Moparts

Oops...goodbye pistons

Posted By: ZIPPY

Oops...goodbye pistons - 02/10/09 07:45 PM

Tuning errors can be costly

2007 5.7L Hemi, bone stock with a supercharger on it.
Do you think it might have had too much timing?

Attached picture 5015156-5.7hemipiston.jpg
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 07:50 PM

man thats ugly. what happened?
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 08:01 PM

First it lifted the top ring land, then the piece bounced around in there and tore things up. It did that in two cylinders on the odd side...this is the worst one.

Luckily everything else looks OK for the most part. One quench pad on one head did get chewed up slightly, but it looks like it might be OK with a little finessing and smoothing out.....although brand new (factory aluminum) heads are dirt cheap....only about $200 with springs and valves...I might not bother even looking at them.

A set of pistons and probably rods (the bearings don't fit tightly in the rods, so you know this thing detonated) and it'll likely be good to go again. I don't think these powdered metal rods can be resized so they're probably junk.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 08:17 PM

I hate to see things like that happen. To bad you can't go back and run a computer program to see what went wrong and why.
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 09:25 PM

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure the knock sensor didn't/couldn't pull enough timing out of it?

Edit: changed the subject line...didn't realize it was only one word.

What is the usual cause of the ring lands breaking off? I'm assuming detonation but haven't broken enough parts to know. I think I will rebuild the thing most likely with forged pistons, but I don't plan on a blower like the previous owner had.
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 10:13 PM

That's nothing unusual for the new hemi's with any power adder. The top ring is so close to the dome they break easily.
My buddy did the same thing with 3psi of boost.

Posted By: Adobedude

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 10:17 PM

GS Motorsports?
Posted By: CH3NO2

Re: Oops...goodbye pistons - 02/10/09 10:19 PM

what was the ring gap?
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Oops - 02/10/09 10:32 PM

Both Butting of the rings and or detonation can break the ring lands. With Detonation there is usually tell tale signs as in Specking of the pistons and quench pads. I cant tell from the pics if there is any specking because of all the scrappnel damage. But there could be. mike
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Oops...goodbye pistons - 02/10/09 10:57 PM

think that's bad? you should see the #3 I have from my old 440 I was only pushing 6psi on cast pistons...well I did forget to turn on the aux electric fuel pump. It cooked quick.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 12:40 AM

Quote:

With Detonation there is usually tell tale signs as in Specking of the pistons and quench pads. I cant tell from the pics if there is any specking because of all the scrappnel damage. But there could be. mike



this was my thaught.and what did the plug look like?
bummer about the parts!
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 12:55 AM

Been there, done that. KB Hyper pistons + too lean =

Attached picture 5016129-Piston.jpg
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Oops...goodbye pistons - 02/11/09 01:10 AM

Quote:

what was the ring gap?




I've seen the top ring gaps vary from .009" to .011" on these new Hemi's which is not very boost friendly and usually the #3 piston will be the first one to go.
Posted By: TrWaters

Re: Oops...goodbye pistons - 02/11/09 03:22 AM

I know they make rod bearings with a larger OD for the "other" makes of engines with powdered metal rods. Not sure on Mopar.
I have piles of used 5.7 parts if needed.
Posted By: 10sec440

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 05:28 AM

Quote:

That's nothing unusual for the new hemi's with any power adder. The top ring is so close to the dome they break easily.
My buddy did the same thing with 3psi of boost.








Been there, done that. He did nothing wrong. The ring land is 3mm from the top of the piston to prevent hydrocarbons from being trapped in there. GS Motorsports warns that anything over 6 psi must have replacement (forged) pistons installed.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 05:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

That's nothing unusual for the new hemi's with any power adder. The top ring is so close to the dome they break easily.
My buddy did the same thing with 3psi of boost.








Been there, done that. He did nothing wrong. The ring land is 3mm from the top of the piston to prevent hydrocarbons from being trapped in there. GS Motorsports warns that anything over 6 psi must have replacement (forged) pistons installed.




I wouldent doubt that this is most likly the case, just from digesting all the above info. mike
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 12:58 PM

looks like detonation killed it. i had a 340 that would ping if it didnt drink the 93 and my girlfriend at the time didnt believe me- she used 87 octane gas CAUSE IT WAS CHEAPER. 3 months later, my piston looked like that as well. turns out that 87 octane cost me a bunch more
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 01:10 PM

Quote:

my girlfriend at the time didnt believe me- she used 87 octane gas CAUSE IT WAS CHEAPER.




Women....
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 02:41 PM

Quote:

Both Butting of the rings and or detonation can break the ring lands. With Detonation there is usually tell tale signs as in Specking of the pistons and quench pads. I cant tell from the pics if there is any specking because of all the scrappnel damage. But there could be. mike





Too tight of ring gap is a good point. The "good" pistons that are left in it (that didn't have any shrapnel hit them) don't show any signs of specks taken out of them. So the rings probably butted together, then?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 02:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Both Butting of the rings and or detonation can break the ring lands. With Detonation there is usually tell tale signs as in Specking of the pistons and quench pads. I cant tell from the pics if there is any specking because of all the scrappnel damage. But there could be. mike





Too tight of ring gap is a good point. The "good" pistons that are left in it (that didn't have any shrapnel hit them) don't show any signs of specks taken out of them. So the rings probably butted together, then?




if the bearings are hammered and fallout of the caps, it was detonating. it's very possible that detonation AND the rings butting together took place.
Posted By: Georg

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 02:56 PM

lucky one
check this out - http://usaraud.ee/?id=15_47_48_72&ll=3
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 07:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Both Butting of the rings and or detonation can break the ring lands. With Detonation there is usually tell tale signs as in Specking of the pistons and quench pads. I cant tell from the pics if there is any specking because of all the scrappnel damage. But there could be. mike




Too tight of ring gap is a good point. The "good" pistons that are left in it (that didn't have any shrapnel hit them) don't show any signs of specks taken out of them. So the rings probably butted together, then?




if the bearings are hammered and fallout of the caps, it was detonating. it's very possible that detonation AND the rings butting together took place.




Maybe I exaggerated a little, Dan....the bearings don't actually fall right out of the caps (or the rod itself), and the wear surfaces actually appear to be really nice, but they seem to fit a little loose. For example when a rod bearing is seated in the cap, I can move it around with one finger.

I should probably practice with my el cheapo dial bore gauge and see if the rod big ends are still round, and at least try to inspect it properly....but I already have a new set of rods on the way, so I was going to just use them.

But in the interest of trying to learn something....if there is no "specking" on any of the pistons, is it fair to assume (for now) it did not detonate? I'll post a closeup pic of one of the "good" pistons for visual aid if that helps.
Posted By: Discoquik

Re: Oops - 02/11/09 08:51 PM

Very common on New Hemis.

Wiseco offers a number of new Hemi Parts that eliminates this very common problem on these engines.

The topland is moved way up on the OE piston for emissions purposes. Not good for boosted applications. Our parts come with a GFX ring pack that has a 1.2 Gas Nitrided Top and Napier second. Skirts are coated too.

vellinger@wiseco.com
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Oops - 02/12/09 02:04 AM

It may be fair to say that if you see no specking that there may of been no detonation. But if all the combustion surfaces were really clean and fresh its possible that you may see no evidence of detonation specking.


It seems from alot of what was posted is that those stock Hemi pistons have a very thin ring land at the top. And ring land breakage is a common problem with foced induction even at mild levels.

As Dram/Dan stated hammered bearings are also a sign of detonation. But like you said you may of unintentionally exaggerated that.

Detonation because it happens at the piston will sometimes beat up the piston at the wristpins also if it doesnt break the lands or piston face first. But it will and can carry its force all the way to bearings too.

Im not sure you have a Det problem, I think its the OEM pistons and boost. But I wouldent rule out the det completly just yet.

I look forward to the pics of the undamaged pistons. mike
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/12/09 03:20 PM

Thanks Mike. I will take some when I get a chance.

They definitely aren't clean, there's carbon and a little oil visible (which I also have heard is common w/new Hemis). I will take a couple shot of one before and after cleaning.
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Oops - 02/12/09 08:22 PM

Quote:

Thanks Mike. I will take some when I get a chance.

They definitely aren't clean, there's carbon and a little oil visible (which I also have heard is common w/new Hemis). I will take a couple shot of one before and after cleaning.




Do you plan on putting the blower back on after the rebuild?
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/12/09 09:21 PM

No more blower for this poor thing.
It's been through enough.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Oops - 02/12/09 09:23 PM

Ouch!
Posted By: hemidup

Re: Oops - 02/12/09 10:43 PM

Quote:

No more blower for this poor thing.
It's been through enough.




Thats good to hear since there isn't any true tuning for these new Hemi's just yet. The LX cars have a better handle on the tuning, but the trucks are a different story.
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 01:23 AM

Yeah, tuning any of the modern stuff can be a pain.

When I get this one rebuilt I'm thinking about putting a carburetor on it, and firing it with the MSD multi-coil box so I can tune it myself. Not sure what it's going into yet but am kicking around some ideas.
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 01:38 AM

Here are some more shots.

Good piston before cleanup. As folks said, the top ring is indeed very close to the top of the piston.

Attached picture 5021192-5.7piston3.jpg
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 01:39 AM

Same piston. I can tell she was burning a little oil, but that's about all I see.

Attached picture 5021194-5.7piston4.jpg
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 01:41 AM

Same one, after 5 minutes with carb cleaner and a rag. It has some lint on it from the rag...

Still don't really see anything terribly wrong.

Attached picture 5021201-5.7piston5.jpg
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 01:43 AM

Straight on shot, same one

Attached picture 5021208-5.7piston6.jpg
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 01:44 AM

All the rod bearings look like this one, almost good enough to reuse.

Should I bother checking a ring gap or two, or is it more of a piston strength/top ring land design issue? After a second look, I see what guys are talking about when they say the top ring land is very thin.

I've never broken anything this bad before...it was broke when I got it, and I was hoping to learn something from the autopsy before feeding the dumpster.



Attached picture 5021210-5.7rod1.jpg
Posted By: Sport440

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 03:33 AM

Quote:

Same piston. I can tell she was burning a little oil, but that's about all I see.




Zippy, while this picture might not be the picture perfect example of detonation specking, it is good enough to show it IMO. The piston is also heavily oil carbonized to show oil leakage into the combustion chamber.

Witch by itself is a promoter of detonation. The Specking associated with detonation can be best described as a break in a uniform coating of carbon on the pistons surface.

The specks will be silver pinsize potholes to the pistons surface through the carbonized covered sufaced. Looking like silver Specks, Witch your piston displays IMO from the pics as best as I can see.

But in a cleaner burning engine the specks will be more dramatically distinguished compared to yours.

I think you were lucky, you didnt take out the whole motor. Just some pistons, and well, some head stuff. And like stated those ring lands are pretty thin. mike


EDIT, I see you stated it was broke when you got it. And you are just doing the autopsy,
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Oops - 02/13/09 11:56 AM

Thanks, sounds like a little bit of everything killed it then. It lived 10,000 miles with the blower and from the sound of the posts here, it was lucky to have run that long.

The car that had this motor in it got a new factory longblock and had the timing kicked back, so I guess it won't be long before we find out if it's going to happen again. From what folks are saying here, it's probably a matter of time...

In the past I've pulled down domed piston/small cam 383s that were run on pump gas, and I could see tiny flecks of material were taken out of the piston....but they were cleaner burning as you said and didn't show signs of oil.

From your description, light detonation on an oil burner will take little pieces of the oil/carbon gunk off the piston before any aluminum gets taken out? I didn't know that. Always good to learn a little something, thanks!
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