Blown Head Gasket & More.... *****update****

I always try to look at my blessings instead of the bad stuff, but the last week has been tough. I lost my job on Friday. Not really too worried about that, I'm employable and will be just fine, but it will certainly tighten the finances for the foreseeable future, then this.......

Pulled the car out for a drive and had issues getting it started. Starter kicked back and I had to charge the battery to get it to turn over, which is strange for my car. Got it started but it felt strange, not running crisp, almost as if it was missing on a cylinder. Shut it down and looked around: Immediately saw water dripping from the pan rail. Checked the dipstick... YUK! water in the oil. crawled under that car and was able to trace the source of the water, which now was showing oil in it on my garage floor, to the passenger side head gasket. Now realized the starter kicked back because it was likely partially hydro-locked.

A head gasket isnt that big of a deal, but in light of my employment situation, its going to be hard to justify buying car parts.

This is the first time I've dealt with a blown head gasket. I'm assuming that protocol would be to pull the motor and go through it stem to stern to make sure I remove any moisture , as well as check the bearings for any damage that could have resulted from water in the oil?.... Anything else I should be alert for? Also, As I replace the head gaskets, I'd like to gather as much compression as possible. It had 440-source .055 head gaskets and static compression worked out to be 10.3:1. I've never had detination issues. Pistons are flat top with 5cc reliefs at zero-deck. What thickness would be optimal and safe?

Thanks for any replies.

Since the oil looks like chocolate milk you really should pull it and tear it down completely. If you hadn't gotten it running you might have gotten away with a flush and run it, but I wouldn't take the chance.

I would put a GOOD .040 head gasket in it, with Quench and Alum heads you should be able to handle the bump in compression, you should be under 11.0

Are your pistons positive deck height ?

Ya, just about gotta come apart to be safe. Try to diagnose the failure. How many miles on it? Composite gasket? Check the head bolt torque? Corrosion? You will know a lot more once the heads are off. Bummer!

Make sure you didn't bend a rod.

They are right at zero plus any piston rock which I didn't specifically make note of when I built it but remember a slight amount. I will measure it when I get the heads off. It was static 10.3:1 before, so it won't be under 10, unless your thinking dynamic ratio, John? Oil wasn't "chocolate milk", but showed white spots on the dipstick so your point is valid and I agree a check-up is in order.

Motor is 6 years since build; Probably around 6k-8k street miles and 84 passes. Composite gasket - yes. I assembled it with new ARP head bolts, but haven't re-torqued or looked at torque specs in years. I'll look closely at the Rods, which are Scat Steel H-beams.

Sorry to see this both the job loss and gasket issue..........I`d pull the motor as stated just to check everything out........

Iron or aluminum heads? Take the time to figure out exactly what caused the failure They normally don't fail for no reasons Good luck, let us know what you find

Aluminum heads, Cab. The good news is I'll have the time I need, although the wife may not see this as a priority and I certainly need to keep her happy.

I'll get it pulled and torn down and report back with findings. Remind me again why we do this??

I'd be curious to see if you find the gaskets hanging inside the chambers anywhere, of if they were sort of "on the edge".
The earlier stealth heads had chambers that were really pretty wide.

I'd agree with the statement above, check the gasket to chamber fit. I bought my stealths in 2012 and they were still really wide, the regular .039 fel pro overhung it a little. These things don't normally eat head gaskets so make sure you haven't got a crack anywhere. Good luck, you had her running pretty good, I've seen that trap speed in your sig creeping upwards.

I'd check the bearings for sure. But FWIW I had a late model GM V6 blow an intake gasket and really make a chocolate shake in the crankcase. Never checked it, but it was a cheap commuter engine. That was 130K miles ago and that engine is still going strong at 270K. Not saying you shouldn't check it but I think you'll be alright, sounds like you caught it early

I typo'd , I meant to type under or at 11.0 ...

Still a good idea to tear it down and clean good , check the rod in the cylinder that filled with water . Gasket set isn't that expensive.

Make sure you chase the headbolt holes , a friend had a water problem once ... it took 3 attempts till the builder discovered that there was one headbolt hole that was giving a false torque reading from galled threads, that engine build should have studs instead of bolts to begin with ... 500inch, 800hp race engine ...

You might check the torque of the head bolts as you REMOVE them. As double R & cab said keep your eyes peeled for evidence as you undo it piece by piece. $hit happens (but there is always a reason). WAG- bad gasket. check decks for flatness/chamfer bolt holes if needed & as said, depth/chase holes with a "thread chasing" type bottom tap

6 - 8K street miles and 84 passes before it failed? You running straight water or water / antifreeze mix? Run a PH test and electrolysis test on the coolant? Anything over .3 of a volt is not acceptable. Just thinking dissimilar metal / corrosion issues. Still could be what has been mentioned above, but kinda strange after that many miles. Any recent major over-heats?

Can you be more specific about which gasket from 440 Source you used? Is it something they still list on their web site?

I remembered incorrectly. They are the .051 compressed thickness grey gaskets.

Probably their (440 source) white gaskets that were made by Corteco.

The original orange Detroit Gasket .040" race gaskets, and the later version in the same size that was updated to an easier-to-disassemble white coating before Corteco bought DG, are very good.

I have suspected the .051" version that 440 Source sold (sells?) is a standard replacement gasket (think along the lines of the basic Fel-Pro Permatorque), not the more durable race-type part.

Myself... I'd be looking at the edge of the
gasket to the tapper on the bore... so look
closely at that point BEFORE you even pull the
gasket(hopefully it stays on the block)

I live close to you and I have a Cab Burge built 440 that needs to have it's muscles exercised. I have had it since 2012 and have never fired it. Send me a PM if you are interested and we will talk.

The 1009 Felpro overhangs the chamfer on the bore of a lot of BB Mopars especially late model ones. I don't know how they sell any of them.

Kevin

They probably fit great on 4.25 bore engines ...

I sold a local customer a set of Indy EZ heads to replace his mega-cracked ported 452 heads.
I had a couple of sets of "edelbrock" head gasket sets here, which at the time were the white Corteco .051 thick ones.
Blew a couple chunks out of them after only a couple of passes.
They didn't show any signs of being compressed at all.

There was no evidence of any other problems, and the motor had no issues with the steel shims that had been used with the iron heads.

I got him some Cometics, and it never bothered again.

IMO, those white Corteco gaskets fall into the "junk" catagory.
I wouldn't use them on anything after seeing them fail that quickly.

Is an .039 gasket safe with a zero-deck build? These seem to fit the bill for a .040 over 400 block (4.38 bore):
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1009/overview/make/chrysler

The 1009 gasket fits a 4.375" bore perfectly, but has NO room for error re: excessive chamfer at the top of the bore. I ran them w/o any issues for years at that bore size w/ my old ported OEM iron heads. If they hang over the edge, they're toast.

That's disappointing to hear... I had been told the only difference between the white ones and original orange DG gaskets was that the white coating disassembled easier. FWIW, the ones I have of both early & late style all measure the same uncompressed thickness of around .042".

The orange ones, which are all that I ever used w/ my Stage VI heads, left a good bit of the surface coating on both the head & deck surfaces, which was a PITA to clean off. But they didn't have any sealing or durability issues that I encountered.

I have a few sets of the orange DG-made ones still on hand simply because I had good results with them and bought some that I found in a vendor's remaining stock. They have a 4.41" bore and measure right about .040" compressed, and don't brinell the heads, either. 440Jim used them on some of his old builds, too, before going to Cometics.

I also bought two pairs of the discontinued white ones that Edelbrock sold under their gasket line because I thought they were the "improved" version. Sure doesn't sound like it after what you just said. Have never run the white ones myself, only the orange ones.

Per my comment above on the other thread that mentions the Fel-Pro 1009, NO.

From my experience, they're totally maxed out on bore size at 4.375". Even then, the bores need to not have any obvious chamfer at the top that allows that gasket to extend into combustion zone.

Thanks for the offer Pete, but I'm not interested in a new motor, especially not an RB. My 451 still should be just fine once I get this issue sorted out. And I its a really good fit for this car.

Sorry Brad, I missed your reference to the 1009. I'll keep looking at options.

I've had a few motors come through the shop that torched 1009's because of some bore overhang.
I simply won't use them on a 440/400 based engine anymore(haven't in years).
They are fine on 383/426 based motors though, as long as they are big enough to be out past the perimeter of the chamber.

For the most part, if it's a 440/400 based motor and I think it needs a better gasket than a Fel-Pro 8519, then it gets Cometics.

What do you consider the limit for the FP 8519PT? I have a set I use only for mockups, but never new if they're anything that could be used for my own builds. They strike me as kind of... marginal.

Without regards to the actual gasket in question itself/the bore size, in general a .039 thick gasket is good for a 0 deck build as far as piston to head clearance goes. Thats why everyone tries to build 0 deck and use a .039 gasket, it gives you good quench while still running a safe piston to head clearance.

Actually, I was going to loan it to you, not sell it. I do understand the fit issue because the RB motor takes up more room than the low deck. I don't have that problem in my project and could fit anything. We would have had to come up with an oiling system to fit your chassis, because my motor has an external pickup and pan for the truck chassis and that would not work for you. Good luck to you.

Using head gaskets that over hang the bores is a pretty obvious build mistake, and quick death if you are using a composite gasket ( verses MLS ). Never seen a bore that didn't have some chamfer. The problem is all chamfers aint the same ( pic ). Yes, those are factory chamfers on a .040 bore. Horrible! Went with MLS Cometics sized to the worse hole ( pic ) as the best solution. Something for the OP to look at during failure analysis. Still choking a bit on the "time to failure" thing.

Check it out with pressure tester then pull it down I would only fix the head gasket and then change oil a couple times in next 200 miles or so I have fixed many a blown head gasket and never pulled engine due to one unless rod is bent etc

Generally, street/strip motors that lean more towards the street side of things, up to around 550hp or so.
I've never had one fail on a motor I put together(none that I know of anyway).
I even put them on an 11.5:1 448 with EZ CNC 295 heads that made 675hp+.
Afaik they lived in that motor okay, but I don't think it saw that much use.
I wouldn't use them in that application nowadays, but I showed no fear at the time.

If you didn't drive the thing for a long time w/ the water and oil mixing, I'd pull the head and fix the gasket issue. Then change the oil, run it a while, change it again, etc.
It's easy enough to check for a bent rod w/ the motor in the car.

would just cranking the motor over with the starter be enough to bend a rod?

Most of suggestions are legit but this gentleman sounds like money is the issue? That's why I would do it the easy way and only take it apart if I had to beyond the head gasket. I also hate taking a car apart and not finishing it I have seen one to many fall threw the cracks and end up hanger queens or back yard I will get to it someday and rust away

Yes, you betcha I saw that happen while working in a service station on a customers car back in 1963, the owners Son squirted a small amount of water down the carb. with the air cleaner off while the onwer of the car was trying to start the then new 1962 Pontiac Grand Prix We had steamed clean the motor and it was not starting right away due to moisture in the distributor cap, it bent the 3rd rod back on the passenger side and seized the motor up

I can pull the pan in my car withe the motor still in the chassis, so I can still take a good look at the rod without pulling it. I'll lay a straight edge on the rod and measure deck clearances. I'm not a pro, but I'll be able to detect a bent rod.

Looked at the FP 8519PT; not comfortable with that. I can swing the cost of a decent gasket.

Wow, that's a super generous offer, Pete. I'd love to be able to show you what your motor can do, but I'll pass for a number of reasons. I don't want to break it.... I don't want to break my 8-3/4..... I don't want to change motors twice.

I'd really like to meet you someday, Pete. I'll PM you once I'm up and going again. Perhaps Pacific is about halfway between us???

So the autopsy is finally complete. I doesn't look like the head gasket was pinched into the chamber, but it was perilously close most everywhere, and ultimately, I think the bore of the gasket being too close to the chamber was the cause.
Pic #1: breech at the water jacket at roughly 4:00, #2 cylinder.
[img:left][/img]

Pic #2: deck surface shows the print of the gasket, and how close it was to the cylinder. I measured it at 4.40, bore on this 400 is 4.380. Too close! You can see the hot spot at about 5:00 here just below the jacket hole that failed.
[img:left][/img]

Pics 3 & 4: Plenty of water in the oil showed itself mostly in the valve covers and oil pan. The crankcase looks surprisingly clean, if not perfectly clean.
[img:left][/img]
[img:left][/img]

No other issues were found. Plan is to re-assemble with bigger bore, thinner crush head gaskets. Wish I could afford to do some headwork while it is apart, but I'm short on spending $$$ and just want to get it back together so I can get out at least a few more times this year.

Good luck with it... hope the assembly goes easy