Holley FI information & Aeromotive fuel system - Mr P-Body

So I don't high jack someone's thread, I will ask questions here...

Subject: Randy (Labratt) and Mark's GTX Project

Mike,

I ran Aeromotive SS 8AN Teflon line from the fuel pump to the Regulator, and another SS 8AN Teflon line back to the fuel cell for the return.

That said, which Aeromotive Fuel pump should I buy, the 1000 or the Eliminator, and which Aeromotive regulator? I could potentially be generating 1200 HP out of my new engine, but most likely around 950 HP...just want to buy once.

I also have the MSD Crank Trigger with a locked out MSD Billet distributor, being controlled by a MSD 7AL3 that has a 20* start retard chip...

I have been doing my research on both the Holley Dominator and HP units, and I think I understand a little at this point. Very little...

Okay, you are going to a crank trigger and cam sensor, so how are going to incorporate that into your engine? I have the jesel belt drive on Randy's engine, and will also install one on the Hemi I am collecting parts for, so I guess you could have a sensor there?

Do you have the Holley HP ECU controlling the timing and spark on your car? Or will the crank trigger and cam trigger help do this for you?

EFI is new to me, but it all looks like that is the way of racing future. Sorry Thumperdart...

BR, Mark

On the pump you would be better off asking Monte..
right now I only have fuel control... once I put on
the crank and cam sensors I can have a true multi
point injection with timing control... I have a crank
belt pulley that I made purposely with a 1/4" extra
behind the belt so I could add a crank sensor... I just
talked with Jerry on his dist sensor set up.. in a week
or so I will swing by his shop to see what he has... but
so far it looks like I will run his dist set up.. then go
coil on plug.... Trendz is a guy you might want to ask some
of your questions to also.. and MoparRich since they both
work on this stuff... I'm still pretty green on this

Jesel sells a magnet to drill and glue onto your belt drive setup, or you can use your crank trigger for a crank sensor, and grind all but one reluctor off the distributor reluctor wheel for cam sync. IIRC someone mad a crank sensor adapter that uses a jeep 4.0 sensor, if you didn't want to hack up a msd distributor.


I've got a HP ecu I'm actually selling if someone is intersted.

I would suggest using a magnafuel pump. Smaller, quieter, less heat, more output under higher pressures. I personally had no luck with using a single A1000 on my car. Not enough output under boost, and loud as a chainsaw.
I'm pretty sure Holley also makes an EFI pump, but I have no experience with one.
I would strongly suggest using the ecu to control timing.
A cam sensor allows:
individual cylinder timing adjustment
individual cylinder fuel control
sequential injection
coil on (or near) plug ignition
If you plan to use as a drag race unit, the inputs and outputs of the dominator are well worth the extra money for data gathering and controlling peripherals.
Contact Rich or Monte for Holley EFI.

Jerry does that 4.0 jeep sensor.. that why I am
thinking of going that way

Here's a pict of a mallory dist I did for a SBC. Not a whole lot to it, scope pattern is perfect/ even at slow rotational speed, very clean install, and easily phasable.

Are those embedded magnets or just set screws?

The screws hold the sensor assy to the body.
The magnet is in the center of the "cap"
the actual sensor is molded into the outer cap where the wires are.
The rotating cylinder/ring, makes/breaks the magnetic signal between the sensor and magnet.

With a belt drive the target in the sprocket with a Hall Effect sensor is a no brainer simple. Same on crank trigger. Screw MSD sensor out, screw Holley Hall effect in same bracket.......your done

I like the jesel solution, as long as your not using a factory style waterpump housing, and you are using a distributor cap/ rotor. If you plan on coil on/near plug, the Jeep sensor is small, and you still need something to hold the oil pump drive gear in place, so why not use the distributor as a dual purpose unit?

Good question, my theoretical answer would be that the crank trigger is much more accurate than the distributor trigger, which has to deal with the cam lobe and spring interaction as well as the drag of the oil pump assuming it is at the rear. Camshafts are not infinitely stiff especially when 700# springs are used.

However there is usually a large variance from "good" to "good enough". The distributor setup may fall into the good enough category.

R.

For the ECU to have any input on ignition side of things, you need a crank trigger. To run sequential you need cam and crank sensor. As I said earlier, if you already have an MSD crank trigger, it's as simple as changing the sensor. At that point the ECU can "tell" the MSD box what to do across the points wire, if that is the ignition route you choose

Hi Monte, I would like to keep the MSD 7AL3 and the distributor with single coil, and let the Holley ECU control the MSD unit. That said, I would assume that you connect the ECU's white wire to the MSD's white wire?

I really do not want the 8 coils, but the sequential firing of the injectors. Would this be a correct statement?

Is there a kit for the Jesel Belt drive to the Holley ECU?

Thank you, Mark

Yes that's right, to run sequential you need a cam sensor. We make a kit for the Jesel but it's a Chevy bracket. Can also just buy target and sensor and make your own bracket. Nothing to it

Yeah, sometimes I don't make myself real clear. This jeep sensor is used as a cam position sensor only. You would still need a crank position sensor for actual engine position. The cam sensor only lets the ecu know what stroke the engine is in. The cam sensor "event" has to occur within a window of 60 degrees.
I think some guys may misinterpret some lingo with the ignition triggering.
You CAN use your distributor as an ignition trigger. It will not be as accurate as a crank mounted trigger.
There are also "daul sync" distributors. These give the ECU the crank and cam signals to control ignition and seq injection, again not as accurately as a crank mounted sensor.
Then there is the crank mounted trigger, used in conjunction with the cam mounted trigger.
The accurate part in this equation is the crank trigger. The cam event can swing/ occur in a 60 degree or so window. No cam twist or chain slop would ever get you out of that window.


On the question regarding the embedded magnets, I think what you are referring to is the 4 holes you see in the dist body. Those holes are there only because the original mallory distributor upper half is screwed on using those holes. In this case, those holes are not used.

I ran Aeromotive SS 8AN Teflon line from the fuel pump to the Regulator, and another SS 8AN Teflon line back to the fuel cell for the return.

That said, which Aeromotive Fuel pump should I buy, the 1000 or the Eliminator, and which Aeromotive regulator? I could potentially be generating 1200 HP out of my new engine, but most likely around 950 HP...just want to buy once.

suggestions?

Mark

Monte,

Any ideas on my message above on Fuel pump regulators?

Thank you, Mark

I went with a complete Holley system... regulator
and pump... but I doubt the pump I went with would
support your engine... I know mine is good foe 700 hp
and I went with #8 supply and return

Hi Mike,

I looked at the Holley Dominator and the Brushless. The Holley Brushless are expensive, however it looks like the ECU would be able to control the pressure for Idle, mid and full...don't know for sure, though.

Magnafuel makes an in-line EFI pump that is rebuildable, but not sure how quiet it is and how durable it is.

On Yellow bullet, there are a lot of complaints about the Holley pumps...

Still waiting for Monte and the EFI experts to chime in.

Thanks, Mark

I havent looked yet but I want to see if they have
rebuild kits for the pump I have.... I would like to
have one on hand.. mainly for DW... I can say that
the pump is quiet.. I barely hear it before I start
the engine... I wait the 3 second it runs then it
shuts down if the engine isnt running... just so the
system primes up the pressure

Modern high performance cars are using a deadhead fuel system that are controlled by a PWM (pulse width modulator). The PWM reduces the amount of time 12v is supplied to the pumps when fuel demand is low, like at idle, cruise etc.

One benefit of these system designs is that the heat put into the fuel from the pumps is greatly reduced. Pump life is also extended, as the pump is not working so hard to circulate fuel.

I've read that two performance pumps running at full voltage are the eqivelant of having a pair of 240 watt light bulbs in your fuel tank.

Vaporworks has some interesting fuel system solutions that use factory fuel modules and their proprietary PWM's to control up to 3 high volume OEM rated fuel pumps.

I plan on working with Monte to switch over to sequential EFI with coil near plug ignition and the OEM flex-fuel E-85 fuel/alcohol content sensors powered by the new Holley ECUs.

The fuel system that appears to me to be simple and reliable and still capable of having sufficent fuel flow capacity to support big horsepower is looking like a dual pump E-85 Cadillac fuel module with remote pick-ups, a Vaporworks PWM and a custom tank by Rick's tanks. Keep in mind this is a deadhead system just like the hellcat, Corvette and Cadillac CTSV are using.

It's nice to see the cam sensors for big blocks being made. Thanks to those guys expanding the envelope of modern engine managment componets for big block Mopars.

Good information, however I have a large fuel cell mounted in the trunk, then two AN8 lines to a Aeromotive Y, then AN 12 out to a Aeromotive A3000 pump/filter/return combo.

I am wanting to disconnect the AN12 from the A3000, and attach the EFI pump with a filter in and a filter out.

Will the Vaporworx work with pumps as in my configuration ?

Regards, Mark

Holley sells a kit for the Jesel belt drive. It's only offered for Chevrolet, of course. We use it and modify the bracket for a Mopar. It depends on what water pump you use as to whether this will work for you.

As to pumps, the 12-1800 is what you are referring to for failures on Yellow Bullet. This pump is not designed for high ambient temps. Mounting it higher than the cell or on it's side can cause failure as well. It is only this particular pump, and the others are designed for those applications. The 12-1800 really is a race only pump, but I have in tank mounted them and not seen any problems. Again, they have other pumps that fit the high HP street applications.

The VR brushless pumps are pretty cool technology, although very expensive. They are supposed to be run with the VR series regulator. I just ordered one, and will be switching from twin 1800's to a single VR2. I let you know how it does.

The pump will be level with the sump, so no problem there, unless it runs out of fuel...

Mark