Manual brakes/steering, to be or not to be? That is the Q

I'm really on the fence about this. I am likely going to need a vacuum pump for my 340 to power the brakes with the solid roller in the 245 int/250ex duration range. I am also going to have to get a little creative with my alternator mounting with swapping over to a GM 3 140amp 3 wire and mounting it to D side with my P/S to keep the procharger on the passenger side.

The vacuum pump isn't a big deal, but it got me thinking of weight. My steering box is also a little sloppy and my bank account is near empty LOL. I am really contemplating just going to a manual master cylinder and swap to manual steering.

How do you guys feel about doing this on a street car? How much weight does manual everything save over power everything? I have skinnies up front so I figure steering it shouldn't be THAT hard, but I really don't want to feel I'm getting a work out every time I drive the car and I don't want the brakes to scare me (more than a tiny front disk/rear drum setup on a high powered car already will anyway).

The main thing stopping me from just trying it out is that it appears some dummy fiberglassed the whole brake booster into the firewall, so I am a little worried at what I am going to find if I try to rip that out. If I did the swap, I am pretty sure I could make whatever money I spend on the box and master on selling my old parts, and I save $250 on a vacuum pump.

I have a manual box and manual brakes on the '63.

I really like it and it drives nice. I do take corners wide since the installation of a spool. I even installed the 1 1/8" bore master cylinder as I like a really firm pedal and short throw.

It really boils down to personal preference.

I converted my car to manual disc for this very reason. No way would I use a master cylinder bore as big as 1.125. IIRC I used a 15/16 bore and th for stops better then ever.

ran a vacuum pump for a number of years , went through 3 or 4 . Last time around went manual brake , booster also failed , - why did I wait so long . Took power steer out about 3 years ago , rebuilt a spare aluminium steering box .
This is in a 68 Satellite , drive it daily plus strip use . No problems , I do have factory size steering wheel and 185 front radials .Steering is still quite light .Disc/drum brakes are fine and never worry about pump failing again .


Tex

I would want to pull the MCand Booster off any way to see why it was fiberglassed over. I don't want ot be pushing a brake pedal against a master cylinder that was attached to a rusted out firewall.
AND I changed my steering over to manual for header clearance. 'Already had manual brakes. 70 Challenger 440 4 speed and it stears OK.
Good luck

Geebus, I'm tired. Didn't even see the fiberglass part. That makes my pooter pucker to think of what could be wrong.

Thanks all! I am really considering this now. what else would have to be done with the manual box? Does it use the same pitman arm/centerlink?

As for the firewall, when I started sanding it away there were definitely some swiss cheesed areas covered with bondo. I started welding up patches and gave up after a while realizing that the more I sanded, the more it looked like i'd have to just replace the whole
firewall and likely cowl too. It was nothing major, just small areas here and there with tiny holes that looked like they were exposed from media blasting then bondo'd over. The area around the booster, I don't really know what is going on there but I will have to take a closer look. Whatever it is, It is solid as a rock as I could put my weight on the booster and i'm not seeing any flex around the firewall. I hate having shoddy work on my car like that, but I plan to do a full resto in a few years when I can build a new garage so it is more or less temporary. I already painted up the whole
engine bay, booster, bent lines etc...which is why i'm a little on the fence about messing with that now. It is beginning to seem like a better idea than going to a vacuum pump though. Lighter and cleaner too.


I hate to open up another can of worms...but something tells me there may be a lot of cutting/welding/grinding/repainting/rebending in my future in regards to the firewall and master cyl lol

I switched from power to manual steering on my Charger and thought the steering effort wasn't objectionable at all. You'll be fine.

You do need an adapter for the column to stering box from what I remember, not sure if there are any different solutions now but they were required in the mid 2000's. Think the pitman arm was the same, but am not sure.

On the brakes... factory setup manual disc brakes can work fine with generous area in the OE type single piston front calipers and a fairly small MC diameter. If you use aftermarket calipers with smaller piston area brake pedal force can be excessive and a problem.

There are a number of posts on this plus my own experience with Cobra calipers. They work great with a dual diaphragm 8" booster and 15/16" master... which they needed.

Also, if you switch to manual, the pedal linkage needs swapped also for more leverage.

My 63 is manual steering and honestly I am surprised how easy it turns. The only time I realize its manual steering is if I parallel park and its still not hard to turn.
I run my stock power drum bakes also on my 63 and they work fine for me. Ron

73 Dart Sport had manual brakes and power steering? I put discs on the back and LOVE the brakes in this car! I recently changed to manual steering for header clearance. It was a bit of a PITA. I ended up with a $200 Flaming River coupler which worked bitchen but I would have rather just used what I had. The factory coupler wouldn't come out of the hole and attach to the box without hitting the header. I used a box from a 65 Sport Fury with no pitman arm issues. The issue was the steering shaft is 3/4 diameter with 36 splines. The power box had a 5/8 diameter 36 spline. The column shaft needed to be about 2-1/2 inches longer. The car has 215 60R15's on the front so stationary turning sucks with a Tuff wheel. I love the feel of it going down the road though. Little bit of understeer just like I like it.

E body with manual disc/drum brakes. Originally had power steering, but it developed a chronic leak. Swapped to manual box and the weight loss was 38#, as I recall.

Yeah, it's harder to steer at low speeds, but that's the tradeoff.

I have manual drums on my car and swapped the power steering for manual. It really isn't that hard to turn the wheel as long as you are rolling, gets harder in a parking lot of course but its definitely manageable. I used the same pitman arm but firm feel sells a different one for power and manual steering. The box I put in is really whipped, so was planning to get a rebuilt one from firm feel and order their "manual steering" pitman arm. Not sure what the difference is really.

OK, so I am going to work on pricing out what is needed for the steering to see if that will be cost effective. If I could fit the p/s pump with no issues, there really isn't any benefit to going manual except for the weight savings.

For the brakes though, I'd really much rather NOT use a vacuum pump. So far, from what I gather, I will need the manual backing plate and possibly a new pedal assembly (this one I am not so sure on, some people say there was a different pedal assembly for manual and others say there isn't).

My master cylinder has 3699263 stamped on the bottom with the chrysler pentastar. I really can't find anything about this other than one post on google stating that it may be from a late 70's Volare with manual disc brakes. If that's the case, possibly I could re-use the master with manual brakes? I can't find any info on the bore size though.

With those "skinnys" up front I don't think I would want the boosted brakes up front. Manual steering will give a better feel of the road too, and won't be hard as you think, not as darty or much wander. Stay away from the small steering wheel, makes it harder to steer with manual.

Effort increase swapping to manual isn't a big deal; the car will be less "tossable" as far as the steering, but will be more calm on the highway.
My Hemi RR with 265/50 front tires & all manual was a bit of a workout to parallel park, but on the road it was fine. I didn't mind the effort to slow it from triple-digit speeds as its 11" drum brakes had good feel.
My early B-bodies with BB & again all manual (discs on one of them) were a piece of cake even parking, the disc car was fine, good braking feel.
My Duster SB drag car is all manual, lots of + caster, more work to steer & dinky drums (old SS car), but can still lock the front skinnies, which of course I avoid.
My street/strip BB Duster is all manual, discs on front; no problem steering, minor effort parking with caster @ 5+ (A/M upper arms), braking feel is very good.
I'd guess the weight between PS & PB vs manual to be around 50 lbs, and all of it in the wrong place. It's also nice to not have that stuff in the way or as a possible future repair.

Manual steering, you won't regret.
The brakes..... Well.
I used to roll around in a 340 duster with manual brakes. It had discs up front which were a bonus, but it was stressful in city traffic. You need more than other cars for space to stop, but guess what. That space is big enough that in the city, someone always moves their car into it.
I can think of one time I brought the car to a 45 degree angle stopping for a pedestrian who stepped out when I was 100' away. I was probably doing 35-40mph and that poor girl nearly got herself killed when I come screeching to a halt.

I would keep the power brakes just because it offers one good use before it goes away due to the cam. That one stop makes all the difference.
Or add the vaccume pump. I've never tried it myself, I just always kept the power brakes and dealt with the picking the pedal up off the floor in rush hour.
It's a street car, it's gotta do street car things, it's one thing to have a car that's a handful when you are on the go pedal, but it's a completely different thing to have a car that's a handful on the Whoa pedal. Not rear ending people is always cool. Lol

I converted a 1968 or 1969 GTX (CRS disease on the year ) from power brakes and steering to manual for NHRA stock class racing back in the mid 1970s, I got a standard brake pushrod from another Mopar at a junkyard with standard brakes and ended up taking the steering shaft out of the steering column and had it extended up inside where it couldn't be seen That car had a spacer adapter on the power booster with some mechanical linkage inside it from the pushrod from the brake pedal up to another pushrod going into the master cylinder I reused that stock master cylinder and we never had issues stopping that car with a 440 motor and later with a 426 hemi motor in it with tall, skinny, front bias ply tires on the car. The owners wife normallydrove it also, she weighed under 120 llbs and she didn't need to go to the gym to work on her legs to stop that car AKA aside, it stop good at or above 115+ MPH in the 1/4 mile
As far as the Pitman arm on the steering boxes they may interchange, if not you can still probally buy a new one from NAPA for your car, more than likely

I have manual discs on my Fury, still might not have the right MC, it's a bit firm to stop but it does stop.
I don't have the biggest arms on this board by a long shot, but they aren't exactly small, and I find manually steering for real daily driving a chore with any kind of real tire. To the Friday cruise in or to drive to the track, sure, but if you take your kids to swim lessons, get the groceries, and commute in it like I do, I think you'll hate manual steering.

And that Charger that Nick put manual steering into has power back in it :P

I like cars with manual everything, disc brakes on front.


You brake pedal is the same power and manual brake, you will need a manual brake pushrod and firewall support plate.

I have manual steering and brakes on my Savoy and wouldn't have it any other way. I have 73 Charger discs up front and Wilwood Dynalite in the rear with a Strange MC and my brakes feel confident at 100 MPH
I figure the less moving parts the less chance of failure
Gus

All of my A-body sb and most of my B-body bb were manual steering/brakes. I converted my '67 R/T to manual steering from PS. As mentioned, the only time you'll really notice it is sitting still and even then it's minor unless you have a small steering wheel. Never had a problem on any car with stopping because of manual brakes (had a booster go out once on a DD- now that made for a scarey ride until I could get it home ) .
We currently are running a '71 Charger bb street car with manual steering/brakes and 205-75/15s on 15x4s on the front. Only thing I might change is to take the 11" drums off the front and convert to disc.



Tim

If I can do it on this car with no problems, so can you. You can buy all the master adapter stuff from Jegs. Try using the stock power brake master first before you start screwing around with different bore sizes. A manual P/S box will require a longer steering shaft ( I made mine). No big deal.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Nice job!