exhaust manifolds....... To buy the parts and have the machine work done, engine assembled and dynoed by a reputable builder...... I'd say it's easily in the $10,000 range.
Assemble it yourself, no dyno, maybe a flat tappet instead of a roller....... Knock a couple grand off.

This is assuming you're building a FAST legal motor and are pretty set on your mid-11 second goal.

You'll still need a good exhaust system, fuel system, decent trans, converter and gears.

I have a similar rule that I use. The "motor" is only about half of the total overall cost.

I don't know if you can get the 475 hp motor I described earlier with an $8,000 budget

This wasnt supposed to be about the money.

But in a nutshell :

Crank
Rod
Pistons
$ 2200 +-
Std Gaskets / misc
$100
Oil pump
$ 100
Heads
$ 2500
Pushrods
$ 200
Cam / lifters
$ 400
Dyno
$ 450
Misc hardware
$ 200
Roller rockers / shAfts
$ 600
Hi vol Fuel pump
$ have

$6900 - $ 7200 yep adds up quick


Rest of stuff I have
Car ,with pro trAns and exhaust
Flexplate
Carbs
Intake
Manifolds - clean polish in house
Paint
Beer / barter for assembly / machining

Yep its a money pit. To most people this would be 10k all day.

This was a 511 low deck stroker w Stage 6 heads, mild solid flat tappet, Indy dual plane intake and obviously, exaust manifolds. 3800 lb car went 11.50's with a quick fuel 950 carb. Would have been easy 10's with more cam and headers, and no additional cost. At the time I thought it was cool because it looked stock, in retrospect I should have just added the power. Its more fun going faster. Cost in 2005 was 8-10k, I forget exactly.

I've always heard that extrude honing exhaust manifolds was just an expensive way to get 5 to 8 hp.

It wouldn't even be on my "to do" list.

If you think about it, its not bad at all.. lets
say you gain 20-25 hp with headers.. but if you
have to run manifolds and you get 8-10 hp of of
the extruded ones thats a good percentage of a
what the header did... but yes its a bit pricey
but that stuff takes time to do

Obviously, different combos will yield different results.
I know someone with a pretty good running sb mopar in FAST that tested stock manifolds vs extrude honed ones back to back on the chassis dyno.
With his combo, it was basically worth nothing.

I've found this myself.


If the manifold is at its limit power wise, most anything won't help it.

A bunch of circle track guys were doing it back in the mid 90's. Never found anything on the dyno or track with those particular manifolds, which were some GM junk.

That's the same I've seen. I used to build some roundy round engines for a few locals and they've tried some things w/ exhaust manifolds...none of them proved to be worth it.
Got to where all I'd do was gasket match the manifold to the head and then open it up at the collector flange.

Dwayne - I remember talking to you when I was building the 511 with the exhaust manifolds. To quote you, I think you said (first) "why would you want to use those things", and second you said "don't waste your time trying to make them flow better". I did end up gasket matching them. It made me feel good.

I'm not against fixing any obvious port mismatch problems, or opening the manifold outlets as much as the pipes you're planning on using will accommodate.
But pumping abrasive slurry through exhaust manifolds doesn't seem to be a cost effective way to gain power in most of these applications.

I'd use that money somewhere that will make a difference...... Like a roller cam instead of a flat tappet.

Tony's 511 used aftermarket heads, and the port exits were likely larger than the OE manifolds, so making sure the manifolds were at least as big as the heads was a good move there(of course this assumes you can't bring yourself to running headers).

When I opened up the manifolds it seemed like where I needed to remove the most for aligning with the head's exhaust port window was where the manifold had the least amount of material, i.e. at the top. I removed some material from the top but was a little concerned at how thin it was getting. The good news is that the manifold's stud clearance holes are pretty big, so I installed the manifolds in the most up position and matched even with the head.Of course, this was with a ported aluminum head.

That Charger is still one of the coolest sleepers on this board.

Absolutely!!

It's not only that it has the sleeper look, but the stock 12" converter and 3.23's really top it off.

Yes...LOVE that Charger! Really fun to see these numbers applied to one car:

4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter 11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Thanks guys.

It is a little embarrassing to have gone so long without running the car. Started my next motor project a few years ago, but life got in the way.

Then there is my "brain bench racing": Drop that same drive train in a 3500# b body and...KABOOM...knocking on the 10 second door. Knocking loud on it, too. Holy smokes!!!

Love the Charger too. It was part of the inspiration for building my car. I'm still picking away at e.t.

Who's got time anymore? If if you're like me, I had a couple kids years ago and my car time came to a halt. It's still nice to know there is some me-time in the garage. Whats the lowdown on the engine you are building?

What??? No way!!! Really???

If you're a full second -- or more -- slower than the quickest cars in the class, what's the point of building it F.A.S.T. legal?

So... you pull up to me at a non-F.A.S.T. event in your street-legal car and me in my car which I drove 100 miles to the track on DOT-legal drag radials. You run your target 11.5 and I run 10.5 -- if not quicker with my new combination -- and gap you by 10 cars. We both drive them home.

I understand the appeal of having a stock looking car that's also quick on the track. But IMO, your scenario is the worst of both worlds. And it still won't be cheap.

I know, it's crazy

Its the worst scenario when youre hi compression and u cant drive 100 miles.
If was racing you id take the slicks outta my trunk at the non fAst event and hopefully run a 10.5. Lol

So he can run at F.A.S.T. events ???

There is always going to be someone faster and it takes CUBIC dollars to be near the top of the heap in F.A.S.T. . For a lot less you can be in the middle and make more passes in a shootout type format.

The best time I've had racing in recent memory was at the Pure Stock Drags running for bragging rights in a best 2 out of 3 scenario. I hope to be making passes again ... finally ... in 2017 ...

OK, my comments came across pretty harsh.

I'd actually rather have a nice Pure Stock (or whatever that class is called these days), but even some of those rules the last time I read them struck me as a bit messed up.

Thanks for all the replies guys .

I guess the sweet recipe is theres no replacement for displacement
The more you spend on heads the more power
The story never changed.

Yep , theres a few that squeaked close to 500 with a stock crank.
But no telling what compression was or how radical the cam was.

So i guess the moral of the story is -
If you wanna run on pump gas
Design a high quench 9:1 design
Big cubes and just suck up the costs ..

To be continued ..

Oh yeah, feel free to suggest any black friday sales on the stuff i left off my build sheet budget ..lol

Happy Thanksgiving everyone

"Mid-11's" to me is 11.40-11.70.

To run those times in a 3800lb car, repro bias tires, exhaust manifolds, ported stock heads, flat tappet cam, pump gas..... That's a pretty tall order.

There are a very choice few that can run FAST or SUPERCAR legal that run in the 10's or the VERY few that cracked the 9's. I get to race with Ralph and his SUPERCAR SERIES.His group has guys from the 10's to 16's.They always get 5 or 6 passes in on any given day and they are a GREAT group to hang with at the track. I wouldn't worry so much about being the fastest,but be as fast as your wallet will let you!!

You can make 500 +HP (+ or - 3 to 6 HP) with a set of mildly ported 906 heads with a decent set of 2,14 intake valves and 1.81 exhaust valves with 9.5 to 1 comp ratio and a 850 CFM or bigger Holley or other decent Holley type 4150 type carb. double pumper carb. and a decent hydraulic lifter cam with 260 + degrees at .050 on either 108 or 110 LSA installed at 2 to 6 degrees advanced on the intake lobes

LOL .. its fun to be with the FAST or Super Guys .
Im detuning .. the wallet already go ts shriveled on the first Hemi Build - the sale of Ralphs Ugly green car funded my first Engine build ..

The way I see it, there's basically two ways to approach it.

-build to the specific performance goal you have in mind. Meaning, build a powerful enough motor and equip the car with the correct support equipment to reach you goal...... Or

-build what you can afford and be happy with however fast that amount of money will get you.