Moparts

AV-GAS QUESTIONS................

Posted By: Thumperdart

AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 12:31 AM

A friend I met at the local College is now an airplane mechanic and sez I can buy all of the 100ll I want legally at $3.85-$4.00 per gallon instead of the $8.79 VP-101 so time to check it out. I know leaded can tolerate more timing but is there anything else I need to know?.............Thankxxx............ thumbs
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 12:38 AM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart
A friend I met at the local College is now an airplane mechanic and sez I can buy all of the 100ll I want legally at $3.85-$4.00 per gallon instead of the $8.79 VP-101 so time to check it out. I know leaded can tolerate more timing but is there anything else I need to know?.............Thankxxx............ thumbs

100 low Lead Avaition has lead in it, the Federal Goverment fine for running leaded gas on the streets is $10,00.00 for each conviction work shruggy Lots of the local street racers up here run it, none of them have been busted, YET shruggy I use to use it in my old bracket cars and NHRA stocker until I saw that it was eating up the valve seats shruggy It has a brake specific of .690 usually which means it will run real lean in most carbs without jetting or tuning scope
BTW, more than one VTVL street guys made comments on my old street cars when I ran that fuel on the streets down there, they could smell it shruggy
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 12:40 AM

What's the difference between our seats and airplane seats........
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 12:50 AM

I really have no idea on the seat materials other than most airplane motors are air cooled and run under 2700 RPM work The sleeves are steel and the block and heads are aluminum shruggy I had one exhaust valve spit a pie shape chunk out of my airplane motor at 8500 ft at 190 MPH about 50 miles east of Needles, CA, that made me turn around and go back to the Prescott, AZ airport real quickly. I had been running that mixtured at +25F rich of peak on the single probe EGT up to then, I ran it +75 F after that work
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 12:53 AM

Well it SEEMED like a good idea............ laugh2
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:14 AM

Reeds vapor pressure is the first thing that comes to my mind with AV gas. Discluding octane and lead issues, the stuff is ment to be run at altitude, not sea level. Airplane engines and what we race are very different in design. They run valve seats 2-3 times as wide as we do with spring pressures well under what we run.
Posted By: poboyengineering

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:18 AM

could one pick up a couple of points of octane with a 50/50 mix of avgas and 93 E10 and solve both the vapor lock issue with the pump stuff and the vaporization pressure issue with the avgas?
Posted By: yella71

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:22 AM

Here we go..... popcorn
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:24 AM

The one really good thing about avaition 100LL is it has a shelf life of 18 months, it is what I try to use in my stuff that sits a lot between uses, pit bike, generator, lawnmower and so on up
The local pump swill has a shelf life of less than 90 days down
Posted By: Dodgeguy101

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By Crizila
Reeds vapor pressure is the first thing that comes to my mind with AV gas. Discluding octane and lead issues, the stuff is ment to be run at altitude, not sea level. Airplane engines and what we race are very different in design. They run valve seats 2-3 times as wide as we do with spring pressures well under what we run.


I guess airplanes dont take off at sea level. This is where they need the power.
Posted By: Dodgeguy101

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:44 AM

Dom,

go over on YB, there is a long thread about it over there. Nothing wrong with it other
than you need to jet up a little.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:45 AM

Originally Posted By Crizila
Reeds vapor pressure is the first thing that comes to my mind with AV gas. Discluding octane and lead issues, the stuff is ment to be run at altitude, not sea level. Airplane engines and what we race are very different in design. They run valve seats 2-3 times as wide as we do with spring pressures well under what we run.


Bing-go.... yes guys run it on the street but usually
with lower compression thinking its better... hard seats
can use the no lead... if you need lead... you better add it
wave
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:51 AM

Originally Posted By Dodgeguy101
Originally Posted By Crizila
Reeds vapor pressure is the first thing that comes to my mind with AV gas. Discluding octane and lead issues, the stuff is ment to be run at altitude, not sea level. Airplane engines and what we race are very different in design. They run valve seats 2-3 times as wide as we do with spring pressures well under what we run.


I guess airplanes dont take off at sea level. This is where they need the power.
Take off at sea level is no big deal in many piston powered airplanes, taking off at Denver in the summer in the middle of the day is a little more challenging work You have to lean the motor out for best power on the run up and know that the airplane will take around another 1500 to 3000 ft more on the take off roll to get airborne and then fly like a lame slug in that air density, keep the nose down and get some speed up before manuevering up twocents I flew into and out of Denver once, I told the passengers to be ready for takeoff before 9:00 AM, which they where thumbs The air density was still way above 10,000 at that time shock
That engine was a 540 C.I. Lycoming opposed six cyliner rated at 260HP at sea level., it had around 170 HP max at that airport that day in that weather leaned out shruggy
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By yella71
Here we go..... popcorn


iagree

Ever notice someone who posts a lot says nothing worth reading with a lot of emotions?
Posted By: tsanchez

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 02:04 AM

I have ran it on pretty much anything you can think of, no issues, Blowers,turbos and compressions up to 12.5-1
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 02:04 AM

Originally Posted By Challenger 1
Originally Posted By yella71
Here we go..... popcorn


iagree

Ever notice someone who posts a lot says nothing worth reading with a lot of emotions?


Who might that be...........
Posted By: CSK

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 02:18 AM

low lead will still kill an o2 sensor.
Posted By: rickraw

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 03:01 AM

Never used it. I'm not a chemist, I figure I have a gasoline engine, it runs 9.50 on pump gas, I drive it to work sometimes. It's not an airplane.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By csk
low lead will still kill an o2 sensor.


I'm still on the same 02 from 6+ years ago and it`s fine............
Posted By: sgcuda

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By csk
low lead will still kill an o2 sensor.


I'm still on the same 02 from 6+ years ago and it`s fine............


That might be, but O2 sensors were never designed to run with leaded fuels. The chances of fouling a sensor are pretty high on a street motor that might idle around a lot more than a race engine at temp.
Posted By: KOS

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 03:48 AM

this has been beat to death with BS claims.... it works just fine been running it for as long as i can remember up to 14.1comp.now when i go to the track i run Q16 because its worth some hp over anything else ive tried but av to c12 or sunoco 112 all run the same.i ise it primarily for street cruising no need to burn $$$$$$
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 04:05 AM

That explains why my junks so slow............
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 04:08 AM

As always with, threads like this - 2 sides to every story. To the OP, try it Dominic. If it works in your application, you can save a lot of $. I am not a chemist, but I do know the make up of Av gas is a lot different then race or pump gas - as are the engines they are ment to be used in - no BS on that one. I don't see where the OP could have some major catastrophic engine failure by trying it. I personally would not use it, especially on the street, but in a race car application where you can control engine and engine bay temps, shruggy. If you decide to try it Dom, keep us tuned in on the results. beer
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 04:21 AM

Now I`m a bit confused and don't want to hurt anything and I street drive w/91 Shell sometimes and wanted to race w/av gas so maybe I'll stick w/the 101 VP-101............ work
Posted By: KOS

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Now I`m a bit confused and don't want to hurt anything and I street drive w/91 Shell sometimes and wanted to race w/av gas so maybe I'll stick w/the 101 VP-101............ work


your not gonna hurt anything trying it maybe just your pants pocket you keep your wallet in.like the other post said go check out yellowbullet tons of guys running it with good results.it also dosent change my tune at all from c12 or sunoco112 or anything else ive tried non-oxygenated only when i run q16.airplanes take off at sea level so the altitude thing is BS.....they have way more load on them at take off.
Posted By: tsanchez

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 04:50 AM

Ran drag weekend with it
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Now I`m a bit confused and don't want to hurt anything and I street drive w/91 Shell sometimes and wanted to race w/av gas so maybe I'll stick w/the 101 VP-101............ work


your not gonna hurt anything trying it maybe just your pants pocket you keep your wallet in.like the other post said go check out yellowbullet tons of guys running it with good results.it also dosent change my tune at all from c12 or sunoco112 or anything else ive tried non-oxygenated only when i run q16.airplanes take off at sea level so the altitude thing is BS.....they have way more load on them at take off.
Well, I live at 5000 ft above sea level. We have a great 5000 ft runway at our airport. Most of the planes that frequent our airport are powered by air cooled engines making about 2-300HP ( at sea level)- not 6-700 HP. Got plenty of air running over the engine and related fuel system on the ground. I also belong to the local car club ( also at 5000 ft above sea level ). Most do not run Av gas. Those that do, run a pump back by the fuel tank to keep the fuel line pressurized - to prevent vapor lock. Obviously KOS has never experienced this "phenomenon" and just blows it off as BS. Rooky! Did I mention heat soak problems when running Av gas? If you think E10 is bad, let me know how long the crank time is with Av gas sitting in them float bowls - or should I say - aint sitting in them float bowls after the carb heat soaks for an hour or so.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Now I`m a bit confused and don't want to hurt anything and I street drive w/91 Shell sometimes and wanted to race w/av gas so maybe I'll stick w/the 101 VP-101............ work


your not gonna hurt anything trying it maybe just your pants pocket you keep your wallet in.like the other post said go check out yellowbullet tons of guys running it with good results.it also dosent change my tune at all from c12 or sunoco112 or anything else ive tried non-oxygenated only when i run q16.airplanes take off at sea level so the altitude thing is BS.....they have way more load on them at take off.

When you take off below three thousand feet you leave the mixture at full rich. when your taking off above three thousand feet, if you have been trained properly, you should lean the mixture out to best power during the run up and enrich it to 25f to 75F degrees rich of peak from best power. Those motors use the extra rich fuel mixtures at full rich to help cool them at WOT shruggy Once you foul a spark plug on takeoff or while taxing on the ground when above three thousand feet you learn to pay attention to the mixture. Av gas you to be availble in many octane ratings from 80 to 145, not anymore except at the Reno air races shruggy
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 03:02 PM

Dom...Like others have said already, there's so much BS on this subject it's ridiculous. Do yourself a favor and listen to those of us who have actually run AvGas in our cars and see what our results were. I don't care what it was meant for, the FACT is that it runs great in cars like ours.
I ran it in my 12.5:1 440 for about 3 years...iron headed motor. Lots of miles on the street as well as 1/4 mile passes. It ran great, no better or worse than VP 110 in that motor. The valve seats did not take a beating from it...I know b/c I freshened up the heads when I took them off to replace them w/ Edelbrocks. They're still sitting on my shelf.

There is a local guy at our track that ran a 468" BB chevy, 13:1 w/ 2 stages of nitrous for YEARS on nothing but AvGas. Never hurt anything related to fuel in all the years I've known him. Low 5 sec 1/8 mile car. He's the one that turned me onto it.

Another friend ran it for years in a 496" BB chevy that I built. Solid roller, AFR heads, dominator, etc. 5.60s on a small plate kit in a street legal Chevy S-10 Blazer. No problems w/ that one either.

I am currently running AvGas in my 14+:1 Indy headed 446" motor. Has not been to the track yet, but I've been playing w/ it...runs great.
Posted By: rickseeman

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 04:13 PM

Like others have said already, there's so much BS on this subject it's ridiculous. I have run it many times in cars or motorcycles in the last 45 years. It always et's better than pump gas for me. I haven't seen any ill effects. Years ago avgas was better but at Keith Blacks that is what we used on the dyno.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 05:09 PM

I understand that everyone has their opinions and different experiences w/this and many other subjects so I may just get 10 gallons and play w/it and see how the WB and plugs react and go from there. I SHOULD get a new 02 sensor and free air calibrated it after the swap and some runs just in case mine`s not totally accurate cos it is at least 7 years old and has seen Rockett Brand leaded racing fuel also back in the day.........I appreciate all responses.............. beer
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By rickseeman
Like others have said already, there's so much BS on this subject it's ridiculous. I have run it many times in cars or motorcycles in the last 45 years. It always et's better than pump gas for me. I haven't seen any ill effects. Years ago avgas was better but at Keith Blacks that is what we used on the dyno.


Does this mean it does not hurt valve seats? whistling

I know of a place that sells race gas for 25 years or more now and it's Av gas and always has been and they have a dyno and airplanes and a drag strip too.
Posted By: tsanchez

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 05:41 PM

Quote:
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...

My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.

Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.

In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.

The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.

AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.

AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.

I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.

Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.

Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.

You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.

The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.

AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.

Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.

AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.

Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.

Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.

Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.

I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.

Good Luck,
Steve Poole
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 05:56 PM

Good read............. thumbs
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 06:58 PM

Let me see if I can steer this thread back in to some form of reality. First, it's interesting to see how so many fall back in to the mind set that a higher octane # = more power. The real BS comes when someone tells you that they changed fuels ( with no other changes )and made more power. In most cases when that occurs, they had problems that they did not know about with the fuel they were running, and the most likely cause was mild detonation that they could not see, hear, read, but was there.
In the late 60's I worked for a company called "Universal Oil Products". I worked in their dyno shop ( both engine and chassis) for 3 years. Attached to this shop was their Knock lab, which consisted of a bunch of single piston engines that you could vary the CR on while they were running to measure the anti knock ability of different fuels. On the dyno side, we ran the same fuel for almost all of our tests - 100 iso octane or 100 octane. We ran engine dyno tests for lots of different reasons and some were for detonation. If I were running a dyno shop today for high performance engines I would definitely use a high octane fuel to do my testing. Av gas would be a good choice because you don't have to worry about RVP and you could maximize other engine parameters, (timing, temp, AF ratio, etc ) without accidentally grenading the customers motor, and the costs might be better than race gas. There was seldom a time when we changed fuels on a test engine and saw a change in HP without some form of detonation involvement - why the detonation lab was attached to the dyno lab.
Getting back to RVP, I am sure everyone knows that RVP is a measure of fuel volatility (how easily it vaporizes) measured in PSI. The higher the #, the more volatile. Race fuel is usually in the 5-7psi range. Pump gas = 12-14 psi range, and Av gas is well above that. As long as you can control the ambient temp ( dyno work ) or are using it in a seasonable temp range ( ambient and under hood temps) it probably won't be a problem. Running Av gas in a car with high under hood temps ( street applications)and dead head fuel systems and you stand a good chance of experiencing vapor lock. Transversely, running race gas with a low RVP and trying to start at 0 degrees F, could be a problem - why I didn't recommend it for street applications. Again, to the OP, it voodent hurt to try it! If you see an improvement in ET / speed, great, but you were probably running in some level of detonation prior to the change ( albeit it minor ). Objectve = stay out of detonation at all costs while running a fuel with the lowest octane rating where you can do that while maximizing all other engine settings for best TQ/HP. My opinion = play it safe and run a little more octane than you think you may need.
Posted By: KOS

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By Crizila
Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Now I`m a bit confused and don't want to hurt anything and I street drive w/91 Shell sometimes and wanted to race w/av gas so maybe I'll stick w/the 101 VP-101............ work


your not gonna hurt anything trying it maybe just your pants pocket you keep your wallet in.like the other post said go check out yellowbullet tons of guys running it with good results.it also dosent change my tune at all from c12 or sunoco112 or anything else ive tried non-oxygenated only when i run q16.airplanes take off at sea level so the altitude thing is BS.....they have way more load on them at take off.
Well, I live at 5000 ft above sea level. We have a great 5000 ft runway at our airport. Most of the planes that frequent our airport are powered by air cooled engines making about 2-300HP ( at sea level)- not 6-700 HP. Got plenty of air running over the engine and related fuel system on the ground. I also belong to the local car club ( also at 5000 ft above sea level ). Most do not run Av gas. Those that do, run a pump back by the fuel tank to keep the fuel line pressurized - to prevent vapor lock. Obviously KOS has never experienced this "phenomenon" and just blows it off as BS. Rooky! Did I mention heat soak problems when running Av gas? If you think E10 is bad, let me know how long the crank time is with Av gas sitting in them float bowls - or should I say - aint sitting in them float bowls after the carb heat soaks for an hour or so.


ive been running av for 30yrs never experienced any vapor lock valve seat issues etc....have you ever run it?? if you dont have first hand experience with it dont come to conclusions from what you heard.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 08:18 PM

Originally Posted By Crizila
Let me see if I can steer this thread back in to some form of reality. First, it's interesting to see how so many fall back in to the mind set that a higher octane # = more power. The real BS comes when someone tells you that they changed fuels ( with no other changes )and made more power. In most cases when that occurs, they had problems that they did not know about with the fuel they were running, and the most likely cause was mild detonation that they could not see, hear, read, but was there.
In the late 60's I worked for a company called "Universal Oil Products". I worked in their dyno shop ( both engine and chassis) for 3 years. Attached to this shop was their Knock lab, which consisted of a bunch of single piston engines that you could vary the CR on while they were running to measure the anti knock ability of different fuels. On the dyno side, we ran the same fuel for almost all of our tests - 100 iso octane or 100 octane. We ran engine dyno tests for lots of different reasons and some were for detonation. If I were running a dyno shop today for high performance engines I would definitely use a high octane fuel to do my testing. Av gas would be a good choice because you don't have to worry about RVP and you could maximize other engine parameters, (timing, temp, AF ratio, etc ) without accidentally grenading the customers motor, and the costs might be better than race gas. There was seldom a time when we changed fuels on a test engine and saw a change in HP without some form of detonation involvement - why the detonation lab was attached to the dyno lab.
Getting back to RVP, I am sure everyone knows that RVP is a measure of fuel volatility (how easily it vaporizes) measured in PSI. The higher the #, the more volatile. Race fuel is usually in the 5-7psi range. Pump gas = 12-14 psi range, and Av gas is well above that. As long as you can control the ambient temp ( dyno work ) or are using it in a seasonable temp range ( ambient and under hood temps) it probably won't be a problem. Running Av gas in a car with high under hood temps ( street applications)and dead head fuel systems and you stand a good chance of experiencing vapor lock. Transversely, running race gas with a low RVP and trying to start at 0 degrees F, could be a problem - why I didn't recommend it for street applications. Again, to the OP, it voodent hurt to try it! If you see an improvement in ET / speed, great, but you were probably running in some level of detonation prior to the change ( albeit it minor ). Objectve = stay out of detonation at all costs while running a fuel with the lowest octane rating where you can do that while maximizing all other engine settings for best TQ/HP. My opinion = play it safe and run a little more octane than you think you may need.


You have the reed vapor pressures backward, fall, winter and spring it is 9# here for pump gas. Summer here it is 7# to help keep gas fumes out of the atmosphere. Avgas generally has even less so it is even less prone to vapor lock..less.

I own a fuel company and have been selling Sunoco race fuels since the mid 80s and still do today, yes even today I sold some. I have met Sunoco's Mike T Miller and learned a lot from him over the years. He's the technical operation manager for Sunoco performance products.

Av gas check it out.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By Crizila
Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Now I`m a bit confused and don't want to hurt anything and I street drive w/91 Shell sometimes and wanted to race w/av gas so maybe I'll stick w/the 101 VP-101............ work


your not gonna hurt anything trying it maybe just your pants pocket you keep your wallet in.like the other post said go check out yellowbullet tons of guys running it with good results.it also dosent change my tune at all from c12 or sunoco112 or anything else ive tried non-oxygenated only when i run q16.airplanes take off at sea level so the altitude thing is BS.....they have way more load on them at take off.
Well, I live at 5000 ft above sea level. We have a great 5000 ft runway at our airport. Most of the planes that frequent our airport are powered by air cooled engines making about 2-300HP ( at sea level)- not 6-700 HP. Got plenty of air running over the engine and related fuel system on the ground. I also belong to the local car club ( also at 5000 ft above sea level ). Most do not run Av gas. Those that do, run a pump back by the fuel tank to keep the fuel line pressurized - to prevent vapor lock. Obviously KOS has never experienced this "phenomenon" and just blows it off as BS. Rooky! Did I mention heat soak problems when running Av gas? If you think E10 is bad, let me know how long the crank time is with Av gas sitting in them float bowls - or should I say - aint sitting in them float bowls after the carb heat soaks for an hour or so.


ive been running av for 30yrs never experienced any vapor lock valve seat issues etc....have you ever run it?? if you dont have first hand experience with it dont come to conclusions from what you heard.

iagree Only time I ever had vapor lock issues was w/ 93 octane pump gas. NEVER once had any issues w/ Avgas or race fuel. That was w/ a dead headed fuel system too. Never had any hard starting issues w/ any fuel I've ever run either...except for the times it vapor locked on pump 93.
Posted By: tsanchez

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 08:45 PM

Reid pressure is 5-7 on av gas
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 08:48 PM

You have the reed vapor pressures backward, fall, winter and spring it is 9# here for pump gas. Summer here it is 7# to help keep gas fumes out of the atmosphere. Avgas generally has even less so it is even less prone to vapor lock..less.

I own a fuel company and have been selling Sunoco race fuels since the mid 80s and still do today, yes even today I sold some. I have met Sunoco's Mike T Miller and learned a lot from him over the years. He's the technical operation manager for Sunoco performance products.

Av gas check it out. [/quote]

Yeah.. summer fuel is low RVP winter in this area is
right at 10#... I tested the RVP on every load of fuel
I ordered.. and I even had a load with 15# RVP which
was a special order... plus I had to test it before every
test... its measured from 32*or less up to 100*..you use a
stainless seal vessel(we called them bombs) and its set in
the 100* water and that water temp is exact
wave
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By tsanchez
Reid pressure is 5-7 on av gas


Yup 38-49kpa
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/27/16 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
You have the reed vapor pressures backward, fall, winter and spring it is 9# here for pump gas. Summer here it is 7# to help keep gas fumes out of the atmosphere. Avgas generally has even less so it is even less prone to vapor lock..less.

I own a fuel company and have been selling Sunoco race fuels since the mid 80s and still do today, yes even today I sold some. I have met Sunoco's Mike T Miller and learned a lot from him over the years. He's the technical operation manager for Sunoco performance products.

Av gas check it out.


Yeah.. summer fuel is low RVP winter in this area is
right at 10#... I tested the RVP on every load of fuel
I ordered.. and I even had a load with 15# RVP which
was a special order... plus I had to test it before every
test... its measured from 32*or less up to 100*..you use a
stainless seal vessel(we called them bombs) and its set in
the 100* water and that water temp is exact
wave [/quote]Ya, had my numbers reversed as I was basing them on the test procedure; " the higher the # the more susceptible it is to vapor lock". Sorry bout that. At any rate, there is a reason why the fuel we buy from the pump is reformulated at least 4 times a year based on average ambient air temp changes - and those changes are in the RVP area.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By yella71
Here we go..... popcorn


Yeah, been beat to death, the haters hate it and the lovers love it.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 02:15 PM

I'd bet most of the haters have never personally used it.
Posted By: KOS

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
I'd bet most of the haters have never personally used it.


guaranteed 100%........i would never open my mouth regarding any topic that i had never had first hand experience with.
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 04:13 PM

4 grams of lead per gallon of 100LL. I run 87 non-jokenol in my O-320 and the plugs stay much cleaner.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 06:14 PM

How well does it start after sitting for several momnths between flights?
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
I'd bet most of the haters have never personally used it.


guaranteed 100%........i would never open my mouth regarding any topic that i had never had first hand experience with.



I agree with yall. AV gas has always been good to me
Posted By: Dodgeguy101

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By Airwoofer
4 grams of lead per gallon of 100LL. I run 87 non-jokenol in my O-320 and the plugs stay much cleaner.


Turn the fuel pump on, hit the gas twice, it starts right up. When it evaporates, it doesn't leave any crap in the fuel bowls. I like it.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How well does it start after sitting for several momnths between flights?

My road runner hasn't been started in a couple months...planned on getting it out this weekend. Has a tank full of 100LL Avgas. I'll let you know. up
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How well does it start after sitting for several momnths between flights?
.


There is an STC available to run mogas in some Bonanzas. It's about $2 a gallon less than 100 low leadI. still would not run it. I only run 100ll in mine.....
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 08:15 PM

I plan on gettin some here soon after I burn up the 101 unleaded and I`ll let you guys know how it runs and the tuning differences.............
Posted By: crackedback

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By FastmOp
Originally Posted By KOS
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
I'd bet most of the haters have never personally used it.


guaranteed 100%........i would never open my mouth regarding any topic that i had never had first hand experience with.



I agree with yall. AV gas has always been good to me


Me too. I've used it since the 80's. Never had any of the issues others have mentioned, in particular valve seats. Seat surfaces were always decent.
Posted By: Tig

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 08:45 PM

You can run a little more timing in it and you'll probably need to jet bigger too. Been running it in for many years with no issues, mixed 50/50 with super unleaded. twocents
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 09:04 PM

My O-320 is low compression (7-1). Runs like a champ (LOL, it's in a '66 7GCAA built by Champion) and probably has the same HP as the 160 HP version that has to run 100LL. I know this cause it has the same prop as the new ones and I get 2500 RPM on TO and can redline it going flat out. Thanks Lycon for the nice valve job you put on the new cyls. The plane sits in my hangar that is not temperature controlled so it gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter, and flies maybe 1/2 hr each weekend. My plane is in my back yard (as is my grass airstrip) and runs on the same gas I use in the mower. It starts perfectly and all I have to do is pump the throttle once or twice before hitting the button. Not at all like the IO motors that you have to start with the lean lever. But I ONLY use non-jokenol fuel from a station that has clean fuel with no water (I filter through a Mr. Funnel with the green screen).

That lead in an A/C motor gets into the oil. When I bot the plane the first thing I did was remove the freeze plug at the end of the crank to check for corrosion. The whole front of the crank (they are hollow on the snout for variable props) was filled with gray colored paste from the lead deposits. Now my oil stays very nice (Airwolf filter) and the plugs look great when I swap them up/down at 50 hr intervals.

As for running it in a car motor, the lead should help a little but may have the same effects I had on the plane motor with the plugs / oil. How much lead is in C-16? That stuff makes my plugs porcelain look yellow. Thumper, I sent you the wrong plugs, those ones were not from the motor that old Dom ran on.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 09:10 PM

Originally Posted By Airwoofer
My O-320 is low compression (7-1). Runs like a champ (LOL, it's in a '66 7GCAA built by Champion) and probably has the same HP as the 160 HP version that has to run 100LL. I know this cause it has the same prop as the new ones and I get 2500 RPM on TO and can redline it going flat out. Thanks Lycon for the nice valve job you put on the new cyls. The plane sits in my hangar that is not temperature controlled so it gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter, and flies maybe 1/2 hr each weekend. My plane is in my back yard (as is my grass airstrip) and runs on the same gas I use in the mower. It starts perfectly and all I have to do is pump the throttle once or twice before hitting the button. Not at all like the IO motors that you have to start with the lean lever. But I ONLY use non-jokenol fuel from a station that has clean fuel with no water (I filter through a Mr. Funnel with the green screen).

That lead in an A/C motor gets into the oil. When I bot the plane the first thing I did was remove the freeze plug at the end of the crank to check for corrosion. The whole front of the crank (they are hollow on the snout for variable props) was filled with gray colored paste from the lead deposits. Now my oil stays very nice (Airwolf filter) and the plugs look great when I swap them up/down at 50 hr intervals.

As for running it in a car motor, the lead should help a little but may have the same effects I had on the plane motor with the plugs / oil. How much lead is in C-16? That stuff makes my plugs porcelain look yellow. Thumper, I sent you the wrong plugs, those ones were not from the motor that old Dom ran on.


More good info............did you try those carbs out yet?
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 09:38 PM

Not yet. Gave up on fitting the 540 in and am now working on putting back in the 499. The carbs will get tried on then, but probably the 2" Dom will be all it needs.

100LL gas can sit in your lawn mower all winter - outside - and it will fire right up the next season. No gum, and no jokenol so no issues with corrosion of the jets. It is a slow burning fuel I think made for engines with bores much bigger than we run. Bores so big it takes 2 spark plugs to get the fire lit evenly.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 09:42 PM

I may try a few gallons and see what it does..........
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 09:58 PM

Dom.. I use to run it years ago before they buckled
down on the sale of it... I had to run 2 jets sizes
larger to run good... I dont recall moving the timing
wave
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 10:35 PM

I`m lucky cos my friend is an airplane mechanic and pilot so easy money for me although I may be moving to Kingman Az so not sure about that deal.......... thumbs
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 10:37 PM

Originally Posted By Airwoofer
When I bot (sic) the plane the first thing I did was remove the freeze plug at the end of the crank to check for corrosion. The whole front of the crank (they are hollow on the snout for variable props) was filled with gray colored paste from the lead deposits.


That's because you don't have a constant-speed prop where the oil at the end of the crank is circulated...any dead end in the oil system will accumulate sludge.

The auto fuel STC is invalid in areas where they have the slightest amount of alcohol which is pretty near everywhere so those folks are stuck with 100LL. TCP is a good lead scavenger for low-compression 100LL users.
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/28/16 10:59 PM

It could also have been bearing babbit material as the engine had 2200 original hours and when I overhauled it the crank bearings were down to copper inside and out. Plum wore out. Oil analysis says it is doing good now.

I put 100LL in every now and then as it helps the valve seats by putting some kind of coating on them.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 12:47 AM

When most airfeilds stop offering 80/85 ave gas for sale a lot of the local guys that could use it would buy several 55 gallon barrels and then go fill them up at a local gas station with ump regular and transfer that it into thier airplanes. I had heard some of them comment later when thier airpalnes sat for more then 5 or 6 weeks (at L 26 in Hesperia, CA in the Mojave Desert) the motors where really hard to start, hence my question on how hard was yours to start on pump gas after it had sat for awhile shruggy My Comanche sat in the hangar in Hesperia for almost a year before I flew up here to Bend, it was a lot harder to start at that time than when I flew it once a month minimum work It had a single primer nozzle into one cylinder so it did not prime all six cylinders, once it was warmed up I could start it off the throttle very easily up I would shut the motor down with the mixtue control so all the cylinders where dry when the motor quit and no residual fuel in the intake manifold.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 01:44 AM

Bottom line for me is - I would not use Av gas on a street car. Race possibly. Than again, I would not build a street car that won't run on street (pump) gas. Other reasons = if it's got lead in it, it's illegal, They ( the airport by me ) won't sell it to me, and it costs 3 times as much as pump gas. Wooops, almost forgot, vapor lock is not my friend - kind of a moot point after the other reasons. Yes, I have tried using it in the past ( way past when it was not against the law to use it on the street and easy to buy ). Then again, you could buy Sunoco 260 for a 1/4 of the price back then also and totally avoid any vapor lock issues.
Posted By: astjp2

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 05:10 AM

One thing people are forgetting, the piston acceleration and speed of an airplane engine doing 2700 RPM is like a small block doing 9K plus rpms, I read the math once on piston acceleration and speed, the huge radials had massive piston speeds, as much as a small block mopar that is maxed out. They also run at a much higher loading, my airplane usually runs at 80-90% power in cruise...a car on the street is maybe 35%...its all in the BTUs when it comes to engine load. Tim
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 03:51 PM

Interesting listening to the experienced pilots, I'm a new pilot myself with 100 hours now in 180 HP C172.
The 100LL at my airport is $6.84 a gallon and Sunoco 110 leaded is $7.45 gallon here and a lot easier to buy. So not a huge difference in price here.

My class delta home airport is a busy place right here in town so the price of fuel is higher than at the rural airports I noticed.
I fly at least once a week sometimes twice a week renting my flight school planes, they have 3 that I can rent. These are the 3 I fly.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 04:14 PM

I can buy 100 LL for $3.95 a gallon and I only have to drive 8 mi to get it,no brainier on my end as far as I'm concerned.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By 62maxwgn
I can buy 100 LL for $3.95 a gallon and I only have to drive 8 mi to get it,no brainier on my end as far as I'm concerned.


This is my situation also............
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 06:29 PM

I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....

Attached picture KIMG0080.jpg
Posted By: bee1971

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 07:02 PM

My wife flys these when she is bored LOL

I can't even sell 100LL to the general public , unless your flying in with wings attached

And we are pumping a 1,000 gallons a day of 100LL right now with the EAA down the road from where I work in Green Bay

Line Manager Executive Air

Attached picture image.jpeg
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/29/16 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By bee1971
My wife flys these when she is bored LOL

I can't even sell 100LL to the general public , unless your flying in with wings attached

And we are pumping a 1,000 gallons a day of 100LL right now with the EAA down the road from where I work in Green Bay

Line Manager Executive Air


Wow that's awesome!
Posted By: astjp2

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 12:37 AM

I only have 800 hours flying in Alaska, and 1500 total, never wrecked up there, which is not the norm, but for gas, I would put in whatever I could find sometimes...remote strips don't always have 100LL
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 01:12 AM

awesome!! eek
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 01:20 AM

Originally Posted By Old School
I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....


Awesome as well, 2 fine pieces of machinery. up Very cool!! I dream of the day I can take the same picture! bow

Speaking of 200 mph...I used to race top alcohol dragster for 9 years and have been 264 mph on the ground many times and even faster when I drove it out the backdoor like a dumbazz.
But I have to say that learning to fly was not easy for me, tons to learn forever. Hopefully it will help keep my mind sharp as I plan to continue my flight training for as long as I can.
Instruments next.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By Old School
I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....
Is that a A35 or a A36? If either I wasn't aware they would break 200 MPH or 200 KPH in straight and level flying confused stirthepot whistling
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By Old School
I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....
Is that a A35 or a A36? If either I wasn't aware they would break 200 MPH or 200 KPH in straight and level flying confused stirthepot whistling


its a f33. not exactly 200 mph,195 or so, close enough. it does 168 knots at 7000 ft. Comanche guys have always been jealous of the bonanzas speed, beer Ha Ha
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 10:02 PM

Well, if you like 100LL, start looking for a replacement. 2018 is to be the last year for leaded av gas. Two companies are in the running to get EPA approval.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Well, if you like 100LL, start looking for a replacement. 2018 is to be the last year for leaded av gas. Two companies are in the running to get EPA approval.


I think I just may stay w/VP-101 since I`m possibly moving to AZ fairly soon and not sure of av gas in that town..........
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Well, if you like 100LL, start looking for a replacement. 2018 is to be the last year for leaded av gas. Two companies are in the running to get EPA approval.


its not going to happen no where near that fast..... and when it does they will have a 100 octane unleaded aviation fuel substitute. There are thousands and thousands of certified aircraft that require 100 octane fuel. They still make them new today. The government cannot and will not abandon them.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By Old School
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By Old School
I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....
Is that a A35 or a A36? If either I wasn't aware they would break 200 MPH or 200 KPH in straight and level flying confused stirthepot whistling


its a f33. not exactly 200 mph,195 or so, close enough. it does 168 knots at 7000 ft. Comanche guys have always been jealous of the bonanzas speed, beer Ha Ha


My brother in law had a Bonanzas... did they make a
pressurized version ... was fun.. he would let me
do the take offs .. never did a landing... use to
fly in that a lot... he had the contract for building
Burger Kings
wave
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 10:52 PM

Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By Old School
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By Old School
I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....
Is that a A35 or a A36? If either I wasn't aware they would break 200 MPH or 200 KPH in straight and level flying confused stirthepot whistling


its a f33. not exactly 200 mph,195 or so, close enough. it does 168 knots at 7000 ft. Comanche guys have always been jealous of the bonanzas speed, beer Ha Ha


My brother in law had a Bonanzas... did they make a
pressurized version ... was fun.. he would let me
do the take offs .. never did a landing... use to
fly in that a lot... he had the contract for building
Burger Kings
wave


Nice! no bonanzas were pressurized. they made a pressurized baron, which is a twin engine bonanza. Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man, landing is the first...... up
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 11:01 PM

Originally Posted By Old School
Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Well, if you like 100LL, start looking for a replacement. 2018 is to be the last year for leaded av gas. Two companies are in the running to get EPA approval.


its not going to happen no where near that fast..... and when it does they will have a 100 octane unleaded aviation fuel substitute. There are thousands and thousands of certified aircraft that require 100 octane fuel. They still make them new today. The government cannot and will not abandon them.


Right... next thing you know, they will make leaded automobile fuel illegal! Oh wait...
And yes, as I said there are two companies with a substitute waiting for EPA approval. Once approved, 100LL will be treated as poison, and in 2018 mandated.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 11:19 PM

My brother in law had a Bonanzas... did they make a
pressurized version ... was fun.. he would let me
do the take offs .. never did a landing... use to
fly in that a lot... he had the contract for building
Burger Kings
wave [/quote]

Nice! no bonanzas were pressurized. they made a pressurized baron, which is a twin engine bonanza. Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man, landing is the first...... up [/quote]

When he sold his single he picked up the twin with
all the bells... nice plane.. I never even took that
one off
wave
Posted By: Old School

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/30/16 11:20 PM

Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Originally Posted By Old School
Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Well, if you like 100LL, start looking for a replacement. 2018 is to be the last year for leaded av gas. Two companies are in the running to get EPA approval.


its not going to happen no where near that fast..... and when it does they will have a 100 octane unleaded aviation fuel substitute. There are thousands and thousands of certified aircraft that require 100 octane fuel. They still make them new today. The government cannot and will not abandon them.


Right... next thing you know, they will make leaded automobile fuel illegal! Oh wait...
And yes, as I said there are two companies with a substitute waiting for EPA approval. Once approved, 100LL will be treated as poison, and in 2018 mandated.
did not say it wasn't going to happen, just nowhere near as fast as you think it will. As a pilot I have been following this for years. You're talking about the government they don't do anything fast! The replacement will still be 100 octane. It would just be unleaded. That would make it even better for people that use it in their street cars.....
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/31/16 03:02 AM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Well, if you like 100LL, start looking for a replacement. 2018 is to be the last year for leaded av gas. Two companies are in the running to get EPA approval.


I think I just may stay w/VP-101 since I`m possibly moving to AZ fairly soon and not sure of av gas in that town..........
If you plan on making the Wild Horse track your new home track, you can buy Sunoco 100 or 110 at the Lovi's station directly across from the track. Aint cheap, but accessible. Don't think you are gonna have much luck buying Av gas in this area.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/31/16 03:27 AM

I will check it out in a month or so and go from there............ thumbs
Posted By: D-50

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/31/16 03:29 AM

Thumper what is the compression on you motor? What is the cranking cylinder pressure?
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/31/16 04:12 AM

As you've said, they've been at this for years, so it is not happening fast. 2018 is two years away, but they didn't come up with this idea today.
The PAFI initiative is in full speed ahead mode now.
It is surprising more people aren't aware of this in the experimental aircraft section, where people have a way above average interest in just this sort of thing.
Anyway, I'm sure the fuel prices will go up exponentially, and from what I'm told, one of the fuels up for EPA cert has a nasty side effect of being "unfriendly" to painted surfaces.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/31/16 05:50 AM

Originally Posted By Old School
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By Old School
I pay $3.70 for 100LL. While we are showing planes here's my junk. When the cars are not fast enough this will fly 200mph all day long....
Is that a A35 or a A36? If either I wasn't aware they would break 200 MPH or 200 KPH in straight and level flying confused stirthepot whistling


its a f33. not exactly 200 mph,195 or so, close enough. it does 168 knots at 7000 ft. Comanche guys have always been jealous of the bonanzas speed, beer Ha Ha
I loved racing the A 35 and A 36 Bonanza for distances over 300 miles devil I wouldn't fly at there altitude though whistling We had several different Bonaza on my home field, a K model 250 HP V tail, a 1968 A 35 285 HP. Below 10,000 FT I couldn't stay with the A35,he had 1 to 3 MPH depending on the density altitude and payload weights. Above 10,000 he couldn't stay with me boogie
What are the details on the F33, seating, HP and cruise speeds?
BTW, my 1960 250 moddle had a 1965 260 HP conversion from the firewall forward, it wasn't stock and I did have the airfamed optimised for speed at cruise, sliding the front two seats back all the way in cruise was worth 4 MPH, keeping 200 lbs. in the baggage compartment was worth some speed also up Little things like that add up, once a racer, always a racer devil
Sadly it got total in a hail storm in 2006 after moving it up here from SO CA in 2005, no hangars available to rent or buy at the local airport back then whiney I thought flying would be more fun, not so except for aerobatics grin
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 07/31/16 06:20 AM

Originally Posted By D-50
Thumper what is the compression on you motor? What is the cranking cylinder pressure?


I cranked it 4+ years ago and it was 175+ and I`m at 12.1.1 compression...........
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 03:57 PM

Fired up my road runner this weekend after it's been sitting for about 2 months. Tank full of Avgas, fired right up after a couple pumps of the throttle. So much bad info from people who have never run the stuff in a car here.
Posted By: crackedback

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 05:12 PM

Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
Fired up my road runner this weekend after it's been sitting for about 2 months. Tank full of Avgas, fired right up after a couple pumps of the throttle. So much bad info from people who have never run the stuff in a car here.


And you probably didn't have to replace a pair of rotted out accel pump diaphrams. smile

Pump gas is horrible if you let a car sit for any period of time.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By crackedback
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
Fired up my road runner this weekend after it's been sitting for about 2 months. Tank full of Avgas, fired right up after a couple pumps of the throttle. So much bad info from people who have never run the stuff in a car here.


And you probably didn't have to replace a pair of rotted out accel pump diaphrams. smile

Pump gas is horrible if you let a car sit for any period of time.
Very true. No alcohol is a plus for Av gas. Unfortunately can't buy it around here and pump gas in my area is $2.15 a gallon.
Posted By: D-50

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 09:06 PM

Thumper, my cranking compression is 195~200 and drive and race on 93 octane. Not sure if that means a lot.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 10:25 PM

I looked up the specs. on the F33, the guy who own the A35 Debonair on our field told me that is was a A35, maybe he lied about the model number seeing as it had the same specs. as the F33 model on the internet confused I flew in the other Bonaza V35 K model to go to lunch, sitting on top of the wing spar gave me a completely different perspective than sitting down low in the Comanche, it was similar to the differences between sitting in a 55 Chevy Bel air and sitting a 1963 Corvette shruggy
Sorry for the hijack, Thumper bow grin
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 10:38 PM

Originally Posted By D-50
Thumper, my cranking compression is 195~200 and drive and race on 93 octane. Not sure if that means a lot.


Ya I know several base cranking comp on fuel but it goes up as rpm`s climb so 101 for me as all we have is 91 crap and not worth the risk. I have mixed 110 leaded in the past w/91 and it seemed fine so maybe avgas or mixing for the track..........
Posted By: astjp2

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/01/16 11:40 PM

Easiest way to get the alcohol out is to put water in the gasohol and then drain off the water, the alcohol binds with the water, then you remove it.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/02/16 05:35 AM

Originally Posted By astjp2
Easiest way to get the alcohol out is to put water in the gasohol and then drain off the water, the alcohol binds with the water, then you remove it.
What's that do to the octane #?
Posted By: astjp2

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/02/16 08:14 AM

I don't know, I just know that Alcohol is bad for aircraft....it destroys the aluminum tanks and lines quick. Tim
Posted By: astjp2

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/03/16 06:04 AM

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14679

Ethanol is the scourge of owners of motorcycles, boats, and many other gasoline-operated vehicles and implements. E10 (10% ethanol) is pretty much the only available gasoline in most of the country now, with a few stations offering ethanol-free gas. And E15 (15% ethanol) is coming soon, recently approved by the EPA for 2001 and newer cars - even though the car manufacturers don't want it, and it is not approved for use by any motorcycle manufacturer either. You can thank the ethanol lobby for that.

"E15 won't be a problem - I'll just select my regular E10 on the pump," you may say. Well, there is a problem - the pipes and hose of the fuel pump contain about 3/4 gallon of whatever was last dispensed - and that could be E15. 3/4 gallon isn't much when you're pumping 15 gallons into your car, but when you're only pumping a few gallons into your bike, which doesn't like ethanol to begin with, 3/4 gallon makes a big difference!

What's the problem with ethanol? The biggest problem is phase separation. Like brake fluid, ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it bonds very easily to water. If there is moisture in the air (which there always is), the moisture bonds with the ethanol. The combination of water and ethanol is heavier than gasoline, so it falls to the bottom of the gas tank, where the pickup is. Let your bike sit for any length of time, particularly with a partially-full gas tank (because the air space left will contain moisture, and will expand and contract with heat, sucking in more moisture-laden air), and your tank will have a layer of water/ethanol mixture on the bottom. This is called phase separation. Guess what gets sucked into your engine the next time you start it? The water/ethanol mixture will burn in your engine, but it will burn much leaner and hotter, with the potential for serious engine damage as a result.

Ethanol is particularly corrosive to plastics, rubber, aluminum and fiberglass when compared to straight gasoline. If you have a vintage bike with a fiberglass tank, and are running E10 gasoline in it, the tank is likely swollen and on its way to failure as the ethanol breaks down the fiberglass. Many bikes have developed leaks and problems from swollen gaskets and failed rubber hoses and seals, all as a result of E10.

When E10 is allowed to sit for a long time, particularly somewhere where air can get in, like a normal vented gas tank, the volatile portion of the fuel will eventually evaporate. What's left is a milky goo. This goo eventually hardens into an amber solid, which then cracks into tiny pieces - heading directly into your carburetor to clog jets and cause failures.

Two stroke engines definitely have problems with E10: ethanol breaks down the lubrication provided by the fuel/oil mixture, leading to engine seizures!

So what is the solution? Well, you can check out the web site http://pure-gas.org to try to find a gas station near you that sells ethanol-free gas. Hint: many boat marinas sell ethanol-free gas, because with the added moisture in a boating environment, E10 plays havoc with boat engines.

Or...you can make your own ethanol-free gas. Yes, you heard me right! Make it yourself! I never even thought about doing this, until I read the excellent article "Removing Ethanol from E10 Fuel" by Dave Searle in the December 2012 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News - my absolute favorite magazine. If you haven't got a subscription to this magazine yet, stop reading this right now and go subscribe! I promise you won't be sorry. I've using a few pictures from Dave's article in this article.

So as you can guess, you don't actually make your own gasoline, you take regular E10 gasoline and remove the ethanol. Because ethanol boosts the octane in gasoline, I recommend you start with premium gas. Removing the ethanol from the premium will in the process lower the octane to the equivalent of regular gas. If you start with regular E10, you will need to add an octane booster, available at any auto store, or Wal-Mart.

So how do you remove the ethanol from E10? It's quite simple, actually - just add water! Remember, ethanol binds strongly to water. All you need to do is add some water to the gasoline, agitate to make sure it mixes well, then let it sit for a few minutes. The water will bond with the ethanol, and it will phase-separate out, falling to the bottom of the container.

How much water do you add? Well you can't add too much. If you don't add enough, then it won't remove all of the E10, and what E10 does bond with the water, will separate to the bottom of your container. If you add too much, the available ethanol will bond to the water, and the remaining water will separate to the bottom. You'll then have three layers: gasoline on top, ethanol/water in the middle, and water on the bottom:
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/03/16 07:54 PM

I think the water/jokenol mix is what is corrosive. That stuff will leach the copper out of brass jets and leave green residue permanently to the alum in the carb bowl. I drive a ways to a gas station with pure gas and pay the extra cost - it's worth it.

As for the F-33 Bonanza, they are also aerobatic. I watched Pat Epps do an airshow over his brother's airstrip one day as a thunderstorm was rolling in. It was maybe a 1000' ceiling and he was doing hammerhead stalls. Impressive but stoopit. he made it down before the first gust hit and the subsequent bottom falling out, but not by much time.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/03/16 07:54 PM

I run E85 pump fuel in my race car, it was built to be raced on straight methanol so the E 85 doesn't harm the fuel system. I bought a QuickFuel brand E85 tester and it uses a small amount of water and fuel in a small tube, you put in a specific amount fuel and add the a specific amount of water into the tube and shake it well and wait for the seperation to read the results. It does seem to remove either some of the alochol or water because when you mix the water it will be at the top of the tube markings and after I shake it that tube has less fluids in it than before shaking it confused
Posted By: Airwoofer

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/03/16 07:58 PM

You put 20cc's of water in a 100cc graduated cylinder and fill the rest up with gas - that's 80cc more. Shake it up and when it settles the water/jokenol will now be 28cc if it is 10%. The reason they are going to 15% is because the Frikkin law says how much "renewable" fuel will be used annually and as gasoline consumption drops, which it has nationally, they have to blend in more. Oboma doesn't care about our stuff going bad cause we should all be driving chebby volts and besides like C4C, destroy a existing car and people will have to buy another, stimulating the economy.
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/04/16 08:03 PM

We used 100LL Av Gas for years with no problems.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/04/16 08:12 PM

When I first started drag racing at the tracks in SO CA in the ealry 1970s avaition gas was offered in three grades I can remember, 80/85 octane, 100/115 and 115 /145 octane. The lower number represented the rich octane rating on take off and the upper number represented the lean rating. The 115/145 was lowered later in the late 1970s to 115/135 and finally drop all together once the airlines stop using the older piston driven airliners whiney
Posted By: astjp2

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 12:58 AM

That is when I was born.... fart

Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
When I first started drag racing at the tracks in SO CA in the ealry 1970s avaition gas was offered in three grades I can remember, 80/85 octane, 100/115 and 115 /145 octane. The lower number represented the rich octane rating on take off and the upper number represented the lean rating. The 115/145 was lowered later in the late 1970s to 115/135 and finally drop all together once the airlines stop using the older piston driven airliners whiney
Posted By: venom107

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 03:18 AM

Airwoofer,

Is there anywhere in town that still sells 100% gas in 93?
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By venom107
Airwoofer,

Is there anywhere in town that still sells 100% gas in 93?


Can't help you on where to find it in your area, but I can tell you if you find straight gas it is going to be 91 octane because like said above they use ethanol to get it up to 93. So if you see 93 than it has ethanol in it.

I have a fuel business in Cincinnati and we are the only one of 2 places who sells straight gas for many years now. Even the marinas on the river are selling ethanol gas around here and they only sell gas on the river for like 3 months during the boating season. We have race gas and straight 91 gas year round at a nice new credit card swiper pump for close to 30 years now. Too bad you don't live around here.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 06:07 PM

All pump 91 here in Cally is 10% or more ethanol............sez it at the pump............
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart
All pump 91 here in Cally is 10% or more ethanol............sez it at the pump............


Yup 99.9% of the stations sell ethanol gas and not all stations have 93, if they do it's loaded with ethanol to get it that high. I never said all 91 is ethanol free.

Straight 91 unleaded gas with no ethanol is over a dollar a gallon more than premium ethanol gas, so that's one way to tell if your buying straight gas at a pump.

99.9% of the stations can't afford to have a pump just for the low volume gas like what we sell...leaded race gas, kerosene, diesel. We took out/stopped selling by the gallon Sunoco 260GT 100 octane unleaded ethanol gas and put in 91 octane straight unleaded gas with no ethanol. WE now sell like 5 times more 91 straight unleaded gas with no ethanol than we did 100 octane unleaded with ethanol. We already had the pump and tank for race gas. We still sell sunoco 260gt, just in drums and 5 gallon cans now.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 07:02 PM

That`s why I but VP-101 at the pump............
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By Thumperdart
That`s why I but VP-101 at the pump............


You do know that fuel has ethanol in it...right?

Not really great fuel for cars that don't get driven much IMO.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 10:34 PM

I drive my Dart enuff and see no issues yet............
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 10:37 PM

Avgas would be 10X better than ethanol gas. What does VP 101 cost out there per gal.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 10:45 PM

Pricy at $8.79 a gallon but run Shell 91 just for puttin or I mix it...........
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 10:50 PM

Thanks up
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 10:51 PM

Wanna buy some..............lol...........
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 11:03 PM

No thanks. laugh2
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/05/16 11:14 PM

I heard you have a pretty good fuel connection....... wink
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AV-GAS QUESTIONS................ - 08/06/16 12:07 AM

Yup. wink
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