B1 MC heads for a 500" RB

I need some help determining if I can run B1 MC heads on a factory 440 block with a 4.375 or less bore (currently 4.350). Other than shrouding, any issues with interference with the 2.4 Int valves?
Thanks

Not really what your asking but those heads will flow way beyond what a stock block will handle hp wise. And at 500" you'll have to turn the piss out of it

Stock block required for the class. I plan billet aluminum caps and a girdle to shore up the bottom end, wanting to get 900 or so out of it. Just need to know if the 2.4" intake valves will work in a 4.350 bore AND if they'll be worse than smaller valves for a 500" bullet. I am buying used heads if they'll work, thanks.

Dude, buy yourself a good 400 block to start with, no amount of bandaids are going to fix that stock 440 block main webbing I've seen 440 blocks break and crack the main webbing between the cylinders at 700 HP with good parts

Cab,
It's a rule in his class to have an original block for the year car he is racing. Any idea if a 4.350 bore will fit a 2.400 intake valve?

No idea at all, sorry.

Should clear fine...........if it won't, notch the bore. Not the first time that's had to be done. And with the right cam, you WON'T have to spin it to the moon to make it run.

As for stock block rule.........tell em its a 383 car.......LOL!!!

I can use any factory block size that was available in the car. It doesn't have to be the correct year, but I can't use a 400 or 360 block for instance in a 1969 car.
Thanks for the replies.

A grinder and JB weld makes "383" numbers on the side of the block rather easily if anyone gets nosy..

Call Koffels. Just testing by hand I've had 2.30 valves hit a 4.375 bore at .680" lift in factory iron heads. Original B1 have the valves moved a small amount, don't know about the B1 MC heads.

Thanks Jim

Good point!

Consider a center weighted crank. It greatly reduces the stress shifted to the inner bearings because the counter weights are more in line with the forces they are offsetting. I saw the cap walk go away in a Megablock I have when I went to a center weighted crank, and the bob weight is 2432, pretty heavy. The cost difference is around 2500 for a crower, been a long time since I bought mine so it may be higher, but worth every dime for a project like yours. If you can use a 400 block, and lighten the rotating assembly as much as possible, the deal might live a decent life.

Thanks Greg

The center counter weighted crankshaft makes good sense. I wasn't thinking about that this morning, but have heard a lot people say what Greg just did.

Have you considered doing Darton sleeves? I know in a normal build it doesn't make sense but for a stock block class that you're obviously set on kill for it might make sense. Btw, there have been legit reports of 383's using 400 castings when the crossover was happening........I think for warranty blocks they used 400 castings. A 400 with Darton sleeves would get it done

I'm unfamiliar with the term "center weighted crank".

Can someone please explain?

Good stuff, thanks fellas, keep it coming!

Center counter weighted. Notice all of the counterweights are the same size.

That sure is pretty Polished and lightweight, maybe not a ultra lightweight, but lighter than ones I've weighed Tom, how long is the stroke on this one?

It's the one in my 604 Predator Cab. The stroke is 4.625.

Defintely go with a centercounter weight crank if the budget allows. They can be WAY lighter also if budget allows. If you have an interference problem then as suggest notch the bores, it is done al the time. 900 with an MC head should be pretty easy. Honestly a set of originals will get that done as well.

Can you expand on this with some general specs? Not doubting, just curious and am wondering.

We did a b1 Original motor last year that made peak power at 7000, would not call that spinning it to the moon by any means. I know Jess on here ran a 500" B1 stock block deal in his Dart for years and never spun it hard either. I also have a B1 original head deal here that I have as a spare that made peak at 7200 at 1004 HP.

What? Bore notching or rpms?...........If you are referring to rpms, for some reason it has become accepted that large heads require big rpm to work and that simply isn't the case. It's all about getting the cam and events right.

The 446 I had in my GTX had B-1 MCs. That motor ran great, made good power and never saw 8000 rpm

What cam duration , lift and lsa worked well in the smaller motors? Care to share?

What kind of hp were you making? I've just always thought to get the most hp potentialout of a head you can (Max hp deal, what I'm assuming the OP is after) it needs, for lack of a better term, to be "worked" to a certain point, there's a formula that incorporates cross section, cu in, and rpm (preaching to the choir here). For a given cross section and displacement, you'll need to turn x rpm to get max hp, that's all I was getting at. I'm sure the formula is a generalization as well. Not doubting you can't get big hp with mild displacement without having to spin it to the moon, but to get max hp wouldn't you have to buzz it pretty hard?

What ci was the spare motor

Same motor in the valiant you had ?

Good Lawd that is purty!

Man, that crankshaft is artwork! I can get a billet center weighted crankshaft from Ohio Crankshaft for $1650. I will build the engine to turn 8500 or so if it makes power there, but will be happy to turn much less. Any recommendations on cam selection will be helpful. The heads I got from Tom have individual T&D rockers, so I should be good there. TTI builds headers for B1 heads in a B-body, so I plan to run those. They are 2 1/8" to 2 1/4" step with 4" merge collectors. That oughta do it. Planning to run with a 1250 Dominator I have due to the high DA of 7700'. Thoughts?

By the way, that Ohio Crankshaft has no register on the back, just a flat surface. I assume this is no problem and it will register on the bolts? Thanks

Anybody try to put over 900hp through a Viper 6-speed? Not on a dragstrip, but in a Bonneville Salt Flats type environment? Thanks

I think the traction on the sand would be better with a converter, and you don't want to use just the bolts to locate the flexplate or flywheel. You have someone make you a plug that goes into the back of the crankshaft the same size as the collar on your forged crankshaft that locates the flexplate/flywheel. I'm sure Ohio Crankshaft can make one.

Keith Black Enterprises, 562-869-1518, makes and sells a billet steel adapter for use on the top fuel crank with no built in register that presses into them that has the proper I.D., O.D and depth for using and locating the later model torque converter hubs in them. I wouldn't try to use the later model stick shift flywheels on them Buy the early type flywheel that centers on the outer crankshaft flanges properly

Fellas, just a follow up. The B1 MC heads with 2.4" intake valves clear these 4.360" bores (not final). I'm sure the proximity is less than optimum for shrouding, but they clear by a good margin. Now to spec the right cam!

Tom Hemphile may be a good guy to call about a cam

Looking at that crank is like look'n in Play Boy used to be, you want it but you know you can't get it or maybe I'm getting old, but it's sweet!

Recieved one from Iowa! Thanks

Update- decided to go with THE block (which I have received),at 4.500" bore and 3.915" stroke to net 499". Machine work is being done and engine built by Best Machine, as I'm sure Chuck and Pete will make way more power than I could. Will be using a motor plate to fit a dry sump pump. Still shooting for 950hp+ NA. As of now, I'm inside of a year to have the car built...should be a piece of cake!

That type flange is like all the early Mopars had, Top fueler cranks are still built that way. The flywheel or converter centers over the outside edge of the flange
Do not ever count on using the bolts to hold the flywheel without a centering register

A 383 was around then right..................

What happened to the stock block rule?

I would think they would make more like over a 1000 HP easy Jerry. You will be turning it up in the RPM range, like 9000+ though I would think.

That's 25" smaller than my M/C deal was that ultimately got well over 1050hp. Don't see 950 being to difficult as mine was far from a max effort deal. Went 171 in a 2975lb car so you can do your own math.

The Bonneville Salt Flats is, IIRC, 4200 feet elevation. That's an automatic 15% derate in horsepower.
Oh, rats, I see you've already covered the Density Altitude of 7700 feet.
5280 is -20% at standard temp and pressure, so the 7700 would be something like 33%?

R.

Well, I live and race here. It's not 33%, more like 15% in 8500 ft corrected.

I think more people need to come and experience what we get to experience out the west. A lot of things go into factoring a DA. I don't think they understand the barometer is 25 there...It has a way of kinda killing an NA car. I don't know the correction factor for RMR but it has to be .95XX given the altitude. Even NHRA slows indexes down .45 seconds there..

Rulebook says same material as original block, all OE parts must bolt up, etc. I'm going with close enough. Didn't want to build a time bomb 400 block. This block is approved for NHRA SS as I understand it, so I'm rollin' with that.

Last correction factor was 1.27 at 8150 ft corrected. The car is typically .3 slower from Las Vegas, and there is a whole bunch of variation there.

Well and we both know Vegas is at least .2 slower than most tracks. Poorly tuned combos will be even slower. But its a fun experience in all the thin air around here. I know we are celebrating if the barometer reached 28, its party time and we are gonna FLY!!!

Right on, that makes it easier! (originally it looked like you needed to use a stock block)

So, the 499" Bonneville bullet based on a B "THE BLOCK" is almost finished at Best Machine Racing Engines. Unfortunately, I need to bring it home to FL, install and plumb the dry sump and have headers built prior to taking it back for the dyno session, so the numbers will still be a while. Hoping for 1000hp NA. It has been and continues to be a long road, but still planning to make Speed Week 2019!

I've been watching the build at Best and it sure is a nice piece. You picked a great shop to do the build and I'm sure you will be more then pleased.

Hey Jerry,

New Bullet looks fantastic....i'm sure it'll run just as good as it looks !

Sent you a PM



Ron

whats the deal with the water pump and belt driven distributor?do you have spacers to push it forward?its hard to tell in the pic.nice build btw

that's a nice piece. Chuck knows how to make HP for sure! I bet it makes more than 1000. Best of luck

These heads proved to work well for this 498" B-block endurance build. Made 947hp @7400rpm and 690tq@6800rpm on Best Machine's dyno.

KOS, not sure about spacers, I think the motor plate takes care of it. Best Machine could answer that.

KOS, I went with the Jesel timing belt drive and distributor based on Best Machine's recommendation. Timing belt due to cam and valvetrain harmonics, and the distributor to have a bigger cap to lessen likelihood of crossfiring. This engine will be WOT for up to two plus minutes at a time.

The Meziere water pump I chose because of flow rating and to free up some power. After going down this path, I spoke with Meziere and they said a mechanical pump would have been better...so time will tell. I did get a custom Saldana radiator for this project, so hopefully it will work.

Do you think you will make it out here this year? If so the early SCTA race or the later BNI race?
How hard is it to get a room when the races are on?
I'm still watching you on this
I decided to not try and make the car I wanted to build after they both drop the all wheel drive classes

Yes, if Speed Week occurs I plan to be there. Still need a few bits and pieces (driveshaft, a pair of 28" Moroso DS-2s, and a fee other odds and ends), and have a ton of work to do, but I have most all the systems to get it together, just have to get it all installed. I am focussing on it to try and get it done this year, at least for the maiden run!

Lets see some pictures of the car!!!

What is the cut off speed now on requiring approve Bonneville high speed tires?
How hard and expensive are those tires to get now?

I've been 193mph on old Moroso DS-2s, so I'm going with those (new ones). I need to get a pair of 28" tires, as my math gets me to 240+ with those and a 2.47 geared 9" rear axle. The lowest I can find for an 8 3/4" is 2.76s, and even Moroso doesn't recommend their 29" skinnies for Land Speed use. I have an old pair 29" tires with very good tread, but not sure it is a good idea to use them. I plan to use an 18 spline 833 but am not sure if it will shift quickly around 7500rpm.
Actual land speed tires are very expensive and only produced occasionally. I am confident the DS-2s will be fine at 240mph or so.

You might want to check with both BNI and SCTA tech about those tires being okay for speeds above 175 MPH
Last time I called them they wanted the Bonneville approved above 175 MPH specific tires only to get through tech, the expensive ones

I ran 193mph at Bonneville in a friend's car that cruises through tech with DS-2s, car runs straight although with a power steering box with no power, meanders around a bit. The rulebook goes with speed ratings of the tires for classes up to Z ratings. If the existing record you are contesting is over 200mph, racing specific tires are required and speeds are based on mfgr recommendations. Moroso does not recommend the 29" skinnies for LSR, but up to 28" is okay and have been tested to 300mph with an 800lb load.

I think the LSR specific tires are like $1000 each and are only produced occasionally.

Hey Cab, don't be a quitter! Four wheel drive is ok with SCTA in the 2019 rulebook in Special Construction class or Production Class if the vehicle originally had four wheel drive from the factory!

This is the center weighted Crower custom crank, and finally posting dyno numbers!

I started a new thread with pics just for you Al! Looks like a semi-junky 1970 Charger with her clothes back on!

Cab, these DS-2s were several years old and they worked fine for me to 193mph. The next time I got in the car it would "only" go 180mph...someone had broken the ceramic on the #1 plug, which fell away resulting in running on a dead cylinder. At 15:1, I couldn't feel it missing, but it killed that piston. The engine was already broke when they put me back in the car to go over 200mph, but that run did it in for sure. The 193mph run was uneventful until the chute didn't open. A lot of cars there do not run front brakes, only rears, including this car, but it slow and stopped before I ran out of track on the long course (7 miles) in 2016.